Notices
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: Atmospheric powerplant

  1. #1 Atmospheric powerplant 
    New Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4
    Please, write what is wrong with this reasoning:

    Atmospheric powerplant

    The main idea of global warming is that greenhouse gases prevent the energy from leaving the surface of planet. In the same time the upper layers of the troposphere are much colder and successfully emit the infrared radiation to the outer space. So to stop the global warming it is necessary to organize the moving of the heat from the lower layers of the atmosphere to the upper layers.
    Also we know that the heat engine performs the conversion of heat energy to mechanical work by exploiting the temperature gradient between a hot "source" and a cold "sink". So the moving of the heat from the lower layers of the atmosphere to the upper layers can be done with some output of the mechanical work. The amounts of this mechanical work can be huge as we know on example of a tropical cyclone. The working body of the cyclone is simply the moist air, which releases the heat by water vapour condensation when rises. So to make the atmospheric heat engine it is necessary to make the construction in which the moist air is circulating in organized manner between the lower and upper layers of the troposphere. Therefore the height of this construction has to be about the height of the troposphere. Also this construction has to be able to withstand the strength of the winds. These requirements can make the creation of such constructions too expensive and non profitable.

    To solve the construction problems of the atmospheric heat engine the present synopsis suggest to use the principles of the hot air balloon. If the moist air, which is the working body, will have the average temperature, which is higher then the average surround air temperature, then the atmospheric heat engine will be buoyant. In this case the powerplant will travel with air and it will not be necessary to withstand the winds. Also in this case the construction will be as light and cheap as possible for such a device.
    To get the additional energy to keep the average temperature difference the atmospheric powerplant can convert some part of produced mechanical work back into the heat energy. Also to minimize the necessary temperature difference the device can be constructed as Rozière balloon which has separate chambers for a non-heated lifting gas (such as hydrogen or helium). While traveling over the water surface the atmospheric powerplant can replenish its hydrogen reserve by converting the water into the hydrogen and the oxygen. In this case some part of hydrogen can later be used as fuel to increase the temperature of the working body.
    To transfer the produced energy to the ground the atmospheric powerplant can convert mechanical work to the electricity and then use the cellular network of sockets. The connection and disconnection has to be made on the fly without stopping the powerplant using some device like helicopter. In the seas and oceans such sockets can be placed on special floating platforms with electrical accumulators or devices, which convert the water into the hydrogen and the oxygen.

    The illustrated synopsis:
    http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcvrsh6t_17c859bsfm


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Professor
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    In the circuitous haze of my mind
    Posts
    1,028
    So you essentially want to put a massive specialized wind turbine in the upper levels of the atmosphere. Besides the obvious high cost and engineering difficulties, it could work, though I never learned meteorology/earth sciences in school.


    Of all the wonders in the universe, none is likely more fascinating and complicated than human nature.

    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

    "Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence"

    -Einstein

    http://boinc.berkeley.edu/download.php

    Use your computing strength for science!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Isotope Bunbury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,590
    If I understand your idea, you have an electric heater adding buoyancy to the air so it rises, and in rising it turns a turbine which generates the electricity to power the heater. Is this correct? If so you have a slight problem called the second law of thermodynamics.

    But perhaps I'm not interpreting your idea correctly.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope MagiMaster's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,440
    Is this anything like what you're describing?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Ph.D. Leszek Luchowski's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Gliwice, Poland
    Posts
    807
    Quote Originally Posted by MagiMaster
    Is this anything like what you're describing?
    I have a vague memory of reading about a similar design without the "greenhouse" at the bottom. Tapping the layer of warm air naturally present in the lowest part of the atmosphere over the oceans in late summer, and channelling it upwards in a stable and controlled way. I remember it was supposed to be a huge tall tower, and it would be "started" (or "primed") by burning a lot of fuel at the bottom.

    Of course when watching news from (or actually suffering under) monsters like Cathrina or Ike it's everyone's cherished dream that the beast could be harnessed.
    Leszek. Pronounced [LEH-sheck]. The wondering Slav.
    History teaches us that we don't learn from history.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    If I understand your idea, you have an electric heater adding buoyancy to the air so it rises, and in rising it turns a turbine which generates the electricity to power the heater. Is this correct? If so you have a slight problem called the second law of thermodynamics.

    But perhaps I'm not interpreting your idea correctly.
    The source of energy is the heated surface of earth. The sink - the space. We put the moist air like the working body between them. The part of produced energy is used to heat the working body to control the buoyancy. This part can be minimized by adding the hydrogen chambers. Something like this. :-)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by MagiMaster
    Is this anything like what you're describing?
    Geothermal powerplants do the same but with another things.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Isotope Bunbury's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    2,590
    The source of energy is the heated surface of earth. The sink - the space. We put the moist air like the working body between them.
    This already happens naturally. You are just proposing to put it in a pipe so it can be controlled - is that it? In engineering this is called a thermosyphon.

    The part of produced energy is used to heat the working body
    Power generation turbine/electric heater circuit - efficiency possibly 50%. So up to half the energy you take out through the turbine can be put back by the heater.

    to control the buoyancy. This part can be minimized by adding the hydrogen chambers. Something like this. :-)
    I think you need to clarify how this would be an improvement on natural atmospheric dynamics.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    4
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    The source of energy is the heated surface of earth. The sink - the space. We put the moist air like the working body between them.
    This already happens naturally. You are just proposing to put it in a pipe so it can be controlled - is that it? In engineering this is called a thermosyphon.
    Thank you very much, it is the good name for this. :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    The part of produced energy is used to heat the working body
    Power generation turbine/electric heater circuit - efficiency possibly 50%. So up to half the energy you take out through the turbine can be put back by the heater.
    The good idea, the attempt to generate the electricity will produce some heat, which will be consumed by the working body, because the generator can be placed inside it. :-)
    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    to control the buoyancy. This part can be minimized by adding the hydrogen chambers. Something like this. :-)
    I think you need to clarify how this would be an improvement on natural atmospheric dynamics.
    I hope there can be two improvements:
    100% humidity inside and
    organized circular movement in which the descending flow push ascending flow up

    Welcome to my site
    www.globalfrozing.com
    :-)
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •