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Thread: superluminical info is posible imo

  1. #1 superluminical info is posible imo 
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    all right you take a 100 digit generator with another entanglemented number generator

    before the ship departs you check that the first digit generator has given the sequence:

    000000000000000000....

    you go with your entangled digit generator one light year away without having generated a row of digits

    but you know when you have arrived to the distant planet when you generate a number you will obtain 1111111111111111111111....

    in earth they want to send you the instant message pair over the message unpair how they do it? tossing the pair digits and leaving the uneven as they are so in the far away planet they will obtain:

    1917151716141519101415181910

    now the message unpair: they do toss two digits and leave two untossed so in that distant planet they will obtain:

    1187117511871199116511431107113211 1(the statistical error in information

    do you think this could be viable?


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  3. #2 Re: superluminical info is posible imo 
    Moderator Moderator Janus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm
    all right you take a 100 digit generator with another entanglemented number generator

    before the ship departs you check that the first digit generator has given the sequence:

    000000000000000000....

    you go with your entangled digit generator one light year away without having generated a row of digits

    but you know when you have arrived to the distant planet when you generate a number you will obtain 1111111111111111111111....

    in earth they want to send you the instant message pair over the message unpair how they do it? tossing the pair digits and leaving the uneven as they are so in the far away planet they will obtain:

    1917151716141519101415181910

    now the message unpair: they do toss two digits and leave two untossed so in that distant planet they will obtain:

    1187117511871199116511431107113211 1(the statistical error in information

    do you think this could be viable?
    Entanglement only lasts until you make the first measurement.
    Going back to the electron example: The electrons are only entangled up to the point when you measure one of the electrons. After that, they no longer have any need to maintain opposite states.

    So after you get your first set of O and 1's, generating a second set of numbers on the first generator will have no effect on the second. Entanglement will have been lost.


    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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  4. #3  
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    i havent explained clearly:

    i entangle 10 atoms of H on earth with ten atoms on a ship

    i randomize the atoms on earth and get 10 ones then i know when i randomize atoms on the ship i will get 10 zeros but leave both randomizers untouched

    the ship arrives at one light year distance and from earth i want to send the message yes then i randomize the ten atoms again in earth if i want to send the message no i dont randomize the atoms again in earth randomizer

    then the people of the far away planet to know the instant message just have to randomize their ten atoms

    if they get 10 zeros that means in earth they didnt randomize again their atoms, the message no

    if they get an aleatory numbers of 0 and 1 means earth has randomized the atoms a second time, the message yes
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  5. #4  
    Moderator Moderator Janus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm
    i havent explained clearly:

    i entangle 10 atoms of H on earth with ten atoms on a ship

    i randomize the atoms on earth and get 10 ones then i know when i randomize atoms on the ship i will get 10 zeros but leave both randomizers untouched

    the ship arrives at one light year distance and from earth i want to send the message yes then i randomize the ten atoms again in earth if i want to send the message no i dont randomize the atoms again in earth randomizer

    then the people of the far away planet to know the instant message just have to randomize their ten atoms

    if they get 10 zeros that means in earth they didnt randomize again their atoms, the message no

    if they get an aleatory numbers of 0 and 1 means earth has randomized the atoms a second time, the message yes
    Once you know that that you will get 10 ones on one randomizer, it's "game over". It doesn't matter what you do with the other randomizer, it will come up 10 zeros (it will no longer be random) and the entangkement will be broken. Nothing you do to the first randomizer after that will change anything. If the second randomizer does come up with a random number after that, then it does so on its own without any connection to the first one.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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  6. #5  
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    No, when you get 10 1s, you've already measured the atoms. All you can say is that when you measure a 1 on Earth, the ship will measure a 0, and when you measure a 0 on Earth, the ship will measure a 1. But overall, both have a 50/50 chance of getting either a 0 or a 1. Without some other form of communication, you wouldn't know if the 1 you got was because Earth measured a 0, or because you measured first and got a 1 randomly. Of course, you could try other things like encoding information into the particular ways a set of particles are entangled, but that runs into the same basic problems. When you do all the math, what you get is that you can never tell the results apart from random chance without some other means of communication. Basically, unless you compare the two results, they look random.

    Edit: Janus beat me to it.
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    if this link is true what would happen if the game is played simultaneoulsy by two persons separated light years away

    maybe is not info for that reverse reason but certainly is comunication to achieve a common goal:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_pseudo-telepathy

    also i understand if toss a coin twice and get heads and tails and afterward toss the entangled coin it will show for sure heads and then the entanglement is broken, is this correct?
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  8. #7  
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    Well, there are different ways to entangle things, but assuming they were entangled to show the same face and you only had one coin, yes, that should be right.

