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Thread: Wormholes, and the event horizon

  1. #1 Wormholes, and the event horizon 
    Forum Ph.D. Heinsbergrelatz's Avatar
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    recently i have been constantly coming up with intense curiosity about the inter galactic hypothetical gateways in space known as the "wormhole"
    according to what i have earned in knowledge about these tunnels is that they are a form of black hole, on the event horizon. but lets say these tunnels give a passage way via FTL travel, what universe would they exist in on the other side? would it be same as the one you left?
    my question here is that, how do you possibly rip this fabric of space and time? what form of requirements does it need for anyone in this universe to rip and play with time and space?


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  3. #2  
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    Are you actually under the dellusion that they exist?
    I would like proof of their existance before I worry about how they work
    that's just me.


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  4. #3 Re: Wormholes, and the event horizon 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinsbergrelatz
    recently i have been constantly coming up with intense curiosity about the inter galactic hypothetical gateways in space known as the "wormhole"
    according to what i have earned in knowledge about these tunnels is that they are a form of black hole, on the event horizon. but lets say these tunnels give a passage way via FTL travel, what universe would they exist in on the other side? would it be same as the one you left?
    my question here is that, how do you possibly rip this fabric of space and time? what form of requirements does it need for anyone in this universe to rip and play with time and space?
    Wormholes are not a form of black hole. They are totally different.

    For one thing black holes exist.

    Wormholes are purely conjectural, and they are not stable. It has been show that the only way to keep a wormhole open is withe a HUGE amount of negative energy, and no one knows if such a thing exists. There is no reason to think that it does.

    Space-time is not a fabric. You can't rip it, sew it or embroider it.
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  5. #4  
    Forum Ph.D. Heinsbergrelatz's Avatar
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    ooo really? its not a fabric?
    then how else would you put it? yes i know exotic matter (also known as negative energy) is required to hold the wormhole open, but how exactly would that work?
    yes you are perfectly right, , normally the gravity possessed would crush the throat of the wormhole, which makes it unstable indeed, but the repulsive force of negative energy would just solve the unstable problem.(but requirement of that much exotic matter is another topic to look at)
    wormholes are infact balckholes, but the difference is that black holes are infact tunnels that you cannot come out, of, so basically a blocked end, due to the implosion of gravity you cannot imagine, but wormholes allow blackholes to be traversable, an object can enter and come out, through what we call a "white hole", of course its much too detailed to cover and talk about the whole concept of deriving in a mathematical way down to the solutions of Roy kerr to Schwarzschild with einsteins general relativity along with its metrics.
    but you can easily say they dont exist, because we are in a position, such that our technology is just incomparable to the technology required as what would expect to create a wormhole,we might even have to view this in a fiction sort of way, for those who are million years ahead of us, this is exactly why i said its only "hypothetical"
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinsbergrelatz
    wormholes are infact balckholes,
    Nope
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  7. #6  
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    You can belive a lot of things if you do not have to prove them.
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  8. #7  
    Forum Ph.D. Heinsbergrelatz's Avatar
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    you know what, to make you understand more easily, ill just put it this way;"all worm holes are black holes, but not all black holes are worm holes'
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinsbergrelatz
    you know what, to make you understand more easily, ill just put it this way;"all worm holes are black holes, but not all black holes are worm holes'
    It is all fine and good for you to claim things, but you can't expect people to just take your word for it. For instance, could you please give a reputable source explaining what a "white hole" is and how it relates to black holes and worm holes?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinsbergrelatz
    you know what, to make you understand more easily, ill just put it this way;"all worm holes are black holes, but not all black holes are worm holes'
    nope

    there is a theoretical possibility of two black holes conncecting to form a wormhole though
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  11. #10  
    Forum Ph.D. Heinsbergrelatz's Avatar
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    sources? well, how should i put this... there are so many articles and books on cosmology i went through, but one of them was "hyperspace" by one of my role model professor Michio Kaku, and one of the chapters in there was "black holes and parallel universes" yea thats where i got some of my sources from. but my actual question was, "how can we harness the power to rip the fabric of space and time", and the response by DR ROCKET was "space and time is not a fabric", and "fizzlooney" gave an answer of "proof and evidence"
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinsbergrelatz
    sources? well, how should i put this... there are so many articles and books on cosmology i went through, but one of them was "hyperspace" by one of my role model professor Michio Kaku, and one of the chapters in there was "black holes and parallel universes" yea thats where i got some of my sources from. but my actual question was, "how can we harness the power to rip the fabric of space and time", and the response by DR ROCKET was "space and time is not a fabric", and "fizzlooney" gave an answer of "proof and evidence"
    You received a proper answer to a nonsensical question.
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  13. #12  
    Forum Ph.D. Heinsbergrelatz's Avatar
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    i think you are rather more nonsensesical from making such judgments of science you dont even know
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    You do have the slight problem here of wormholes being completely hypothetical, and that we don't really know what goes on inside a black hole, so you're idea about them being a 'blocked tunnel' is also completely hypothetical. And then there's the question, is it actually possible to rip space-time? And then there's the whole problem of parallel universes and white holes also being completely hypothetical.
    The wise man believes half of what he reads. If he knew which half to believe, he'd be a much wiser man.
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  15. #14  
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    no actually i think the term "hypothetical" is the way to address this topic, because it is conjectural, its only a possibility, so im preety much assuming in this case im asking here.
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  16. #15  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinsbergrelatz
    i think you are rather more nonsensesical from making such judgments of science you dont even know
    Sonny,

    You have no idea what I know.

    But it is quite clear to me from your posts just how much you don't know.

