Thread: Striking thoughts

Have you ever read a Zen proverb and found that you felt enlightend and by sharing this enlightenment with someone else, only to find the differences between your enlightenment which leads you to question your first discovery?

I have come to like the idea of understanding others enlightenment in order to further my own.

With this in mind, I would grately appreciate any feed back no matter how critical, of the question I am going to pose.

How do you become, consciously unaware of time?

(Or anything for that matter)

Originally Posted by 1C3

How do you become, consciously unaware of time?

get drunk, have fun, go to sleep, are three that work well for me.

If you regard thought and therefore consciousness as time, then it would be impossible.

If you put yourself in a room without any stimuli and only your mind as a reminder that you are still alive, then you could loose track of time. If you decided to count in your mind, then it would only be a matter of time before you started to make mistakes and became lost in time. Your conscious would still try to comprehend time, but would fail to do so.

consciously unaware

Isn't that an oxymoron?

Only if you take it as that alone, without the "of time"; or, if you consider what I said about thought being time.

The very act of conscious contradicts the notion of 'unaware' after all conscious means being aware

In fact the mind has a limited capacity for what it can actually be conscious of in any given moment, therefore we become unconscious all the time about things, such as time and even ourselves, and then this consciousness will pop back into our mind if we, for example, suddenly remember a meeting we need to attend and look at our watch i become conscious of time, or my belly starts to hurt, i become conscious of my body.

Hobbies and interests absorb us to the extent we will become so focused that everything else can disappear from consciousness (temporarily of course)

I think you need to look at the nature of consciousness. You'll be in for big surprises when you do and discover the strange ambiguous and illusory nature of consciousness

In a way consciousness reminds me of the quantum discovery of the nature of atoms and how they exist as all possibilities, ambiguous and undefined until observation, which then determines and 'materializes' them.

The same could be said for our minds. In any given moment we could be conscious of an infinite possibilities until we focus onto one particular thought or awareness.

Selene you have in some way on some level, without consciously thinking about it backed up the question.

Originally Posted by 1C3

Have you ever read a Zen proverb and found that you felt enlightend and by sharing this enlightenment with someone else, only to find the differences between your enlightenment which leads you to question your first discovery?

It is interesting, isn't it? Even when placed before the most mundane of things, the understanding is not intrinsic or universal.

The world does not convey meaning or reason. When we see a color, it doesn't say "I am green." Our experiences place a subjectivity on how we perceive the world. It's only through our experiences that we bring any meaning or reason to what we perceive.

At the same time, the proverb becomes a bit of a curiosity, because we apply our own subjectivity to it, but in turn are subjected by the experience of it.

So then the question becomes, which analysis is right? Well, if there's an author's intent or a background to the proverb, it's often clear. If not, then the possibilities can be endless. In the later case, what do we care?

Take the proverb "A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

To some, it's the act of putting one foot in front of another.
To others, it's the act of making that first travel arrangement.
To others still, it has nothing to do with an actual distance, but the idea that a big problem must be tackled in small pieces.

Which one's right? Which one's wrong? What is the disposition of the person who chooses one or the other?

Originally Posted by 1C3

I have come to like the idea of understanding others enlightenment in order to further my own.

It's always a good idea to observe others. Even people inclined to only follow their own way(s), seek to study others.

Originally Posted by 1C3

With this in mind, I would grately appreciate any feed back no matter how critical, of the question I am going to pose.

There are some who believe they are (somehow) born with not just a unique perspective (which I believe is incredibly common) but also the correct or superior perspective (which I believe is crap).

Given the combinations of a person's individual experiences, influences, locations, and peculiarities, it is highly probable that someone would have their own unique way of looking at the world (although we often find that those ways are often parallel, if not exact, to others).

What do I mean by all that text? Well, I try to view all situations from both perspectives, because I can't trust my own to be correct, and I also can't trust the other perspective to be correct either. When given the same subject, the interpretations of viewers is the most fascinating. I can't say I will agree with or understand every perspective I find, but I don't have any intentions of understanding the whole world either (nor do I think that's possible).

It's one thing to go through life aware of differing viewpoints and analyzing them to see what's going on and why as a way of experiencing. It's another thing to go through life with the presumption that you're some kind of authority, claiming superiority in one's own perspective without visiting others.

Originally Posted by 1C3

How do you become, consciously unaware of time?

