Thread: basic question +bonus brainfart

hey,

first let me say my physics education consists of half-remembered year 12 curriculum, and this page http://www.newscientist.com/article/...al-forces.html

i was just confused on how it explained (or didn't explain) why two charges/magnets/whatever would repel eachother.

all it really said on the matter was...

"Two protons repel each other as a virtual photon emitted from one is absorbed by the other."
and
“these photons have only brief existences as they flit in and out of an electrical charge. “

...I dont get it.

What causes these 'virtual' photons to jump out of the proton, if only to loop back around and head home?
And what causes them to change to kinetic energy if they are absorbed into a different proton?

can anyone explain this to me? or link me to a good site for it?

This theory just sounds too dodgy to me, and I was bored, so I made my own


I got a bit carried away thinking about this...read on at your own risk


because of the transfer of photons, and how those photons are distributed (density) through space (inversely exponential), I figure the two charges 'want' to strike an equilibrium, an equal exchange of photons.

for example if one charge was weak and one strong. the strong charge would transfer more photons to the weaker one, due to the afore mentioned 'density', until they had an equal charge. so it seems to me that if something is preventing this exchange from happening (or counter-acting the effects of it), it would force the two charges to repel each other to 'try' to find their equilibrium.

but if something was preventing it, it has to be a third party force, independent from the 2 protons. All i can think of is... antimatter (yeah i said it).

why antimatter you ask? because its mathematical play-doh. and also because it introduces the idea of antigravity.

so this is the part where i patch up my quickly disintegrating theory with antimatter.

For the sake of the theory, the mass of antimatter grows exponentially.

As the stronger charge gets weaker, it gains a large amount of antimatter and looses a small of mass, and as the weaker one gets stronger, it looses a small amount of antimatter, and gains a small amount of mass. so effectively, antigravity *cough* counterbalances the photon exchange quick enough to stop an equilibrium from occurring, hence allowing the repulsion to occur.

so if these two systems operate independently, it would work for equally charged protons too.

i call it, "Lysaught's bulletproof unification theory of everything" or "Lysaught's theory on why antimatter is such a cop-out"

thanks for your time :]

c'mon, this question can't be that hard.

Originally Posted by redrighthand

hey,

first let me say my physics education consists of half-remembered year 12 curriculum, and this page http://www.newscientist.com/article/...al-forces.html

i was just confused on how it explained (or didn't explain) why two charges/magnets/whatever would repel eachother.

all it really said on the matter was...

"Two protons repel each other as a virtual photon emitted from one is absorbed by the other."
and
“these photons have only brief existences as they flit in and out of an electrical charge. “

...I dont get it.

What causes these 'virtual' photons to jump out of the proton, if only to loop back around and head home?
And what causes them to change to kinetic energy if they are absorbed into a different proton?

can anyone explain this to me? or link me to a good site for it?

This theory just sounds too dodgy to me, and I was bored, so I made my own


I got a bit carried away thinking about this...read on at your own risk


because of the transfer of photons, and how those photons are distributed (density) through space (inversely exponential), I figure the two charges 'want' to strike an equilibrium, an equal exchange of photons.

for example if one charge was weak and one strong. the strong charge would transfer more photons to the weaker one, due to the afore mentioned 'density', until they had an equal charge. so it seems to me that if something is preventing this exchange from happening (or counter-acting the effects of it), it would force the two charges to repel each other to 'try' to find their equilibrium.

but if something was preventing it, it has to be a third party force, independent from the 2 protons. All i can think of is... antimatter (yeah i said it).

why antimatter you ask? because its mathematical play-doh. and also because it introduces the idea of antigravity.

so this is the part where i patch up my quickly disintegrating theory with antimatter.

For the sake of the theory, the mass of antimatter grows exponentially.

As the stronger charge gets weaker, it gains a large amount of antimatter and looses a small of mass, and as the weaker one gets stronger, it looses a small amount of antimatter, and gains a small amount of mass. so effectively, antigravity *cough* counterbalances the photon exchange quick enough to stop an equilibrium from occurring, hence allowing the repulsion to occur.

so if these two systems operate independently, it would work for equally charged protons too.

i call it, "Lysaught's bulletproof unification theory of everything" or "Lysaught's theory on why antimatter is such a cop-out"

thanks for your time :]

I am from the old school. When you turn two poles of same polarity towards one another. Either way they create an abundance of free electrons between them, and it is easier for ambient radiation to pass between the magnets then it would be for them to go around the magnets. So they push away from each other.

When poles of opposite polarity are placed together, it is harder for ambient radiation to go between the two magnets and easier to go around the two magnets pushing them together.

There is a distortion in the ambient radiation field near magnets, no matter what. How the magnets are aligned just determines if it is easier for ambient radiation to pass between the magnets pushing them apart, or to go around pushing them together. Much like electricity works.

They closed down Universal Science, saying on this point, an answer was imminent on the point of attraction. There was never a single bit of evidence of attraction on earth. No way to demonstrate attraction, or to explain it. And every proof that there was only repulsion.

When objects move together, they often appear to be attracted to one another. Actually they are not pulled together, they are pushed together, because there is less repulsion between them, then around them.

This is just my simple understanding of how magnets work. Pretty much what I was taught.

http://www.Rockwelder.com/Flash/Magn...MagnetsHow.htm

But I am just an amateur scientist. So you should do your own testing. It usually finds some interesting phenomena never seen before.

And makes for memorable experiences. You learn ratios of power, and distance. Hardness to sound frequency. All kinds of little things you almost cannot believe you recorded, for the next experiment.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

makes alot of sense.

i realise the last illustration doesn't seem to work so well. but if you imagine it in 3d its clear that it would cause congestion.

you've given me a fair bit of 'food for thought'. thanks.

Originally Posted by redrighthand

makes alot of sense.

i realise the last illustration doesn't seem to work so well. but if you imagine it in 3d its clear that it would cause congestion.

you've given me a fair bit of 'food for thought'. thanks.

I cannot draw in the slowed electrons in that last drawing, in the movie and make it look informative. But as you move the two magnets in that last scenario together. You create a block to ambient radiation. Just like a bomb does. When you do this, ambient radiation says get the heck out of my way. And moves them apart, to pass between them.

I am showing the way I was taught ambient radiation is moving around a single magnet. But when two magnets are put closer together, you actually get the ambient radiation slowed more. Perhaps a bit of an increase in angle, as in a bomb. That forces the magnets apart.

Before a high speed blast, you can actually feel on your back, a slight pressure. It is pretty funny, and actually pretty weird. The first couple times it drew my attention away. Also before the blast, you get a slight hearing loss. A high pitched whine. Before the explosion.

I have filmed pretty fast explosive gases. You can capture, the rays heading to the bomb, before the explosion, with a long enough exposure.

http://www.Rockwelder.com/Explosives/blast2.wmv

At nighttime you can actually hear a varying whistling sound as a very visible, white glowing, condensing pressure dome expands away from the explosion. Continuing many miles away. After the blast.

It is funny because most associate the loss of hearing as something after the blast. And the whistling sound with bombs being dropped from planes before the blast. Ha-ha.

That gas in the bag is actually lighter then air. Yet it can set off car alarms for a quarter mile radius. It bent that piece of aluminum that is flying towards the fence. And ruined the "C" clamp that was holding it up. It cracked the heavy baked flower pot. And really got my sister angry. She is just starting to forgive me for it. Ha-ha.

I had a much larger bag then that go off in my hands years ago. I used to light the torch set it to a perfect burn, put it out on my foot, and then fill the bag. After detonating a lot of the bags, I started to get brave and figured I would try it with the warm torch. I do not recommend it for large bags.

One Forth of July, I was doing just that. When I actually saw the torch relight in the bag. My first thought believe it or not, was a kind of a frustrating thought. Kind of like, wow that is going to ruin the bag and waste my time. Ha-ha.
Fortunately I was just kind of pushed back out of the garage. Still standing. A bit hard of hearing. But all and all OK. At least to my standards. Ha-ha.

But since then I went back to the old method, of putting in the oxygen and then the acetylene. It took me to the third bag or try in the movie, to get a mix I was happy with. I have noticed that on different days with different humidity that different mixes make a difference. Even though the gas is isolated in the bag. On muggy days you need a richer mix. More fuel. And on dry days you need more oxygen.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

Originally Posted by redrighthand

hey,

first let me say my physics education consists of half-remembered year 12 curriculum, and this page http://www.newscientist.com/article/...al-forces.html

i was just confused on how it explained (or didn't explain) why two charges/magnets/whatever would repel eachother.

all it really said on the matter was...

"Two protons repel each other as a virtual photon emitted from one is absorbed by the other."
and
“these photons have only brief existences as they flit in and out of an electrical charge. “

...I dont get it.

What causes these 'virtual' photons to jump out of the proton, if only to loop back around and head home?
And what causes them to change to kinetic energy if they are absorbed into a different proton?

can anyone explain this to me? or link me to a good site for it?

This theory just sounds too dodgy to me, and I was bored, so I made my own


I got a bit carried away thinking about this...read on at your own risk


because of the transfer of photons, and how those photons are distributed (density) through space (inversely exponential), I figure the two charges 'want' to strike an equilibrium, an equal exchange of photons.

for example if one charge was weak and one strong. the strong charge would transfer more photons to the weaker one, due to the afore mentioned 'density', until they had an equal charge. so it seems to me that if something is preventing this exchange from happening (or counter-acting the effects of it), it would force the two charges to repel each other to 'try' to find their equilibrium.

but if something was preventing it, it has to be a third party force, independent from the 2 protons. All i can think of is... antimatter (yeah i said it).

why antimatter you ask? because its mathematical play-doh. and also because it introduces the idea of antigravity.

so this is the part where i patch up my quickly disintegrating theory with antimatter.

For the sake of the theory, the mass of antimatter grows exponentially.

As the stronger charge gets weaker, it gains a large amount of antimatter and looses a small of mass, and as the weaker one gets stronger, it looses a small amount of antimatter, and gains a small amount of mass. so effectively, antigravity *cough* counterbalances the photon exchange quick enough to stop an equilibrium from occurring, hence allowing the repulsion to occur.

so if these two systems operate independently, it would work for equally charged protons too.

i call it, "Lysaught's bulletproof unification theory of everything" or "Lysaught's theory on why antimatter is such a cop-out"

thanks for your time :]

There are two ways of looking at the issue of the repulsive force between two positively charged particles such as protons.

Classically you simply have an electrostatic field that results from the positive charges. The force is a result of that field which drops off as the square of the distance from a charged particle. The principle involved is called Coulomb's Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb's_law

In the quantum theory of electromagnetid fields, the field is the result of an exchange of virtual photons, which are the carriers of the electromagnetic force. Nothing "causes" them to be emitted, and that is part of quantum theory. It deals with probabilities rather than with certainties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Despite William's vivid description this has absolutely nothing to do with slowed electrons. In the case of proton-proton repulsin it has nothing to do with electrons at all.

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by redrighthand

hey,

first let me say my physics education consists of half-remembered year 12 curriculum, and this page http://www.newscientist.com/article/...al-forces.html

i was just confused on how it explained (or didn't explain) why two charges/magnets/whatever would repel eachother.

all it really said on the matter was...

"Two protons repel each other as a virtual photon emitted from one is absorbed by the other."
and
“these photons have only brief existences as they flit in and out of an electrical charge. “

...I dont get it.

What causes these 'virtual' photons to jump out of the proton, if only to loop back around and head home?
And what causes them to change to kinetic energy if they are absorbed into a different proton?

can anyone explain this to me? or link me to a good site for it?

