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Thread: Time dialation & evolution

  1. #1 Time dialation & evolution 
    Forum Freshman deadcat's Avatar
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    I got an interesting question and figured I'd bring it up here b/c I can always get some good leads here.

    Now:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia - Special Relativity
    This theory has a wide range of consequences which have been experimentally verified, including counter-intuitive ones such as length contraction, time dilation and relativity of simultaneity, contradicting the classical notion that the duration of the time interval between two events is equal for all observers.
    this raised interest into:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia - Time Dilation
    Gravitational time dilation tests
    Pound, Rebka in 1959 measured the very slight gravitational red shift in the frequency of light emitted at a lower height, where Earth's gravitational field is relatively more intense. The results were within 10% of the predictions of general relativity. Later Pound and Snider (in 1964) derived an even closer result of 1%. This effect is as predicted by gravitational time dilation.
    so at a lower height, where the gravitational field is relatively more intense time is going slower relative to a higher height, not by very much what so ever, but theoretically over millions of years animals will evolve slower at very low height compared to the exact same animal at a very high height, considering height of the landscape was the only difference.

    anyone know of any examples of this or test that have been done about this? Or contradictions that would make this false?


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  3. #2  
    Forum Masters Degree Numsgil's Avatar
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    On Earth this is negligible. Probably any planet where it isn't negligible you're talking about tidal forces ripping the planet to shreds. But there were a series of scifi stories written in either Asimov's or Analog with this premise. With the people in the valleys aging rapidly.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Junior c186282's Avatar
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    I would image that populations would move to new environments faster than the accumulated effects of GR induced time dilation could evolutionarily effect a population.

    But it is a net idea.
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  5. #4  
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    i read asimov's works in "foundation" and the series after it, he does not mention it as wel as memory serves.

    however the idea does arrive in one episode of startrek voyager where the crew notices a planet that seems to be moving very fast, they go to take a look and get stuck becaus of their temporal difference, they cannot escape from the area where the temporal difference of the planet is first present. the people of the planet see a ship in the sky that doesn't move, they send some people up for what seems like two hours to the voyager crew but is more like 100 years to the planet, they end up trying to knock the thing out of the sky with rapidly advancing antimater technology. in the end the person returns and explains it to the people, they send up some super shipps around 200 of their years later and pull them out with transwarp engines and uber-tractor-beams.

    i think this relates to your idea in that the population evolves and experiences tiem faster than usual. however it goes in the opposite direction that should be possible because the fastest rate of time according to einstein should be in space where light has the greatest speed, and thus any temporal difference should make the planet slower.
    physics: accurate, objective, boring
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  6. #5 Re: Time dialation & evolution 
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    I got an interesting question and figured I'd bring it up here b/c I can always get some good leads here.

    Now:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia - Special Relativity
    This theory has a wide range of consequences which have been experimentally verified, including counter-intuitive ones such as length contraction, time dilation and relativity of simultaneity, contradicting the classical notion that the duration of the time interval between two events is equal for all observers.
    this raised interest into:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia - Time Dilation
    Gravitational time dilation tests
    Pound, Rebka in 1959 measured the very slight gravitational red shift in the frequency of light emitted at a lower height, where Earth's gravitational field is relatively more intense. The results were within 10% of the predictions of general relativity. Later Pound and Snider (in 1964) derived an even closer result of 1%. This effect is as predicted by gravitational time dilation.
    so at a lower height, where the gravitational field is relatively more intense time is going slower relative to a higher height, not by very much what so ever, but theoretically over millions of years animals will evolve slower at very low height compared to the exact same animal at a very high height, considering height of the landscape was the only difference.