    As for your first point, there are two problems I see. First, define simultaneous. Because of light speed lag and relativistic effects, there's a big problem with assuming that two distant things happen at the same time, because different observers will say they happened at different times, and they'll also be correct.

    Second, as it points out in that article, there is no actual information transfer. It just exploits the nature of an entangled system to increase the odds of certain games. You'll notice that in the example game, the game can be played by either player at any time after the entangled pair is separated and the results will be the same. If you think about it that way, it's fairly obvious that there's no communication going on during the game, only before when they take half the pair.

    (I feel I should point out that most scientists would love for it to be possible to communicate faster than light. I'm sure almost everyone that works with quantum mechanics has tried to make it work, at least in passing. All they've managed to show is that it can't be done, to the best of our understanding.)
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  9. #8  
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    pseudo info is actually anbiguos info but info in the end of the day for example:

    my girlfriend and i are at oposites extremes of a light year big planet at its equator

    i made a radio comunication telling her to go east as soon as she received the message while i go west one year after the message was sent

    too bad the baddies intercepted the message and capture us having 1 year time to set their trap, too bad, doesnt really matter lest rewind time

    i send her an entangled coin with one of mine and we have agreed tails is west and heads is east

    the coin has taken one year to arrive

    but then we both toss the coin at the same time and instatnly agree on a direction to meet

    now the baddies though they have intercepted the message as well they dont know in which half of the planet set their trap

    so with this INSTANT agreement we have at least 50% chance to meet without problems while with subliminal coms we had 0 chance

    then if the pseudo info we transfered instantly increased our chances of meeting without problems infinitally, 0 chance to 50% chance, i think it can be considered usefull info

    maybe as not much info as we would like but enough info to succed in certain situations
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by luxtpm

    so with this INSTANT agreement we have at least 50% chance to meet without problems while with subliminal coms we had 0 chance

    then if the pseudo info we transfered instantly increased our chances of meeting without problems infinitally, 0 chance to 50% chance, i think it can be considered usefull info
    But this" "instantaneous" part has nothing to do with the increased success. Only the encrypting of the information in the entangled coin. The coin and the "code" for reading it had to be sent at sub-light speeds.

    What you did was "hide" the content of the message from anyone trying to intercept it, you didn't send any FTL message. IOW, from the moment you decided to send the message to the time they got it was still over a year.

    Ever since entanglement was first demonstrated its utility as an encryption tool was touted.

    The fly in the ointment is this. If the coin is intercepted, they will flip it and get a result, which breaks the entanglement. If they then send the coin on to you, and you flip it not knowing that it has already been flipped, you end up with only a 50/50 chance of getting a result that will end with the two of you meeting.

    Even if they do not have the code to read the coin's message, they have increased their chances of catching at least one of you to by going to one side of the planet to 75%. (there's a 50% chance you'll end up on opposite sides of each other, getting one of you captured and a 25% chance that you'll both end up on the same side as they are, getting you both captured.)
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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  11. #10  
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    Agreed. The only communication that actually took place in that was when you passed off the coin and its meaning. Again, if you flipped your coin two days (or even two years) early, the results would still be the same.
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    i think my problem is im not very sure what is information then

    on the one hand you can not send info but you can send pseudoinfo instantly to succed in certain games

    as this link explains:

    http://events.ccc.de/congress/2005/f...CC05screen.pdf

    But if quantum entanglement
    allows the player to win always
    ● Qubits are not like boxes with a predetermined
    instruction sheet (aka hidden variables).
    ● Communication was not possible.
    ● Neither does entanglement allow us to transfer
    information by itself.
    ● Yet, the players can always win...

    (this link explain in games in which previous agrements would be useless unless based on entanglement like mermin magic square)

    so you cant send info nor comunicate but this pseudo info still allows to always win a game that otherwise youd have much less chances

    so you could play at light years distance and via instant entanglement succed

    while if it was not instant you just would succed less in the game

    so the fact this issue is instant allows you not to comunicate but to win in certain games always over a 50% chance

    so the fact is intantaneous can make a difference

    but i suppose i agree with mainstream: you cant send instant info but you can send instant pseudoinfo, and this pseudoinfo can be very usefull

    so now its clear that saying nothing can tralve faster than light is wrong, pseudoinfo can
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    That may be true (or it may not), but you can't use the pseudo-info to actually send a message. You can use properties of it to do useful things, but communication isn't one of them.