This theory just sounds too dodgy to me, and I was bored, so I made my own


I got a bit carried away thinking about this...read on at your own risk


because of the transfer of photons, and how those photons are distributed (density) through space (inversely exponential), I figure the two charges 'want' to strike an equilibrium, an equal exchange of photons.

for example if one charge was weak and one strong. the strong charge would transfer more photons to the weaker one, due to the afore mentioned 'density', until they had an equal charge. so it seems to me that if something is preventing this exchange from happening (or counter-acting the effects of it), it would force the two charges to repel each other to 'try' to find their equilibrium.

but if something was preventing it, it has to be a third party force, independent from the 2 protons. All i can think of is... antimatter (yeah i said it).

why antimatter you ask? because its mathematical play-doh. and also because it introduces the idea of antigravity.

so this is the part where i patch up my quickly disintegrating theory with antimatter.

For the sake of the theory, the mass of antimatter grows exponentially.

As the stronger charge gets weaker, it gains a large amount of antimatter and looses a small of mass, and as the weaker one gets stronger, it looses a small amount of antimatter, and gains a small amount of mass. so effectively, antigravity *cough* counterbalances the photon exchange quick enough to stop an equilibrium from occurring, hence allowing the repulsion to occur.

so if these two systems operate independently, it would work for equally charged protons too.

i call it, "Lysaught's bulletproof unification theory of everything" or "Lysaught's theory on why antimatter is such a cop-out"

thanks for your time :]

There are two ways of looking at the issue of the repulsive force between two positively charged particles such as protons.

Classically you simply have an electrostatic field that results from the positive charges. The force is a result of that field which drops off as the square of the distance from a charged particle. The principle involved is called Coulomb's Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb's_law

In the quantum theory of electromagnetid fields, the field is the result of an exchange of virtual photons, which are the carriers of the electromagnetic force. Nothing "causes" them to be emitted, and that is part of quantum theory. It deals with probabilities rather than with certainties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Despite William's vivid description this has absolutely nothing to do with slowed electrons. In the case of proton-proton repulsin it has nothing to do with electrons at all.

Virtual photons? Oh come on, that is just too unreal.


Take a look at this gif file. The torch on the right has a piece of copper wire in it. The copper wire is fastened on the other end in a vise, that is electrically connected to the aluminum table and then to the welding machine output terminal.

The welding machine is receiving from the work table and vice a charge the same in polarity as a standard 12 volt car battery terminal marked (+). The torch is supplying and is charged with a polarity the same as a standard car battery terminal marked (-).

Watch the GIF animation to see which way things fly, under a couple hundred amps and about 100 volts.

The abundance of electrons is coming from a modern battery, through the (-) marked terminal. As they are coming from the torch in that movie. You can see them repel everything.



It is really not a secret, it is just misunderstood by many.

Electrons repel all things.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

Originally Posted by William McCormick

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by redrighthand

hey,

first let me say my physics education consists of half-remembered year 12 curriculum, and this page http://www.newscientist.com/article/...al-forces.html

i was just confused on how it explained (or didn't explain) why two charges/magnets/whatever would repel eachother.

all it really said on the matter was...

"Two protons repel each other as a virtual photon emitted from one is absorbed by the other."
and
“these photons have only brief existences as they flit in and out of an electrical charge. “

...I dont get it.

What causes these 'virtual' photons to jump out of the proton, if only to loop back around and head home?
And what causes them to change to kinetic energy if they are absorbed into a different proton?

can anyone explain this to me? or link me to a good site for it?

This theory just sounds too dodgy to me, and I was bored, so I made my own


I got a bit carried away thinking about this...read on at your own risk


because of the transfer of photons, and how those photons are distributed (density) through space (inversely exponential), I figure the two charges 'want' to strike an equilibrium, an equal exchange of photons.

for example if one charge was weak and one strong. the strong charge would transfer more photons to the weaker one, due to the afore mentioned 'density', until they had an equal charge. so it seems to me that if something is preventing this exchange from happening (or counter-acting the effects of it), it would force the two charges to repel each other to 'try' to find their equilibrium.

but if something was preventing it, it has to be a third party force, independent from the 2 protons. All i can think of is... antimatter (yeah i said it).

why antimatter you ask? because its mathematical play-doh. and also because it introduces the idea of antigravity.

so this is the part where i patch up my quickly disintegrating theory with antimatter.

