Thread: Time Travel Paradoxes

From what I know, physicists have tried to find a law that would prevent time travel, but could not find any. Also, time travel seems to be consistent with the known laws of physics. Also, Einsteins equations allow time machines to exist. In his theory he uses "closed time-like curves". Considering these facts, is time travel still possible? Looking at it from a non-scientific point of view, if time travel was available, wouldn't we have tourists from the future? (Stephen Hawking) Or is it just because the "grandfather paradox" actually applies, thus, we cannot change what was in the past since it would change the future ( A familiar concept from "Back to the Future") Although these might seem silly doesn't it make one think about the reality of it? But then again, it could be possible if the past that has been changed branches off into a parallel universe and not affecting ours even a bit. And back again to the "grandfather paradox", if we killed our parents in the past it would not affect our existence since we have just killed two people whos genes are identical to ours... All of these paradoxes topple over eachother, and can be solved, but then make a new paradox which can be solved, and another, and another... Does this pattern end or does it go on forever? IS time travel proved to be possible?

It can be

Originally Posted by Water Nosfim

It can be

That doesn't exactly answer my question... Nor would've it been satisfying if it did answer a certain question...

No paradox , all yes , yes

If i try to explane how you orgenize the next world good from the last werst by time traveling id be troun from the forom. Thanks

Originally Posted by BlueBook

From what I know, physicists have tried to find a law that would prevent time travel, but could not find any. Also, time travel seems to be consistent with the known laws of physics. Also, Einsteins equations allow time machines to exist. In his theory he uses "closed time-like curves". Considering these facts, is time travel still possible? Looking at it from a non-scientific point of view, if time travel was available, wouldn't we have tourists from the future? (Stephen Hawking) Or is it just because the "grandfather paradox" actually applies, thus, we cannot change what was in the past since it would change the future ( A familiar concept from "Back to the Future") Although these might seem silly doesn't it make one think about the reality of it? But then again, it could be possible if the past that has been changed branches off into a parallel universe and not affecting ours even a bit. And back again to the "grandfather paradox", if we killed our parents in the past it would not affect our existence since we have just killed two people whos genes are identical to ours... All of these paradoxes topple over eachother, and can be solved, but then make a new paradox which can be solved, and another, and another... Does this pattern end or does it go on forever? IS time travel proved to be possible?

There is nothing obvious in the Einstein field equations that prevents the existence of closed time-like curves. In fact there are closed time-like curves that are known under exotic conditions.

On the other hand it is known that under reasonable hypotheses that closed time-like curves do not exist. http://prd.aps.org/abstract/PRD/v46/i2/p603_1

The full impossibility of macroscopic timelike curves is a conjecture, as yet unproved, by Hawking. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronol...ion_conjecture

Theres this way of sseing it probaly wrong but i like it

There's a process called "quantum handshake" i have read a very little about but as i understand it. It states using electrons as examples that the when electrons move, the electron in the the present moves along the timeline a bit quicker that normal and meets a future self coming back from the further foward in time and then they transfer their momentum, spin and position from each other by way of entanglement then normal time catches up with the electron from the present and it has the momentum spin and momentum and position that was intended for it. this maby totaly wrong as its ages since i read about it

I see it as and electron pops out of this existence and there fore creates a bit more space so also time has to strech a little in botth directions to acomadete the extra space as it stretches foward it meets a time stretch comming back from a dissepeering future self tangles up with it the electron pops back but cannot be in the same place as space and time have changed since it left so it has momentum,spin and position depending on the position of its self as a future electron which streched time backwards.

It is a neat trick for explaining how time marches forward and things can move but weather its true i dont know. all this process is very small and extremely quick and theoretical

I am of the opinion that the only feesible sort of time travel will be faster than light information signals and maby faster than light travel any other sort i think would be to confusing to exist in reality

Originally Posted by BlueBook

Looking at it from a non-scientific point of view, if time travel was available, wouldn't we have tourists from the future? (Stephen Hawking)

Who says we don't?

Maybe the flying saucers aren't aliens.

Or is it just because the "grandfather paradox" actually applies, thus, we cannot change what was in the past since it would change the future ( A familiar concept from "Back to the Future")

It's easiest to understand if you look at your life as an event, rather than a state of existence. That event started with your birth, and can't logically lead to your non birth.

But then again, it could be possible if the past that has been changed branches off into a parallel universe and not affecting ours even a bit.

It would be interesting if that were the case. Then there would always be a certain amount of probability involved.

If you are in "universe C" and decide to jump into nearly identical "universe D" and change its past, then there is always a non-zero probability that there exists a nearly identical version of you in "Universe B", and that person may decide to jump into your universe with the same idea. (He's in "universe B" jumping into "universe C")

Originally Posted by kojax

If you are in "universe C" and decide to jump into nearly identical "universe D" and change its past, then there is always a non-zero probability that there exists a nearly identical version of you in "Universe B", and that person may decide to jump into your universe with the same idea. (He's in "universe B" jumping into "universe C")

Prove it.

Originally Posted by kojax

It's easiest to understand if you look at your life as an event, rather than a state of existence. That event started with your birth, and can't logically lead to your non birth.

I can't wrap my head around the explanation of why that kind of thinking would be right.

Originally Posted by BlueBook

Originally Posted by kojax

It's easiest to understand if you look at your life as an event, rather than a state of existence. That event started with your birth, and can't logically lead to your non birth.

I can't wrap my head around the explanation of why that kind of thinking would be right.

The next time Kojax is right will be the first time.

Originally Posted by BlueBook

Originally Posted by kojax

It's easiest to understand if you look at your life as an event, rather than a state of existence. That event started with your birth, and can't logically lead to your non birth.

I can't wrap my head around the explanation of why that kind of thinking would be right.

