Notices
Results 1 to 31 of 31

Thread: When will human be obsolete

  1. #1 When will human be obsolete 
    New Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1
    Since the beginning of our human history we, humans, have delegated more and more of our funtions / tasks. Where our hand wasn't strong enough we used a hammer, where it wasn't fine enough we used a needle. Farming started out as e purely manual activity which was eased by animal aid and later on even more with machines. Almost all of our havy labour is currently been done by machines. These machines are also taking over more and more of the light but repetetive jobs we want to have done. Computers are now taking over our information processing functions. So the question remains: when will all of our capabilities be replacable by machines, computers, etc.

    In this we must remind that development follows an experimental curve, meaning that developments follow each other faster and faster. It took millions of years to develop language, tens of thousands of years to develop writing, thousands of years to discover printing, hundreds of years to develop computer technology, ...

    I might seem beyond reach that artficial intelligence should do something like creating a game, a movy or a roman. But keeping the previous paragraphe in mind, when will it be acheaved. When will one of the last human priviged things, creativity, be replacable as well?

    And when will we be obsolete at all.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Key West, Florida, Earth
    Posts
    4,788
    And when will we be obsolete at all.

    When we become old and can't work at anything any longer, become ill, or when we die.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    Forum Isotope (In)Sanity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Mesa AZ
    Posts
    2,699
    The day artificial intelligence exceeds our own.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Key West, Florida, Earth
    Posts
    4,788
    That won't happen for the machines need someone to work for or else they won't have anything to do for they lack imagination.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    651
    I don't think that humans will ever become obsolete. However, like all species, we will eventually evolve past our usefulness and die out. Before that time, We will evolve into a different species with greater capability of intelligence.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6 Re: When will human be obsolete 
    Him
    Him is offline
    Forum Sophomore Him's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    181
    Quote Originally Posted by DeJean
    And when will we be obsolete at all.
    I must agree, theoretically artificial intelligence must be able to achieve the same capacities as us and taken their enormous calculating capacities into calculation :wink: they might make us obsolete.
    Because we may not forget one of the main biological laws “the struggle of the fittest” … So, when will we loose from our own creatures…?

    We need to program a computer to do a certain tasks,
    Humans need to be taught how to solve an algebra equation…
    so what’s the difference…

    Questions is, is the biological blueprint of live capable of (to remain in the Darwin terminology) a higher fitness compared to the electronic blueprint of programmed ‘live’ (in the near future).

    Will calculation and statistics beat feelings and guts.

    I am always in for the optimistic point of view, so my opinion must be no (they won’t beat us)! Although I can’t grasp the ‘superior’ part of the biological blueprint. Some people would recall on a believe in a religious way. But let us keep the discussion simple and keep god out of it.

    I think guts is our point were we will beat the superior capacities of artificial intel. being our unpredictable self’s will safe us.
    The most successful persons do not follow the law of statistics and calculation (being the superior side of artificial intelifence).

    So people have some courage it is our only path...
    he who forgets...will be destined to remember (Nothing Man - Pearl Jam)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7 interesting point 
    New Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1
    hi,


    I think you brought up a very intersting point here. i think the question here is :
    "can an intelligent mind create a mind that exceeds its cerator in creativity and intelligence?"

    if we, manking, would be abled to achieve this task, then we could definitely call us "crown of creation" because we would have surpassed creation by surpassing ourselves (products of what i call here "ceration" to make it simple). it would be a totaly new step in evolution, because all the evolutin before happened randomly through the process of darwinism the "survive of the fittest".

    now, will those principles still work with the created, the artificial creation ? is there a darwinism for creations. in this cenario it would end like in movies like terminator or the matrix where the (austrian accent speaking) machines fight the humans, the representatives of the old the random creation.

    well, i don't think this is going to happen. however, i believe that we, the humans can create a mind, that can surpass our own, but it will work in symiosis, rather than battle. i feel, this kind of symbiosis has already started with the most primitive machines. together with a human this human + machine was simply "better" than the original natural born human. (human with sword kills human without sword. usa "beats the crap" our of iraq). this process has been going on ever since, with exponential acceleration. i think it is qust a question of time, until the silicon based "minds" will surpass the carbon hydrogen based ones. moores law is still working and it's working good.