    Also, you're missing one important point here. The coins don't have to be flipped at the same time for this to work. You could flip one today and one next year and it'd still work, assuming the entanglement hadn't decayed.

    (Ok, at this point I'm running out of my limited understanding of QM, so I'll have to let someone else explain further.)
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    As far as I can follow this pseudo-information thing, information is actually sent at light speed or slower, the sender just doesn't know what he sent.
    To know what he sent, he has to determine it on both sides.
    In the coin example: you send the coin mid-flip, or flip it in a closed box. Opening one box determines both. Picking up one of the coins ends the connection. If I understand it correctly, that is.

    Also in the games, nothing travels faster than light, for the simple reason that for every answer you have to send something at light speed or less. It's not because you only determine what is sent after it has arrived that you can exclude the time to send it.
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  15. #14  
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    It sounds like entanglement isn't very magical. It's just like if there was a factory that always prints a double headed coin, and a double tailed coin, then randomly sends one coin to you, and one coin to someone else.

    So, when two particles become entangled, all that means is that they have opposite spin to each other? There's nothing more involved?
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  16. #15  
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    Two particles can be entangled in infinitely many ways. They could have opposite spins, the same spin, spins at right angles to each other, or anywhere in between, and it only gets more complicated when you add more particles.

    With three coins, you could have it so that any one coin has a 50/50 chance of heads or tails, but you'll never flip all three heads or all three tails.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiMaster
    Two particles can be entangled in infinitely many ways. They could have opposite spins, the same spin, spins at right angles to each other, or anywhere in between, and it only gets more complicated when you add more particles.

    With three coins, you could have it so that any one coin has a 50/50 chance of heads or tails, but you'll never flip all three heads or all three tails.
    The disheartening thing is that apparently all the entangled information was added in the moment the entanglement was created. It seems there is no way to add information to the system later on and have it be detected in one of the other parts of the entangled group.
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  18. #17  
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    Yes. While there's something going on between the distant elements, there's no way to extract anything useful from that something. (I'm pretty sure that it can be shown that there must be something between the distant elements to explain their behavior, though.)
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiMaster
    (I'm pretty sure that it can be shown that there must be something between the distant elements to explain their behavior, though.)
    I have no idea what this sentence means. Can you be more precise ?
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  20. #19  
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    Er, let's see. I meant that, as far as my understanding goes, the behavior of entangled particles can't be explained by assuming that all communication between the particles occurs when their entangled, and something must happen between them when they're measured, even though we can't make use of this to transmit information. Of course, my understanding doesn't go that far, so I could be wrong about that.
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  21. #20  
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    So here's an experiment that seems to use entanglement in an interesting way: It's called the "Delayed Choice Quantum Eraser"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed...quantum_eraser


    They channel light through a 2 slit interferometer and then use a crystal to divide each photon into an entangled pair. Then they send one photon of the pair (we'll call it photon #1) through a half silvered mirror.

    The half silvered mirror either sends it somewhere where "which path" information will be measured or somewhere where it won't. If you're familiar with the 2 slit interferometer experiment, then you know that a different interference pattern emerges if you measure which slit the photon passed through, and another emerges if you don't.

    Photon #2, on the other hand, never has its "which path" information measured. In the picture, Photon #2 is always the photon going up from the slit, whether it's blue or red. (Blue and Red just tell you which slit it went through) The green objects are half silvered mirrors. The silver objects are ordinary mirrors. The black objects are measuring devices. "BBO" is the crystal that divides the photons after they come through the 2 slits.

    It turns out that, in cases where photon #1 has its "which path" information measured, photon #2 also acts as though its "which path" information was measured, even though it wasn't. It creates the interference pattern that corresponds with having its path measured. Or well... in a sense it was measured, though, because the 2 photons split after going through the slits, so measuring one is kind of like measuring the other.

    So I'm wondering, what effect does a photon's spin (or other quantum information) have on the likelihood of it being reflected vs. transmitted by a half silvered mirror? It looks, from this experiment, like information between the photons is not only being transmitted faster-than-light, but actually being transmitted backwards in time. Photon #2 arrives at the measuring device, and has its interference pattern type measured (at least statistically), before photon #1 even reaches the half silvered mirror.

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  22. #21  
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    I've looked at that experiment a little before and it's pretty interesting. I have no idea how it all works but there are a few things I can point out. First, the spin isn't the only thing that can be entangled. It's just one of the things that gets talked about a lot. Also, Faster-Than-Light and Time-Traveling are pretty much the same thing, so if you accept the possibility of one, you shouldn't be surprised by the other.
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