If a time machine is ever invented, it will mostly likely be based on exploiting quantum effects. So, if you study QM (Quantum Mechanics) a bit, like looking up the Copenhagen interpretation, Schrodinger's Cat, and my personal favorite: the Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser, which is an experiment that purports to have sent a small amount of data a very short distance back in time, depending on how you read its results.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen_interpretation

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed...quantum_eraser


You'll see that in quantum causality things are kind of turned upside down or sideways on their ear. In quantum causality, a time machine might actually have the ability to prevent you from changing the past, even while allowing you to visit. Or maybe it's more accurate to say nature would have a way of doing that. Once you've put yourself in a quantum environment, you don't get to just pick and choose when you want to obey quantum rules and when you want to obey classical rules. It's kind of like how if you enter into an illegal deal with the mafia, and it goes bad, you can't just turn around and call the police.

Time travel paradoxes assume that you can travel to the past, and while there you can obey classical causality, but...... you used quantum causality to get there.....

If you're going to assume time travel, there are at least four ways it could be consistent (a sort-of sci-fi kind of consistency anyway): http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/chrono.html#summ

You can do many worlds and chose by serten forth to inhylet them . Agein sorry for my bad english . Thanks in edvance

If you're using Firefox or Opera, try installing a spell checker extension.

Originally Posted by MagiMaster

If you're using Firefox or Opera, try installing a spell checker extension.

good idea but im not , thanks

thank for good posting

Originally Posted by Water Nosfim

Originally Posted by MagiMaster

If you're using Firefox or Opera, try installing a spell checker extension.

good idea but im not , thanks

Roe, u culd jest yarn. :/

The quantum eraser experiment is mind blowing to someone with no understanding of quantum physics or relativity (and who will therefore refrain from commenting). Thanks for sharing that, I had never heard of it.

The trouble with many world theory is, what stops you from looking at the dimension's future/present before you jump into its past? Suppose you see something in its present that you don't like. Wouldn't jumping into its past and changing a future you had already seen still lead to a contradiction?

I have created a time machine, although it's very limited it does work. Unfortunately, I can only make it move forward but I'm working on that. I have used it and it successfully advanced me 1 sec/sec through time but I can't go back so I'm stuck here until I fix it.

Originally Posted by Retromingent

I have created a time machine, although it's very limited it does work. Unfortunately, I can only make it move forward but I'm working on that. I have used it and it successfully advanced me 1 sec/sec through time but I can't go back so I'm stuck here until I fix it.

well , dont brake it

Originally Posted by kojax

The trouble with many world theory is, what stops you from looking at the dimension's future/present before you jump into its past? Suppose you see something in its present that you don't like. Wouldn't jumping into its past and changing a future you had already seen still lead to a contradiction?

That's not a logical contradiction to the multiple dimension theory at all. You see, if you see the present of one dimension and you change its past, that creates a different dimension with a different present. But, the first universe you looked at does not change a bit.

Originally Posted by Retromingent

I have created a time machine, although it's very limited it does work. Unfortunately, I can only make it move forward but I'm working on that. I have used it and it successfully advanced me 1 sec/sec through time but I can't go back so I'm stuck here until I fix it.

LOL

Originally Posted by Retromingent

I have created a time machine, although it's very limited it does work. Unfortunately, I can only make it move forward but I'm working on that. I have used it and it successfully advanced me 1 sec/sec through time but I can't go back so I'm stuck here until I fix it.

Wow, haven't you come a long way?!

Ok so bare with me here, this will probably end up being quite a long post. Also note that this is going to go no where, these are my thoughts on the matter, nothing more.




Time Travel.

Lets say you have just seen yourself from the future.. A you from the future has gone back in time to see you, this then mean that there is already a future in which there is already a way to time travel. So right now, in our present time there is a future where we can time travel yes? So basically right now, there are two time lines over lapping each other.. because there is right now, and there is a future right now that yourself has come back from.

To explain what I mean better lets say that you were to travel into the future, does this mean that the future is already predetermined and has already happened? Or else what am I travelling into, does the future create itself to be there for me to appear into when I travel to it? The same applies for the reverse. If I were to travel back in time, that would mean that for the past there is already a future (my present) in which case everything is already predetermined, I know this because I just came from it.

Does this mean that since creation (which ever theory you want to go with) there has always been a future? because you would technically be able to travel to creation point.. Does this then mean that all times possible are happening right now? Is our entire existance built up apon an instant the moment everything was created... Every timeline was created because we can travel to it so it must have always been this way. Are we just a split second?

I'm really sorry if this isn't making any sense, I just felt like I needed to say all of this.





Quantum Mechanics.

The only way in which the above statements cannot be true is of course if the multiverse theory was correct, in which case instead of traveling back in your own timeline, you, infact travel back to that same time in a different universe within a sea of infinite universes based around you and your actions. (If you are even the original or just a possible different choice from the original).

But then we come to the same problem as before. If every thing you do has infinite universes where you slightly change the way you do things, does that then mean that since the beggining every single possible outcome has already happened? because you can ofcourse travel to them.. Again are we living within a split second of "time"?

Are we still just an instant?




If I didn't make any sense to you, then I'm sorry for my rambling

But if you slightly understood what I was getting at then please reply, whether it be on here or in private. I want to understand what I'm talking about better.

Evrry thing can change you shood know what to hold and what to get loos

Cerphres your explanations were quite confusing and unorganized even for yourself. You wont grasp the general idea if you don't organize your info and thoughts well within your own head. I think it would be good for you to read some of the things I wrote in the first page, since it answers some of your thoughts.

It you want some broad, more detailed explanations then I think this would be a great place to start at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel

BlueBook,

Your first entry only very broadly touched on what I was trying to get out. It was unorganized yes, I stated that it was going to go no where and that they were just ideas, no specific order to them, just thoughts. They make sense to me lol, although that's no help to anyone else. I've read wiki and yes they state some paradoxes, but they don't go into at all what I mentioned.

The basic drift of what i was trying to get across was that for time travel to happen without a multiverse then every single time, past, present and future has to of happened all in the same instant. forget all the little paradoxes and think in the ultimate picture. I've tried to explain it best I could but I'm no good with words it seems haha.

