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Thread: Free will?

  1. #501  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Yes, you should.
    I am so sorry for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    That I posted where you replied to Strange is irrelevant. Post 492 shows you direct- at me- claims of arguments that I am not making.
    So it is irrelevant that I have to re-explain the explanation I gave to *you*.
    You are right, you stating that "I did not answer the question" was a good joke. Quite relevant for a clown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    You are using Red Herrings to try to refute it, you are creating circular arguments and frankly, it is pointless. You seem to just want to argue.
    Do you realize why you see Red Herrings everywhere ?
    Should I apologies also for your lack of logical ability ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000 View Post
    Because I predict you are going to play the outrage whining again.
    Nonsense. It is not "outraged whining" when someone points out that you are in error.
    Too late see your first line ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    You are in error and you need to just get over it instead of always trying to weasel out of your own words.
    That I may be. But you are not the one that is going to point them to me apparently.
    Nice weaseling out BTW

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000 View Post
    I refute silly pointless quoting *you* made.
    Part of the reason many of your posts are so difficult to understand is because you live in dream-land and see the only 'reality' you wish to see (or create to suit yourself).
    All the reason my post a difficult to understand for you, is that you don't agree. And in your universe, only your point of view is understandable, especially because you are right, right ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    I'm sorry...
    I did not require any apology, I demand you withdrew it immediately !

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Is that a silly, pointless quote? Feel free to refute it. I could use yet another laugh.
    Done, I am still rolling on the floor...

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000 View Post
    *I* did that ?
    Yes. You also just quoted my direct questions to you without answering them.
    My, but you should stop using weasels but mouses instead, especially those equipped with wheels, you would be able to scroll down until my first response to your only question at post #484

    Since then, you universe seems to be dead locked. I strongly advise a reboot, or a "free will" seminar.
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  2. #502  
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    A lot of spewing with no real content...

    Back on topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000 View Post
    Mine, that of Sealeaf, Raj. Not only assertions, but backed up by logic and complete sentences.
    Oh, wrong again.
    Too much logic and words into that sentence, I am overwhelmed by your wisdom.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Contrary to you quacking boring void and superbly poetic assertions.
    You cannot recognize evidence, so stop pretend to know what that means. Ho, I forgot, you have not that will even if it is gratis.
    I see, a resort to ad homs rather than actually address my posts.
    Address what ? again ? You think you are posting ? Ad homs who ?
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    I heard an other edition goes like this:whatever you do ,whatever your decision and how do you think about decision,incuding your thinking on this --free mind .All,even you know this and just choose the opposite thing,all, have being decided at the "Big Bang".Genes comes from the combination in accident.
    Is the history programmed?
    Every choice you make,lead the histroy moving,then some one said:"Oh,it is already been set",you live ,"he is supposed to live";someone is gone,"he is doomed."(You may think as same as this ,too),but it is different.
    "Right now ,a guy named 'L.spark' is thinking about this,all decided." "Free", the word, It is just the cage in heart,leave it.
    Are you programmed?One can say,"yes",or "no".
    How do you know these when you leave the world?Right now,living,that is all that matters.Get busy living,that's it.
    ----personal opinion just
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.spark View Post
    ----personal opinion just
    Of course, but a clear and logical one.
    Except that, apparently (because other species may have much better theories right now (<-- yet another theory)), the very substance of our universe is embedded into non-linearity (unpredictability). You cannot even predict the position of planets accurately.
    If the BB is for real, the only thing that seems to have been "decided" (strange term) there, is the entropy will increase.
    So we may not be free of the force of nature, but even them seems to guarantee impredictability(not randomness, but mathematical chaos)
    Last edited by Boing3000; March 29th, 2013 at 04:18 PM.
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  6. #506  
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    Quote Originally Posted by L.spark View Post
    I heard an other edition goes like this:whatever you do ,whatever your decision and how do you think about decision,incuding your thinking on this --free mind .All,even you know this and just choose the opposite thing,all, have being decided at the "Big Bang".Genes comes from the combination in accident.
    Is the history programmed?
    No! If it were, then all questions should be settled,
    but here are two unsettled questions in our history:
    First Question: What is the answer to the next question?
    Next Question: What is not the answer to the first question?
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  7. #507  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    No! If it were, then all questions should be settled

    What makes you think that?
    but here are two unsettled questions in our history:
    First Question: What is the answer to the next question?
    Next Question: What is not the answer to the first question?
    Already answered.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  8. #508  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    No! If it were, then all questions should be settled
    What makes you think that?
    Dont you see why?
    Because the world is supposed to be a finished thing,
    and that means all questions about it have an answer.
    All answers together constitutes a complete description of the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    but here are two unsettled questions in our history:
    First Question: What is the answer to the next question?
    Next Question: What is not the answer to the first question?
    Already answered.
    Is there a correct answer?
    To both questions?
    Then why didnt you give it?
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  9. #509  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Dont you see why?
    Nope.

    Because
    the world is supposed to be a finished thing,
    Huh?
    What do you mean by "finished"?
    Why is it "supposed to be"?

    and that means all questions about it have an answer.
    All answers together constitutes a complete description of the world.
    IF history were "programmed" it could be part of the "programme" that we don't have access to all the answers.
    IF history were "programmed" it could be part of the "programme" that we only get the answers gradually.

    Is there a correct answer?
    To both questions?
    Then why didnt you give it?
    I did, although you've rephrased the question, so I'll rephrase the answer:
    "Any other answer".
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  10. #510  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Dont you see why?
    Nope.

    Because
    the world is supposed to be a finished thing,
    Huh?
    What do you mean by "finished"?
    Why is it "supposed to be"?
    Because thats how I interprete the phrase "History is programmed".
    If you interprete it otherwise then my argument is not related to your interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    and that means all questions about it have an answer.
    All answers together constitutes a complete description of the world.
    IF history were "programmed" it could be part of the "programme" that we don't have access to all the answers.
    IF history were "programmed" it could be part of the "programme" that we only get the answers gradually.
    And what use do you have for such "Programmed Histories"?
    What can they prove? They are useless if free will is discussed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post

    Is there a correct answer?
    To both questions?
    Then why didnt you give it?
    I did, although you've rephrased the question, so I'll rephrase the answer:
    "Any other answer".
    You noticed? Im flattered
    Lets try out your answer then:
    First Q: What is the answer to next question? ...Answer: Any other answer.
    Next Q: What is not the answer to first question? ...Answer: Any other answer

    According to the first Q the answers to the questions MUST be the same... and they are!
    According to the next Q the answers to the questions MUST NOT be the same... but they are!
    So the answer does NOT fit the second question... but honestly: A Very Good Try!

