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Thread: Infinite electricity

  1. #1 Infinite electricity 
    Forum Freshman Robinol's Avatar
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    The idea is to suspend a coil from a wire inside an airtight container. Place a magnet on the bottom of the setup. When the coil starts swinging,the magnetic flux will keep on changing which will induce an emf which can be taken out through the wire.
    My question is- WILL THIS WORK???


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  3. #2  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    Why would the coil start swinging?


    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  4. #3  
    Life-Size Nanoputian Flick Montana's Avatar
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    Trying to supply the world with an endless source of power through perpetual motion? Good luck.
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    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  5. #4  
    Forum Ph.D.
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    The simple answer is-NO
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  6. #5  
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    agreed the answer is no.
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  7. #6  
    The Enchanter westwind's Avatar
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    For fizzlooney. The answer is yes. Yes for finding a need. Yes for finding a bottle. ( Size is important ), Yes for finding the right type of wire with multiple coils and twists and coated with magnetic particles, polarised, Yes to placing the magnet over the bottle without clearance, Yes to the bottle being filled with mercury, yes to heating the Assembly in a vacuum, and yes to fitting an ordinary torch globe of low wattage, one wire in the mercury and one to the outside magnet. Yes to this experiment. Yes, this is a Science Forum. Yes this is where Members should indulge themselves by having a go and see what happens. And, finally, Yes to recording every detail of the experiement. westwind.
    Words words words, were it better I caught your tears, and washed my face in them, and felt their sting. - westwind
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  8. #7  
    Comet Dust Collector Moderator
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    If you are heating it, all you are doing is harvesting the energy you are putting in. In addition, any energy you extract from the system will stop the pendulum. So the answer is still No.

    Westwind, if you don't know what you are talking about, do not reply in the physics forum.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinol View Post
    The idea is to suspend a coil from a wire inside an airtight container. Place a magnet on the bottom of the setup. When the coil starts swinging,the magnetic flux will keep on changing which will induce an emf which can be taken out through the wire.
    My question is- WILL THIS WORK???
    For a proper definition of "this," it will work. Just don't expect infinite electricity unless you supply infinite mechanical energy.

    The fatal flaw in your setup is that you have neglected not only what starts the coil swinging, but what keeps it swinging. All that takes energy. The electrical energy you get out of the arrangement will always be less than the mechanical energy you put into it.

    If you wave a magnet near a coil, the magnet will swing more or less freely if the coil is left unconnected to anything (so that no current flows through the coil). But once you try to extract energy from the coil, the current that then flows through the coil's windings will generate its own magnetic field. That field opposes the swinging of the magnet. Keeping the magnet swinging requires the input of mechanical energy. It's a classic example of "no free lunch" in action.

    There's a very important theorem, due to Noether, that tells us that energy conservation is a consequence of deep symmetries in the laws of nature (the theorem is often called her First Theorem, but not all textbooks follow this convention). Consequences of any relevant asymmetries would've shown up in other experiments, so we can say that we have, essentially, a proof of energy conservation (this is a bit of an oversimplification and exaggeration, but it captures the spirit). Noether's theorem thus saves us from wasting time looking for some clever arrangement of pendulums, magnets, coils, steam, wheels, etc. We know that no amount of cleverness will produce perpetual motion.

    And yes, ignore westwind. His post is complete and utter nonsense.
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by tk421 View Post

    For a proper definition of "this," it will work. Just don't expect infinite electricity unless you supply infinite mechanical energy.

    The fatal flaw in your setup is that you have neglected not only what starts the coil swinging, but what keeps it swinging. All that takes energy. The electrical energy you get out of the arrangement will always be less than the mechanical energy you put into it.

    If you wave a magnet near a coil, the magnet will swing more or less freely if the coil is left unconnected to anything (so that no current flows through the coil). But once you try to extract energy from the coil, the current that then flows through the coil's windings will generate its own magnetic field. That field opposes the swinging of the magnet. Keeping the magnet swinging requires the input of mechanical energy. It's a classic example of "no free lunch" in action.

