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Thread: Idea for a new astronomical experiment

  1. #1 Idea for a new astronomical experiment 
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    Hello !

    I`ve seen a few hours ago an science documentation on the french/german TV channel arte , the field of intrest was mainly our understanding of time !

    there was showed that an "alian" whow is some light years away from the earth had the same meaning of the word "now" like we, as long there is no relative movement . But according to einsteins special theory of relativity :if he only moves with the velocity of an bysikel ,his now axis is screwed among an very little angel ,but over the distance of the lightyears ,it makes a difference of plus minus 200 years !

    (this was shown as an example for Einstein saying : "It seams that history , actual time and future are only illusions ,also very strong ones" )

    now my idea : starting an rocket with an telescope into space, and let it fly away from earth ! I heard that a space rocket can reach the velocity of a few thousend km /s . wich is roughly 100 dimensions higher then the bysikel, flying in space, let the telescope of the rocket take pictures backwards to its flying direction, witch means that the now axis is screwed in a way to the stars lightyears away, that the telescope sees the stars ca. 20000 (of this dimension) in the future , surly one had to wait at least so many years with the photo as the star is lightyears away from the rocket!

    The problem I see, is that are there not so many near stars , so that by an lifetime of milliards of years of an star ,it is very uncertain, that something interesting is observable - but maybee I`m wrong, and physicists who are common with astronomical fact, see an chance to see something interesting on the pictures of the far stars in there future .

    p.s. that the rocked also moves away from us and we from the rockets will not be so importent as distans are relativly small and the affect with the future is irrelevant , also surly one had to wait till the photos could be taken and a smaller time since they arive from the rocket at the earth .


    Last edited by C Feldmann; October 18th, 2012 at 08:25 PM. Reason: spelling ,commas
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Feldmann View Post
    Hello !

    I've seen a few hours ago an science documentation on the French/German TV channel art , the field of interest was mainly our understanding of time !

    there was showed that an "alien" who is some light years away from the earth had the same meaning of the word "now" like we, as long there is no relative movement . But according to Einsteins special theory of relativity :if he only moves with the velocity of an bicycle ,his now axis is screwed among an very little angel ,but over the distance of the lightyears ,it makes a difference of plus minus 200 years !

    (this was shown as an example for Einstein saying : "It seams that history , actual time and future are only illusions ,also very strong ones" )

    now my idea : starting an rocket with an telescope into space, and let it fly away from earth ! I heard that a space rocket can reach the velocity of a few thousand km /s . which is roughly 100 dimensions higher then the bicycle, flying in space, let the telescope of the rocket take pictures backwards to its flying direction, witch means that the now axis is screwed in a way to the stars lightyears away, that the telescope sees the stars ca. 20000 (of this dimension) in the future , surly one had to wait at least so many years with the photo as the star is lightyears away from the rocket!

    The problem I see, is that are there not so many near stars , so that by a lifetime of millions of years of an star ,it is very uncertain, that something interesting is observable - but maybe I'm wrong, and physicists who are common with astronomical fact, see an chance to see something interesting on the pictures of the far stars in there future .

    p.s. that the rocked also moves away from us and we from the rockets will not be so important as distance are relatively small and the affect with the future is irrelevant , also surly one had to wait till the photos could be taken and a smaller time since they arrive from the rocket at the earth .
    Not sure exactly what you are trying to say. But welcome to the forum. The nearest star to us is 4 light years away. Any light we see from it is always 4 years old and it only gets longer in the past as we view more distant stars. More than likely if we ever decide to go exploring to other stars, it will be a one way trip. Which means we had better have a very good idea that we can live there when we get there.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Feldmann View Post
    Hello !

    I`ve seen a few hours ago an science documentation on the french/german TV channel arte , the field of intrest was mainly our understanding of time !

    there was showed that an "alian" whow is some light years away from the earth had the same meaning of the word "now" like we, as long there is no relative movement . But according to einsteins special theory of relativity :if he only moves with the velocity of an bysikel ,his now axis is screwed among an very little angel ,but over the distance of the lightyears ,it makes a difference of plus minus 200 years !

    (this was shown as an example for Einstein saying : "It seams that history , actual time and future are only illusions ,also very strong ones" )

    now my idea : starting an rocket with an telescope into space, and let it fly away from earth ! I heard that a space rocket can reach the velocity of a few thousend km /s . wich is roughly 100 dimensions higher then the bysikel, flying in space, let the telescope of the rocket take pictures backwards to its flying direction, witch means that the now axis is screwed in a way to the stars lightyears away, that the telescope sees the stars ca. 20000 (of this dimension) in the future , surly one had to wait at least so many years with the photo as the star is lightyears away from the rocket!

    The problem I see, is that are there not so many near stars , so that by an lifetime of milliards of years of an star ,it is very uncertain, that something interesting is observable - but maybee I`m wrong, and physicists who are common with astronomical fact, see an chance to see something interesting on the pictures of the far stars in there future .

    p.s. that the rocked also moves away from us and we from the rockets will not be so importent as distans are relativly small and the affect with the future is irrelevant , also surly one had to wait till the photos could be taken and a smaller time since they arive from the rocket at the earth .

