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Thread: Fusion, a Question?

  1. #1 Fusion, a Question? 
    Forum Professor wallaby's Avatar
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    i know that in order for two Hydrogen nuclei to fuse the nuclei have to gain enough energy to overcome the electrostatic force, or is it the Columb barrier, that reppels the protons.
    i also know that the energy output of an event like this is significantly greater than that required to fuse them together.

    the question being where does this vast amount of energy that is released come from?


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    Forum Isotope (In)Sanity's Avatar
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    the question being where does this vast amount of energy that is released come from?
    The Big Bang, don't cha know :wink:

    I'm kidding, but good question. I'll keep an eye on this thread as I to would like to know.


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    hehe, this is where the hypocricy of 'you cant get more out than you put in' comes from, fusion pretty much proves that if you can tap that energy your going to get more energy out than is going in because of vacuum energy and its supply to the nuclei, Einstein said something like. "In one bag of sugar there is enough energy to run the worlds cities for 100 years"

    Its well known that our theories actually consider the observer to be in a flat space time.. which is crazy, because by the very nature of the earth.. we are in a curved space time!.. but for some reason we dont consider this in the calculation's. Different rules apply to curved space time, because it is energetic by its very nature.

    mass = curved spacetime = gravity (energy), this energy cant be naturally harnessed by us with modern technology, but as I understand it when you split the atom, or fuse anything, you create a highly non linear vacuum interaction which impress's upon vacuum state to balance itself out... the solution is rapid EM bleed off into 3 space which is our visible extra energy.

    Its proven Vacuum isnt Inert, infact classical theory still consider's it inert 160 years after its conception... which is quite obsurd as it was proven wrong in the 1930's I believe.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    the question being where does this vast amount of energy that is released come from?
    It comes from the explosion that happens when the accumulation of Hydrogen and Helium are at a critical mass. Helium gets stuck inbetween the Hydrogen atoms as they coalesce.
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  6. #5  
    Forum Professor wallaby's Avatar
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    i think i should post this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

    ok if you have answered my question i still don't understand.

    what does the vacuum and curved spacetime, which is very slight on the quantum scale at which i speak due to low mass, have do do with energy released via the fusing of two Hydrogen, or Duetrium-Tritium etc?

    Cosmic i'm afraid i don't understand your response either.
    my problem being that to my understanding when two nuclei fuse they must first have enough energy to overcome the electrostatic force that pushes the protons apart, however once in contact the strong nuclear force takes over and keeps them together, ofcourse depending on the fuel cycle you are using there will be different products, issotopes of hydrogen and spare neutrons.

    the thing i don't understand is where the energy at the end, approx 17MeV, comes from. it can't come from nowhere.
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    Im saying to really understand where all that energy is coming from you have to look at the source, which would be the matter interaction. In vacuum dynamics, stable non linear vacuum is a Mass, fusing them would disrupt that stability... creating an imbalance, the vacuum reorder's itself to compensate resulting in EM bleed off which is conversion of energy under stress from virtual vacuum state to real visible EM energy.

    That extra energy is coming from vacuum, or aether, whatever you want to call it. You cannot explain the excess energy amount emitted otherwise, the energy is literally coming from another dimension, but dont consider that a special case cenario... the whole of our reality seems to be 'powered' so to speak by this other dimensional energy.

    Its just all most all the time we cant recognise this because we ignore quantum vectors as being real energy, they are clearly needed to explain the occurances but are a meer mathematical convieniance to a modern physicist. Vectors are proven to have real quantifiable presence (Ahranov-Bohm effect) and are evidence that vacuum energy is sustaining the quantum realm, just in an inobservable virtual format, but it shows its presence by the very nature of what is taking place.
    "The present is theirs ; the future, for which I really work , is mine." Nikola Tesla
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    so if i understand you correctly:

    the energy doesn't come from the particles directly but from an inbalence in the vacuum state cased by there fusion.

