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Thread: Does antimatter really go backwards through time?

  1. #1 Does antimatter really go backwards through time? 
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    Or is that just silliness?

    Would the laws of entropy actually go backwards? Would heated gases become increasingly organized instead of decreasingly organized.

    ...... I have to admit I really doubt they would, but I feel like asking just in case someone knows of a source that says otherwise.


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  3. #2  
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    Thanks. I was thinking it was, but I couldn't find any sources that discussed the issue. So, basically an antimatter universe would look similar to our own, except it would be right handed instead of left handed. (Or maybe I have that backwards.)


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    Kojax - I'm not an expert, but I think you may be misinterpreting what is said about antimatter. It's not that it 'goes back in time.' Instead, the point being conveyed is that it is identical to it's matter counterpart in every conceivable way EXCEPT the time direction.

    So... photon has quantity x for mass, y for charge, z for spin, and b for time.
    Antiphoton counterpart also has quantity x for mass, y for charge, z for spin, but instead has -b (negative b) for time.

    Same in every way, except time direction when viewed on the list of characteristics.

    A particle going forward in time is indistinguishable from it's antiparticle partner going backward in time. Does that mean antiparticles travel back in time? I really don't think so, but IINM my point is that you're misreading what is being said about them.
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  5. #4 Macroscopic time is just a statistical emergence. 
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    Here you are prisonners of the common believing that our macroscopic time - where the entropy dwells - and the individual times of the quantons - or at least their individual precursors of time - are the same thing. And they are not.

    Our macroscopic time is too big to enter in the atomic nuclei. Atomic nuclei do not age. An U235 nucleus has now the same probability to disintegrate in the next hour, than five milliards years ago.

    Of course, according to the Dirac wave equation of the electron, every electron has two components forward in time, and two components backwards in time. Some of their results are the Zitterbewegung discovered by Erwin Schrödinger in 1930, and the Compton diffusion - see below at http://www.thescienceforum.com/Compt...ent-23279t.php and at http://deonto-ethics.org/mediawiki/i...Zitterbewegung.

    In interferences experiments, as those of the Aharanov-Bohm type, a quanton - say a photon or an electron - converges on a tiny absorber, after passing through several large paths simultaneously. The constraint is just arriving in phase on the absorber, just as Pierre de Fermat, Thomas Young and Augustin Fresnel had explained the laws od the coherent phases.

    Simply, the convergence on the absorber cannot be explained only by the orthochrone components. The retrochrone components are unavoidable.

    Our macroscopic time emerges from the decoherence of milliards of milliards of milliards ... of quantic reactions. And our macroscopic space too.
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  6. #5 Re: Does antimatter really go backwards through time? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Or is that just silliness?
    It's just sillyness. Sadly my hero Richard Feynman entertained it, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipar...interpretation

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Would the laws of entropy actually go backwards? Would heated gases become increasingly organized instead of decreasingly organized.

    ...... I have to admit I really doubt they would, but I feel like asking just in case someone knows of a source that says otherwise.
    Nope. All this time travel stuff is garbage. The electron has spin angular momentum and magnetic dipole moment. You can create it out of a light wave via electron-positron pair production, you can diffract it, you can alter electron interference via the "electron optics" Ehrenberg/Siday Aharonov-Bohm effect. So it isn't a point particle like they say. The reversal of the time parameter is just reversing the arrowheads on this electron-model depiction below.

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  7. #6 Re: Does antimatter really go backwards through time? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farsight
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Or is that just silliness?
    It's just sillyness. Sadly my hero Richard Feynman entertained it, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipar...interpretation
    Wrong crank. You malign Feynman, as usual based on lack of understanding of physics.

    CPT symmetry results in CP reversal (going from a particle to the antiparticle in terms of charge and chiralty) requiring a T reversal. This is a useful symmetry for performing perturbation calculations. It is not some fantasy about a real particle really "going back in time", as Feynman, but not Farsight, would understand.

    Folks, please ignore Farsight. He is a well-known British internet crank, complete with a self-published book "revising" general relativity and a guest appearances on a British conspiracy TV show. He doesn't know what he is talking about.
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  8. #7  
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    Folks, please ignore DrRocket. He's an abusive quack who only chimes in to spoil physics discussions. Particularly when it looks likes somebody is actually answering a question.

    But note that he did mention chirality. When you reverse the arrowheads on the picture above, you reverse the chirality.

    Understand this, then groan at the electron-positron annihilation depiction here.
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farsight
    Folks, please ignore DrRocket. He's an abusive quack who only chimes in to spoil physics discussions. Particularly when it looks likes somebody is actually answering a question.

