# Thread: Considering Time and Space by themselves

1. It is fairly easy to comprehend each dimension of space.

The first dimension can be imagined by visualizing a straight line. That line has one measurable dimension, its length.
The second dimension can be imagined by visualizing a picture on a piece of paper. That picture has two measurable dimensions, its width and its height.
The third dimension can be imagined by visualizing a geometric shape. It has length, width and of course, height.

It is also (in a strictly general sense) fairly easy to understand time's relationship with these dimensions. It allows different configurations of the matter or medium on which those space dimensions exists to flow smoothly through causal actions and link moments together.

My question is, since the above is a simple way to comprehend each dimension of space by itself, with time excluded, how might one comprehend a dimension of time without the existence of space? And if so does this mean that space is a precursor to time?

2.

3. Why not just stick to one theory of something. Like, just a thoery of time that has three dimensional time points, ORRRR, just a theory of space that can be whatever you want (and then ask yourself what time it is..........."what time is it). And then ask how relevant your thinking is in knowing what the time is.

4. But there must be something more fundamental to time and space themselves. For instance, time cannot simply need three spatial dimensions because it is easy enough to imagine how it could exist with only two or one spatial dimension.

Similarily, if you take the stance that a dimension is only another means of getting from point A to B [just think.. in a one spatial dimensional universe, adding another dimension allows for a person to travel from A to B in a longer path in which they could avoid obsticles, which might otherwise be unavoidable if they were in a one dimensional universe in which they would be blocked by anything directly between points A and B. An added dimension also adds on the near-limitless number of possibilities in which paths a person could take to get from A to B, as opposed to the one possible path in the one spatial dimension. Of course by adding a third dimension, you only exponentiate the number of possible paths that person could take.. if they were suddenly able to fly for instance.

This is where me begin to wonder what a forth spatial dimension might look like.. we can assume it would exponentiate further the number of ways we could get from point A to B, I do not know how a spatial dimension could do that.. but a time dimension can.

With the addition of a time dimension, travelling from point A to B becomes possible because your location can now change within space from A to B. Obvious enough? Okay, so now lets consider what a second time dimension might look like!

If a spatial dimension allows you to get from point A to B in just one direction, and our one time dimension only allows us to get from one given point in time to another by allowing time to simply flow - would a second time dimension not likely allow us to go from point A (in time) to point B (in time) without simply following one path? The only way I can visualize this is that if a second time dimension runs perpendicular to our first time dimension (just as the first two spatial dimensions exist perpendicular to one another) then it would not allow for time travel really, but in my oppinion, likely the ability to dialate time. As a person were to move further from the time dimension "y" value of 0 (if the time dimension "x" were the one we experience) they would be able to continue on their own relative course through spacetime while moving more slowly relative to the passage of a single linear course of time. This makes me wonder if gravity's affect on time dialation may not be related to a secondary time dimension.

5. It is fairly easy to comprehend each dimension of space.
oh stfu

6. lol you're right, my bad

7. Originally Posted by camtaylor17
But there must be something more fundamental to time and space themselves. For instance, time cannot simply need three spatial dimensions because it is easy enough to imagine how it could exist with only two or one spatial dimension.

Similarily, if you take the stance that a dimension is only another means of getting from point A to B [just think.. in a one spatial dimensional universe, adding another dimension allows for a person to travel from A to B in a longer path in which they could avoid obsticles, which might otherwise be unavoidable if they were in a one dimensional universe in which they would be blocked by anything directly between points A and B. An added dimension also adds on the near-limitless number of possibilities in which paths a person could take to get from A to B, as opposed to the one possible path in the one spatial dimension. Of course by adding a third dimension, you only exponentiate the number of possible paths that person could take.. if they were suddenly able to fly for instance.

This is where me begin to wonder what a forth spatial dimension might look like.. we can assume it would exponentiate further the number of ways we could get from point A to B, I do not know how a spatial dimension could do that.. but a time dimension can.

With the addition of a time dimension, travelling from point A to B becomes possible because your location can now change within space from A to B. Obvious enough? Okay, so now lets consider what a second time dimension might look like!

If a spatial dimension allows you to get from point A to B in just one direction, and our one time dimension only allows us to get from one given point in time to another by allowing time to simply flow - would a second time dimension not likely allow us to go from point A (in time) to point B (in time) without simply following one path? The only way I can visualize this is that if a second time dimension runs perpendicular to our first time dimension (just as the first two spatial dimensions exist perpendicular to one another) then it would not allow for time travel really, but in my oppinion, likely the ability to dialate time. As a person were to move further from the time dimension "y" value of 0 (if the time dimension "x" were the one we experience) they would be able to continue on their own relative course through spacetime while moving more slowly relative to the passage of a single linear course of time. This makes me wonder if gravity's affect on time dialation may not be related to a secondary time dimension.
I am not attacking you in anyway. I am just attacking the idea of looking to something phony rather then face down the three dimensional world.