(Or anything for that matter)

Move to the subconscious.

It's really gray area. What do you consider to be "consciously aware of time?" If someone knows what the time is because they see a clock or have some other means of measuring the passage of time, are they consciously aware? Or, can they be consciously aware of time simply by experiencing time (the changes)?

If the former, then you could probably say you are consciously unaware of time if you are conscious of the fact that time is passing but are unable to measure it. If the later, you could probably only be consciously unaware of time if you were unconscious.

It's almost like when someone says that a person is "consciously unaware" of what's going on around them. To the person, they believe one thing is happening (example: nothing) when in fact there is something going on (example: someone's about to mug them).

Originally Posted by 1C3

Selene you have in some way on some level, without consciously thinking about it backed up the question.

The question was difficult to read because it wasn't very well written.

But i will try again.

Originally Posted by 1C3

Have you ever read a Zen proverb and found that you felt enlightend

And what exactly do you mean by enlightened? This word like many others is ambiguous.

Ambiguous words are those which can have a multiple of meanings and interpretations depending on who is using it.

Enlightenment might mean having a religious context and 'seeing the light' of God. Or it could mean gaining new wisdom or understanding which 'sheds some light'.

Originally Posted by 1C3

and by sharing this enlightenment with someone else, only to find the differences between your enlightenment which leads you to question your first discovery?

So of course every persons experience of 'enlightenment' is different. Because of our individual interpretations and meaning we give to the term and idea of 'enlightenment'.

Each person has different experiences and knowledge to relate to the experience of 'enlightenment'.
I also think enlightenment depends on what has been illuminated before.

Just as a person can't grasp complex equations before they've learned basic maths, or write a book util they've learned their ABC.
So one person will grasp meaning and obtain 'enlightenment' from an experience, or a passage in a book, or a verse in a poem,
and for another it will mean nothing.

Enlightenment depends on consciousness.

And consciousness has a strange nature of it's own, which i talked about in my previous post.

Some people walk through life experiencing similar experiences and reading the same passages in books without achieving enlightenment or seeing any meaning or relevance.

So what makes you experience enlightenment and not them?

There could be many reasons.

One as i described above is due to the different experiences in life prior to the experience which might lead to enlightenment.

That very passage in the book or verse in the poem might be an essential piece of a jigsaw you need to understand and make sense of other pieces you've gathered from other sources beforehand, which will give you new insight to life.
So when the pieces fit together it is like a revelation.

Enlightenment could be likened then allegorically to completing a jigsaw where each piece reveals more and more of the picture, or it could be likened to a quest or journey where each new discovery on the path brings new insight and points you in a particular direction.

Enlightenment can also be likened to an orgasm. It can be ecstatic, like an "AHA!" moment, and "now i see!"

The difference between you and another that 'wont' see, is that you have certain pieces of the jigsaw they don't.

This is not necessarily because they are ignorant, but because they are more likely to have 'enlightenment' about other things you don't.

Some people are more open to others to 'enlightenment'.

If you are a seeker of knowledge and understanding then you are far more likely to have much more pieces of a the jigsaw and potential to be led to enlightenment than somebody who doesn't think about these things and happily leads a life short on knowledge or the urge to know.

This depends on our satisfaction with life. It's often the dissatisfied who seek and are hungry for 'enlightenment'.

A seeker therefore has the urge to know and understand and therefore is more likely to be squeezing as much understanding and knowledge out of everything they come across because they are always on the 'look out' for it.

Therefore it is good practice to talk to other 'seekers' and share knowledge. After all that's what enlightenment really is.

It could be termed as three words in one:

Insight, Understanding and Knowledge.

Originally Posted by 1C3

How do you become, consciously unaware of time?

My answer in the previous post, dealt with this question.

You are talking about a dichotomy here.

unaware also means unconscious.

So how can you be conscious and unconscious of something at the same time?

This is not an impossibility, but it would take many years of training.

One of the aims of yogi meditation Samadhi is to attain a super awareness and consciousness of everything in the nothing.

Which means 'To be aware of everything and nothing'

It is a being aware, but not. Which is difficult to explain as these types of experience usually are.

Which is of course Zen and in the nature of Tau, and that which cannot be spoken.

In normal every day reality, consciousness is a different matter. It is often uncontrolled and ambiguous.

Try to become a watcher and observe how your consciousness operates.