    The Relativity of Simultaneity (the effect you are talking about), would not change what the rocket would "see" or take photos of. It is the same light that reaches it at any instant as the light that would reach a camera at the same spot but not moving relative to the stars. What changes for the moving rocket is how much time has passed on by its clock since the light left the star and how much time has passed for the star.

    Look at it this way: The Earth orbits the Sun at some 30 km/s. Over the course of a year its movement towards or away from some stars changes by this much. If what you were suggesting were possible, we would be seeing these stars make large shifts in observed time over the duration of a year. As it is, we don't.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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  5. #4 I see my mistake ! 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by C Feldmann View Post
    Hello !

    I`ve seen a few hours ago an science documentation on the french/german TV channel arte , the field of intrest was mainly our understanding of time !

    there was showed that an "alian" whow is some light years away from the earth had the same meaning of the word "now" like we, as long there is no relative movement . But according to einsteins special theory of relativity :if he only moves with the velocity of an bysikel ,his now axis is screwed among an very little angel ,but over the distance of the lightyears ,it makes a difference of plus minus 200 years !

    (this was shown as an example for Einstein saying : "It seams that history , actual time and future are only illusions ,also very strong ones" )

    now my idea : starting an rocket with an telescope into space, and let it fly away from earth ! I heard that a space rocket can reach the velocity of a few thousend km /s . wich is roughly 100 dimensions higher then the bysikel, flying in space, let the telescope of the rocket take pictures backwards to its flying direction, witch means that the now axis is screwed in a way to the stars lightyears away, that the telescope sees the stars ca. 20000 (of this dimension) in the future , surly one had to wait at least so many years with the photo as the star is lightyears away from the rocket!

    The problem I see, is that are there not so many near stars , so that by an lifetime of milliards of years of an star ,it is very uncertain, that something interesting is observable - but maybee I`m wrong, and physicists who are common with astronomical fact, see an chance to see something interesting on the pictures of the far stars in there future .

    p.s. that the rocked also moves away from us and we from the rockets will not be so importent as distans are relativly small and the affect with the future is irrelevant , also surly one had to wait till the photos could be taken and a smaller time since they arive from the rocket at the earth .

    The Relativity of Simultaneity (the effect you are talking about), would not change what the rocket would "see" or take photos of. It is the same light that reaches it at any instant as the light that would reach a camera at the same spot but not moving relative to the stars. What changes for the moving rocket is how much time has passed on by its clock since the light left the star and how much time has passed for the star.

    Look at it this way: The Earth orbits the Sun at some 30 km/s. Over the course of a year its movement towards or away from some stars changes by this much. If what you were suggesting were possible, we would be seeing these stars make large shifts in observed time over the duration of a year. As it is, we don't.
    Surly I talked of the Relativity of Simultaneity , I only had not know the right translation for the german : "Versagen der Gleichzeitigkeit in der Entfernung "

    I must say that your arguments are very good and that I now agree with you !
    Thank you for this short leason !

    before posting my treat, I better would have remembert, what the austrien physicist pauli once said :

    "I have nothing against you thinking slow ,but I have very much against you publishing faster then you can think ! "

    an last remark : I was not totally naiv , I also thought about the eart moving around the sun, but believed ,it makes an different if the rocket has relativly to the star an state of simultaneity and stays in this state (flys with same direction and velocity )while the star emits light until it reached the rocked ,while the erth permanently changes its direction - but now I see that this could not be correct ,because the earth reaches periodically the same speed and direction, by comparing to different directions of the earth movement to the star there had to be differences if I had been right , clearly such differences never were observed!

    sorry also here in germany we have night or now nearly morning is breaking, I can`t stop thinking of this !
    If your argumentation is right , then the TV documentation could not show the alian as an example for einsteins statement that past and whole future ever exist and had existed !

    Now I think the problem with your argument of the moving earth is , that the earth moves on an orbit around the sun !

    And after one year is at the same positin , while in relativity theory space time distances are so importent !
    Especialy in simultainity theory Einstein himself shows the importens of distances by his example of an lightsourc placed in the middel of too observers to synchronaize there clocks !

    Relativly movement of an third observer led him sugest that something is wrong becourse the light has to move different long distances to reach the observers !

    In one year the earth goes around the sun , in this time no light from an star can reach the earth, and after that year the earth has the same time space distant to the star - while the rocked had flyd a long time !

    And acordingly to plannets in our solarsysthem the distances are to small to observe messerebel effects !
    Last edited by C Feldmann; October 19th, 2012 at 12:03 AM. Reason: longer repley and (I hope) in an better english
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Feldmann View Post
    Surly I talked of the Relativity of Simultaneity , I only had not know the right translation for the german : "Versagen der Gleichzeitigkeit in der Entfernung "
    Yes, that is the correct translation.