    it seems to be the human destiny to pursuit a better life, more power etc.

    i think nietzsche was absolutely right when he said "if there is a god, how can i bear to be no god" ,well this part is correct, i don't know about the second one, but we can't bear to be no god. we aspire to perfection. nietzches "will to power" is omnipresent and will be the motor for our creation that will replace random creation, humans and maybe god.

    thats my oppinion, tell me what you think. also the tech/boilogy freaks. how many transistors do modern supercomputers, the crowns of human creation, have? how many transistors represents a human brain cell ? when will there be computers, as complex as a human brain?

    johannes
    cogito ergo sum, cogito
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Professor wallaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    1,521
    we could intergrate ourselves into machines, upload our brains into computers or biologicaly augment our bodies.

    be creative.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Maastricht, Netherlands
    Posts
    861
    The definition of obsolete would mean we have some purpose now. I don't believe we will ever become obsolete, because we are obsolete now. We are not needed for the existence of the earth.

    The creation of an AI will not alter that. Perhaps we will in fact loose part of our obsolete-ness, as we gain responsibility for a new existence (AI).

    mr U
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Him
    Him is offline
    Forum Sophomore Him's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    181
    Quote Originally Posted by HomoUniversalis
    The definition of obsolete would mean we have some purpose now. I don't believe we will ever become obsolete, because we are obsolete now. We are not needed for the existence of the earth.

    mr U
    Indeed humans are obsolete for the existence of live on our planet, actually at the moment we are rather a disturbing factor.

    But I believe you're missing the point of the author (maybe intentional, I don't mind)
    the point being: when will humans become obsolete to keep our man created society turning. When will we become obsolete for the developing new electronic, new scientific breakthrough, new artworks , ... because we can no longer compete with AI.
    he who forgets...will be destined to remember (Nothing Man - Pearl Jam)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    I am with HU on this one. 'Obsolete' comes not just with baggage, but a whole shipment of implications, subtle relationships, assumed meanings, enforced semantics, etc. At the root of it all is the implication that humans have a purpose. They may do so, but it is hardly the purpose of simply being efficiently self sustaining. That is not a purpose - it is a characteristic, and one that is common to all (successful) life.
    We can become extinct, but that is a different matter. Obsolete just feels ot of place in this context.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Him
    Him is offline
    Forum Sophomore Him's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    181
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    I am with HU on this one. 'Obsolete' comes not just with baggage, but a whole shipment of implications, subtle relationships, assumed meanings, enforced semantics, etc. At the root of it all is the implication that humans have a purpose.
    My native languish is not English so I’m not going to debate if the worth ‘obsolete’ is used correct according to the linguistic standards (although I think personal correlation with word is in order here).
    Maybe the Author can correct me if he still visits the site but I still think he did not intended to bring up the discussion of the obsoleteness of humans. But he used it (maybe incorrectly) to address the exponential growth of AI and questioned were it will leave us. By using the word obsolete he made topic more attracting.
    But okay, thanks for the lesson in English grammar.
    and to argument; mankind may be obsolete but as a person you definitely are not obsolete.
    he who forgets...will be destined to remember (Nothing Man - Pearl Jam)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    I think it can sometimes be an advantage to come to a loosely written piece of writing (such as the opening post) with less than total fluency in the language. It allows you to focus on the 'top level' of meaning and avoid all the nuances and subtleties. (I once had a lenghty conversaiton with a Pole in french, because it was the only language we had in common. I am fairly certain no frenchman would have understood us we were so corrupting the language, but we got on perfectly well.)
    That's a roundabout way of saying that I think your interpretation of what DeJean meant is correct. It is a pity he seems to have disappeared.
    I think it is entirely possible, indeed almost inevitable, that we will create AIs that are more intelligent than us. Here I mean intelligence as a measure of problem solving abilities. What is not so clear is whether the resultant AI would in any sense be conscious. Consciousness is a one of the remaining great mysteries.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Sophomore wretched's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    BakomGaller
    Posts
    108
    Obsolete...

    the day we stopped thinking about our origins, about our inner feelings....our capacity to change and improve things, the day everything is only an ilusion, women of plastic, men made of anabolics.... massive channels of information sending the same empty message, telling us how we should feel, look and buy... that day.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Him
    Him is offline
    Forum Sophomore Him's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    181
    Quote Originally Posted by wretched
    Obsolete...