In the first instance it is like a butterfly flitting all over the place, difficult to pin down.
See where it flutters to and where it rests.
Keep a note of it's activities just for a day.
Watch and observe.

I guarantee you will be surprised and the nature of consciousness and it can also be alarming to observe how elusive, transient and chaotic it really is.

After all, you're whole experience of 'reality' depends on your perception of it through your conscious.

And when you experience the true nature of 'reality' through your chaotic and transient and elusive consciousness.

Hopefully it will lead you to ask what these two things, 'consciousness' and 'reality', ultimately are.

Which is the ongoing question asked from the beginning of mankind by all 'seekers' spiritual as well as scientific.

The answer to that will bring you real enlightenment.

For me, enlightenment is not thinking that things "falls into place", but rarther, "it feels like things fall into place". By this I mean it is at your core of understanding (perseption) that it makes sense, which in tern changes the way in which you view the world (your surroundings).

Everyone has their own philosiphies. What matters is sharing them collectivly so we can learn from each other and better humanity for the nexy generation.

Nexy?

Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition

Everyone has their own philosiphies. What matters is sharing them collectivly so we can learn from each other and better humanity for the nexy generation.

I agree absolutely Svwillmer

I think sharing is the key, unfortunately it isn't practiced in certain establishments or with people who are precious about what they've learned for fear of people 'stealing' that knowledge.

One of the great things about the internet is the sharing of this knowledge, even that which has been 'stolen'.

The best knowledge you can have about anything though is sitting there right with you, not outside yourself.

With that knowledge i think everything else falls into place.

I agree with you too Ic3 It is a feeling, like i said it can feel similar to an orgasm. Religion have always known that about about spiritual knowledge and always talk of ecstasy in revelations.

I think that's because real knowledge touches your core and can be life changing.
The whole way we perceive the world based on the knowledge and understanding we've received which gives us more of a frame of reference and makes our 'world space' much bigger, infinitely even.

I would rather feel like i belong to the universe than just my back yard or my neighborhood. That's what 'small minded is'

When i gain knowledge from the other side of the world or about the universe it doesn't feel so distant or alienating when i think like this

I think it's what we 'choose' to perceive and how we interpret it.

Originally Posted by 1C3

For me, enlightenment is not thinking that things "falls into place", but rarther, "it feels like things fall into place". By this I mean it is at your core of understanding (perseption) that it makes sense, which in tern changes the way in which you view the world (your surroundings).

If I lie on my back and watch snow fall, after a while.

It's of giving up. Letting go. Mental exhaustion does it.

Life doesn't really demand much effort. We're so hulking most times, it's funny.

Originally Posted by Cold Fusion

Nexy?

Im sorry if I sound like I'm being dense, but I don't know what you mean. Could you elaborate please.

He is just taking the piss out of 425 Chaotic Requisition

He spelled the word next wrong into 'nexy'

(Sigh)

He's just being a pedantic little fart

(Sigh) Do i look bored? I don't mean to........zzz

Originally Posted by Selene

I think it's what we 'choose' to perceive and how we interpret it.

I agree with you, I really do believe this coupled with personal experiance is the distinguishing factor between one persons enlightenment and anothers. My truth isn't your truth!

If we consider that enlightenment is a journey, then what do you believe the end result or aim of the journey is?
Is it to keep obtainig, or is it to become content, or possibly both?

Is there an end?

1C3, you began the thread with zen enlightenment. No-mind, void, ya know - the graceful nothing. Right? So why now say keep obtaining? We seem to be grasping things.

There is no end to what we can learn. The quest is never over and knowledge will grow and grow. But that has its problems.

For instance I played eye spy recently with my sister and brother. Because I knew more I was looking EVERYWHERE for the letter that was meant to be looked for. Needless to say I failed everytime, whereas a child I excelled. Being of greater mind can limit us, so that has a lesson, the lesson being that we need to balance intelligence with non-intelligence, if that is possible which I'm sure it is. How do we do that?

Maybe by looking through the eyes of a child in what they see, can I win at eye spy again. But winning also has to be balanced with losing.

Originally Posted by 425 Chaotic Requisition

balance intelligence with non-intelligence, if that is possible which I'm sure it is. How do we do that?

Learn the different kinds of focus. Riffle Buddhism, especially Zen Buddhism, you'll find just what you're looking for, in "how-to" format.