    PS:
    You are the best sophist Ive met in here. When will you grow up?
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  11. #511  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Because thats how I interprete the phrase "History is programmed".
    Huh?
    Elucidate please.

    And what use do you have for such "Programmed Histories"?
    What?

    What can they prove? They are useless if free will is discussed.
    Hardly.

    Lets try out your answer then:
    First Q: What is the answer to next question? ...Answer: Any other answer.
    Next Q: What is not the answer to first question? ...Answer: Any other answer

    According to the first Q the answers to the questions MUST be the same... and they are!
    According to the next Q the answers to the questions MUST NOT be the same... but they are!
    So the answer does NOT fit the second question... but honestly: A Very Good Try!
    Um, keep trying.
    The first is a metastatement - telling you what the answer "will be".
    The second is a statement.
    In point of fact the answer to the second question "What is not the answer to first question?" need NOT be different from the first - all it needs to be is a description/ statement of what "the answer to question one is not".

    PS:
    You are the best sophist Ive met in here. When will you grow up?
    Why would I need to grow up?
    PS: could you explain what relevance (if any) those questions have with regard to the topic?
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; March 29th, 2013 at 10:36 PM.
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  12. #512  
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    Hey everyone. Interesting discussion!
    Whats free will?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulle View Post
    Hey everyone. Interesting discussion!
    Whats free will?
    -A misquoted movie title.
    -A communist round thing
    -A violation of the first law of term O dine a micro. It allows endless re-hashment (no to be confound with refreshment, it is the opposite), off nonsensical argh human in late nigh philosophical parties
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulle View Post
    Hey everyone. Interesting discussion!
    Whats free will?
    We are! But we suspect we are forced on us...
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    [QUOTE=Dywyddyr;407506PS: could you explain what relevance (if any) those questions have with regard to the topic?[/QUOTE]

    Ill consider it... Meanwhile it will save us time if you explain the topic you are referring to.
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  16. #516  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr
    could you explain what relevance (if any) those questions have with regard to the topic?
    Ill consider it... Meanwhile it will save us time if you explain the topic you are referring to.
    Well, it's difficult, but do you think I could possibly be referring to the topic of the thread?
    The one hinted at in the title of the thread?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  17. #517  
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    after 516 posts the "topic" remains unexplained

    how many logicians does it take to "screw in a lightbulb"?
    or, in the case in question, to "screw up a topic"?
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  18. #518  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    how many logicians does it take to "screw in a lightbulb"?
    or, in the case in question, to "screw up a topic"?
    Apparently, only one if his name is Sigurd.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    free will means we can use the right part of our brain which is related to creativity,intution etc.
    the left part of our brain will always take analytical decisions after calculating so it is under control of pure logical arguments and brain fluids.
    that is how it works
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr
    could you explain what relevance (if any) those questions have with regard to the topic?
    Ill consider it... Meanwhile it will save us time if you explain the topic you are referring to.
    Well, it's difficult, but do you think I could possibly be referring to the topic of the thread?
    The one hinted at in the title of the thread?
    I kinda forgot the fascinating discussion within this thread ...sorry!
    Well then: Where IS your explanation of the topic?
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    @Sigurdv
    What do you want to prove?
    Free will
    then you have to give proof of GOD
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    @Sigurdv
    What do you want to prove?
    Free will
    then you have to give proof of GOD
    Totally false.
    If god exists, whether "proven" or not, there can be no free will.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    I know well even God exists, that would not make will "free"
    I just commented in such a way because debate went to long
    Simply proving free will is as difficult as proving GOD
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  24. #524  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    I know well even God exists, that would not make will "free"
    What?
    If god exists, that PRECLUDES the existence of free will.

    I just commented in such a way because debate went to long
    You got bored and decided to troll rather than contribute or stay out?
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    "Free will " is only possible if will does not exist

    Every thing that exists has enough reasons to not free
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    "Free will " is only possible if will does not exist
    You're going to have to explain that.
    It appears to be the equivalent of "tasty chickens are only possible if chickens don't exist".

    Every thing that exists has enough reasons to not free
    I don't think anyone has proposed that "free will" is intended to mean "entirely unbounded".
    At the very least "free will" means "being able to decide between two different, equally desirable, options without significant noticeable coercion/ constraint".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    I know well even God exists, that would not make will "free"
    What?
    If god exists, that PRECLUDES the existence of free will.
    What ? From what religious belief did you pull that out off ?

    Care to contribute instead of trolling ? (We know your religious belief preclude you to stay out, or to admit your errors)
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  28. #528  
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    [QUOTE=Dywyddyr;416574]
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    "Free will " is only possible if will does not exist
    You're going to have to explain that.
    It appears to be the equivalent of "tasty chickens are only possible if chickens don't exist".

    [quote] I said tasty chickens are not possible in that case
    In same sense "free will " is not possible
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  29. #529  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    I said tasty chickens are not possible in that case
    You're making no sense whatsoever.
    You had a clause - if will does not exist.
    If will does not exist then neither does free will.

    In same sense "free will " is not possible
    And you can show this...?
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  30. #530  
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    "Free will " does not exist
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  31. #531  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    "Free will " does not exist
    Repeated assertions are not evidence.
    And you still haven't explained your previous comment.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    "Free will " does not exist
    You are wrong.

    There is a genius duck that knows that it exist. He have seen it, taste it. Even if it is contradiction with every known scientific theories, being "creating something form nothing" or "having free lunch" or being able to will himself into the master of the forum, he knows that it exist.

