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Thread: Phonons: particle wave duality, relativity as a wave phenomenon

  1. #1 Phonons: particle wave duality, relativity as a wave phenomenon 
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    In solid state physics there is a concept called Phonons, which are vibrations in a solid (such as a solid crystal).

    These are described as "quantized sound waves". They have particle-like qualities (similar to Bosons), and show the same particle/wave duality as real particles do - except of course in this case, these are 100% waves. They are even described using QM formulas. I also find it interesting that the quantization of these sound particles even shows when the crystal lattice is not discrete.

    Phonon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    Why do I bring this up?

    Because I recently read a book called "Classical Wave Theory of Matter" at Verum Versa, and the concept there is that all of QM and relativity can be derived by this simple premise: that space is an "elastic solid" and that light/matter are vibrations in it (pure waves). Robert Close derives a special relativity and the Dirac equation (and more) based on that (relativity applies to any kind of wave actually - so it applies to Phonons as well).

    Illustrative example of how SR can be derived from waves can be found here:
    Underwater Relativity

    I could find no contradiction with any experiment (it is consistent with the null result of MM, for instance), or with any mathematical formula (it uses the exact same mathematics - so it is also consisten with the tensor of GR, for instance ).

    I would very much like to discuss the book with someone who is interested!

    Chantal


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    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    It certainly looks interesting and rings close to my own pet idea (though mine is nothing more than naive speculation). There are a few members whom I am sure would enjoy discussing this with you. I am looking forward to it.


    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
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    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
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    I agree with Kalster in that it is an interesting idea, and shares many commonalities with the various models of Superfluid Vacua.
    Only thing is - what are the basic constituents of that elastic solid ? What is it made of ?
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    The only thing we can say for sure is that it is nothing "material" as we know it (per definition). We might as well just call it "space" or the "fabric of space" or similar.
    But we can speculate about some "physical properties of this ... space, such as permeability, c, density, bulk modulus, shear modulus etc (as if it were a solid).
    For instance from Wikipedia on the velocity of elastic waves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P-wave

    I
    would love to hear from people in solid state physics what the properties of such as solid are and how they are determined.
    What we do know is c, so that might be a start. So what would be the bulk modulus/shear modulus? And what would that mean in terms of density?

    From a book on the LIGO experiment I read that space would have to be about 10^30 times more solid than steel (but there was no real explanation of how this was calculated) (I thought that was cool :-).

    Kalster: do you have a link to your idea?

    Cheers,
    Chantal
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    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    Kalster: do you have a link to your idea?
    Not at the moment. I have tried various wild speculations in the past, but they are little more than children's fantasies. I might attempt to re-open it at some point, though a few immediate red flags will go up related to the pseudo check list, i.e. I need someone with a math background to see if it makes sense mathematically. While it is fun to think about it, I have no intention to just throw out one fantasy after another without actually investigating if it even makes sense. I don't presume to have any real expertise, so will not take on an authoritative air. Anyway, that's enough from me on that.



    On this idea presented in your OP, is there any mention of solitons or standing waves?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  7. #6  
    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    I might attempt to re-open it at some point, though a few immediate red flags will go up related to the pseudo check list, i.e. I need someone with a math background to see if it makes sense mathematically.
    Why don't you put it up on a thread under "New Hypothesis", and I will be happy to take a look it at from a mathematical side, so far as I am able to ( not that I am an expert, of course ).
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    Yes, the author writes about solitons and standing waves in great detail.

    For instance the paper on "Exact Description of Rotational Waves in an Elastic Solid" (published in Adv. Apl. Clifford Alebras)
    http://www.classicalmatter.org/RotationWaves.pdf

    Another paper published in foundations of physics entitled:Torsion Waves in Three Dimensions: Quantum Mechanics with a Twist
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/fekcuve64dcr365t/fulltext.pdf

    They are also in the book (rewritten, but all the formulas etc are there as well)

    For those who would just want to read the part on special relativity, there is a separate much shorter document on that:
    http://www.classicalmatter.org/Class...Relativity.doc
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  9. #8  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
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    @ Markus: Thanks, I might do that during the week. Prepare to be underwhelmed though.

    @ Chantel: Lots of reading to be done there, thanks.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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