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Thread: the world is like a goldfish bowl

  1. #1 the world is like a goldfish bowl 
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    Prof. Hawking said the world is like a goldfish bowl. Just as the fish knows only the bowl, we only know what we see. Hawking simply does not understand what science is, for him to make such a statement!

    A science theory is based upon mathematics, which is a collection of arbitrary fully consistent statements. The theory must also agree somewhat with observations and experiments. The fish does not understand mathematics, as mathematics is a human creation, and so the fish does not have a scientific understanding of the world.

    General Relativity is a valid theory, as the mathematics is consistent, and many observations (not all) agree with the theory. Quantum mechanics is also a valid theory. However, these conflict, as the mathematical assumptions are different. We can live with this conflict, as relativity deals with large objects like planets, and quantum mechanics deals with small objects like atoms. Currently, it is impossible to measure the gravitational force between two atoms, and so we cannot make an experiment to determine which theory is correct.

    Hawking speaks a lot about the nature of the universe. Here he is out of his league. There is currently no theory of cosmology, that is, there is no consistent mathematical framework that agrees with observations. The reason is that current theories, general relativity and quantum mechanics conflict with each other, and both are needed for a correct explanation of cosmology. All discussions of cosmology, such as the Big Bang idea, are hypotheses, that is, guesses, not rigorous scientific theories. We must be careful not to confuse theories, which are rigorous explanations, with hypotheses, which are guesses hopefully paving the way to a theory.


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  3. #2  
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    and you obviously don't understand what a metaphor is.


    "I don't know what weapons will be used in World War Three, but World war four will be fought with sticks and stones."
    -Albert Einstein

    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

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  4. #3 Re: the world is like a goldfish bowl 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford
    Prof. Hawking said the world is like a goldfish bowl. Just as the fish knows only the bowl, we only know what we see. Hawking simply does not understand what science is, for him to make such a statement!

    A science theory is based upon mathematics, which is a collection of arbitrary fully consistent statements. The theory must also agree somewhat with observations and experiments. The fish does not understand mathematics, as mathematics is a human creation, and so the fish does not have a scientific understanding of the world.

    General Relativity is a valid theory, as the mathematics is consistent, and many observations (not all) agree with the theory. Quantum mechanics is also a valid theory. However, these conflict, as the mathematical assumptions are different. We can live with this conflict, as relativity deals with large objects like planets, and quantum mechanics deals with small objects like atoms. Currently, it is impossible to measure the gravitational force between two atoms, and so we cannot make an experiment to determine which theory is correct.

    Hawking speaks a lot about the nature of the universe. Here he is out of his league. There is currently no theory of cosmology, that is, there is no consistent mathematical framework that agrees with observations. The reason is that current theories, general relativity and quantum mechanics conflict with each other, and both are needed for a correct explanation of cosmology. All discussions of cosmology, such as the Big Bang idea, are hypotheses, that is, guesses, not rigorous scientific theories. We must be careful not to confuse theories, which are rigorous explanations, with hypotheses, which are guesses hopefully paving the way to a theory.
    Some of what you say is correct and some is just wrong. Too much is just plain wrong to address line by line.

    It is pretty clear that Hawking knows a GREAT DEAL more of both mathematics and physics than you do. Your statement concerning what Hawking knows are clearly in the "just wrong" pile.
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    i believe Hawking was referring to the idea that there is a point where we cant see any further, because the light beyond that point hasn't reached us yet. anything that may be beyond that point, we can't see, so it is just theoretical that it may or may not be there. And seeing that we don't even know everything about what we can see. how are we able to know about what we can't.

    Also I agree with DrRocket. I'm pretty sure that Stephen Hawking knows a lot more about mathematics that either you or i do seeing as he does all of it in his head, because he doesn't have the luxury of dexterity.
    "I don't know what weapons will be used in World War Three, but World war four will be fought with sticks and stones."
    -Albert Einstein

    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"
    -Ralph Waldo Emerson

    http://www.religiouscartoons.net/dis...album=4&pos=10
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  6. #5 Re: the world is like a goldfish bowl 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford
    Prof. Hawking said the world is like a goldfish bowl. Just as the fish knows only the bowl, we only know what we see. Hawking simply does not understand what science is, for him to make such a statement!