    anyone know of any examples of this or test that have been done about this? Or contradictions that would make this false?
    The effect is too slight to make a difference in biological evolution. Besides species are quite capable of going up and down hills and that mixing would obviate any miniscule general relativistic effect.
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  7. #6 Re: Time dialation & evolution 
    Forum Freshman deadcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    The effect is too slight to make a difference in biological evolution. Besides species are quite capable of going up and down hills and that mixing would obviate any miniscule general relativistic effect.
    right, that's why I say:
    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    theoretically over millions of years
    and:
    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    considering height of the landscape was the only difference
    many species like to stay in the same geographic location as well, that's why I ask. I'm quite aware animals have the ability to move, it's pretty obvious. but bears for example, living on a high mountain should theoretically evolve faster relative to the bears in a deep valley over millions of years and only slightly faster.

    you're making it kind of difficult to use a "theoretical" situation don't you think?
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by saul
    i read asimov's works in "foundation" and the series after it, he does not mention it as wel as memory serves.

    however the idea does arrive in one episode of startrek voyager where the crew notices a planet that seems to be moving very fast, they go to take a look and get stuck becaus of their temporal difference, they cannot escape from the area where the temporal difference of the planet is first present. the people of the planet see a ship in the sky that doesn't move, they send some people up for what seems like two hours to the voyager crew but is more like 100 years to the planet, they end up trying to knock the thing out of the sky with rapidly advancing antimater technology. in the end the person returns and explains it to the people, they send up some super shipps around 200 of their years later and pull them out with transwarp engines and uber-tractor-beams.

    i think this relates to your idea in that the population evolves and experiences tiem faster than usual. however it goes in the opposite direction that should be possible because the fastest rate of time according to einstein should be in space where light has the greatest speed, and thus any temporal difference should make the planet slower.
    lol, thanks for your input though, interesting story, makes me want to watch that episode.

    for this part though:

    Quote Originally Posted by saul
    however it goes in the opposite direction that should be possible because the fastest rate of time according to einstein should be in space where light has the greatest speed, and thus any temporal difference should make the planet slower
    I got the answer, check this here out:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia - Time Dilation
    In general relativity, clocks at lower potentials in a gravitational field such as in proximity to a planet are found to be running slower. This gravitational time dilation is only briefly mentioned in this article; see that article (and also gravitational red shift) for a more detailed discussion.
    Taking this kind of stuff seriously is new to me, I assumed it was all theoretical but then read into GPS and that they have to calculate that difference or the clocks will run fast (other things have also been brought to my attention about this subject too). Since then, this stuff has really interested me.
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  9. #8 Re: Time dialation & evolution 
    Moderator Moderator Janus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    The effect is too slight to make a difference in biological evolution. Besides species are quite capable of going up and down hills and that mixing would obviate any miniscule general relativistic effect.
    right, that's why I say:
    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    theoretically over millions of years
    and:
    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    considering height of the landscape was the only difference
    many species like to stay in the same geographic location as well, that's why I ask. I'm quite aware animals have the ability to move, it's pretty obvious. but bears for example, living on a high mountain should theoretically evolve faster relative to the bears in a deep valley over millions of years and only slightly faster.

    you're making it kind of difficult to use a "theoretical" situation don't you think?
    The problem is that even with your theoretical situation, the time dilation rate is sooo small that over the entire time since the Earth first formed, the time difference between sea level and a 2 km altitude would only amount to about 11 minutes.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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  10. #9 Re: Time dialation & evolution 
    Forum Freshman deadcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janus
    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    The effect is too slight to make a difference in biological evolution. Besides species are quite capable of going up and down hills and that mixing would obviate any miniscule general relativistic effect.
    right, that's why I say:
    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    theoretically over millions of years
    and:
    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    considering height of the landscape was the only difference
    many species like to stay in the same geographic location as well, that's why I ask. I'm quite aware animals have the ability to move, it's pretty obvious. but bears for example, living on a high mountain should theoretically evolve faster relative to the bears in a deep valley over millions of years and only slightly faster.