    You have no idea what you are talking about.
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  17. #16  
    Forum Ph.D. Heinsbergrelatz's Avatar
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    oo trust me, judging a person of what they know through a few mere posts?
    i can pretty much tell how absurd this is going to get
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  18. #17  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope MagiMaster's Avatar
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    Actually, after hanging around the forums long enough, it's pretty easy to gauge a person's level of understanding through just a few posts, unless they're trying to be deceptive.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagiMaster
    Actually, after hanging around the forums long enough, it's pretty easy to gauge a person's level of understanding through just a few posts, unless they're trying to be deceptive.
    Quite.
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  20. #19  
    Forum Ph.D. Heinsbergrelatz's Avatar
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    well, i wont really interfere with what you think
    but, you know, it would have been smarter for you to actually give me some evidence instead of plainly saying "Nope" with no backed up archives or data whatsoever to my response.. i do respect your opinion, i just want to know why you think like that, in particular, with your "Information"
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinsbergrelatz
    well, i wont really interfere with what you think
    but, you know, it would have been smarter for you to actually give me some evidence instead of plainly saying "Nope" with no backed up archives or data whatsoever to my response.. i do respect your opinion, i just want to know why you think like that, in particular, with your "Information"
    physics
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  22. #21  
    Forum Ph.D. Heinsbergrelatz's Avatar
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    well alright smart guy
    i get your explanation of Physics
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heinsbergrelatz
    well alright smart guy
    i get your explanation of Physics
    The evidence suggests otherwise.
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  24. #23  
    Forum Ph.D. Heinsbergrelatz's Avatar
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    yes indeed, your "ingenious" evidence
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  25. #24  
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    Show me some evidence of the existance of worm holes and I might take some of you seriously about this topic.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzlooney
    Show me some evidence of the existance of worm holes and I might take some of you seriously about this topic.
    1. Hawking remarks "Any reasonable theory of quantum gravity will allow closed universes to branch off from our nearly flat region of spacetime. I describe the possible quantum states of these closed universes. They correspond to wormholes which connect two asymptotically Euclidean regions, or two parts of the same asymptotically Euclidean region."
    From Hawking, S.W. Wormholes in Spacetime Phys. Rev. D 37, 904 - 910 (1988)
    2. The theoretical possibility for a phenomenon that is wholly consistent with a mathematical description of the universe that matches observation deserves attention.

    Together these two points constitute evidence. You can argue about the quality of that evidence, but not - I think - about its existence.


    Heinsbergrelatz, being young, arrogant and smug is almost as satisfying as being old, arrogant and right. You may wish to ponder that before your next post.
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    to be honest, (i have very laughable physics education), i think that if a blackhole is created on the quantum level, and expanded using very high energy lasers (giga or megawatt) the problem of powerful gravity and spaghetification, is quickly overcome by the great volume of the event horizon and the lack of mass in the singularity. noone ever said a blackhole converts energy to mass...so what about volume, is what i say....just my opinion nothing more.
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  28. #27  
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    The necrothread strikes again...
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  29. #28  
    Moderator Moderator Markus Hanke's Avatar
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    Hm, interesting discussion. Allow me to throw in a few point myself :

    1. The tensor equations of GR are somewhat peculiar in that all physically observable geometries are exact mathematical solutions, however, not all mathematical solutions are necessarily physically possible. What that means is - yes, wormhole metrics in general are solutions of the GR field equations, but that does not constitute final evidence that wormholes actually exist
    2. A wormhole would be a region of high spacetime curvature, which means a high energy density; in such a region quantum effects will be significant. Since we do not yet have a conistent theory of quantum gravity, it is impossible to predict the possibility or behaviour of wormholes. General relativity alone is not sufficient here, so it might turn out that these constructs are allowed by GR, but excluded due to quantum gravity effects. At the moment we don't really know.
    3. It is currently unclear whether macroscopic wormholes would be stable phenomena or not. There is a distinct possibility that a stable wormhole would need a gravitational singularity at each end to remain stable; this of course would mean that all stable wormholes are hidden behind event horizons and are therefore not causally connected to the rest of the universe ( which would make sense since it avoids all the pitfalls of causality violation ).
    4. A wormhole, if such a thing exists, could connect two regions in separate, otherwise non-interacting universes, or two regions within the same space-time which are either spatially or temporally separated ( or both ). The obvious problem here is causality violations, since such a wormhole could conceivably permit time travel.
    5. Even assuming that wormholes are macroscopic, stable phenomena not hidden behind event horizons ( in my mind a rather distant possibility at best ), it would be somewhat unlikely that one could just fly through them in a spacecraft. Depending on the exact geometry, the tidal forces inherent in a wormhole would either crush any object entering it, or tear it apart.
    6. If (5) holds true and wormholes are real, then in theory it should be possibly to artificially create one given a certain level of technological achievement, and the availability of vast amounts of the correct kind of energy in just the right configuration. The problem here is that you could only exactly localize one end of the wormhole at a time - there is no conceivable mechanism to control where and when the other end forms.
    7. One should also not forget that the spacetime curvature of a wormhole has no saddle points, which means that spacetime curves in the same direction on both ends. While it would be easy to enter such a wormhole, it might be very hard or even impossible to escape it out the other side. In fact, a wormhole might be a trap in that incoming matter reaches equilibrium at the equivalent of a Lagrange point ( the wormhole's "centre" so to speak ). Such a wormhole would very quickly deteriorate into a singularity due to quantum effects; I suppose this may be another counter-argument against its existence

    In general I would not categorically exclude the possibility that stable macroscopic wormholes exist, but personally I find it somewhat unlikely. The final answer will come once we develop a consistent quantum gravity model.
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