    A science theory is based upon mathematics, which is a collection of arbitrary fully consistent statements. The theory must also agree somewhat with observations and experiments. The fish does not understand mathematics, as mathematics is a human creation, and so the fish does not have a scientific understanding of the world.

    General Relativity is a valid theory, as the mathematics is consistent, and many observations (not all) agree with the theory. Quantum mechanics is also a valid theory. However, these conflict, as the mathematical assumptions are different. We can live with this conflict, as relativity deals with large objects like planets, and quantum mechanics deals with small objects like atoms. Currently, it is impossible to measure the gravitational force between two atoms, and so we cannot make an experiment to determine which theory is correct.

    Hawking speaks a lot about the nature of the universe. Here he is out of his league. There is currently no theory of cosmology, that is, there is no consistent mathematical framework that agrees with observations. The reason is that current theories, general relativity and quantum mechanics conflict with each other, and both are needed for a correct explanation of cosmology. All discussions of cosmology, such as the Big Bang idea, are hypotheses, that is, guesses, not rigorous scientific theories. We must be careful not to confuse theories, which are rigorous explanations, with hypotheses, which are guesses hopefully paving the way to a theory.
    I agree with you, Hawking and his men hiding behind him are getting paid for what? For wasting their time? Nobody is going to attack Hawking because everybody would be concerned about his health, he might react with a stroke if you cross him. Everybody can come up with a new theory, sprinkle every page with a pretty equation, and voila, it's a bestseller. Why would you waste your time with string theory or M theory if we don't even know exactly what an atom and a quark look like? Is there any proof of these strings? No. Is there any proof about electrons spinning around the nucleus? No. It takes more FAITH to believe in Hawking than to believe in God.
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  7. #6  
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    Sure, prof. Hawking gets a lot more attention than his peers based a lot on his physical condition. And I wouldn't be surprised to see a thread on string theory being moved to another subforum if it would first have been posted in this physics forum before he published his results. But there is no denying that he is a very intelligent person and is pretty damn good at mathematics and physics, to say the least.
    "Complexity is stupidity disguised as intellect."
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  8. #7 Re: the world is like a goldfish bowl 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myuncle
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford
    Prof. Hawking said the world is like a goldfish bowl. Just as the fish knows only the bowl, we only know what we see. Hawking simply does not understand what science is, for him to make such a statement!

    A science theory is based upon mathematics, which is a collection of arbitrary fully consistent statements. The theory must also agree somewhat with observations and experiments. The fish does not understand mathematics, as mathematics is a human creation, and so the fish does not have a scientific understanding of the world.

    General Relativity is a valid theory, as the mathematics is consistent, and many observations (not all) agree with the theory. Quantum mechanics is also a valid theory. However, these conflict, as the mathematical assumptions are different. We can live with this conflict, as relativity deals with large objects like planets, and quantum mechanics deals with small objects like atoms. Currently, it is impossible to measure the gravitational force between two atoms, and so we cannot make an experiment to determine which theory is correct.

    Hawking speaks a lot about the nature of the universe. Here he is out of his league. There is currently no theory of cosmology, that is, there is no consistent mathematical framework that agrees with observations. The reason is that current theories, general relativity and quantum mechanics conflict with each other, and both are needed for a correct explanation of cosmology. All discussions of cosmology, such as the Big Bang idea, are hypotheses, that is, guesses, not rigorous scientific theories. We must be careful not to confuse theories, which are rigorous explanations, with hypotheses, which are guesses hopefully paving the way to a theory.
    I agree with you, Hawking and his men hiding behind him are getting paid for what? For wasting their time? Nobody is going to attack Hawking because everybody would be concerned about his health, he might react with a stroke if you cross him. Everybody can come up with a new theory, sprinkle every page with a pretty equation, and voila, it's a bestseller. Why would you waste your time with string theory or M theory if we don't even know exactly what an atom and a quark look like? Is there any proof of these strings? No. Is there any proof about electrons spinning around the nucleus? No. It takes more FAITH to believe in Hawking than to believe in God.
    Wrong. Not just ordinary wrong. But stupendously wrong, demonstrating total lack of understanding and knowledge of science and the process of scientific research. Dumb as a box of rocks.

    The results of Hawking that are accepted are based on solid mathematical work and have been checked by experts. He does not get a "pass" because of his health condition.