We have yet to understand the three dimensions of space, and you are off to a forth? It sounds like you do not wish to get your hands dirty in the three dimensional world. The job at hand would be to get many others in line so that we can all enjoy infinity, and the 90 percent of science, fools do not wish to have in their lives.

I have had my moments. I see the mountain of ignorance and wasted life and I say there must be some other way. Now I know better. I just bulldoze through it all.

Three dimensions offer infinity. I doubt you will need more then that for anything you wish to accomplish.

If you walked into almost any well equipped professional building, doctors office, blood specialists office, high tech racing engine specialist, and you saw their tools that looked very familiar very boring.
And you told the professionals that used them everyday that you wanted to look for a forth dimensional tool to do whatever it is they do.
They would just say "get to work, and you will see what the real problems are". The work is fun. Absolute total enjoyment. It is the laws, taxation, laziness and inhumanity that makes the most wonderful thing on earth "work" the hell it is.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

8. Wise and true words, William McCormick (or however you would like to be regarded ) However, would you not agree that sometimes the solution to a question can be more easily answered if an imaginary or theoretical element is added into the mix? I do not hope to identify the properties of a fourth spatial dimension or secondary time, but use those properties which we can be fairly certain would exist, and see if they fit into the big picture in a comprehensive, consistent manner. We have a fair ammount of evidence to suggest that there are more dimensions in our universe than the four we perceive, why could at least one of those extras not be temporal or spatial?

9. Originally Posted by camtaylor17
Wise and true words, William McCormick (or however you would like to be regarded ) However, would you not agree that sometimes the solution to a question can be more easily answered if an imaginary or theoretical element is added into the mix? I do not hope to identify the properties of a fourth spatial dimension or secondary time, but use those properties which we can be fairly certain would exist, and see if they fit into the big picture in a comprehensive, consistent manner. We have a fair ammount of evidence to suggest that there are more dimensions in our universe than the four we perceive, why could at least one of those extras not be temporal or spatial?
I just hate to see wasted conversation by individuals I know are far more capable. We can just bulldoze away law makers, with words alone. If we act strongly and to some Godly goal.

George Washington and Benjamin Franklin waited around for years as others just kept silencing them.
By the time they acted so many people had lost faith in ultimate victory, that war became the only thing real to them.
Anything less then war, and the Americans would have thought someone made a crooked deal with England. They would have thought it was just another appeasement that would turn and bite them down the road.

The Boston Tea party was not planed by a bunch of drunks. It was planed much earlier. It was planed by rich land owners who figured out just in time, what was taking place.
England's parliament and seedy characters, some insanely rich, that controlled the parliment, were pitting the American rich against the American poor. By not taxing some items of the rich and over taxing some of the poor. The bottom line was that neither the rich or poor in America had any say.

England was just taxing queerly to cause a break in the union created by the colonists rich and poor. By putting a penny tax on tea, when the rich complained, out of principle alone, as they were expected to. It was thought that the poor would start to think they were just getting the shaft, because they were bearing most or all of the taxes with their hard work.

So the rich said lets dump the tea in the river. And show we are doing it for the right reason and not just money, which was sometimes their motivation.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

10. You raise a good point, there do seem to be a great deal of matters at hand which more priority should be dealt to in intellectual circles. But, what can I say? I (and individuals like me I suppose) cannot help but wonder with great anticipation at questions such as those regarding the origin of the universe, or the relationship between mind and matter. Perhaps attention would be better paid to humanitarian or politial issues, but these are just more fun!

11. Originally Posted by camtaylor17
You raise a good point, there do seem to be a great deal of matters at hand which more priority should be dealt to in intellectual circles. But, what can I say? I (and individuals like me I suppose) cannot help but wonder with great anticipation at questions such as those regarding the origin of the universe, or the relationship between mind and matter. Perhaps attention would be better paid to humanitarian or politial issues, but these are just more fun!

It is not more fun, it is just as much fun as you can have.

You do not know what real fun is in science. Because science only flew in certain parts of the country. For short periods of time. Good educators flocked to it, and quickly spread it. Until it was deemed taboo. Or even illegal to teach.

We have over the years in America had real fun with science, but the moments are often short lived. Science breads manhood, manhood scares most women.