    Do you think he is free to admit his shortcomings ? Yes of course. He is free, you known.
    He is even free of making any rational argumentation, that is why he does not do any.
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    hi, the...confusion...is...only
    ...there...when...we...only...
    consider...free...will...with...
    no...will...with...out...noticing
    ...devine...will!

    peace&love...vern

    p.s...marvelousness...is...indeed...a...foot!
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  34. #534  
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    Unadulterated crap.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Unadulterated...maybe
    ...crap...never!

    peace&love...vern

    p.s...left...or...right...the...choice
    ...really...is...yours!
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  36. #536  
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernpeace View Post
    Unadulterated...maybe
    ...crap...never!

    peace&love...vern

    p.s...left...or...right...the...choice
    ...really...is...yours!
    Wrong again.
    You can't spell, you refuse to punctuate, you persist in using the aforementioned oxymoron and you make ridiculous insupportable assumptions.
    Crap I said and crap it is.
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  37. #537  
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    I'm a little late to the party but I heard something about free will over here. Which would be awesome because as it is, I've always had to pay a monthy subscription. So is this some sneaky shady underhanded deal you guys got by bribing the will installation guy or is there some new company debuting to shake things up in the will provider market?
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  38. #538  
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    ever hear/read the phrase:
    "Every thing that you own, owns you."

    Ever play the game wherein colors are printed in a different color
    eg:RED
    and, you are supposed to note the actual color shown and not the color indicated by the word? Most people almost constantly go with the word and not the actual color.

    Oft times, our language and inculturation preclude freedom of thought and epression favoring patterned response.
    And then there is the studied(designed?) bias of the media:

    anecdote:
    When I got out of the army, I visited with my aunt and uncle who lived in Chicago. The "news media" had pretty much convinced white chicago, that the "crazy niggers" on the south side would attack any whites they found on their turf.
    So, of course(survivors guilt? or just refusal to be brainwashed?) I pulled on my old field jacked and headed to the south side, got off the ell at 47th st and began to wander about------nobody offered to do me harm---after an hour or so, i went into a bar and ordered a whiskey---(I had just seen the bartender pour one for an older black man and charge him $0.75) so, he poured me one and said "$1.50."
    I protested saying, "just 'cause I'm white don't mean I'm rich--charge me the $.75"-----he glared at me, when several other patrons(all black, 'cepting me) began to shout that he should treat me fairly. One guy even offered to "but the vet a drink". Later, I went out and continued my wandering, when I met a black man who queried "what are you doing here?", To which, I responded, "just wandering around". He then told me that it wasn't safe for white folks in this neighborhood, and told me that he wanted to walk me to the ell, and see me safely out of that neighborhood---------this guy paid my way onto the ell, and even paid for himself so he could come up onto the platform and see me safely off----saying that, he'd feel terrible if he read that something bad had happened to me in the next days papers.

    Free will?
    Only if you can ignore the crap refuse to be brainwashed, and exercise it.
    Freedom isn't free, it takes some work to make it real.
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  39. #539  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    "Free will " does not exist
    You are wrong.

    There is a genius duck that knows that it exist. He have seen it, taste it. Even if it is contradiction with every known scientific theories, being "creating something form nothing" or "having free lunch" or being able to will himself into the master of the forum, he knows that it exist.

    Do you think he is free to admit his shortcomings ? Yes of course. He is free, you known.
    He is even free of making any rational argumentation, that is why he does not do any.
    Not genius , Super genius
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    that is true . our genes put the bricks in our behavior wall, but life sometimes breaks it and we build a new wall. if you never feel in danger, i mean social, psychological, surviving, or something that makes us to think more. and rethink more. and i think if u give to someone a sandwich everyday he will believe you for everything you say. stop giving him sandwich and he will blame you for not giving. he will wait for that sandwich , cry for it. and maybe one day he will understand how to go there and get it by itself. that's where free will comes in play
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    hi, when...does...being...wrong
    ...make...us...right?

    peace&love...vern

    p.s...when...we...accept...it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000 View Post
    Contrary to you quacking boring void and superbly poetic assertions.

    You cannot recognize evidence, so stop pretend to know what that means. Ho, I forgot, you have not that will even if it is gratis.