    the day we stopped thinking about our origins, about our inner feelings....our capacity to change and improve things, the day everything is only an ilusion, women of plastic, men made of anabolics.... massive channels of information sending the same empty message, telling us how we should feel, look and buy... that day.
    Although I like the avatar, I fear some silicone in her lips making your excellent point a little less convincing. But still, nice move.
    he who forgets...will be destined to remember (Nothing Man - Pearl Jam)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Sophomore wretched's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    BakomGaller
    Posts
    108
    Quote Originally Posted by Him
    Although I like the avatar, I fear some silicone in her lips making your excellent point a little less convincing. But still, nice move.
    Contradiction of values? 8)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Him
    Him is offline
    Forum Sophomore Him's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    181
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Consciousness is a one of the remaining great mysteries.
    I heard agreement kills the conservation, but you did grasp the worth I was searching for… (easy agrument I admit, but wait... )

    still anyone who disagrees consciousness is not achievable for IA; why not?
    Nice....
    he who forgets...will be destined to remember (Nothing Man - Pearl Jam)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Him
    Him is offline
    Forum Sophomore Him's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    181
    Quote Originally Posted by wretched

    Contradiction of values? 8)
    indeed
    but your heading for that that big big road, you'll find it; if you keep looking.
    he who forgets...will be destined to remember (Nothing Man - Pearl Jam)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    I am reviving this thread as another aspect of the discussion occured to me.
    For an organism or species or entity to be obsolete it must no longer be able to achieve its pupose as efficiently or effectively as some other organims or species or entity.
    Hence, purpose is implicit in the use of the term obsolete.
    If you subscribe to a naturalistic school of thinking the only purpose any life form has is to survive, and frankly I think that is rather stretching the meaning of purpose. On that basis, from the naturalistic point of view, no species can become obsolete. It can become extinct, but that is another matter.
    If you subscribe to a religious point of view, then your purpose will be defined by your religion. It requires you to do certain things. Since these things pertain to you, must be done by you, you and by extension humanity, cannot become obsolete.
    In either case we see that the original question is flawed, in that not only are we not obsolete, we cannot, logically, become obsolete.
    A third possibility is raised by our intelligence: we can define our own purpose. We can choose our function. Would we then, one muses, ever choose to make ourselves obsolete?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Posts
    5
    Definition
    obsolete
    adjective
    not in use any more, having been replaced by something newer and better or more fashionable

    I don't think humans will ever be obsolete for the reason that even if as you say animals, computers or tools replace us in certain domains, humans will always be responsible for the output of those functions. If you use an ox to plow a field, you will still have to command that ox so that its function is carried out properly. As for computers and AI I was given an article about it when I was doing my law admissions test the other day and I found it quite interesting. Can't remember whom but someone had made a parallel with computers by something he called "the chinese room", I don't remember the whole thing but basically what it wanted to conclude was that humans are responsible for the input in computers that later process that to give the output. For example in order for a computer to carry out a function, there has to be written a specific coding for he computer that tells the computer how to do what is being requested. This coding is done by a programmer and it's human input. The day we no longer "control" computers or machines is the day they start to think for themselves; which I guess will never happen.

    In a nutshell what I'm saying is that humans will always have to survey the things that replace us. Thus still giving us a function.

    Sorry if this is not very well written in a philosphical manner. I have never been taught philosophy and I'm only in my last year of highschool (college if you're from the UK :P). It is also why I like to read the discussions going on here, as I find them stimulating and they provoke thoughts.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Futuria
    Posts
    57
    Ehh we are still in process of Evolution. Look around it is not a damn way near end. So its really no need to get upset over thing like "Obsolete .. oh no.. almost here !" for a while.
    Want to have unlimited power? Dont stop learning and u'll have it.

    http://science.mojforum.si
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    20
    Naturally humans will become obsolete when machines can do anything better than humans without human intervention (including reproduction), i hope that we never allow this to take place, and that some form of interventon is required.

    I agree with the idea that humans will enhance themselves though rather than just let ai take total control, chips that mimic certain brain fuctions (in animals) are being developed, i don`t doubt its not very long before brains implants that mimic human brain functions will be available. So perhaps people will never become obsolete, we`ll just just change and enhance ourselves so much that we cease to become human any more.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    716
    Question showed one of the possible outcome: men being enhanced beyond present form and capability. Two other outcome are: 1 Man-made technology destroy them by mistakes (e.g. accidental black hole), or by intent (e.g. galactic war) or by ignorance (e.g. ozone layer depletion); 2 AI mutiny.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    309
    Quote Originally Posted by (In)Sanity
    The day artificial intelligence exceeds our own.
    it would seem to me that artificial inteligence cannot exceed our own because we program them, so only our intelligence is in them.
    I don't suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it

    the road to succes is never paved or clearly marked
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Belo Hozironte
    Posts
    8
    when that time comes, perhaps we shall be so indiferent that we shall understand nether what's more obsolete and what's less.
    thanks for everything!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Forum Senior
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    309
    well, maybe we will program current knowledge, but then we will become lazy and forget, so in a sense our old versions of ourselves will overcome us.
    I don't suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it

    the road to succes is never paved or clearly marked
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Forum Freshman weirdesky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    27
    I don't think that humans will ever become obsolete because we can't program ingenuity into machines, so we will still be able to solve more complex problems. An example would be this problem: You have a sextant and you know your distance from the building. A computer would solve it by using trigonometry. A human could solve it that was, or go to the owner of the building and offer them a nice sextant if they can tell you how tall their building is. YOu could go to the top of the building and drop it and time it and use an equation to find the height out that way.
    It's hard to soar like an eagle when your flying with turkeys
    It's hard to be humble when your as great as I am.
    The world changes so fast, you couldn't be wrong all the time even if you tried
    Judging by the way some church members live, they need fire insurance
    The only thing in life acheived without effort is failure
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    How many sextants, stacked on top of each other, reach to the top of the Empire State Building? :wink:
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Forum Freshman weirdesky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    27
    I don't think you got my point, and I don't know.
    It's hard to soar like an eagle when your flying with turkeys
    It's hard to be humble when your as great as I am.
    The world changes so fast, you couldn't be wrong all the time even if you tried
    Judging by the way some church members live, they need fire insurance
    The only thing in life acheived without effort is failure
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    11
    I don't think humans will go obsolete to an AI mutiny. It's not because I think we can't make a superhuman intelligence or that such a superhuman intelligence would have the ability to make humans obsolete. Rather, it is because humans will have no desire to make strong AI become a reality.

    Instead, I believe that humans will divert all of their attention towards another persuit: obtaining pleasure through means of computer games more entertaining than reality. Most of you probably know how addicting a simple game like pong can be, and we can only drool with anticipation at how wonderful computer games will be in the future. It's my belief that humans will create a computer so fun that everyone who tries it just once will be hooked on it like a potent drug. We will become slaves to it, and dedicate our entire existence to playing it. Becuase I believe creating such a game would not require as high a level of technology as creating strong AI, the game should be created before the AI. And once the game is here, nobody is going to care about the AI.

    Another possibility is that we will begin artificialy stimulating certain brain regions (such as the nucleus accumbens), which will create an immense euphoria of pleasure unparalled to anything ever expierenced by humans. A simmilar thing has been done to lab rodents. The rodents could press a lever or something and get this part of their brain stimulated, and did this in preference to eating food. Thus, they starved themselves to death. Anything that feels so good that it makes you starve yourself to death HAS GOT TO BE COMPLETELY AWESOME! If the same applies to humans...

    Both of these methods, if achieved, would render any search for AI obsolete. At least that's what I think. There could still be some reason for them, but I don't know. Also, if any of these things come to pass the goal of our feeble existance will set only on finding pleasure in these things. Some might argue that this would be a pathetic existance, and that humans would be obsolete if such a thing were to happen.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Forum Freshman weirdesky's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Posts
    27
    Yet the second one would destroy humanity.
    It's hard to soar like an eagle when your flying with turkeys
    It's hard to be humble when your as great as I am.
    The world changes so fast, you couldn't be wrong all the time even if you tried
    Judging by the way some church members live, they need fire insurance
    The only thing in life acheived without effort is failure
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •