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Thread: Entropy question

  1. #1 Entropy question 
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    I'm a little stumped here, as I am having a conversation on entropy at the moment, where my opponent claims that the end result of universal entropy is that all matter and energy will slowly diminish to nothing, and I am firmly against this idea. Anyone have a better theory/reasoning for me?

    Mirroring thread in Astronomy, just for good measure.


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  3. #2 Re: Entropy question 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane_Mathematician
    I'm a little stumped here, as I am having a conversation on entropy at the moment, where my opponent claims that the end result of universal entropy is that all matter and energy will slowly diminish to nothing, and I am firmly against this idea. Anyone have a better theory/reasoning for me?

    Mirroring thread in Astronomy, just for good measure.
    It would help if you put the question in perspective.

    What do you mean by "universal entropy" ?

    Also what is meant by "all matter and energy will slowly diminish to nothing" ? This appears to be a rather total violation of conservation of matter-energy. Is that the intent ?

    A link to your ongoing debate might help.

    Entropy, in classical thermodynamics, relates to energy that can be used to do work, but not all energy.


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    I believe what Arcane is referring to by universal entropy, is the entropy of the universe, which is postulated to be increasing based on the second law of thermodynamics, leading to an eventual heat death of the universe where the temperature of the universe reaches a thermal equilibrium, a little above absolute zero.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe
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    Apparently they found the half life of a proton, so yes, it seems the "black death" will eventually occur. However we do not have to worry about that unless you plan on living 15 billion + years
    Of all the wonders in the universe, none is likely more fascinating and complicated than human nature.

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

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    Thank you so much for the post. It's really useful.


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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
    Apparently they found the half life of a proton, so yes, it seems the "black death" will eventually occur. However we do not have to worry about that unless you plan on living 15 billion + years
    If you have a reference for that statement it would be most interesting.

    The last that I heard, there had been no detection of proton decay, so there was no more than a gigantic lower bound for the half-life.
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    http://www.thescienceforum.com/viewt...=202949#202949

    the 21st page of this is mine and PhoenixG's debate. Harold got my meaning, the total entropy of the universe, and I'm siding with you, it seems to me that it would break the conservation of matter/energy laws. He postulated that there would eventually be nothing left in the universe but 'heat'. no other matter or energy, and as all the matter disappeared, the heat would vanish with it. It makes no sense to me, so I was hoping to be enlightened.
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    I believe I first heard that on the Science Channel.

    "Despite the lack of observational evidence for proton decay, some grand unification theories require it. According to some such theories, the proton has a half-life of about 10^36 years, and decays into a positron and a neutral pion that itself immediately decays into 2 gamma ray photons:

    p → e+ + π0
    π0 → 2γ
    "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay

    Not proven of course, but how much truly is proven in science?

    The idea makes sense to me.
    Of all the wonders in the universe, none is likely more fascinating and complicated than human nature.

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

    "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence"

    -Einstein

    http://boinc.berkeley.edu/download.php

    Use your computing strength for science!
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
    I believe I first heard that on the Science Channel.

    "Despite the lack of observational evidence for proton decay, some grand unification theories require it. According to some such theories, the proton has a half-life of about 10^36 years, and decays into a positron and a neutral pion that itself immediately decays into 2 gamma ray photons:

    p → e+ + π0
    π0 → 2γ
    "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay

    Not proven of course, but how much truly is proven in science?

    The idea makes sense to me.
    It's not so much about the "proof" as it is about the evidence and the observed.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Fusion
    I believe I first heard that on the Science Channel.

    "Despite the lack of observational evidence for proton decay, some grand unification theories require it. According to some such theories, the proton has a half-life of about 10^36 years, and decays into a positron and a neutral pion that itself immediately decays into 2 gamma ray photons:

    p → e+ + π0
    π0 → 2γ
    "

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proton_decay

    Not proven of course, but how much truly is proven in science?

    The idea makes sense to me.
    The point is that the decay of a proton is a pretty big deal from a theoretical perspective. You can't simply decide that one or another must be correct without experimental data and then use the purported "truth" of that theory to conclude that a proton can decay. It works the other way around.
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    Isn't universal expansion necessary for the increase of entropy though? Maybe even responsible for the rate of the increase?
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    I believe what Arcane is referring to by universal entropy, is the entropy of the universe, which is postulated to be increasing based on the second law of thermodynamics, leading to an eventual heat death of the universe where the temperature of the universe reaches a thermal equilibrium, a little above absolute zero.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe
    This is my position as well. Since A_M didn't like my links, we are here now.

    EDIT: fwiw, this is the link that I provided to support my argument.
    "PhoenixG makes me puke that why I quoted him." - esbo
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    Where thoes this heat goes to? The second law of thermodynamics,just cannot contradict the 1st law,and even GR...GR holds that time began with the universe,and entropy is a function of time,which makes it a function of a function,as time is a function of matter...the universe is all that there is...i do not see how something can turn into nothing. For this to happen,matter must be distroyed which we now know that it is not done.rather the entropy increase to a point where everything that exis becomes pure heat...and if this is the case,i will predict the birth of another universe.(owing to 1st law of thermodynamics).
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  15. #14  
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    Where thoes this heat goes to? The second law of thermodynamics,just cannot contradict the 1st law,and even GR...GR holds that time began with the universe,and entropy is a function of time,which makes it a function of a function,as time is a function of matter...the universe is all that there is...i do not see how something can turn into nothing. For this to happen,matter must be distroyed which we now know that it is not done.rather the entropy increase to a point where everything that exis becomes pure heat...and if this is the case,i will predict the birth of another universe.(owing to 1st law of thermodynamics).
    "I am sorry for making this letter longer than usual.I actually lacked the time to make it shorter."###
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    well in my thinking waveforms are actually the movement of particles. with no particles there is no movement and therefore no waveforms everything would be only 1dimension i know space would be 3d but because everything will either be a line movement or nothing at all there will be energy at absolute zero just no movement. There might still be particles but if they have no movement no waveforms but their magnetic fields etc. but if gravity is universal is this not incorrect?
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  17. #16  
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    I cannot see how the universality of gravity violates the above..although uncertainty principle voilates it..even at zero kelvin,movement still pesist at the atomic level...in answering this question,there cannot be analogies that might contradicts accepted laws.
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    absolute zero would have to be forced it isnt natural it doesnt exsist
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