    That's quite enough with the personal attacks. Enjoy your week off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyman View Post
    do we realy have free will?the more I find out about psychology the more I learn that all emotions and everything about us is decided by our genes and memes.so do we realy have free will or are all our decisions controlled by our genes and memes?
    Of course we absolutely have free will. There is absolutely no question about it. To illustrate as a vivid example, ask yourself who is typing your thread into the forum. Your answer cannot be that it is your genes or that it is your memes. It is YOU who are exercising your free will and therefore moving your brain and body around the keyboard, and not the other way round. Most of what we do is certainly determined to an unfortunately rather large extent by our brains which have learned over the years through habit formations to automatically do all kinds of activities. By and large, this is what we mostly end up doing and thinking. But the moment YOU "consciously" decide to lift an arm or a foot, then you are actually exercising your Free Will. The brain indeed came before the mind, but eventually it is the mind that sculpts the brain through the choices we freely make and the decisions we freely take on a day to day basis. So I hope that I have explained myself rather clearly. Any further questions on the subject are most welcome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey View Post
    How can you have free will if every thought and action is determined by a limited structure that allows for a limited range of output and input.
    You are referring to something nowadays known as "materialist reductionism". This is the old fashioned belief that the brain is immutable and fixed in its structure after our childhood is over and cannot possibly be changed in any way after that. But new research has empirically proven that the very opposite is actually true. Most of us is preprogrammed from our past through habit formations. But it is in the very present that we can choose to alter our brain chemistry through the application of our "mental force" that is generated by our "free will". It has nowadays come to be extremely well known that the brain CAN and indeed DOES change beyond our childhood. It is the will that generates the force to allow this process to take place. It is not the "gelatinous brain" that does the thinking or planning for us since it is nothing but an organ. It is the "conscious mind" that allows this process to occur from moment to moment, and from day to day. So there really is no limit to anything we can do, provided we freely choose and freely decide to do it. THAT is the essence of humanity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Of course we absolutely have free will. There is absolutely no question about it. To illustrate as a vivid example, ask yourself who is typing your thread into the forum. Your answer cannot be that it is your genes or that it is your memes.
    Then, why are memes so pronounced in peoples typing styles? Why do people have great difficulty changing their style and cannot do it at the drop of a hat?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It is YOU who are exercising your free will and therefore moving your brain and body around the keyboard,
    So "YOU" are moving your brain around...
    Karl Pilkington, the Onion, and the Problem of Free Will - YouTube
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    and not the other way round.
    Yes, because the brain/body must listen to you, right? Nonsense, the mind brain and body are all the same thing. Separate parts of the same unit. One cannot exist without the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Most of what we do is certainly determined to an unfortunately rather large extent by our brains which have learned over the years through habit formations to automatically do all kinds of activities.
    Accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    By and large, this is what we mostly end up doing and thinking. But the moment YOU "consciously" decide to lift an arm or a foot, then you are actually exercising your Free Will.
    What made you consciously decide to do that?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The brain indeed came before the mind
    No, it didn't. They are the same exact thing. The mind is not a separate entity and then there is the brain... You are talking like Karl Pilkington above:
    'There's the Brain, then there's the Mind, then there is YOU.'
    Right?
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    So I hope that I have explained myself rather clearly.
    Not really, no.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Any further questions on the subject are most welcome.
    Did you write the post?
    Did your mind write the post?
    Did your brain write the post?
    Or was a it the unit itself? And what made you write it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyman View Post
    do we realy have free will?the more I find out about psychology the more I learn that all emotions and everything about us is decided by our genes and memes.so do we realy have free will or are all our decisions controlled by our genes and memes?
    Of course we absolutely have free will. There is absolutely no question about it. To illustrate as a vivid example, ask yourself who is typing your thread into the forum. Your answer cannot be that it is your genes or that it is your memes. It is YOU who are exercising your free will and therefore moving your brain and body around the keyboard, and not the other way round. Most of what we do is certainly determined to an unfortunately rather large extent by our brains which have learned over the years through habit formations to automatically do all kinds of activities. By and large, this is what we mostly end up doing and thinking. But the moment YOU "consciously" decide to lift an arm or a foot, then you are actually exercising your Free Will. The brain indeed came before the mind, but eventually it is the mind that sculpts the brain through the choices we freely make and the decisions we freely take on a day to day basis. So I hope that I have explained myself rather clearly. Any further questions on the subject are most welcome.
    I think you may be right. So I will not dispute your view, but I would like to know how you look at the difference between "will" and "desision", are they the same thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Of course we absolutely have free will. There is absolutely no question about it. To illustrate as a vivid example, ask yourself who is typing your thread into the forum. Your answer cannot be that it is your genes or that it is your memes.
    Then, why are memes so pronounced in peoples typing styles? Why do people have great difficulty changing their style and cannot do it at the drop of a hat?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It is YOU who are exercising your free will and therefore moving your brain and body around the keyboard,
    So "YOU" are moving your brain around...Karl Pilkington, the Onion, and the Problem of Free Will - YouTube
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    and not the other way round.
    Yes, because the brain/body must listen to you, right? Nonsense, the mind brain and body are all the same thing. Separate parts of the same unit. One cannot exist without the other.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Most of what we do is certainly determined to an unfortunately rather large extent by our brains which have learned over the years through habit formations to automatically do all kinds of activities.
    Accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    By and large, this is what we mostly end up doing and thinking. But the moment YOU "consciously" decide to lift an arm or a foot, then you are actually exercising your Free Will.
    What made you consciously decide to do that?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The brain indeed came before the mind
    No, it didn't. They are the same exact thing. The mind is not a separate entity and then there is the brain... You are talking like Karl Pilkington above:'There's the Brain, then there's the Mind, then there is YOU.'Right?No.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    So I hope that I have explained myself rather clearly.
    Not really, no.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Any further questions on the subject are most welcome.
    Did you write the post?Did your mind write the post?Did your brain write the post?Or was a it the unit itself? And what made you write it?
    -Simply because their brains are programmed in a certain way to do a certain thing in a certain manner. And to reprogram it takes a great deal of free will and mental force.-Yes, YOU are moving your brain AND your body around.-Yes, they MUST and they DO listen to you. It is YOU who are in the driver's seat for the rest of your life. The mind is a distinct ENTITY from the brain and from the body. It does not exist in a physical or tangible realm. Yet it depends on the physical and tangible brain to make it exist. You are correct in saying that one cannot exist without the other.-What made you consciously decide to lift an arm or a foot is YOU, your MIND. The brain cant do it because it is just an organic tissue and nothing else. -The brain DID come before the mind, and only through a process known as "synaptogenesis". They are NOT the same thing. That is an error of "duality". There is the brain and there is the mind, and the mind and the you/self are the same thing.-I did write the post. I and you/self and mind are all synonyms. My brain cannot write the post because it is just an organ.-What do you mean by a "unit"?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyman View Post