For the sake of the theory, the mass of antimatter grows exponentially.

As the stronger charge gets weaker, it gains a large amount of antimatter and looses a small of mass, and as the weaker one gets stronger, it looses a small amount of antimatter, and gains a small amount of mass. so effectively, antigravity *cough* counterbalances the photon exchange quick enough to stop an equilibrium from occurring, hence allowing the repulsion to occur.

so if these two systems operate independently, it would work for equally charged protons too.

i call it, "Lysaught's bulletproof unification theory of everything" or "Lysaught's theory on why antimatter is such a cop-out"

thanks for your time :]

There are two ways of looking at the issue of the repulsive force between two positively charged particles such as protons.

Classically you simply have an electrostatic field that results from the positive charges. The force is a result of that field which drops off as the square of the distance from a charged particle. The principle involved is called Coulomb's Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb's_law

In the quantum theory of electromagnetid fields, the field is the result of an exchange of virtual photons, which are the carriers of the electromagnetic force. Nothing "causes" them to be emitted, and that is part of quantum theory. It deals with probabilities rather than with certainties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Despite William's vivid description this has absolutely nothing to do with slowed electrons. In the case of proton-proton repulsin it has nothing to do with electrons at all.

Virtual photons? Oh come on, that is just too unreal.


Take a look at this gif file. The torch on the right has a piece of copper wire in it. The copper wire is fastened on the other end in a vise, that is electrically connected to the aluminum table and then to the welding machine output terminal.

The welding machine is receiving from the work table and vice a charge the same in polarity as a standard 12 volt car battery terminal marked (+). The torch is supplying and is charged with a polarity the same as a standard car battery terminal marked (-).

Watch the GIF animation to see which way things fly, under a couple hundred amps and about 100 volts.

The abundance of electrons is coming from a modern battery, through the (-) marked terminal. As they are coming from the torch in that movie. You can see them repel everything.



It is really not a secret, it is just misunderstood by many.

Electrons repel all things.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

What ou are seeing is the effect of heat in a dielectric breakdown of air creating a plasma. Electrons exert a repulsive force on things with a negative charge. They exert an attractive force on things with a positive charge. You can see that effect, both way, with the static electricity that bullds up when you comb your hair on a cold dry day.

Sorry that you don't like or understand the notion of virtual photons. But you have shown that you don't like much physics and don't understand any of it anyway.

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by William McCormick

Originally Posted by DrRocket

Originally Posted by redrighthand

hey,

first let me say my physics education consists of half-remembered year 12 curriculum, and this page http://www.newscientist.com/article/...al-forces.html

i was just confused on how it explained (or didn't explain) why two charges/magnets/whatever would repel eachother.

all it really said on the matter was...

"Two protons repel each other as a virtual photon emitted from one is absorbed by the other."
and
“these photons have only brief existences as they flit in and out of an electrical charge. “

...I dont get it.

What causes these 'virtual' photons to jump out of the proton, if only to loop back around and head home?
And what causes them to change to kinetic energy if they are absorbed into a different proton?

can anyone explain this to me? or link me to a good site for it?

This theory just sounds too dodgy to me, and I was bored, so I made my own


I got a bit carried away thinking about this...read on at your own risk


because of the transfer of photons, and how those photons are distributed (density) through space (inversely exponential), I figure the two charges 'want' to strike an equilibrium, an equal exchange of photons.

for example if one charge was weak and one strong. the strong charge would transfer more photons to the weaker one, due to the afore mentioned 'density', until they had an equal charge. so it seems to me that if something is preventing this exchange from happening (or counter-acting the effects of it), it would force the two charges to repel each other to 'try' to find their equilibrium.

but if something was preventing it, it has to be a third party force, independent from the 2 protons. All i can think of is... antimatter (yeah i said it).

why antimatter you ask? because its mathematical play-doh. and also because it introduces the idea of antigravity.

so this is the part where i patch up my quickly disintegrating theory with antimatter.