    you're making it kind of difficult to use a "theoretical" situation don't you think?
    The problem is that even with your theoretical situation, the time dilation rate is sooo small that over the entire time since the Earth first formed, the time difference between sea level and a 2 km altitude would only amount to about 11 minutes.
    Do you have a reference for this? I believe you I would just like to read further into this.
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  11. #10 Re: Time dialation & evolution 
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    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    Quote Originally Posted by Janus
    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    The effect is too slight to make a difference in biological evolution. Besides species are quite capable of going up and down hills and that mixing would obviate any miniscule general relativistic effect.
    right, that's why I say:
    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    theoretically over millions of years
    and:
    Quote Originally Posted by deadcat
    considering height of the landscape was the only difference
    many species like to stay in the same geographic location as well, that's why I ask. I'm quite aware animals have the ability to move, it's pretty obvious. but bears for example, living on a high mountain should theoretically evolve faster relative to the bears in a deep valley over millions of years and only slightly faster.

    you're making it kind of difficult to use a "theoretical" situation don't you think?
    The problem is that even with your theoretical situation, the time dilation rate is sooo small that over the entire time since the Earth first formed, the time difference between sea level and a 2 km altitude would only amount to about 11 minutes.
    Do you have a reference for this? I believe you I would just like to read further into this.
    Google will get you this Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravita..._time_dilation


    The time dilation factor is 1 + gh / c2, which for a height of 2 km is approximately
    so if the age of the earth is approximately 5 billion years the net time dilation is about years or about 1 second. That is short even for the evolutionary period of a virus.
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  12. #11 Re: Time dialation & evolution 
    Forum Freshman deadcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket

    Google will get you this Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravita..._time_dilation


    The time dilation factor is 1 + gh / c2, which for a height of 2 km is approximately
    so if the age of the earth is approximately 5 billion years the net time dilation is about years or about 1 second. That is short even for the evolutionary period of a virus.
    wow, cool. thanks man.
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  13. #12 Re: Time dialation & evolution 
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Google will get you this Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravita..._time_dilation


    The time dilation factor is 1 + gh / c2, which for a height of 2 km is approximately
    so if the age of the earth is approximately 5 billion years the net time dilation is about years or about 1 second. That is short even for the evolutionary period of a virus.
    Okay, I went back and recalculated my answer,(using a different method) and did find a mistake, But the answer came out to the order of 9.5 hrs, not one sec.

    And when I use the formula given by you I get:



    Which again works out to about 9.5 hrs over 5 Gy.
    "Men are apt to mistake the strength of their feelings for the strength of their argument.
    The heated mind resents the chill touch & relentless scrutiny of logic"-W.E. Gladstone


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  14. #13 Re: Time dialation & evolution 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janus
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Google will get you this Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravita..._time_dilation


    The time dilation factor is 1 + gh / c2, which for a height of 2 km is approximately
    so if the age of the earth is approximately 5 billion years the net time dilation is about years or about 1 second. That is short even for the evolutionary period of a virus.
    Okay, I went back and recalculated my answer,(using a different method) and did find a mistake, But the answer came out to the order of 9.5 hrs, not one sec.

    And when I use the formula given by you I get:



    Which again works out to about 9.5 hrs over 5 Gy.
    You are correct, I screwed up doing the initial calculation in my head ( by two orders of magnitude when I used c = 3x (cm/s) rather than c = 3 x m/s. When you square that it results in an error of 4 orders of magnitude. I was also approximating the gravitational acceleration as 10 m/s^2 just to make the arithmetic easy.

    No matter, the effect is very small with respect to evolutionary time scales over the age of the earth.
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  15. #14 Re: Time dialation & evolution 
    Forum Freshman deadcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janus
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRocket
    Google will get you this Wiki article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravita..._time_dilation


    The time dilation factor is 1 + gh / c2, which for a height of 2 km is approximately
    so if the age of the earth is approximately 5 billion years the net time dilation is about years or about 1 second. That is short even for the evolutionary period of a virus.
    Okay, I went back and recalculated my answer,(using a different method) and did find a mistake, But the answer came out to the order of 9.5 hrs, not one sec.

    And when I use the formula given by you I get:



    Which again works out to about 9.5 hrs over 5 Gy.
    still 9 1/2 hrs though, lol. No way in hell, that can affect evolution. Glad someone else did the calculations too, adds more confidence.

    It's good there's a spot like this were people can go to get help with these kinds of questions.
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