    do we realy have free will?the more I find out about psychology the more I learn that all emotions and everything about us is decided by our genes and memes.so do we realy have free will or are all our decisions controlled by our genes and memes?
    Of course we absolutely have free will. There is absolutely no question about it. To illustrate as a vivid example, ask yourself who is typing your thread into the forum. Your answer cannot be that it is your genes or that it is your memes. It is YOU who are exercising your free will and therefore moving your brain and body around the keyboard, and not the other way round. Most of what we do is certainly determined to an unfortunately rather large extent by our brains which have learned over the years through habit formations to automatically do all kinds of activities. By and large, this is what we mostly end up doing and thinking. But the moment YOU "consciously" decide to lift an arm or a foot, then you are actually exercising your Free Will. The brain indeed came before the mind, but eventually it is the mind that sculpts the brain through the choices we freely make and the decisions we freely take on a day to day basis. So I hope that I have explained myself rather clearly. Any further questions on the subject are most welcome.
    I think you may be right. So I will not dispute your view, but I would like to know how you look at the difference between "will" and "desision", are they the same thing?
    Will, decision, and choice are the same thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The mind is a distinct ENTITY from the brain and from the body.
    Do you have any evidence at all for this assertion?
    Anything from a peer reviewed medical journal, perhaps?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The brain cant do it because it is just an organic tissue and nothing else.
    Nonsense. The brain is part of a complex nervous and lymphatic system. It is central to nervous reactions and behavior. It is the ONLY reality, not souls, spirits, minds or whatever other magic you are trying to claim is involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    What do you mean by a "unit"?
    This question demonstrates why you are pushing the fallacy that the mind is a separate entity from the brain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The mind is a distinct ENTITY from the brain and from the body.
    Do you have any evidence at all for this assertion?Anything from a peer reviewed medical journal, perhaps?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The brain cant do it because it is just an organic tissue and nothing else.
    Nonsense. The brain is part of a complex nervous and lymphatic system. It is central to nervous reactions and behavior. It is the ONLY reality, not souls, spirits, minds or whatever other magic you are trying to claim is involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    What do you mean by a "unit"?
    This question demonstrates why you are pushing the fallacy that the mind is a separate entity from the brain.
    Yep, recent issue of Journal of Consciousness Studies. Again, do not stick with old fashioned materialistic nonsense. Quantum Physics directly proves the creation of the mind via the brain. If you are unwilling to accept this fact, then let us not bother discussing it any further. It is the American team of psychiatrists that have come up with this fact as long ago as 2008.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The mind is a distinct ENTITY from the brain and from the body.
    Do you have any evidence at all for this assertion?Anything from a peer reviewed medical journal, perhaps?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    The brain cant do it because it is just an organic tissue and nothing else.
    Nonsense. The brain is part of a complex nervous and lymphatic system. It is central to nervous reactions and behavior. It is the ONLY reality, not souls, spirits, minds or whatever other magic you are trying to claim is involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    What do you mean by a "unit"?
    This question demonstrates why you are pushing the fallacy that the mind is a separate entity from the brain.
    Yep, recent issue of Journal of Consciousness Studies. Again, do not stick with old fashioned materialistic nonsense. Quantum Physics directly proves the creation of the mind via the brain. If you are unwilling to accept this fact, then let us not bother discussing it any further. It is the American team of psychiatrists that have come up with this fact as long ago as 2008.
    If you would like to think that the mind is a sort of "user illusion", then welcome to the majority of people refusing to accept the opposite. And they are not one unit, but two seperate units or entitites. Again, Quantum Physics has already proven it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Yep, recent issue of Journal of Consciousness Studies.
    Are you deliberately withholding information to make it difficult to find? Why don't you support your claims with evidence instead of asking me to do your work for you with vague hints as to which direction to look in?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Again, do not stick with old fashioned materialistic nonsense.
    Spiritualism is a lot older fashioned nonsense...
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quantum Physics directly proves the creation of the mind via the brain.
    How so and how does it "prove" that the mind is a separate thing, a separate entity from the brain?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    If you are unwilling to accept this fact
    I have no reason to just accept your bold assertions with no evidence as blind faith. Support your claims with Hard Evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It is the American team of psychiatrists that have come up with this fact as long ago as 2008.
    Who? Where were their conclusions published? What were their names? What was the study? And how does it "prove" your claims?
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyman View Post
    do we realy have free will?the more I find out about psychology the more I learn that all emotions and everything about us is decided by our genes and memes.so do we realy have free will or are all our decisions controlled by our genes and memes?
    Of course we absolutely have free will. There is absolutely no question about it. To illustrate as a vivid example, ask yourself who is typing your thread into the forum. Your answer cannot be that it is your genes or that it is your memes. It is YOU who are exercising your free will and therefore moving your brain and body around the keyboard, and not the other way round. Most of what we do is certainly determined to an unfortunately rather large extent by our brains which have learned over the years through habit formations to automatically do all kinds of activities. By and large, this is what we mostly end up doing and thinking. But the moment YOU "consciously" decide to lift an arm or a foot, then you are actually exercising your Free Will. The brain indeed came before the mind, but eventually it is the mind that sculpts the brain through the choices we freely make and the decisions we freely take on a day to day basis. So I hope that I have explained myself rather clearly. Any further questions on the subject are most welcome.
    I think you may be right. So I will not dispute your view, but I would like to know how you look at the difference between "will" and "desision", are they the same thing?
    Will, decision, and choice are the same thing.
    I think that MAYBE you are oversimplifying things here in order to focus your arguments...
    so I will within limits accept your decision. But I feel that IF you are trying to understand " consciousness "
    then there IS some difference between "will " and "decision"
    since wills at any moment in time consists of a set you must decide to select just ONE will out of many from.
    To do or not to do is the question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey View Post
    How can you have free will if every thought and action is determined by a limited structure that allows for a limited range of output and input.
    You are referring to something nowadays known as "materialist reductionism". This is the old fashioned belief that the brain is immutable and fixed in its structure after our childhood is over and cannot possibly be changed in any way after that. But new research has empirically proven that the very opposite is actually true. Most of us is preprogrammed from our past through habit formations. But it is in the very present that we can choose to alter our brain chemistry through the application of our "mental force" that is generated by our "free will". It has nowadays come to be extremely well known that the brain CAN and indeed DOES change beyond our childhood. It is the will that generates the force to allow this process to take place. It is not the "gelatinous brain" that does the thinking or planning for us since it is nothing but an organ. It is the "conscious mind" that allows this process to occur from moment to moment, and from day to day. So there really is no limit to anything we can do, provided we freely choose and freely decide to do it. THAT is the essence of humanity.
    He's not suggesting materialist reductionist at all and not suggesting the brain's immutably.