Old universal scientists could often lift huge weights. Or crush and bend metal in their bare hands. Because of all the apparatus they used, and built. It is so much fun to be able to build anything you wish. Use any tool.

It was deemed that if there is a beginning to the universe, it is so far out of our understanding at this time, that there is no need to worry about it.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

12. Well, perhaps.. but I personally cannot believe that the universe logically started with a big bang. I'm not one to doubt the mass opinion of experts, but it just doesn't seem right to me that the should be a beginning or an end.. I have personally wondered about various possible connections between quantum mechanics and gravitation that suggest a more cyclic nature to the universe which involve no singularity at the beginning, and allow for all matter to exist in constant equilibrium.. but that is for a different discussion, haha.

Oh and by the way, I'm from Canada and our government is pretty generous as far as freedom to explore goes.

13. SPACE:
In the beginning, there was nothing but space.

TIME:
Then something came to be. Some term it as the 'Word'.

T&S Interaction:
That something occupied a space so so so tiny. That something was pure force. When the force started covering distance, it became pure energy.

MATTER:
Energy was so thickly heavily concentrated that Matter was born. And rapidly this tiny spec of pure force transformed into energy and matter in all forms.

And POOOOF!!!

do Canada offer research grants generously?

14. But why is the space there? What was the thing which caused time to suddenly jolt into action? And how, in this "space" which i assume is infinite was a spot chosen in which to begin all of this? It just doesn't add up! Its too random for me.
I have to believe the only logical way the universe could be ordered is in a cyclilic fashion. This is the only way you could have any sort of infinite process at work! It all adds up, at every scale of being - from atomic to cellular, organism to cosmological body, even the effects of nature such as meteorological events or the cycling of the hydrosphere, atmosphere and even in extremely long periods the terrasphere - there is one process at work for all of these; each scale of entities is made up of smaller ones, and makes up the larger ones. and each scale of entities also follows natural cycles of birth, reproduction, death, and disintegration. For example:

A cell is one "scale of being". It is made up of various tiny machines which are more or less a team of intricately designed parts which each fulfill specific functions. These parts are comprised of molecules and other atomic structures.
The cell exists in communities (organs) in which it is one of many different types of cells, and within its certain group(organ) it helps to perform a specific function. The combination of this specific function with the other organs results in the complex workings of an organism.

Now, lets replace some of those words to make this a more egocentric view:

An organism (such as a human) is one "scale of being". It is made up of various tiny machines (organs) which are more or less a team of intricately designed parts which each fulfill specific functions. These parts are comprised of cells.
The organism exists in communities (a community doesnt have to be densely populated, it just has to have a general understanding amongst the population as to what the expectations and roles are in that community) in which it is one of many different types of organism (for people, this is obviously much more complex, as professions are in the mix as well), and within its community it helps to perform a specific function. The combination of this specific function with the other organs results in the complex workings of an organism.

One more time.. but i'll sum it up a bit

The planet Earth (or any planet) is a scale of being. Its made up of various components which (like organs to humans) keep it stable and able to renew itself as best possible (as everything in the universe has the ultimate goal of survival). These components on earth would be things such as the biosphere, as well as the physical makeup of our planet. Together, they act like organs in a body, or the various parts that make up a cell, in order to keep the planet regulated and running stable.

The point is, there seems to be a pattern here, and I cannot help but consider the idea that the Universe itself is not, in a similar fashion comprised of smaller elements, say matter and whatnot which are governed by specific laws which exist only because they keep the universe in the natural cycle of things.. that is, stability and regularity.

Something has to make up the sub-atomic, and according to this theory something has to be made of the universe and all of its components. The only suggestion I have is that the laws themselves are the connection between the sub-atomic and cosmologic [and consider that on the grandest of scales it is the forces, and energy which are most important, not matter itself]. If the cosmos needs laws in which to regulate itself, the laws can be the product of the need for the universe to have regularity. In turn, the laws also require a medium on which to act in a 3S1T Dimensional universe. If the laws, acting as organs do in a body, work together they would (again, according to the theory) form bodies which act together in communities, sub-atomic particles acting together in communities to form atoms, the forces, etc. maybe?

This cyclilic pattern occured to be a few months past and has always just make me have a different sort of outlook on the universe itself and, as Lucretius would say, the nature of things.

15. Originally Posted by camtaylor17
Well, perhaps.. but I personally cannot believe that the universe logically started with a big bang. I'm not one to doubt the mass opinion of experts, but it just doesn't seem right to me that the should be a beginning or an end.. I have personally wondered about various possible connections between quantum mechanics and gravitation that suggest a more cyclic nature to the universe which involve no singularity at the beginning, and allow for all matter to exist in constant equilibrium.. but that is for a different discussion, haha.