    On the other hand, Hawking has made many speculative conjectures, some of which have turned out to be right, some of which have turned out to be wrong,a nd some of which are still open. He did not receive a "pass" on any of these either,and it vigorously challenged by competent members of the sceitific community -- a group that does not include you.

    Skepticism is an important part of science, and it is good to be skeptical. But one should be skeptical in an informed and reasoned way, which you have failed to do.
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  9. #8 The World is like a fish boal 
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    Prof. Hawking said the world is like a fish bowl. This is a metaphor. Just as the fish is aware only of the bowl, and not of the reality of the room, we people may be aware only of the universe we see, and unaware of possible universes outside of our universe. Other physicists have said similar things.

    This is a serious mistake, grossly misunderstanding the nature of science. There are two types of situations. One situation consists of observations we cannot explain. We know, based upon Gödel’s work, that there will always exist observations that no current theory can explain. The other situation consists of observations that current theories explain.

    For the first type, unexplained observations, we must be careful not to act like primitive pagans, who explained things saying the gods did it. We must not say there is another reality beyond science that can explain it. We must avoid acting like the ancient Egyptians who believed in the existence of another universe where people went after death. Instead, we must accept the fact that we do not have an explanation, and spend efforts to finding explanations. The research may have to fight political pressures from people who think they know the answers and are not interested in research.

    The second type consists of valid theories. If a theory states that something cannot be observed, then it does not exist within the framework of the theory. An example is the “inside” of a black hole within the theory of General Relativity, for the theory states that this cannot be observed. Another example is the position of molecules of superfluid helium. The theory tells us that we can only say the molecules are in the container. As liquid helium cools below the lambda point, the meaning of the positions disappear.

    When Hawking and others speak about other universes, they refer to the first type, unexplained observations, for currently there is no valid theory of cosmology that unifies gravitation and quantum mechanics. They are reverting to primitive paganism, trying to say things that sound scientific but really are not. It is sad that leading scientists do not properly understand the philosophy of science, and consequently mislead the public.

    This same misguided thinking also has many scientists supporting the anthropomorphic global warming hoax, ignoring clear evidence of a 15-century warming-cooling cycle.
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  10. #9 Re: The World is like a fish boal 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford
    This same misguided thinking also has many scientists supporting the anthropomorphic global warming hoax
    Yep. And evolution is a big hairy lie, too... As is relativity and Keynsian economic modeling.



    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Wrong. Not just ordinary wrong. But stupendously wrong, demonstrating total lack of understanding and knowledge
    QFT
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  11. #10 Let us be rational 
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    It is vital for our continued advancement as people to try to be as rational as possible, and to try to minimize emotional outbursts.

    I said anthropomorphic global warming is a hoax. You replied sarcastically “evolution is a big hairy lie, too... As is relativity and Keynsian economic modeling” What is your educational background? Where did you go to school? Just because I criticize anthropomorphic global warming does not mean I criticize evolution or relativity! BTW, do you believe in Keynsian economic modeling, which is also a hoax?

    “Wrong. Not just ordinary wrong…” Sorry, this is emotional, and therefore unacceptable. You must clearly state the reasons for being wrong.
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  12. #11  
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    The point is that I disregard people who deny humans impact on climate change the same way I disregard people who deny evolution and relativity. I threw in Keynsian economics because I've noticed a large overlap on the Venn diagram with that, too, among these people. If you're interested, I've also noticed they tend to vote republican and watch fox news, as well.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    The point is that I disregard people who deny humans impact on climate change the same way I disregard people who deny evolution and relativity. I threw in Keynsian economics because I've noticed a large overlap on the Venn diagram with that, too, among these people. If you're interested, I've also noticed they tend to vote republican and watch fox news, as well.
    I do believe "humans impact on climate change". I also accept evolution and relativity, but I am not convinced that Keynesian economics (deficit spending) provides the best route out of recession; an academic and intellectual case can be made for a different approach which is not necessarily wrong because it appears to clash with your ideas on "fair play".
    I also object to the impression I get, from a number of your posts, that there is a range or group of opinions/ideas agreed on, and held in common, by the "good guys".
    I have never watched Fox News either!
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by inow
    The point is that I disregard people who deny humans impact on climate change .
    You must have a total disregard for many many people, enjoy it.
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