    What you wrote seems to be in short, and without the extraneous mumbo-jumbo terms such as "mental force" that one part of the brain can influence and even change other parts of the brain which no one denies. But there are certainly limits to what can be changed and what parts can be influenced by the parts of our brain that produce conscious thoughts and visa versa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    You are referring to something nowadays known as "materialist reductionism". This is the old fashioned belief that the brain is immutable and fixed in its structure after our childhood is over and cannot possibly be changed in any way after that.
    That is not what "materialist reductionism" means at all. Neuroplasticity has been known about for a pretty long time; even by materialist reductionists.

    It is not the "gelatinous brain" that does the thinking or planning for us since it is nothing but an organ. It is the "conscious mind" that allows this process to occur from moment to moment, and from day to day.
    As far as I can tell, the "conscious mind" is just a creation of the "gelatinous (*) brain." I have yet to see any evidence to the contrary. (That might be materialist reductionism, you would have to ask a philosopher.)

    (*) Describing the brain as "gelatinous" is about as accurate as your definition of materialist reductionism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    To do or not to do is the question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamlet
    To be or not to be, that is the question.
    Or
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Sinatra
    Doo-be doo-be doo
    Lynx_Fox and PhDemon like this.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Yep, recent issue of Journal of Consciousness Studies. Again, do not stick with old fashioned materialistic nonsense. If you are unwilling to accept this fact, then let us not bother discussing it any further. It is the American team of psychiatrists that have come up with this fact as long ago as 2008.
    There appears to be a strong correlation between extreme gullibility and the inability to provide specific references.

    I can prove this because there was a study done some where by some guys. You can look it up.

    Quantum Physics directly proves the creation of the mind via the brain.
    I can refute this, providing twice as much evidence as you: No it doesn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    To do or not to do is the question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamlet
    To be or not to be, that is the question.
    Or
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Sinatra
    Doo-be doo-be doo
    Old stuff. I think Sartre was in the original enumeration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    after 516 posts the "topic" remains unexplainedhow many logicians does it take to "screw in a lightbulb"?or, in the case in question, to "screw up a topic"?
    Historically the great advances in physics have occurred when scientists united two seemingly disparate entities into a coherent logical whole. Newton connected celestial motions with terrestrial motion. Maxwell unified light and electromagnetism. Einstein did it for space and time. Quantum theory makes exactly this kind of connection, between the objective physical world and subjective experiences. It thus offers a way out of the "MORASS" that the mind-brain debate has become, because it departs most profoundly from classical physics at a crucial point: on the nature of the dynamical interplay between minds and physical states, between "physical" states and "consciousness."
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    @Sigurdv What do you want to prove?Free willthen you have to give proof of GOD
    If you think that free will does NOT exist, then ask yourself one simple question: what makes you think or act when you use your computer keyboard? Is it your brain, which is only matter, and therefore cannot think, or is it your mind, which can and does think?
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    I'm a little late to the party but I heard something about free will over here. Which would be awesome because as it is, I've always had to pay a monthy subscription. So is this some sneaky shady underhanded deal you guys got by bribing the will installation guy or is there some new company debuting to shake things up in the will provider market?
    Historically the great advances in physics have occurred when scientists united two seemingly disparate entities into a coherent logical whole. Newton connected celestial motions with terrestrial motion. Maxwell unified light and electromagnetism. Einstein did it for space and time. Quantum theory makes exactly this kind of connection, between the objective physical world and subjective experiences. It thus offers a way out of the "MORASS" that the mind-brain debate has become, because it departs most profoundly from classical physics at a crucial point: on the nature of the dynamical interplay between minds and physical states, between "physical" states and "consciousness."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Yep, recent issue of Journal of Consciousness Studies.
    Are you deliberately withholding information to make it difficult to find? Why don't you support your claims with evidence instead of asking me to do your work for you with vague hints as to which direction to look in?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Again, do not stick with old fashioned materialistic nonsense.
    Spiritualism is a lot older fashioned nonsense...
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quantum Physics directly proves the creation of the mind via the brain.
    How so and how does it "prove" that the mind is a separate thing, a separate entity from the brain?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    If you are unwilling to accept this fact
    I have no reason to just accept your bold assertions with no evidence as blind faith. Support your claims with Hard Evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It is the American team of psychiatrists that have come up with this fact as long ago as 2008.
    Who? Where were their conclusions published? What were their names? What was the study? And how does it "prove" your claims?
    Forget them. Because if YOU think that the mind is a sort of "user illusion", then welcome to the large camp of "materialistic reductionists." Classical Science explains it all as far as the mats reds are concerned, so Quantum Theory is wrong. Then so is Science and NewScientist magazine. With acknowledgments from Dr. Alvaro-Pascual Leone of Harvard Medical School.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey View Post
    How can you have free will if every thought and action is determined by a limited structure that allows for a limited range of output and input.
    You are referring to something nowadays known as "materialist reductionism". This is the old fashioned belief that the brain is immutable and fixed in its structure after our childhood is over and cannot possibly be changed in any way after that. But new research has empirically proven that the very opposite is actually true. Most of us is preprogrammed from our past through habit formations. But it is in the very present that we can choose to alter our brain chemistry through the application of our "mental force" that is generated by our "free will". It has nowadays come to be extremely well known that the brain CAN and indeed DOES change beyond our childhood. It is the will that generates the force to allow this process to take place. It is not the "gelatinous brain" that does the thinking or planning for us since it is nothing but an organ. It is the "conscious mind" that allows this process to occur from moment to moment, and from day to day. So there really is no limit to anything we can do, provided we freely choose and freely decide to do it. THAT is the essence of humanity.
