Thread: A newbie question about atoms & particles

This is a question I have been spending some time thinking about recently, and with what little "research" (online googling )I have made, there does not seem to be a "simple" enough answer that helps me visualize what happens during.

Q1: Do atoms always exists in a state of motion?

Q2: What happens when the motion of an (or more) atoms cease? (i.e. what happens to the element/object when the atoms within is deprived of all motion?)

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

This is a question I have been spending some time thinking about recently, and with what little "research" (online googling )I have made, there does not seem to be a "simple" enough answer that helps me visualize what happens during.

Q1: Do atoms always exists in a state of motion?

Yes

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

Q2: What happens when the motion of an (or more) atoms cease? (i.e. what happens to the element/object when the atoms within is deprived of all motion?)

This cannot happen. It violates the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the Pauli exclusion principle of quantum mechanics.

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

This is a question I have been spending some time thinking about recently, and with what little "research" (online googling )I have made, there does not seem to be a "simple" enough answer that helps me visualize what happens during.

Q1: Do atoms always exists in a state of motion?

Yes

Interesting, and thank you.

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

Q2: What happens when the motion of an (or more) atoms cease? (i.e. what happens to the element/object when the atoms within is deprived of all motion?)

This cannot happen. It violates the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the Pauli exclusion principle of quantum mechanics.

I see.

Does "This cannot happen" means, it is an absolute impossibility for atoms to cease all motion, or because it violates the uncertainty principle? I am not even sure if both are the same question (I apologize if it is )

My aptitude in matters of science is rather limited to visualizing thought into a type of "playback animation" in my mind. Could you give a descriptive mental image on what happens if it is possible for atoms to cease all motion?

Thank you in advance.

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

This is a question I have been spending some time thinking about recently, and with what little "research" (online googling )I have made, there does not seem to be a "simple" enough answer that helps me visualize what happens during.

Q1: Do atoms always exists in a state of motion?

Yes

Interesting, and thank you.

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

Q2: What happens when the motion of an (or more) atoms cease? (i.e. what happens to the element/object when the atoms within is deprived of all motion?)

This cannot happen. It violates the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the Pauli exclusion principle of quantum mechanics.

I see.

Does "This cannot happen" means, it is an absolute impossibility for atoms to cease all motion, or because it violates the uncertainty principle? I am not even sure if both are the same question (I apologize if it is )

My aptitude in matters of science is rather limited to visualizing thought into a type of "playback animation" in my mind. Could you give a descriptive mental image on what happens if it is possible for atoms to cease all motion?

Thank you in advance.

thay can change time direction in there motion .

Originally Posted by Water Nosfim

thay can change time direction in there motion .

If it is somehow possible for atoms to cease all motion, that phenomena would change the flow of time?

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

Originally Posted by Water Nosfim

thay can change time direction in there motion .

If it is somehow possible for atoms to cease all motion, that phenomena would change the flow of time?

the flow of time in the atom

Originally Posted by Water Nosfim

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

Originally Posted by Water Nosfim

thay can change time direction in there motion .

If it is somehow possible for atoms to cease all motion, that phenomena would change the flow of time?

the flow of time in the atom

I am embarrassed to ask another question. (I sincerely hope you do not mind )
What does the change in the flow of time in an atom(s) do exactly?

Example: Would it mean the universe would unravel? Matter/Energy breaks down or gets annihilated? etc...

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

Originally Posted by Water Nosfim

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

Originally Posted by Water Nosfim

thay can change time direction in there motion .

If it is somehow possible for atoms to cease all motion, that phenomena would change the flow of time?

the flow of time in the atom

I am embarrassed to ask another question. (I sincerely hope you do not mind )
What does the change in the flow of time in an atom(s) do exactly?

Example: Would it mean the universe would unravel? Matter/Energy breaks down or gets annihilated? etc...

it dose same order and disorder .

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

What does the change in the flow of time in an atom(s) do exactly?

There is no such thing. Water Nosfim is apparently delusional.

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

What does the change in the flow of time in an atom(s) do exactly?

