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Thread: New Clean and Renewable Electrical Power Generation Idea

  1. #1 New Clean and Renewable Electrical Power Generation Idea 
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    http://www.energytower.org


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  3. #2  
    Jon
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    Uh oh... it's another perpetual motion machine. Something tells me this will not stay out of the pseudoscience forum for long. :?




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    :-)
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  4. #3  
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    It does not look like PM to me as there is external energy fed in (rising air currents) The theory breaks down though because the winds at the higher level blowing across the top of the chimney will always mean air is pulled up! {that's how termite hills are ventilated} If things worked as the article suggests then all the cold (-50Deg c) air at 50,000 feet would fall to the ground - (cold air sinks yes BUT with the atmosphere there are other factors (density being one of them) the air at 50kft is less dense, therefore more bouyant so it does not fall.

    Since therefore the only energy in it is draft/wind it would be more efficient to use a simple wind turbine (as most do) since it is simpler,cheaper, far more efficient, and far less risk of pollution to the environment. I think the article is a wind-up, it has no merit at all, unless you are a borg fan. :wink:
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  5. #4 1st and 2nd law 
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    You are missing some of the basic concepts and imagining the tower too tall.

    Heat moves from hot to cold with force and you can harvest some of the energy while that is happening. In both heat exchangers (air and earth), heat is always moving from warmer to colder and there is always a positive net.

    Conservation of Energy means that if you design the system to use the heat from friction in the generators and compressors, it becomes very efficient.
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  6. #5  
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    I am not going to argue with you. I will point out that I have considered it and from an engineering point and it is not as efficient as standard wind turbines. Taking everthing into account as I did - pollution, complexity, cost, maintainability. As an Engineer who has designed many systems I conclude it is not worth while. With the caveat that insufficient data has been made available.

    Usually an engineer would have shown the mathematics involved -
    together with energy conversion calculations, estimated effiiciency, cost per kwh vs other sources etc etc . There is none here so my own calculations can only be rule of thumb. It is impossible to argue with such a case where the maths has been witheld, it would require a study, IF that is the case being made then it cannot be commented upon until such a study has been done. If you have superior knowledge I would be delighted to learn from you.

    P.S when you say I am imagining the tower too tall could you tell me where I gave any indication of size? - If you are referring to my reference to 50K ft that was to illustrate there is a layer of COLD air above a layer of HOT air (ie although the hot should be at the top, the cold cannot sink below the hot because it is lighter.
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  7. #6 reliability 
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    The concept is not about whether putting a wind turbine up in the wind is more efficient. The concept is about reliability. There is no argument that a simple wind turbine is more efficient if there is natural wind.

    What is the power output of a simple wind turbine on a calm day?
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  8. #7 Re: reliability 
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohar
    The concept is not about whether putting a wind turbine up in the wind is more efficient. The concept is about reliability. There is no argument that a simple wind turbine is more efficient if there is natural wind.

    What is the power output of a simple wind turbine on a calm day?
    At this Precise moment in time My 2 Metre Dia Generator is producing about 80Watts - there is NO sign of leaves moving at or near ground I conclude the weather is calm. The generator axle is 46 feet above the ground.

    Location North of Portsmouth UK Wind direction South East.
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  9. #8 Thanks 
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    Thanks for taking the time to look at the idea.

    The project description at the home page explains that the project intent is to come up with new and feasible ideas to replace fossil fuels in a not-for-profit manner.

    If you have any new ideas or improvements to the concepts presented that you are willing to share, please forward them to the contact information at http://www.energytower.org

    Thanks again for your input.
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  10. #9  
    Cooking Something Good MacGyver1968's Avatar
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    Billco..you have a windmill generator? COOL! It has always been one of my dreams to produce my own power and get off the grid. I envisioned using a combo of solar panels, windmills, and water wheels to charge old forklift batteries. (they have great ampacity) Then use inverters to convert it to household current. I wanted to start small...only powering a few dedicated circuits first, but then over time, powering my whole house with them. I have read about some people who actually produce surplus power...their electricity meters run in reverse! and they GET a check from the power company, instead of sending one!
    If you don't mind, I'd really like to hear more about your system.
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  11. #10 Re: 1st and 2nd law 
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohar
    You are missing some of the basic concepts and imagining the tower too tall.

    Heat moves from hot to cold with force and you can harvest some of the energy while that is happening. In both heat exchangers (air and earth), heat is always moving from warmer to colder and there is always a positive net.

    Conservation of Energy means that if you design the system to use the heat from friction in the generators and compressors, it becomes very efficient.

    how tall is too tall? any house with a chimney uses air blowing over the chimney to draw smoke from fire and they can be pretty low and that has nothing to do with the rising heat from a fire as smoke cartriges with little or negligiable heat are also drawn in the same way
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  12. #11 more related information 
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    For more information, the water spray down draft tower has a lot of work done on the calculations and feasibility. Dan Zaslavsky or here.

    The water spray tower is a really good idea, but it won't work in moderate or sub-zero climates and the cost of electrical transportation over long distances makes it less than universal.