    He's not suggesting materialist reductionist at all and not suggesting the brain's immutably.What you wrote seems to be in short, and without the extraneous mumbo-jumbo terms such as "mental force" that one part of the brain can influence and even change other parts of the brain which no one denies. But there are certainly limits to what can be changed and what parts can be influenced by the parts of our brain that produce conscious thoughts and visa versa.
    Thank you for the acks. That process is referred to as "use-dependent cortical remapping." The limits which you speak of, if there are any at all, as far as I have read, extend to recovery from full blown hemisphericotomies, even at ages as much as 20. The brain rewires itself continuously throughout life. Dr. Norman Doidge has a best seller on this particular subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Yep, recent issue of Journal of Consciousness Studies. Again, do not stick with old fashioned materialistic nonsense. If you are unwilling to accept this fact, then let us not bother discussing it any further. It is the American team of psychiatrists that have come up with this fact as long ago as 2008.
    There appears to be a strong correlation between extreme gullibility and the inability to provide specific references. I can prove this because there was a study done some where by some guys. You can look it up.
    Quantum Physics directly proves the creation of the mind via the brain.
    I can refute this, providing twice as much evidence as you: No it doesn't.
    There seems to be a strong evasion of the facts of reality here. It doesn't matter because that's simply what most people seem to choose to do anyway when presented with new and logical information, barring appeals to authorities they don't even know exist. I would love that evidence you are talking about. I am NOT one who is unwilling to accept the truth. So give it to me and I shall see for myself what you are claiming or opposing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    There seems to be a strong evasion of the facts of reality here. It doesn't matter because that's simply what most people seem to choose to do anyway when presented with new and logical information, barring appeals to authorities they don't even know exist. I would love that evidence you are talking about. I am NOT one who is unwilling to accept the truth. So give it to me and I shall see for myself what you are claiming or opposing.
    (Chuckle)
    How ironic- Because he was mimicking you, bonehead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyman View Post
    do we realy have free will?the more I find out about psychology the more I learn that all emotions and everything about us is decided by our genes and memes.so do we realy have free will or are all our decisions controlled by our genes and memes?
    Of course we absolutely have free will. There is absolutely no question about it. To illustrate as a vivid example, ask yourself who is typing your thread into the forum. Your answer cannot be that it is your genes or that it is your memes. It is YOU who are exercising your free will and therefore moving your brain and body around the keyboard, and not the other way round. Most of what we do is certainly determined to an unfortunately rather large extent by our brains which have learned over the years through habit formations to automatically do all kinds of activities. By and large, this is what we mostly end up doing and thinking. But the moment YOU "consciously" decide to lift an arm or a foot, then you are actually exercising your Free Will. The brain indeed came before the mind, but eventually it is the mind that sculpts the brain through the choices we freely make and the decisions we freely take on a day to day basis. So I hope that I have explained myself rather clearly. Any further questions on the subject are most welcome.
    I think you may be right. So I will not dispute your view, but I would like to know how you look at the difference between "will" and "desision", are they the same thing?
    Will, decision, and choice are the same thing.
    I think that MAYBE you are oversimplifying things here in order to focus your arguments...so I will within limits accept your decision. But I feel that IF you are trying to understand " consciousness " then there IS some difference between "will " and "decision" since wills at any moment in time consists of a set you must decide to select just ONE will out of many from.To do or not to do is the question.
    Jean-Paul Sartre was an existentialist who was wrong in so many ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Yep, recent issue of Journal of Consciousness Studies.
    Are you deliberately withholding information to make it difficult to find? Why don't you support your claims with evidence instead of asking me to do your work for you with vague hints as to which direction to look in?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Again, do not stick with old fashioned materialistic nonsense.
    Spiritualism is a lot older fashioned nonsense...
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quantum Physics directly proves the creation of the mind via the brain.
    How so and how does it "prove" that the mind is a separate thing, a separate entity from the brain?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    If you are unwilling to accept this fact
    I have no reason to just accept your bold assertions with no evidence as blind faith. Support your claims with Hard Evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It is the American team of psychiatrists that have come up with this fact as long ago as 2008.
    Who? Where were their conclusions published? What were their names? What was the study? And how does it "prove" your claims?
    Look up something called "Bereitschaftpotential."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Yep, recent issue of Journal of Consciousness Studies.
    Are you deliberately withholding information to make it difficult to find? Why don't you support your claims with evidence instead of asking me to do your work for you with vague hints as to which direction to look in?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Again, do not stick with old fashioned materialistic nonsense.
    Spiritualism is a lot older fashioned nonsense...
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quantum Physics directly proves the creation of the mind via the brain.
    How so and how does it "prove" that the mind is a separate thing, a separate entity from the brain?
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    If you are unwilling to accept this fact
    I have no reason to just accept your bold assertions with no evidence as blind faith. Support your claims with Hard Evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It is the American team of psychiatrists that have come up with this fact as long ago as 2008.
    Who? Where were their conclusions published? What were their names? What was the study? And how does it "prove" your claims?
    In neurology, the Bereitschaftspotential or BP (from German, "readiness potential"), also called the pre-motor potential or readiness potential (RP), is a measure of activity in the motor cortex and supplementary motor area of the brain leading up to VOLUNTARY muscle movement. The BP is a manifestation of cortical contribution to the pre-motor planning of VOLITIONAL movement. It was first recorded and reported in 1964 by Hans Helmut Kornhuber and Lüder Deecke at the University of Freiburg in Germany. In 1965 the full publication appeared after many control experiments.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It is the American team of psychiatrists that have come up with this fact as long ago as 2008.
    Who? Where were their conclusions published? What were their names? What was the study? And how does it "prove" your claims?
    Forget them
    So, once again, when asked to back up your claims you dodge and evade. Perhaps we should assume there was no such team of psychiatrists and no such research and no such "fact". Perhaps you made it all up.