For the sake of the theory, the mass of antimatter grows exponentially.

As the stronger charge gets weaker, it gains a large amount of antimatter and looses a small of mass, and as the weaker one gets stronger, it looses a small amount of antimatter, and gains a small amount of mass. so effectively, antigravity *cough* counterbalances the photon exchange quick enough to stop an equilibrium from occurring, hence allowing the repulsion to occur.

so if these two systems operate independently, it would work for equally charged protons too.

i call it, "Lysaught's bulletproof unification theory of everything" or "Lysaught's theory on why antimatter is such a cop-out"

thanks for your time :]

There are two ways of looking at the issue of the repulsive force between two positively charged particles such as protons.

Classically you simply have an electrostatic field that results from the positive charges. The force is a result of that field which drops off as the square of the distance from a charged particle. The principle involved is called Coulomb's Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coulomb's_law

In the quantum theory of electromagnetid fields, the field is the result of an exchange of virtual photons, which are the carriers of the electromagnetic force. Nothing "causes" them to be emitted, and that is part of quantum theory. It deals with probabilities rather than with certainties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_particle

Despite William's vivid description this has absolutely nothing to do with slowed electrons. In the case of proton-proton repulsin it has nothing to do with electrons at all.

Virtual photons? Oh come on, that is just too unreal.


Take a look at this gif file. The torch on the right has a piece of copper wire in it. The copper wire is fastened on the other end in a vise, that is electrically connected to the aluminum table and then to the welding machine output terminal.

The welding machine is receiving from the work table and vice a charge the same in polarity as a standard 12 volt car battery terminal marked (+). The torch is supplying and is charged with a polarity the same as a standard car battery terminal marked (-).

Watch the GIF animation to see which way things fly, under a couple hundred amps and about 100 volts.

The abundance of electrons is coming from a modern battery, through the (-) marked terminal. As they are coming from the torch in that movie. You can see them repel everything.



It is really not a secret, it is just misunderstood by many.

Electrons repel all things.


Sincerely,


William McCormick

What ou are seeing is the effect of heat in a dielectric breakdown of air creating a plasma. Electrons exert a repulsive force on things with a negative charge. They exert an attractive force on things with a positive charge. You can see that effect, both way, with the static electricity that bullds up when you comb your hair on a cold dry day.

Sorry that you don't like or understand the notion of virtual photons. But you have shown that you don't like much physics and don't understand any of it anyway.

That molten metal being blown away from the (-) charged terminal. Is similar to the surface of a mercury rectifier, it is abundant with electrons.

The reason why that situation, actually moves the molten metal, is because of the amperage I have going through that wire, about 400 amps. Try it at reduced amperage and you will see that the plasma flows back to the torch. The pressure is usually from the ARC ray. I over came the arc, with a volume of electrons.

Yes you can make it go either way. However only Benjamin Franklin had it right. And now I do too.

In that experiment you can see what electron pressure backed up with a lot of amps can do, to even a plasma or molten surface. That is not what you normally see during disintegration or ARC (Anode, Rectified, Cathode) welding. Normally you see the plasma overcoming the input power. And flowing towards the (-) terminal. Because of the ARC effect.

Here is a movie about three different flows of electricity through noble gas. One of the flows, the first is a rather silent flow of electricity, electrons. Just like a flame.
It creates a beam of electrons right from the torch to the work piece. The torch is charged like a standard car batteries (-) terminal. You can note that the electrons flow to the work piece and leave the tungsten like a needle.

Next I show what AC current does. It starts to ball up the tungsten as electrons flow in both directions. Rather expected.

And finally I show what reverse polarity or (+) charged tungsten as marked on a standard battery does to the tungsten. I have no doubts about which way electrons flow. However many individuals in places of responsibility do. You can hear the ARC in both the AC and the Reverse polarity.

But with straight polarity DC current, there is no ARC just a silent beam. Away from the tungsten.

http://www.Rockwelder.com/WMV/tigmmicrosoft.html



Sincerely,


William McCormick