If I get the time then I will attempt a Ver.2 at this, a less disorganized and easy to follow guide to the mess in my mind

Perhaps if you'd like, you can point out all the places you got lost at in my mess and I can try and explain what I ment in more detail bit by bit

I'm sorry but the task does not fit in my free time :? Though I always enjoy a nice conversation on the forums...

That's ok, a rewrite it is! when I get time ofcourse.

Ok so I've decided to go about this a different way. I realized that it would take me a long time to word it just right for everyone to understand my mind.. So i conversed with a friend of mine about the subject and copied the conversation.

Note that this conversation happened over 2 days so i will make 2 seperate posts (Unless each day conversation is too long) of the different days.

Also note that My name is Clayton
His name is Malcolm.
I would like to also add that he is (as it's clear) smarter than I am, hence me asking most of the questions




Day 1

18/04/2011 4:01:43 PM Clayton. so, we've talked about time travel before yeah


18/04/2011 4:01:47 PM Malcolm Fenech . yeah


18/04/2011 4:01:59 PM Clayton. I made a post somewhere and it was really roughly done

18/04/2011 4:02:10 PM Clayton. i want you to see if you can understand what im trying to say


18/04/2011 4:02:12 PM Clayton. because


18/04/2011 4:02:28 PM Clayton. these people on the science forums couldn't understand me


18/04/2011 4:02:32 PM Clayton. admittedly though


18/04/2011 4:02:38 PM Clayton. it is hard to follow


18/04/2011 4:02:46 PM Clayton. because it was so rushed


18/04/2011 4:02:48 PM Clayton. leme find it


18/04/2011 4:03:15 PM Malcolm Fenech. time travel isn't possible without it already existing though


18/04/2011 4:03:22 PM Clayton. its what im trying to say


18/04/2011 4:03:30 PM Clayton. but these people don't seem to understand what I'm saying


18/04/2011 4:03:44 PM Clayton. also, are you familiar with quantum mechanics?


18/04/2011 4:03:50 PM Malcolm Fenech. although apparently it's already been done


18/04/2011 4:04:07 PM Malcolm Fenech. some scientists fires some nutrinos from the pole to the equator and they arrived before they were fired


18/04/2011 4:04:13 PM Malcolm Fenech. no not really


18/04/2011 4:04:19 PM Clayton. well anyway


18/04/2011 4:04:21 PM Clayton. read


18/04/2011 4:04:21 PM Clayton . sends Pasted_Data_702c.txt (this is my post on page 2 of this thread)


18/04/2011 4:04:45 PM Clayton. i posted it last night, no one understood me, so i figured i'd ask you lol


18/04/2011 4:05:05 PM Clayton. and perhaps you can help me re-write it so it's no so jumbled


18/04/2011 4:05:47 PM Malcolm Fenech. the thing about your time travel theory though


18/04/2011 4:05:55 PM Malcolm Fenech. is that there's two possibilities not just yours


18/04/2011 4:06:04 PM Malcolm Fenech. either it's yours (which I tend to agree with more)


18/04/2011 4:06:11 PM Malcolm Fenech. and everything has to have happened to happen


18/04/2011 4:06:13 PM Malcolm Fenech. OR


18/04/2011 4:06:18 PM Malcolm Fenech. it HASN'T happened


18/04/2011 4:06:27 PM Malcolm Fenech. and that you travel (if possible)


18/04/2011 4:06:34 PM Malcolm Fenech. will then altar events


18/04/2011 4:06:40 PM Malcolm Fenech. and screw with the future and present


18/04/2011 4:06:44 PM Clayton. ok think about this


18/04/2011 4:06:57 PM Clayton. say you traveled into the past right


18/04/2011 4:07:11 PM Clayton. that means that from the pasts point of view there is already a future happening


18/04/2011 4:07:22 PM Clayton. proof being you


18/04/2011 4:07:29 PM Clayton. now these people didn't get this i'm assuming, different perspective


18/04/2011 4:07:45 PM Clayton. say you were to travel into the future


18/04/2011 4:07:53 PM Malcolm Fenech. consider this


18/04/2011 4:07:56 PM Malcolm Fenech. you travel to the past


18/04/2011 4:07:59 PM Malcolm Fenech. your past self sees you


18/04/2011 4:08:03 PM Malcolm Fenech. altars the future


18/04/2011 4:08:15 PM Malcolm Fenech. and possibly kills your future self or altars the future so you never travel


18/04/2011 4:08:26 PM Malcolm Fenech. it would just unbalance the fabric of everything


18/04/2011 4:08:42 PM Clayton. yeah the paradoxes are endless


18/04/2011 4:08:43 PM Clayton. but


18/04/2011 4:08:46 PM Clayton. think about this


18/04/2011 4:08:56 PM Clayton. say there is no current future


18/04/2011 4:09:00 PM Clayton. like they are suggesting


18/04/2011 4:09:10 PM Clayton. everything is as it is


18/04/2011 4:09:16 PM Clayton. and you were to travel into the future


18/04/2011 4:09:27 PM Clayton. does the future create itself simply because you are traveling to it?


18/04/2011 4:09:36 PM Clayton. how does it know what to be?


18/04/2011 4:09:45 PM Malcolm Fenech. also consider this, time isn't a thing, it's non existant, time is based on you and your peception of events, so what if by time traveling, you move your whole self. What if we're time traveling now, slowly, a second at a time into the future, can't we travel and move our whole self through time, just in another direction


18/04/2011 4:10:03 PM Malcolm Fenech. well


18/04/2011 4:10:09 PM Malcolm Fenech. I don't think you can travel to the future


18/04/2011 4:10:14 PM Malcolm Fenech. because


18/04/2011 4:10:18 PM Malcolm Fenech. it hasn't happened


18/04/2011 4:10:21 PM Clayton. exactly


18/04/2011 4:10:26 PM Clayton. which is also why


18/04/2011 4:10:27 PM Malcolm Fenech. I personally don't believe everything is predetermined


18/04/2011 4:10:30 PM Clayton. you cant travel to the past


18/04/2011 4:10:31 PM Malcolm Fenech. but some people may believe it is


18/04/2011 4:10:41 PM Clayton. because that would mean that from the pasts point of view


18/04/2011 4:10:43 PM Malcolm Fenech. but think about this


18/04/2011 4:10:45 PM Clayton. there is a future


18/04/2011 4:10:49 PM Malcolm Fenech. we're constantly moving into the future


18/04/2011 4:10:53 PM Malcolm Fenech. and it IS creating itself as we go


18/04/2011 4:11:09 PM Malcolm Fenech. so maybe you can leap forward drasticly and it WILL create itself


18/04/2011 4:11:22 PM Malcolm Fenech. yes but


18/04/2011 4:11:32 PM Malcolm Fenech. you assume there will be a you in the past


18/04/2011 4:11:38 PM Malcolm Fenech. why would there be a you in the past?


18/04/2011 4:11:39 PM Clayton. no, im talking


18/04/2011 4:11:43 PM Clayton. say go back to 1854


18/04/2011 4:11:46 PM Clayton. even then


18/04/2011 4:11:51 PM Clayton. you know there is a future from that point


18/04/2011 4:11:57 PM Clayton. because you came from it


18/04/2011 4:12:01 PM Malcolm Fenech. yes but this is assuming that it's fixed


18/04/2011 4:12:02 PM Clayton. regardless of what they know


18/04/2011 4:12:16 PM Malcolm Fenech. what if you go to the past to say the great depression and stop it from happening


18/04/2011 4:12:22 PM Malcolm Fenech. this would just alter the future


18/04/2011 4:12:29 PM Malcolm Fenech. instead of making it fixed


18/04/2011 4:12:37 PM Malcolm Fenech. so then the future isn't pre determind


18/04/2011 4:13:08 PM Clayton. your talking


18/04/2011 4:13:12 PM Clayton. multiple time lines?


18/04/2011 4:13:15 PM Clayton. of the same place


18/04/2011 4:13:24 PM Clayton. parallel to each other?


18/04/2011 4:13:43 PM Malcolm Fenech. no


18/04/2011 4:13:47 PM Malcolm Fenech. well


18/04/2011 4:13:52 PM Malcolm Fenech. it could be a multiple time line


18/04/2011 4:13:54 PM Malcolm Fenech. or


18/04/2011 4:14:00 PM Malcolm Fenech. it could just scrub your timeline clean


18/04/2011 4:14:02 PM Malcolm Fenech. and start again


18/04/2011 4:14:22 PM Malcolm Fenech. because you altar the course of history that led to the point of travel


18/04/2011 4:14:35 PM Clayton. yeah


18/04/2011 4:14:39 PM Malcolm Fenech. traveling to the past would just be


18/04/2011 4:14:42 PM Malcolm Fenech. cataclysmic


18/04/2011 4:14:45 PM Clayton. ikr


18/04/2011 4:14:47 PM Malcolm Fenech. it could well be the end of everything


18/04/2011 4:14:58 PM Clayton. well heres a theory of mine


18/04/2011 4:15:01 PM Malcolm Fenech. just one word or your mere apearance in strange clothes


18/04/2011 4:15:33 PM Clayton. say you can time travel, it has already happened because it has to of right (lets go with this theory on it)


18/04/2011 4:15:38 PM Clayton. does that then mean


18/04/2011 4:15:46 PM Clayton. that because you can travel back to creation point


18/04/2011 4:15:55 PM Clayton. that the moment everything was created


18/04/2011 4:16:01 PM Clayton. so was the future


18/04/2011 4:16:05 PM Clayton. and the end of everything


18/04/2011 4:16:10 PM Clayton. because


18/04/2011 4:16:12 PM Malcolm Fenech. not the end of everything


18/04/2011 4:16:13 PM Clayton. it has to have happened


18/04/2011 4:16:18 PM Malcolm Fenech. because you'd have to travel from the end


18/04/2011 4:16:36 PM Malcolm Fenech. it would just be that from the moment of creation so too were you created travilg back in time


18/04/2011 4:16:40 PM Clayton. but you already know that there is a future beyond your own point


18/04/2011 4:16:55 PM Clayton. because you can travel to it


18/04/2011 4:17:04 PM Clayton. so..


18/04/2011 4:17:19 PM Clayton. would that make our existance a split second in "time"


18/04/2011 4:17:24 PM Clayton. because


18/04/2011 4:17:30 PM Clayton. everything is happening in one instance


18/04/2011 4:17:52 PM Malcolm. well


18/04/2011 4:17:53 PM Malcolm Fenech. no


18/04/2011 4:18:05 PM Malcolm Fenech. our existance can't be in an instance because time


18/04/2011 4:18:10 PM Malcolm Fenech. is only relative to human life


18/04/2011 4:18:45 PM Malcolm Fenech. time is just irrelivant outside of human chronology


18/04/2011 4:21:38 PM Malcolm Fenech. stop trying to use time


18/04/2011 4:21:41 PM Malcolm Fenech. there is no time


18/04/2011 4:22:04 PM Malcolm Fenech. everything is just one singularity


18/04/2011 4:22:11 PM Malcolm Fenech. and we just chalk out lines


18/04/2011 4:22:15 PM Malcolm Fenech. but the universe doesn't


18/04/2011 4:23:29 PM Clayton. why doesn't the universe? you can see that it has a time line, from creation point all galaxies have been moving away from each other, they supposedly calculated the age of the universe


18/04/2011 4:23:49 PM Malcolm Fenech. no but again


18/04/2011 4:23:55 PM Malcolm Fenech. it's because humans


18/04/2011 4:24:00 PM Malcolm Fenech. and not the universe


18/04/2011 4:24:08 PM Malcolm Fenech. impose time


18/04/2011 4:24:12 PM Malcolm Fenech. like


18/04/2011 4:24:19 PM Malcolm Fenech. it's hard to put into words


18/04/2011 4:24:38 PM Clayton. but events still occur, they pass, is that not time?