Oh and by the way, I'm from Canada and our government is pretty generous as far as freedom to explore goes.
Until you show yourself to have guts and unrelenting push to truth. Then you will see your country. They will have you on lock down faster then you can say, Royal Mounted Canadian police.

Most people in your country are on a super high speed roller coaster that is out of control. When there is nothing happening, no current events to think about all is well. Like when the roller coaster is just slowly going up the hill.

As soon as real issues come up that effect their life the roller coaster goes down that super incline. And they just scream inside but no noise comes out.
Nothing is really under their control. They are becoming animals. Reacting to economy, reacting to gasoline shortages. All rather easily avoidable things, if you are in control of your country. Or not living in a fifth world nation.

You might say what does that mean? It means that they are not going to be there to stand for anything. But a meal and a paycheck. Why because the leaders do not stand for anything. They have no manly opinions about anything important.

It also means they are being trained and readied to do anything for a meal and paycheck. Just like their leaders.

But please do not take that to mean, that my servants in Washington DC, are doing anything better. Or that most in America, should not move to a soviet block nation.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

16. Lol, an interesting point. But that is all largely impart to the mass american influence we have suffered (and profited from) over the past 100 years. There have still been a pretty good number of achievements to come out of Canada, ones that have changed the entire world for certain. Telephone anyone?

17. Originally Posted by camtaylor17
Lol, an interesting point. But that is all largely impart to the mass american influence we have suffered (and profited from) over the past 100 years. There have still been a pretty good number of achievements to come out of Canada, ones that have changed the entire world for certain. Telephone anyone?
I never heard of Canada as an inventor of the telephone.

The funny thing about America, is that they like to label us as Capitalists. Rather then that we are the quickest to Capitalize upon a bad situation, and actually profit from it. Rather then to cry over it.

But we Americans in good times actually practice the most powerful form of communism. But communism is for good times. Not bad times. That is why the Russians are viewed as such a stupid people. Because they just practice communism.
They need to put communism aside during bad times and capitalize on the moment.

In America during good times we need to practice more communism.

I have noticed that we Americans are starting to react rather then act as well. Instead of us caring for our fellow Americans up front. We wait till they are down on the ground before we make a motion to help them.
We are reacting not really acting. That is the sign of a fifth world nation. It just reacts to problems. It never acts and takes care of them ahead of time.

We are about to reward the insurance companies, the most irresponsible people, at handling assets, with a free reward. A thank-you for them not doing their job. And in my opinion using loopholes illegally.

About every 60 to seventy five years the insurance companies go belly up. The last time it happened was during World War Two. Even Prudential did not pay dividends. And all this lead to the strict laws for insurance, and guaranteed cash value that was to be kept on hand in ready cash. Not invested. Of course greedy lawyers and businessmen found ways around these laws. And you have the chaos you see before you.

Insurance companies have been heavily invested in property and have inflated the price of property through the use of their enormous funds that were actually supposed to be kept on hand for just such an instance.

Yet we will sick car repossessors, and bounty hunters on those that owe money or have court orders, or traffic warrants against them.

I saw no candidates for "American president" tonight. Both are as phony as a three dollar bill.

The Vietnamese were not beaten by America, because they capitalized.

Sincerely,

William McCormick

18. Ha ha, well perhaps WE are not the inventors of the telephone, upon looking more closely at Wikipedia articles , but Alexander Graham Bell (of Scotland) moved to Canada with his parents and stayed there to develop his technology, until he moved to the States later.

19. Originally Posted by camtaylor17
...scale of being - from atomic to cellular, organism to cosmological body...
There's another dimension for you - scale. AKA frame. Physical space being not entirely a property of it.

Scale, in itself holds some interesting "laws". Things at smaller scales are more numerous. They also travel through space at higher velocities. Because breaking and combining are scale transitions: you break something, the parts necessarily have greater net velocity than the original, and vise versa. The effect of smaller scales on larger scales is progressively more consistent, so that taken to extreme, we get constants (valid for that particular scale). If you make scale infinite (with time and space) you get perfect constants. Conversely, anything at any scale (e.g. us) comprises the constants of much larger scales. I'm unsure if there's a kind of falling/rising through scale going on here, I mean with time and space in the mix. I don't know if any kind of math can deal with multiple infinites (dimensions themselves) in one equation.

***

Yeah Canadians can't claim the telephone without appearing rather desperate. But the snowmobile is all ours dammit!

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