    As for the rest, I do not quite understand your line of thought. Why do you think the telescope would see the stars "in the future" ? The light originating from the far-away stars propagates at a finite speed, so what the telescope sees is actually an image of what the stars looked like in the past, relative to the telescope's own frame of reference. This holds true for all inertial observers, so the relative velocity of the telescope is irrelevant - it can never see into the future.
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  7. #6 surly the rocked sees the star in his past , but... 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by C Feldmann View Post
    Surly I talked of the Relativity of Simultaneity , I only had not know the right translation for the german : "Versagen der Gleichzeitigkeit in der Entfernung "
    Yes, that is the correct translation.

    As for the rest, I do not quite understand your line of thought. Why do you think the telescope would see the stars "in the future" ? The light originating from the far-away stars propagates at a finite speed, so what the telescope sees is actually an image of what the stars looked like in the past, relative to the telescope's own frame of reference. This holds true for all inertial observers, so the relative velocity of the telescope is irrelevant - it can never see into the future.

    Hello !

    .....his past could be our (we on earth) future !

    the reason : because of its motion through space time , the "now axis" perpendicular to this motion is slightly screwed - in the obove mentionet TV documentation , this leads this axis intersect the time axis of the lightyears away star 200 years in the future , while the "alian" only drives with the velocity of a bicycle driver !

    this means after 4 years when the light of the star reacces the rocket , the rocket sees the star , how we would see it in 196 years.

    This is for a bicycle velocity for a real rocket moving would be much faster .

    or maybe let me ecplain it this way , according to the theory of simultaneity ,the moving alien and also the rocket have because of there motion ,immediately a state, where they have the same "moment", which the star would have, seen from the earth ,many years later .while waiting to the time point relative to rocket or alien when the light of the star send out in or after this moment reached them, and then send this photos to earth we should could see on the pictures what we on earth only could see years later -or not ??????
    Last edited by C Feldmann; October 20th, 2012 at 02:02 PM.
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  8. #7 perhaps it is not common to reply onethelf-but perhaps I have found my mistake ! 
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    Hello !
    the time I studied physics is nearly 20 years over , I now only have a somehow "popular knowledge of physics" and are not able to calculate the things for my self -so I believed what I see on TV ,but perhaps the bicycle riding alian in the documentation ,neads to be much more then 200 lightyears away from us, to "live " at the same moment we will have on earth in 200 jears !

    I really don`t know about how much lightyears they spoke , and remembering the space time diagrams of relativity theory from my time at the university of Bielefeld I now believe that the alien must not be in the total futor or total past of us , but in the space time region called : elsewhere .

    And the same would be for all observers with velocitys smaller then light - and because of this, my experiment could not work .
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  9. #8 a little rest hope for my experiment 
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Feldmann View Post
    Hello !
    the time I studied physics is nearly 20 years over , I now only have a somehow "popular knowledge of physics" and are not able to calculate the things for my self -so I believed what I see on TV ,but perhaps the bicycle riding alian in the documentation ,neads to be much more then 200 lightyears away from us, to "live " at the same moment we will have on earth in 200 jears !

    I really don`t know about how much lightyears they spoke , and remembering the space time diagrams of relativity theory from my time at the university of Bielefeld I now believe that the alien must not be in the total futor or total past of us , but in the space time region called : elsewhere .

    And the same would be for all observers with velocitys smaller then light - and because of this, my experiment could not work .

    Hello again !

    It seems to me clear now, that it is not possible to watch the star in his future - but (with the experiment I posted), perhaps in a past witch is not so far away, then the past of the star, we see on earth ,by getting at the same time the photos of him, taken by the rocket !

    perhaps yes , perhaps no , to answer this ,you will to have to know the maximal velocity a space rocket can reach , calculate the time the rocket must fly to get light from a far enough star, and also calculate the effect, that the rocket is then also far away from the earth ,so that the radio signal ,which has the photo information, needs his time to arrive on earth - perhaps then we see for an example the past of a star 20 years ago, on the photo ,while our telescops on earth show how he looks 20+x years ago.

    But as I said early for myself I`m are not able to do this calculation
    Last edited by C Feldmann; October 20th, 2012 at 07:26 PM.
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  10. #9  
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    Hello !

    I see now that my suggestions "are all for nothing "

    also the last , because the moderator Janus is right with his example of the earth ,sourrounding the sun with 30000 km/s !
    Clearly perhaps mention that the earth moves away from a star , here on earth we couldn`t see the light emitted from him in this moment of simultaneity , and after the earth finished his movement round the sun ,,this light wouldn`t have arrived here , but let this moment lay 10 years in the future of the star, then we would see the perhaps 1000 light years away star how ever ,like he looks before 990 jears and after half an year the direction of the earth relative to the star would have changed into the opposite, it then would have an moment of simultaneity that now lays 10 years in the past of the star and we would see how he has looked before 1010 years . and how Janus writes the time effects would be even greater if I would had been right .

    So if the idea of my rocket experiment were right , these effects -like Janus already told - would be already viserable because of the movement of the earth , also the earth moves in an orbit around the sun and not on a straight line - I now see that this is unimportent ! (and promise not to post anything else to this treat of mine !
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