    But note that he did mention chirality. When you reverse the arrowheads on the picture above, you reverse the chirality.
    Nice try crank, but you have been outed.
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    Nice try quack, but I'm the one talking physics here. Hence you show up.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farsight
    Nice try quack, but I'm the one talking physics here. Hence you show up.
    No, you don't talk physics. You talk pseudoscience and nonsense. Your "theories" have been debunked all over the internet. Your (self published) "book" is a laughing stock.

    What you do is latch onto a piece of exotica, like pair production, or in this thread a representation of an antiparticle in Feynman diagrams, take it out of context and use it in impossible ways to "prove" statements that are utter nonsense.

    You don't even have the capability to understand physics, as evidenced by your unwillingness to ever engage in any discussion involving serious mathematics. You have never done any science, only postured in open forums, in books that no legitimate publisher would touch, and on conspiracy television. Never have your ideas stood up to inquiry by scientists, hence you have fled from many an internet forum. Apparently no new venues are open to you so you persevere here to the detriment of all.

    Unfortunately you remain a menace to young folks who are interested in learning real science.
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  12. #11  
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    I love it when cranks accuse a bona-fide scientist of not allowing scientific discussion!
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    i'm torn, finding myself between two Internet Tough Guys with competing claims. but i do know that flipping chirality can produce an effect which does flip the fourth dimension relative to an individual particle. sure, it's not "Time Travel" in some Dr Who way, but i gotta admit, i can't help but see that as being exceptionally significant (despite the conventional wisdom of scientific consensus).

    if only there were some place where you could talk about crazy possibilities of science without it resorting to a schoolyard name-calling spat.
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  14. #13 Re: Does antimatter really go backwards through time? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket

    CPT symmetry results in CP reversal (going from a particle to the antiparticle in terms of charge and chiralty) requiring a T reversal. This is a useful symmetry for performing perturbation calculations. It is not some fantasy about a real particle really "going back in time", as Feynman, but not Farsight, would understand.
    Ok. So it's not some fantasy about an object actually traveling back in time, in the classic Orwellian sense. Does it still mean that the sequence of events is reversed?

    Would a radioactive anti-atom still decay over time, or would it appear to un-decay (or whatever the proper term is for decaying backwards) from our perspective? Would it appear to be absorbing radiation and ionized particles, etc, instead of emitting them?
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  15. #14 Re: Does antimatter really go backwards through time? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Would a radioactive anti-atom still decay over time, or would it appear to un-decay (or whatever the proper term is for decaying backwards) from our perspective? Would it appear to be absorbing radiation and ionized particles, etc, instead of emitting them?
    I don't thnk that any ant-atoms beyond hydrogen have been observed experimentally (not positive). Decay of anti-atoms may be slightly different from the normal counterparts due to violation of CP symmetry, but with that caveat would be about like normal matter with "anti" in front of decay products. You would need to talk to a heavy duty particle guy for details. This is fairly subtle stuff.
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  16. #15  
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    Bear in mind that this is my interpretation.

    A particle has CP reversal from its antiparticle in our model. Notice that by also reversing T, we can treat an antiparticle exactly as if it were a particle. In effect a CP reversed antiparticle can be treated mathematically in the model as if it were a time reversed particle.
    This in no way means that the anti particle is a particle travelling backwards in time.
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  17. #16 Re: Does antimatter really go backwards through time? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Would a radioactive anti-atom still decay over time
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    ...or would it appear to un-decay (or whatever the proper term is for decaying backwards) from our perspective? Would it appear to be absorbing radiation and ionized particles, etc, instead of emitting them?
    No. Positronium decays. Antihydrogen has been around for 15 years. There's none of that science fiction stuff.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek
    I love it when cranks accuse a bona-fide scientist of not allowing scientific discussion!
    Dr Rocket isn't a scientist. He's a mathematician. See http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=261937 . And notice that he doesn't actually respond to the OP, but instead shows up to sneer at the people who do and derail threads.
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  19. #18  
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    There is extremely simple "gedankenexperiment" about understanding reason-result chain directions - what if we make CPT transformation of free electron laser?
    I know that there is separate thread about it, but I would really like to understand this looking extremely simple situation:

    Original situation:
    Electrons enforced to go on sinusoidal path stimulates photon production and these photons stimulate target to excite from ground into excited state.
    After CPT symmetry:
    Excited target deexcitate to the ground state and produced photons are stimulated by positron enforced to go on sinusoidal path.

    So let say this target is sodium lamp - constantly excited and spreading photons to detectors surrounding it from all but one direction - the direction to such CPT analogue of laser (e.g. conceptually simplest FEL).
    If it could stimulate absorption, it should literally drain energy of given wavelength - we should observe that it is turned on by watching the detectors around and lamp power drainage.

    What's wrong with such picture??

    ps. Here is nice paper about time symmetry of our Universe: http://arxiv.org/html/physics/9812021
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