    There's a very important theorem, due to Noether, that tells us that energy conservation is a consequence of deep symmetries in the laws of nature (the theorem is often called her First Theorem, but not all textbooks follow this convention). Consequences of any relevant asymmetries would've shown up in other experiments, so we can say that we have, essentially, a proof of energy conservation (this is a bit of an oversimplification and exaggeration, but it captures the spirit). Noether's theorem thus saves us from wasting time looking for some clever arrangement of pendulums, magnets, coils, steam, wheels, etc. We know that no amount of cleverness will produce perpetual motion.
    I agree with all of the above. It is simply just impossible to have infinite energy(in form of electricity in this instance), as to do so you would have to CREATE energy which is impossible as energy is nor created nor destroyed, it simple just takes different forms. The energy in the universe is finite, so are the forms of energy..........
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinol View Post
    The idea is to suspend a coil from a wire inside an airtight container. Place a magnet on the bottom of the setup. When the coil starts swinging,the magnetic flux will keep on changing which will induce an emf which can be taken out through the wire.
    My question is- WILL THIS WORK???
    I have already explained in my last post that you cannot have infinite energy, now I shall try to explain why your design shall not work(in accordance with my previous explanation).

    Now I believe that you believe that the magnet shall provide the magnetic field for ever, which is a NO from me. Magnets don't keep working for ever, they lose their magnetism ( as magnetism is a form of energy which you here are converting to electricity). So in your setup, over a period of time, the magnet shall lose its magnetism, which shall eventually stop your setup from producing any electricity.

    I am open for correction as I don't claim to be a physics professor. I am just a student who seeks knowledge....
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    Let me provide perhaps a simpler and more fundamental explanation why it wouldn't work.Say you have a perfect vacuum (no air resistance), all your mechanical joints are smooth (completely zero friction), and there are no energy losses AT ALL, and that your magnetic material is perfect with no hysteresis, and no loss of energy on magnetisation.as the flux through the magnet changes, an e.m.f will be produced exactly as you say, in proportion to the rate of change of flux. This is called faraday's law. However, you neglect to realise the difference between e.m.f and "electricity" by which I assume you mean electrical power. To get any power transfer out of this device, you will have to connect it to some kind of load (even if that load is for example charging a battery or other storage means). The impedance of this load will cause a current to flow. The current flowing through the wire (and the magnetic components) will cause a magnetic field and, according to Faraday's and Lenz's laws produce an e.m.f in the opposite sense to that which is caused by the original coil. It is this force which will provide the slowing mechanism to extrace kinetic energy from the coil, i.e. it is why you cannot get perpetual motion in this case.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheNorthStar View Post
    Now I believe that you believe that the magnet shall provide the magnetic field for ever, which is a NO from me. Magnets don't keep working for ever, they lose their magnetism ( as magnetism is a form of energy which you here are converting to electricity). So in your setup, over a period of time, the magnet shall lose its magnetism, which shall eventually stop your setup from producing any electricity.

    I am open for correction as I don't claim to be a physics professor. I am just a student who seeks knowledge....
    Although magnets do weaken over time, that is not the fundamental limitation. Even if I could obtain truly permanent magnets, the scheme would not work. I explained why in my previous post: The magnet will feel a "viscous" drag induced by the coil whenever current flows through the latter (which is whenever you're trying to get energy out of the system). Thus whatever is moving the magnet will have to provide an input of energy to keep the magnet moving. Without that additional input, the magnet will stop moving.

    All that occurs even if the magnet never loses its magnetism.

    Weatherhead's post just preceding this one explains it thoroughly.

    There are many science museums/centers around the world that have a people-powered generator. You turn a crank or pedal a bicycle-like affair to generate juice. As soon as a light bulb or other load is connected up, you find that cranking or pedaling gets a lot harder, even though there's "nothing" connecting the magnet to the coil.

    You can't beat Murphy.
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