There is no such thing. Water Nosfim is apparently delusional.

Maybe this thread should be moved? You know delusions Doc? You criticise much about others yet fail to realise when someone is asking a question or presenting a theory. I presented a thread on hyper-dimensions and not once did I present a theory on anything, but merely asked a question. You jumped in and had it moved. Thanks mate.



This forum is a puppet-show sham. I suggest anyone who wants a decent discussion to move to another forum. Don't waste your time here.

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

Does "This cannot happen" means, it is an absolute impossibility for atoms to cease all motion, or because it violates the uncertainty principle? I am not even sure if both are the same question (I apologize if it is )

It is impossible according to our understanding of the physical world due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and Pauli Exclusion Principle.

Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

What does the change in the flow of time in an atom(s) do exactly?

There is no such thing. Water Nosfim is apparently delusional.

Maybe this thread should be moved? You know delusions Doc? You criticise much about others yet fail to realise when someone is asking a question or presenting a theory. I presented a thread on hyper-dimensions and not once did I present a theory on anything, but merely asked a question. You jumped in and had it moved. Thanks mate.



This forum is a puppet-show sham. I suggest anyone who wants a decent discussion to move to another forum. Don't waste your time here.

You are quite welcome.

That discussin had no place in a Physics forum.

You might want to take the time and effort to find out what a dimension actually is.

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

What does the change in the flow of time in an atom(s) do exactly?

There is no such thing. Water Nosfim is apparently delusional.

Maybe this thread should be moved? You know delusions Doc? You criticise much about others yet fail to realise when someone is asking a question or presenting a theory. I presented a thread on hyper-dimensions and not once did I present a theory on anything, but merely asked a question. You jumped in and had it moved. Thanks mate.



This forum is a puppet-show sham. I suggest anyone who wants a decent discussion to move to another forum. Don't waste your time here.

You are quite welcome.

That discussin had no place in a Physics forum.

You might want to take the time and effort to find out what a dimension actually is.

LOL.
I'm reading "Warped Passages" (Lisa Randall) currently. It's pretty easy reading. You might be surprised but I agree with what she says. She is a Harvard physicist. She could be more specific on how to "define" extra-dimensions. But generally, she makes a good introduction. Can I ask what your definition of space is, and then time. Then can I ask how the space-time continuum principal can be applied to hyperdimensions. Doc Rocket, you jump a lot......you know, to conclusions, about others. Be a little more scientific with your communication with others. You may find they are not the monsters of ignorance you make them out to be. Thanks again for having a completely valid thread of physics moved to pseudoscience, your loss not mine.

The word "Dimension" can have many very different meanings, in physics, in mathematics or in fiction for example you will find many different meanings of that word. Even in mathematics you will find quite a few different meanings of the word. So, you'd better whether you are discussion fractal geometry, parallel universes, dimension analysis, degrees of freedom, vector spaces, Dell Dimension or whatever... But preferably in the original thread.

To get back to the original question, my first thought when I read it was "in motion relative to what?" but lets assume the question was whether for example an electron could be completely still relative to the nucleus. Now that would state that the momentum of the electron is well defined. Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle would then give us that the position of the electron would be completely undefined.

Originally Posted by jakotaco

The word "Dimension" can have many very different meanings, in physics, in mathematics or in fiction for example you will find many different meanings of that word. Even in mathematics you will find quite a few different meanings of the word.

Nope.

The notions of dimension that you find in mathematics are actually consistent with one another, althogh some definitions do extend the idea of dimension to situations that are simply not covered by the initial definitions that you learn in elementry classes. Thus, fractal dimensions are consistent with the dimensions defined for ordinary Euclidean spaces, but extend the notion to topological spaces that are a bit more complicated. Physics uses mathematics and the definition of dimension of physics is nothing different from that of mathematics.

Fiction is quite another thing. That is why it is --- fiction. Rather like your post.

Originally Posted by DrRocket

This cannot happen. It violates the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the Pauli exclusion principle of quantum mechanics.

Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician

It is impossible according to our understanding of the physical world due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and Pauli Exclusion Principle.

Noted, and thank you both (again )

I guess I better study up more on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and the Pauli exclusion principle of quantum mechanics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisenb...inty_principle

Wiki is good for getting a simple understanding of the concepts.

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

This is a question I have been spending some time thinking about recently, and with what little "research" (online googling )I have made, there does not seem to be a "simple" enough answer that helps me visualize what happens during.

Q1: Do atoms always exists in a state of motion?

Q2: What happens when the motion of an (or more) atoms cease? (i.e. what happens to the element/object when the atoms within is deprived of all motion?)

You can get very close to zero motion by cryogenically cooling something down to near zero Kelvin, though perfect zero Kelvin is impossible for the reason Dr. Rocket mentioned that there's no way to violate the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle states that you can never know both a particle's location and its speed with perfect accuracy, and that the better you know one, the worse you know the other. Basically, if you could know that a particle's speed had reached perfect zero, then you would lose all ability to determine its location. (Maybe not even be able to determine what galaxy it is located in..... and how do you observe something that can't even be determined to be located anywhere?)

There is a matter state called a "Bose Einstein Condensate" which comes pretty close and exhibits some interesting properties. Basically, the effects predicted by Quantum Mechanics begin to manifest themselves on a larger, more observable, scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose%E2...ein_condensate

because our scooby doo has such a beginners view on physics (no offence meant) I think we should first remind them that as the post above mine demonstrates, generaly adding or subtracting energy (in this case heat) can speed up or slow down the motion of an atom. It is impossible for an atom to stop moving (for one elementary reason) because it is impossible to remove all of the energy from the atom.

Originally Posted by kojax

Originally Posted by scoobydoo1

This is a question I have been spending some time thinking about recently, and with what little "research" (online googling )I have made, there does not seem to be a "simple" enough answer that helps me visualize what happens during.

Q1: Do atoms always exists in a state of motion?

Q2: What happens when the motion of an (or more) atoms cease? (i.e. what happens to the element/object when the atoms within is deprived of all motion?)

You can get very close to zero motion by cryogenically cooling something down to near zero Kelvin, though perfect zero Kelvin is impossible for the reason Dr. Rocket mentioned that there's no way to violate the uncertainty principle. The uncertainty principle states that you can never know both a particle's location and its speed with perfect accuracy, and that the better you know one, the worse you know the other. Basically, if you could know that a particle's speed had reached perfect zero, then you would lose all ability to determine its location. (Maybe not even be able to determine what galaxy it is located in..... and how do you observe something that can't even be determined to be located anywhere?)

There is a matter state called a "Bose Einstein Condensate" which comes pretty close and exhibits some interesting properties. Basically, the effects predicted by Quantum Mechanics begin to manifest themselves on a larger, more observable, scale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bose%E2...ein_condensate

Even AT absolute zero there is some motion and some energy. That is the pont of the Pauli exclusion principle.

The inabiliyt to get to absolute zero from a temperature above zero s a different kettle of fish, and is not due to either the exclusion principle or the uncertainty principle. It is due to the second law of thermodynamics.

it get statistic and if you play for forever aventliy it hapend . thanks

Oops. Thatnks for clearing that up for me DrRocket

Even AT absolute zero there is some motion and some energy. That is the pont of the Pauli exclusion principle.

The inabiliyt to get to absolute zero from a temperature above zero s a different kettle of fish, and is not due to either the exclusion principle or the uncertainty principle. It is due to the second law of thermodynamics.

I was mistaken

Hey scoobydoo1, there is no need to be so embarrassed about not knowing your way around physics (I don't know much more than high school level stuff either, but I find it very interesting nonetheless). You appear to have the right attitude for learning and the most important bit; a keen interest. This is a pretty rare combination. Well done and I hope you enjoy your stay here.

PS: Don't mind Quest and Water Nosfim. They don't have much of a grasp of the subject matter and are happy to treat their own ill-conceived notions as legitimate, no matter how many times a qualified person like DrRocket tries to point them in the right direction.