    The text at http://www.energytower.org mentions orientating the intake/output, but the drawings leave it out. The vacuum effect of blowing wind over a tube doesn't come into play because the idea is to either rotate the intake/outlet to prevailing winds or to use a circular louvered design (like a whirly roof vent). At the very least it will function as a really expensive wind turbine :wink:, whether the air is going up or down the tower.
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  13. #12 Re: more related information 
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    Quote Originally Posted by rohar
    For more information, the water spray down draft tower has a lot of work done on the calculations and feasibility. Dan Zaslavsky or here.

    The water spray tower is a really good idea, but it won't work in moderate or sub-zero climates and the cost of electrical transportation over long distances makes it less than universal.

    The text at http://www.energytower.org mentions orientating the intake/output, but the drawings leave it out. The vacuum effect of blowing wind over a tube doesn't come into play because the idea is to either rotate the intake/outlet to prevailing winds or to use a circular louvered design (like a whirly roof vent). At the very least it will function as a really expensive wind turbine :wink:, whether the air is going up or down the tower.

    but by putting the whirly roof vent on's not going to do much for the design and as youve said it'll just be an expensive horizontal wind turbine. and that sort of wind turbine isn't the most efficient of horizontal turbines as it is.

    i cant think at the moment who invented the first horizontal one, which went back to windmill times and has just made a comeback with a modern design.

    it was basically 4 sails mounted vertically on a horizontal base years ago but is now two vertical blades like this

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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGyver1968
    Billco..you have a windmill generator? COOL! It has always been one of my dreams to produce my own power and get off the grid. I envisioned using a combo of solar panels, windmills, and water wheels to charge old forklift batteries. (they have great ampacity) Then use inverters to convert it to household current. I wanted to start small...only powering a few dedicated circuits first, but then over time, powering my whole house with them. I have read about some people who actually produce surplus power...their electricity meters run in reverse! and they GET a check from the power company, instead of sending one!
    If you don't mind, I'd really like to hear more about your system.
    It is a salvaged repaired 1.85Metre turbine found rotting away on a dump - I paid £20-00 for it and fixed it up - The ouput is a bit crappy as the sliprings are slightly damaged - I charge up 4 old car batteries and a largs box of NICADS - It Runs the Night Lights, All the kit in the garage, several battery chargers for torches and all portable equipment - all the smoke alarms - and radios. I have some Solar panels as well but only about 12 Watts worth. In all it probably runs around 12% of the juice we use If we have a power cut it will keep the fridge, central heating punp and emergency lights running for about 24 hours (using up convertors)
    So nothing grand but every litle helps. Infact probably 75% of the juice it generates is 'dumped' once the batteries are full.



    Rohar,

    To me the absence of figures, dimensions and other critical data renders the example beyond comment as it stands.

    I could draw you a Beautiful picture of my 'Baber engine' which is capable of propelling a spacecraft to the moon in about 7 hours using just 60 Kilos of fuel - however I will not add any 'real' detail to it But I can give a very credible explanation as to how it works!

    It simply uses a small nuclear generator to produce 16.7 Billion volts which is then applied to a stream of hydrogen and xenon gas in a confined space, the resultant super heating causes the gas to expand faster than any normal propellant can burn and is directed through a nozzle at rates way beyond current rocket exhaust expulsion rates.
    It's rather like the way lightning superheats the air to such an extent that it expands faster than the speed of sound, causing the sonic boom we all call thunder.

    Sounds good But it's all crap I I just made it up.
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  15. #14 Again, not about natural wind 
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    Hi, again thanks for all of the interest.

    The intent of this project is to create a location independent and reliable power source. There is a fairly lengthy explanation of the issues with wind farms and some of the other passive solar methods here:
    http://www.energytower.org

    I'll explain a few of the points a bit more:
    1. Wind farms work well in some geographic locations, but they are supplemental or secondary power sources at best. They have numerous other environmental issues, but the main problem with natural wind is that it is inconsistent and a power storage system needs to be implemented for anything that isn't secondary generation. Wind Farms are relatively cheap to build, but their $/kw is still not going to compete with coal. They only work well in some locations and electrical transportation is expensive.

    2. A wind turbine is a single part heat engine. It passively converts solar energy into electrical energy from mechanical convection caused by solar heating. It is still a type of heat engine and it generates some power, but it does nothing with the heat energy in the warm air moving through it.

    2. This "bi-directional energy tower" is a multipart complimentary heat engine system. During the "warm air" cycle it removes the heat from the air with a "low boiling point fluid" steam engine and uses the ground for cooling and storing the heat. The "cooled" air in the tower is denser than the surrounding air making it "heavier" and it falls down the tower driving a turbine. Both the wind turbine and the "low boiling point fluid" steam engine generate power. Orienting the intake/output to prevailing winds is probably a good idea, but it is mostly irrelevant in this system.

    When the air is colder than the ground the system reverses.

    The point is that this is a complimentary system (the more air that moves, the more heat is pumped and vice-versa). A lot of people have difficulty understanding that only a portion of the energy output is the wind turbine. This is probably due to a lot of exposure to refrigerators and air conditioners which are doing the opposite (they move heat from a cold area to a warmer one and require energy). This system is always moving heat from warmer to colder.
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