18/04/2011 4:24:48 PM Clayton. even without us knowing or viewing


18/04/2011 4:24:58 PM Malcolm Fenech. time is us measuring the distance from one instant to the next


18/04/2011 4:25:07 PM Malcolm Fenech. if we're not there


18/04/2011 4:25:09 PM Malcolm Fenech. there is no time


18/04/2011 4:25:16 PM Malcolm Fenech. the stars aren't measuring the passing


18/04/2011 4:25:19 PM Malcolm Fenech. the planets aren't


18/04/2011 4:25:26 PM Malcolm Fenech. the nothingess isn't measuring the passing


18/04/2011 4:25:53 PM Clayton. yeah but just because they aren't messuring it, doesn't mean its not happening


18/04/2011 4:25:57 PM Clayton. they still do pass


18/04/2011 4:26:01 PM Malcolm Fenech. if there were no humans the universe wouldn't go on, it would just be


18/04/2011 4:26:25 PM Malcolm Fenech. but it's not relevant


18/04/2011 4:26:32 PM Clayton. but it still happens


18/04/2011 4:26:36 PM Malcolm Fenech. lets say for a moment


18/04/2011 4:26:42 PM Malcolm Fenech. that there was no more life


18/04/2011 4:26:46 PM Malcolm Fenech. no life period


18/04/2011 4:26:49 PM Malcolm Fenech. right down to bacteria


18/04/2011 4:26:59 PM Malcolm Fenech. would a meter still exist? Yes


18/04/2011 4:27:11 PM Malcolm Fenech. would it be remotely relevant to the universe that is infinitely large?


18/04/2011 4:27:13 PM Malcolm Fenech. no


18/04/2011 4:27:17 PM Malcolm Fenech. same with time


18/04/2011 4:27:45 PM Clayton. would time still exist, yes. would it be relevant, no. but passing is still there regardless


18/04/2011 4:27:49 PM Clayton. i know what your trying to say


18/04/2011 4:27:54 PM Clayton. but it is still there


18/04/2011 4:28:05 PM Malcolm Fenech. yes but there's a difference between 1 billion years passing


18/04/2011 4:28:06 PM Malcolm Fenech. and


18/04/2011 4:28:09 PM Malcolm Fenech. forever


18/04/2011 4:29:01 PM Clayton. btw, you wouldn't mind if i copied and pasted this on the forums? this explains things better than i can put into words


18/04/2011 4:29:01 PM Clayton. lol


18/04/2011 4:29:14 PM Malcolm Fenech. sure, fix my spell mistakes so I don't look like a retard


18/04/2011 4:29:18 PM Clayton. lol


18/04/2011 4:29:22 PM Clayton. im going to add more in


18/04/2011 4:29:38 PM Clayton. now


18/04/2011 4:29:44 PM Clayton. onto quantum mechanics


18/04/2011 4:29:45 PM Malcolm Fenech. the whole thing is impossible anyway


18/04/2011 4:29:46 PM Clayton. lol


18/04/2011 4:30:01 PM Malcolm Fenech. because you're thinking of the rammifications of time travel


18/04/2011 4:30:10 PM Malcolm Fenech. and the paradox of having already done it to do it


18/04/2011 4:30:10 PM Malcolm Fenech. but


18/04/2011 4:30:18 PM Malcolm Fenech. you can't move faster than the speed of light to begin with


18/04/2011 4:30:24 PM Malcolm Fenech. and if you could


18/04/2011 4:30:25 PM Malcolm Fenech. you would die


18/04/2011 4:30:36 PM Clayton. wouldn't even get close


18/04/2011 4:30:59 PM Clayton. also everyone tends to put it on an earthly scale


18/04/2011 4:31:04 PM Clayton. if you were to go back in time


18/04/2011 4:31:14 PM Clayton. then your putting the universe back as well


18/04/2011 4:31:20 PM Clayton. not just yourself and earth


18/04/2011 4:31:25 PM Malcolm Fenech. indeed


18/04/2011 4:31:34 PM Malcolm Fenech. and


18/04/2011 4:31:40 PM Malcolm Fenech. lets say for a second it's possible


18/04/2011 4:31:45 PM Malcolm Fenech. it's such a waste


18/04/2011 4:31:54 PM Malcolm Fenech. at the most you gop back 2-4 thousand years


18/04/2011 4:32:22 PM Malcolm Fenech. not like you can go back to the creation of earth or the solar system or the universe because what do you breathe eat and drink?


18/04/2011 4:32:29 PM Clayton. yeah lol


18/04/2011 4:32:49 PM Malcolm Fenech. if you somehow create the most groundbreaking ability to ever be concieved


18/04/2011 4:32:56 PM Malcolm Fenech. you can't do a damn thing with it

18/04/2011 4:33:30 PM Clayton. lol


18/04/2011 4:33:36 PM Clayton. so anyway


18/04/2011 4:33:40 PM Clayton. quantum mechanics




And then we continued with quantum mechanics talk.. I wont add that in as it had nothing to do with this topic.

Note that the way I copied this one is different, hence the different style.


Day 2



Clayton . says (6:26 p.m.)
-so

Clayton . says (6:27 p.m.)
-our most sensible conclusion would you say is that, for time travel to happen it has to have already happened?

Malcolm says (6:27 p.m.)
-actually while I was having my hair cut
-I thought of something

Clayton . says (6:27 p.m.)
-wonder if its what i thought of
-go on

Malcolm says (6:27 p.m.)
-well
-this is assuming time travel is possible

Malcolm says (6:28 p.m.)
-if time is a line
-and you moved backwards
-most people suspect that you'll see yourself
-but wouldn't it more likely be

Clayton . says (6:28 p.m.)
-would you de-age?
-lol

Malcolm says (6:28 p.m.)
-that you become yourpast self
-because
-you can't just vanish from the present

Malcolm says (6:29 p.m.)
-wouldn't it just drag every instance of your life backwards by however far back you traveled

Clayton . says (6:29 p.m.)
-what if you displaced yourself from time/space, turn things back, then re entered?

Malcolm says (6:30 p.m.)
-but scientists think that they've made nutrinos travel back in time already
-idk how they seem to think they did it though
-but

Clayton . says (6:30 p.m.)
-wouldn't they have just dissapeared to them?

Malcolm says (6:30 p.m.)
-it wouldn't be applicable to human travel

Clayton . says (6:31 p.m.)
-well, lets say for discussions sake that you can time travel and that you would see yourself blah blah

Clayton . says (6:32 p.m.)
-you mentioned an experiment where they shot something and it got back to them bfore they pulled the trigger?
-or something along those lines

Malcolm says (6:32 p.m.)
-yes

Clayton . says (6:32 p.m.)
-ok

Malcolm says (6:32 p.m.)
-they fired nutrinos from the pole to the equator and they arrived before they were fired

Clayton . says (6:32 p.m.)
-then this kinda proves my new theory

Clayton . says (6:33 p.m.)
-the fact that they even got there before it was fired not only proves time travel
-but also proves that everything is pre deteremed
-in which case
-time travel can happen
-and you cant change past events
-because they have already happened
-"fate" i guess you call it

Clayton . says (6:34 p.m.)
-it was pre deteremed that he was going to fire the nutron
-thats why it came back before he fired it

Malcolm says (6:34 p.m.)
-maybe not I mean

Clayton . says (6:34 p.m.)
-theres no way it couldn't of if it wasnt certian he was going to fire it

Malcolm says (6:35 p.m.)
-it wouldn't be that things were pre determined
-it would be that things were happening
-so fast compressed into an instant so fast it seemed pre determined
-but wasn't

Clayton . says (6:35 p.m.)
-so fast that it happened before he fired it? that's not speed lol

Clayton . says (6:36 p.m.)
-thats time displacement

Malcolm says (6:36 p.m.)
-but it is
-like
-bleh
-can't think straight

Clayton . says (6:36 p.m.)
-lol

Malcolm says (6:36 p.m.)
-the act of traveling
-backwards
-would be achieved by speed
-like
-imagine there's a time line

Malcolm says (6:37 p.m.)
-in the middle is the present
-it goes backwards infinity
-and forwards infinity
-all that infinity both backwards and forwards
-are compressed
-into an instance just a small spark
-I don't think I'm making sense l0l

Clayton . says (6:38 p.m.)
-that's what i was saying the other day, that ever since we existed, so did the future, everything that is going to happen, all our past and future all happening in that one spark
-i was saying it last time we spoke
->.<

(note, this is mentioned in my original post on page 2)

Malcolm says (6:38 p.m.)
-but
-I wouldn't say it's eactly
-predetermind

Malcolm says (6:39 p.m.)
-well
-I'd like to think it isn't
-if it is though it's not like it matters
-because you wouldn't really notice

Clayton . says (6:39 p.m.)
-with that notion of everything being just one spark
-i want you to re read my post on the science forum

Malcolm says (6:40 p.m.)
-yes but no it differs
-I think if the time in front of you and behind you are both seperate sparks
-with the present being solid
-time travel doesn't have to exist
-to exist
-but if time is just one continuous line no sparks just forever
-then it has to exist to exist
-it's kind of a paradox
-because

Malcolm says (6:41 p.m.)
-if the future ISN"T predetermind
-then
-you need it to exist to exist
-in which case
-the future would HAVE to be pre determind

Clayton . says (6:41 p.m.)
-yeah

Malcolm says (6:41 p.m.)
-but

Clayton . says (6:41 p.m.)
-i mentioned that in the post
-if you read

Malcolm says (6:41 p.m.)
-if the future was already predetermind

Clayton . says (6:41 p.m.)
-lol

Malcolm says (6:41 p.m.)
-then
-it wouldn't have to exist
-to exist
-I think

Clayton . says (6:42 p.m.)
-because
-wait
-why not

Malcolm says (6:42 p.m.)
-because
-if it were predetermind
-moving forward only
-the future would already account for you
-but it would complicate moving backwards

Clayton . says (6:43 p.m.)
-but to be able to account for you doesnt that mean there is already a future, where what your going to do has happened and you will just repeat it?

Malcolm says (6:43 p.m.)
-hmm

Clayton . says (6:44 p.m.)
-because thats what pre determind is right? you are going to do something regardless of weather you think you are, what makes that happen?

Malcolm says (6:44 p.m.)
-I didn't consider a loop

Clayton . says (6:44 p.m.)
-the only thing i can see making that happen
-is it already have happened
-and you just repeat it

Malcolm says (6:44 p.m.)
-OR
-god makes you do it, case closed

Clayton . says (6:44 p.m.)
-lol
-k you win
-god is the answer


After some anti religion talk...


Clayton . says (6:51 p.m.)
-you know how you theorized that if you went back in time you wouldn't see yourself, but be your past self?

Malcolm says (6:51 p.m.)
-yes
-I think thats more likely

Clayton . says (6:51 p.m.)
-what if you went back to before you were born

Malcolm says (6:51 p.m.)
-what I think would happen is
-like

Malcolm says (6:52 p.m.)
-not exactly be your past self but imagine
-we had your life
-you're what 23? say you had a string
-with 23 knots in it at even intervals
-instead of you jumping from present
-to past time
-imagine dragin the string
-so that the 23rd knot
-is at your current distination

Malcolm says (6:53 p.m.)
-that you want to travel
-and each knot moves back the same amount of time
-then you can take it further
-and say the string has a knot from 1 to however old you will die if the world is predetermind

Malcolm says (6:54 p.m.)
-so that if you were 23 and moved back exactly 1 year
-24 year old clayton is filling the space
-but the knots
-don't have to be 1 year intervals

Clayton . says (6:54 p.m.)
-oh i see

Malcolm says (6:54 p.m.)
-they can be
-a day a second

Clayton . says (6:54 p.m.)
-i just got your knot explination then
-i'm slow lol

Malcolm says (6:54 p.m.)
-a fraction of a second

Clayton . says (6:55 p.m.)
-so you dont become your past self
-you just fill its space in time

Malcolm says (6:55 p.m.)
-yes
-I mean
-if you time travel
-most explinations just seem to imply
-that you just leave a gaping hole
-in reality

Clayton . says (6:56 p.m.)
-yeah lol

Clayton . says (6:59 p.m.)
-also how is it that they intend to time travel? is it the whole
-beyond light speed thing?

Malcolm says (6:59 p.m.)
-well yeah because

Malcolm says (7:00 p.m.)
-time fills space I guess..?
-like
-all past events are out there
-somewhere
-imagine like

Clayton . says (7:00 p.m.)
-thats not really time travelling then is it?

Malcolm says (7:00 p.m.)
-those old radio signals that get sent into space

Clayton . says (7:00 p.m.)
-isnt it just moving fast?
-lol

Malcolm says (7:00 p.m.)
-and get picked up decades later
-yes but like
-the past is sort of
-moving away from us down the time line
-the opposite way

Malcolm says (7:01 p.m.)
-at an incredible speed
-each speck of time is just passing in an instant
-and you have to move faster than it
-that's my basic understanding

Clayton . says (7:01 p.m.)
-how do you then direct this speeding up, backwards
-lol

Malcolm says (7:01 p.m.)
-you know what

Malcolm says (7:02 p.m.)
-I have no idea

Clayton . says (7:02 p.m.)
-like
-it makes no sense
-to speed up
-backwards

Malcolm says (7:02 p.m.)
-I never actually gave thought to the traveling itself just because I never believed it possible

Clayton . says (7:03 p.m.)
-doesn't that fact alone make it not possible?
-you have no way in the timeline in which to direct your speed of travel
-when you speed up, you just head forwards in it
-at a faster pace

Malcolm says (7:03 p.m.)
-actually
-you move fast but continue in time at the same pace

Malcolm says (7:04 p.m.)
-lol

Clayton . says (7:04 p.m.)
-yeah lol
-just thought of that
-as you were typing
-all your doing, is travelling in the physical
-not time at all
-lol

Malcolm says (7:05 p.m.)
-I never gave thought to the fact
-that time isn't a thing
-it's not located anywhere

Clayton . says (7:05 p.m.)
-yeah

Malcolm says (7:05 p.m.)
-you can't travel on it

Clayton . says (7:08 p.m.)
-so from this whole thing here.. conclusion is? Time isn't a thing, you cant just find it and travel which ever way you want
-therfore, it's impossible to time travel

Malcolm says (7:08 p.m.)
-pretty much
-but
-isn't there 'space time'

Malcolm says (7:09 p.m.)
-I never listened in physics

Malcolm says (7:09 p.m.)
-what is it l0l

Clayton . says (7:09 p.m.)
-idk lol, we should of probably figured this out long before even discussing time...

Clayton . says (7:10 p.m.)
-wiki time

Malcolm says (7:10 p.m.)
-beat you to it l0l

Clayton . says (7:10 p.m.)
-sad

Clayton . says (7:16 p.m.)
-so spacetime
-how does time factor in?

Malcolm says (7:16 p.m.)
-well

Malcolm says (7:17 p.m.)
-it seems to imply
-that there is a space
-like
-a physical occupiable space
-that has
-a certain time in it
-like
-a certain time correlates to a certain place
-like a map grid I guess

Malcolm says (7:18 p.m.)
-you have the letters across the top and the numbers at the side
-and say the numbers are time and the letters space
-and thus by moving to this place
-you move to that time

Clayton . says (7:19 p.m.)
-what if you were to move out of a space then back into it
-isn't that just going back in time?

Malcolm says (7:20 p.m.)
-I think maybe
-I over simplified it
-like
-it's not just this small spot
-idk
-it's theory

Clayton . says (7:20 p.m.)
-lol

Malcolm says (7:21 p.m.)
-I think
-space time has to exist for time travel to exist
-but it wouldn't be time travel per se
-it would be physical travel
-to a different time

Clayton . says (7:21 p.m.)
-to an old space
-like
-recycling space

Clayton . says (7:22 p.m.)
-but then your back at all the paradoxes again -.-

Malcolm says (7:22 p.m.)
-bleh
-well it's not like
-two kids are gunna solve time travel
-lol

Clayton . says (7:22 p.m.)
-lol, we're not so much kids anymore lol

Malcolm says (7:26 p.m.)
-I think spacetime is why the faster than the speed of light theory is the main one

Clayton . says (7:27 p.m.)
-yeah, because it implys that time is within space, meaning it's travelable

Malcolm says (7:27 p.m.)
-it's just
-like
-where the hell is this space

Clayton . says (7:28 p.m.)
-and
-how do you direct yourself on it
-lol
-if space time were real in the graph way you made out
-wouldnt that mean that
-our past is still there
-each point
-frozen

Clayton . says (7:29 p.m.)
-like
-wouldnt we be like a cartoon
-no
-flip book
-going ahead page by page
-the past pages are then just a frozen image

Malcolm says (7:29 p.m.)
-except it stays on every page
-forever

Clayton . says (7:30 p.m.)
-i wonder if this is how they came up with multiverse
-because then
-each instance in time if you go back
-has a different way it can be played out

Clayton . says (7:31 p.m.)
-idk how to explain my thought pattern on that
-or how i got to it
-lol
-like
-we are constantly moving
-and the past, each and every milisecond of it

Malcolm says (7:31 p.m.)
-imagine that every instant was like a frozen flipbook page and to travel you go to the relevant page, imagine how long and how many universes you'd have to travel in
-to go back one hour

Clayton . says (7:31 p.m.)
-is a frozen point in time
-and if you go back to it, you can carry it on from there, but in a different path

Malcolm says (7:32 p.m.)
-if the world was a flipbook though
-that means
-we're already moving forward
-and an infinite speed

Clayton . says (7:32 p.m.)
-perhaps we are

Malcolm says (7:32 p.m.)
-which makes you ask
-how the hell do you travel forward faster than infinity
-playground physics, infinity +1!

Clayton . says (7:33 p.m.)
-lol
-well
-if the universe is a picture book, then maybe future travel isn't possible
-but backwards is, to the same universe but different
-idk
-the same place, but now maliable in a different way

Clayton . says (7:34 p.m.)
-uneffecting your original present
-also
-you wouldnt be able to travel back to your original time
-because its moving away from you
-at infinity
-while you move in a different direction that it at infinity

Malcolm says (7:35 p.m.)
-yeah
-I never gave much thought to getting back

Clayton . says (7:35 p.m.)
-your knot theory would come into play here as well, you would take the space of your old self in the different but same universe

Malcolm says (7:36 p.m.)
-because 1) time travel is impossible 2) the speed to GET there would kill you 3) you may well kill your future (present) self 4) you traveled in tiem someones going to arrest you, probe your ass and probably kill you
-the thing with the knot theory though is
-the last knot in the line

Clayton . says (7:36 p.m.)
-yeah

Malcolm says (7:36 p.m.)
-the tiny spark as you die
-moves backwards
-and

Malcolm says (7:37 p.m.)
-and taking the origional spot where you die is nothingness

Clayton . says (7:37 p.m.)
-so what do you become, or where would you exist

Malcolm says (7:37 p.m.)
-no idea

Clayton . says (7:37 p.m.)
-you become god
-solved

Malcolm says (7:38 p.m.)
-start the smiting

Clayton . says (7:38 p.m.)
-time travel = become god
-thats why they want to do it so bad


So let me hear your thoughts on these two pieces of text.

We interupt each other alot and change our minds on things alot, but when you're theorizing, who doesn't? haha.

Its too long to me to read , but one way to think of it is like for computer to go back in time is to restor it and people are like computer

Water Nosfim.

You are certian that you are right and don't read or accept what anyone else is saying. This is ment to be about discussion not ignorance.

These topics become more accessible when you stop smoking pot.

Originally Posted by Cerphres

Water Nosfim.

You are certian that you are right and don't read or accept what anyone else is saying. This is ment to be about discussion not ignorance.

when you take time backwerd you got the picture wat peopel say in general

Originally Posted by BlueBook

From what I know, physicists have tried to find a law that would prevent time travel, but could not find any. Also, time travel seems to be consistent with the known laws of physics. Also, Einsteins equations allow time machines to exist. In his theory he uses "closed time-like curves". Considering these facts, is time travel still possible? Looking at it from a non-scientific point of view, if time travel was available, wouldn't we have tourists from the future? (Stephen Hawking) Or is it just because the "grandfather paradox" actually applies, thus, we cannot change what was in the past since it would change the future ( A familiar concept from "Back to the Future") Although these might seem silly doesn't it make one think about the reality of it? But then again, it could be possible if the past that has been changed branches off into a parallel universe and not affecting ours even a bit. And back again to the "grandfather paradox", if we killed our parents in the past it would not affect our existence since we have just killed two people whos genes are identical to ours... All of these paradoxes topple over eachother, and can be solved, but then make a new paradox which can be solved, and another, and another... Does this pattern end or does it go on forever? IS time travel proved to be possible?

No paradoxes, because it's all theory.

Originally Posted by Blueberries

There is nothing obvious in the Einstein field equations that prevents the existence of closed time-like curves. In fact there are closed time-like curves that are known under exotic conditions.








RS GoldRift PlatinumBuy Runescape Gold

Dr Rocket already mentioned that... with the same exact words.

Originally Posted by BlueBook

Dr Rocket already mentioned that... with the same exact words.

Yes, but Doc left out the spam. Reported.

Originally Posted by BlueBook

From what I know, physicists have tried to find a law that would prevent time travel, but could not find any. Also, time travel seems to be consistent with the known laws of physics. Also, Einsteins equations allow time machines to exist. In his theory he uses "closed time-like curves". Considering these facts, is time travel still possible? Looking at it from a non-scientific point of view, if time travel was available, wouldn't we have tourists from the future? (Stephen Hawking) Or is it just because the "grandfather paradox" actually applies, thus, we cannot change what was in the past since it would change the future ( A familiar concept from "Back to the Future") Although these might seem silly doesn't it make one think about the reality of it? But then again, it could be possible if the past that has been changed branches off into a parallel universe and not affecting ours even a bit. And back again to the "grandfather paradox", if we killed our parents in the past it would not affect our existence since we have just killed two people whos genes are identical to ours... All of these paradoxes topple over eachother, and can be solved, but then make a new paradox which can be solved, and another, and another... Does this pattern end or does it go on forever? IS time travel proved to be possible?

Perhaps we are currently the 1rst time of continued existence, we haven't passed a certain point of advancement thus not being able to time travel for that technology is out of our reach. Once it becomes available then we can travel to prior time frames but WE are the only 1rst time frame lol. I've read stuff where we can only travel to the past no later than the exact time a medium is turned on (time machine) for without this medium our matter will not have anything to receive it in the other end!?

I think we can devise a pretty good "no grandfather killing" rule if we just use entropy rules. Your body has a certain amount of orderliness. It's entropy is greater than zero. That's the reason you are a human being instead of a lump (or maybe cloud) of chemicals. That orderliness owes its existence to the past events that shaped and/or created you.

If you attempted to change those events, then probably that orderliness would be damaged or destroyed, which would kill you. Probably you would die before you could actually carry out the course of action you had decided upon.

We could argue that if there is a contradiction between the information contained the system that currently defines "you", and a piece of information earlier in the chain of causality that lead up to the present state of "you", then probably that contradiction resolves itself by eliminating the present "you", and leaving the earlier piece of information intact.

See: chronology protection conjecture