    the vacuum then 'bleeds' off energy in the form of EM radiation to correct the inbalance

    unfortunately i don't even start high school Physics till next year so i don't know what a Quantum Vector is.
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    In all reality we don't have a bloody clue where the energy is coming from, it's all just theory. Just as we don't have a clue why we even exist. But people have a wonderful time with the theories.
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  10. #9  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    When hydrogen starts to bond together in the vacuum of space it draws more and more mass from the coalaceing atoms and when it finally reaches a point of so much mass,critical mass, it explodes into a sun sometimes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler
    When hydrogen starts to bond together in the vacuum of space it draws more and more mass from the coalaceing atoms and when it finally reaches a point of so much mass,critical mass, it explodes inro a sun sometimes.
    That sounds like something I want in my back yard, umm not
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  12. #11  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Your back yard is the universe and this fusion process has been going on for over 13 billion years now and sees no end.
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  13. #12  
    Forum Professor wallaby's Avatar
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    you do understand i'm only talking about 2 nuclei, 2 protons.
    you seem to be talking about a cloud of hydrogen gas.
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  14. #13  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Wallaby, my simplistic answer to your question is that the resultant nucleus (plus any ejected particles) has a lower rest mass than the rest mass of the components prior to fusion. Using our old friend E=mc2, it is the mass difference that provides the energy.
    Clarky is either indulging in well established considerations well beyond the level of school level physics, or is speculating on radical, poorly supported notions well beyond the level of physics you are currently at. Either way I think the simple version I've presented will meet your immediate needs.
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    Hi Wallaby,
    You've been fed a lot of misinformation in this thread. Treat everything skeptically - including this advice.

    There are four known forces (five if you like to treat electric and magnetic forces separately, fewer if you can combine some forces into more fundamental theories, or if you don't consider gravity to be a force):

    1 - The Electromagnetic force. This force repels the two protons, and thus absorbs energy (speaking loosely) as the protons come together.
    2 - Gravity. This force attracts the two protons, and thus releases energy as the protons come together.
    3 - The Weak nuclear force. This force repels the two protons, and thus absorbs energy as the protons come together.
    4 - The Strong nuclear force. This force attracts the two protons, and thus releases energy as the protons come together.

    So the net release or absorbtion of energy depends on how much energy is released and absorbed by each of these four forces.
    I have no idea how to crunch the numbers to get quantitative answers, but I'm led to believe that the real physics boffins have it all worked out, and that for two protons coming together the dominant force depends on how far apart they are.

    So, here's my fuzzy qualitative understanding of what happens as the two protons approach each other.
    When they're a fair bit apart, the electromagnetic force is dominant. As they get really close, the weak nuclear force dominates. As they get *really* *really* close, the strong nuclear force becomes dominant, and the two protons get slammed together, releasing lots of energy.
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  16. #15  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallaby
    you do understand i'm only talking about 2 nuclei, 2 protons.
    you seem to be talking about a cloud of hydrogen gas.

    A cloud of hydrogen gas is called a Nebula. You should read up on them, they are quite interesting and where all stars are norn. A famous Nebula is the Eagles Nest.

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  17. #16  
    Forum Professor wallaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete
    Hi Wallaby,
    You've been fed a lot of misinformation in this thread. Treat everything skeptically - including this advice.
    yeah i thought that when it didn't make any sense, so i do what i do in some of my boring classes and go with it.

    it makes a little sense now, thank you Ophiolite and Pete that does meet my current desire for knowlage, why must the simple answers come later.

    A cloud of hydrogen gas is called a Nebula. You should read up on them, they are quite interesting and where all stars are norn. A famous Nebula is the Eagles Nest.
    yes CT i know that.
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  18. #17 Re: Fusion, a Question? 
    Forum Radioactive Isotope mitchellmckain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallaby
    i know that in order for two Hydrogen nuclei to fuse the nuclei have to gain enough energy to overcome the electrostatic force, or is it the Columb barrier, that reppels the protons.
    i also know that the energy output of an event like this is significantly greater than that required to fuse them together.

    the question being where does this vast amount of energy that is released come from?
    The simplest answer is that it comes from the total mass. The mass of a free proton is 1.0073u and each free neutron is 1.0087u while Deuterium only has a mass of 2.0136u. It is not a big difference so if you want to talk about a large amount of energy you should be talking about the more familiar process that produces Helium which has a mass of 4.00151u which is .03u less than its constituent nucleons if they were free.

    Now for the long answer. Forces like the electrostatic force are conservative forces. This means that they store energy just like a spring. If you push a positive and negative charge towards each other that takes work and work is a transfer of energy from what you supply to the potential energy of this conservative force. If you suddenly release the charges that potential energy is converted to the energy of motion as they fly apart. Well like the other intellegent poster mentioned there is the strong nuclear force as well which is much more powerful but operates at a shorter distance. So when four protons are pushed close enough together a reaction becomes possible that converts two protons to two neutrons that will bind with the protons to make a Helium nucleus which releases potential energy stored in the nuclear forces when the nucleons are apart. This stored potential energy is measured as mass according to the famous equations E=mc^2.
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