    Classical Science explains it all as far as the mats reds are concerned, so Quantum Theory is wrong.
    That is neither logical nor true.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It doesn't matter because that's simply what most people seem to choose to do anyway when presented with new and logical information
    What you have presented is not new and not logical.

    I would love that evidence you are talking about.
    Apparently you missed the not-so subtle point: I provided no evidence to refute your assertion because you have provided no evidence to support it.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Is it your brain, which is only matter, and therefore cannot think
    You love your unsupported assertions, don't you.

    Here's another one: yes it can.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It is the American team of psychiatrists that have come up with this fact as long ago as 2008.
    Who? Where were their conclusions published? What were their names? What was the study? And how does it "prove" your claims?
    Forget them
    So, once again, when asked to back up your claims you dodge and evade. Perhaps we should assume there was no such team of psychiatrists and no such research and no such "fact". Perhaps you made it all up.
    Classical Science explains it all as far as the mats reds are concerned, so Quantum Theory is wrong.
    That is neither logical nor true.
    Because you were not listening to my PM to you in which I said very clearly that I would gladly provide you the name and also the author of the book to back up my claims. I wonder only why you ignored that one and dodged and evaded it? And I was just being sarcastic about Quantum Theory being wrong!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    It doesn't matter because that's simply what most people seem to choose to do anyway when presented with new and logical information
    What you have presented is not new and not logical.
    I would love that evidence you are talking about.
    Apparently you missed the not-so subtle point: I provided no evidence to refute your assertion because you have provided no evidence to support it.
    It will appear new and logical ONCE and only ONCE after you have read it. I mean the BOOK I PM'd you about. But I now suspect very strongly that you don't want it because it would TOO directly CONTRADICT your thoughts and belief systems. Right, Mr. Strange?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Is it your brain, which is only matter, and therefore cannot think
    You love your unsupported assertions, don't you.Here's another one: yes it can.
    Explain to me how a machine like the brain can think. Explain how meat like a brain can think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Is it your brain, which is only matter, and therefore cannot think
    You love your unsupported assertions, don't you.Here's another one: yes it can.
    http://www-physics.lbl.gov/~stapp/PTRS.pdf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Is it your brain, which is only matter, and therefore cannot think
    You love your unsupported assertions, don't you.Here's another one: yes it can.
    To explicate the physics of the interface between mind/consciousness and the physical brain, we shall in this article describe in detail how the quantum mechanically based causal mechanisms work, and show why it is necessary in principle to advance to the quantum level to achieve an adequate theory of the neurophysiology of volitionally directed activity. The reason, essentially, is that classic physics is an approxi- mation to the more accurate quantum theory, and that this classic approximation eliminates the causal efficacy of our conscious efforts that these experiments empirically manifest. Read, VOLITIONALLY.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Is it your brain, which is only matter, and therefore cannot think
    You love your unsupported assertions, don't you.Here's another one: yes it can.
    (e.g. the entire September–October 2003 issue of Journal of Consciousness Studies, volume 10, number 9–10, is dedicated to these questions)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    There seems to be a strong evasion of the facts of reality here. It doesn't matter because that's simply what most people seem to choose to do anyway when presented with new and logical information, barring appeals to authorities they don't even know exist. I would love that evidence you are talking about. I am NOT one who is unwilling to accept the truth. So give it to me and I shall see for myself what you are claiming or opposing.
    (Chuckle)How ironic- Because he was mimicking you, bonehead.
    Or rather, the other way round, I believe, tissue-face.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    There seems to be a strong evasion of the facts of reality here. It doesn't matter because that's simply what most people seem to choose to do anyway when presented with new and logical information, barring appeals to authorities they don't even know exist. I would love that evidence you are talking about. I am NOT one who is unwilling to accept the truth. So give it to me and I shall see for myself what you are claiming or opposing.
    (Chuckle)How ironic- Because he was mimicking you, bonehead.
    Here are your references. Was provided by Strange himself. REFERENCES Beauregard, M., Le ́vesque, J. & Bourgouin, P. 2001 Neural correlates of the conscious self-regulation of emotion. J. Neurosci. 21, 1–6.Bohm, D. 1952 A suggested interpretation of quantum theory in terms of hidden variables. Phys. Rev. 85, 166–179.Bohm, D. J. 1986 A new theory of the relationship of mind to matter. J. Am. Soc. Psychic. Res. 80, 113–135.Bohm, D. J. 1990 A new theory of the relationship of mind to matter. Phil. Psychol. 3, 271–286.Bohm, D. & Hiley, D. J. 1993 The undivided universe. London: Routledge.Bohr, N. 1958 Atomic physics and human knowledge. New York: Wiley.Bohr, N. 1963 Essays 1958–1962 on atomic physics and human knowledge. New York: Wiley.Cataldi, M., Perez-Reyes, E. & Tsien, R. W. 2002 Difference in apparent pore sizes of low and high voltage-activated Ca2C channels. J. Biol. Chem. 277, 45 969–45 976.Everett, H. 1957 Relative state formulation of quantum mechanics. Rev. Mod. Phys. 29, 454–462.Gell-Mann, M. & Hartle, J. B. 1989 Quantum mechanics in the light of quantum cosmology. In Proceedings of Third International Symposium Foundation of Quantum Mechanics (ed. S. Kobayashi). pp. 321–343. Tokyo: Physical Society of Japan.Hagen, S., Hameroff, S. & Tuszynski, J. 2002 Quantum computation in brain microtules: decoherence and bio- logical feasibility. Phys. Rev. E65, 061901-1–061901-11.Hameroff, S. & Penrose, R. 1996 Orchestrated reduction of quantum coherence in brain microtubules: a model for consciousness. J. Conscious. Stud. 3, 36–53.Heisenberg, W. 1958 The representation of nature in contemporary physics. Daedalus 87, 95–108.James, W. 1890 The principles of psychology, vol. I. New York: Dover.James, W. 1892 Psychology: the briefer course William James: writings 1879–1899. New York: Library of America (1992). Le ́ vesque, J., Joanette, Y., Paquette, V., Mensour, B., Beaudoin, G., Leroux, J.-M., Bourgouin, P. & Beauregard, M. 2003 Neural circuitry underlying voluntary self-regulation of sadness. Biol. Psychiatry 53,502–510.Misra, B. & Sudarshan, E. C. G. 1977 The Zeno’s paradox inquantum theory. J. Math. Phys. 18, 756–763.Musso, M., Weiller, C., Kiebel, S., Muller, S. P., Bulau, P. & Rijntjes, M. 1999 Training-induced brain plasticity inaphasia. Brain 122, 1781–1790.Newton, I. 1964 Principia mathematica. In Newton’s principia(ed. F. Cajori). p. 634. Berkeley: University of CaliforniaPress.Nyanaponika, T. 1973 The heart of Buddhist meditation. YorkBeach, ME: Samuel Weiser.Nyanaponika, T. 2000 The vision of Dhamma: Buddhistwritings of Nyanaponika Thera. Seattle, WA: BPS Pariyatti Editions.Ochsner, K. N., Bunge, S. A., Gross, J. J. & Gabrieli, J. D. E. 2002 Rethinking feelings: an fMRI study of the cognitive regulation of emotion. J. Cogn. Neurosci. 14, 1215–1229.Paquette, V., Le ́vesque, J., Mensour, B., Leroux, J.-M., Beaudoin, G., Bourgouin, P. & Beauregard, M. 2003 “Change the mind and you change the brain”: effects of cognitive-behavioral therapy on the neural correlates of spider phobia. NeuroImage 18, 401–409.Pashler, H. 1998 The psychology of attention. Cambridge, MA: MIT Press.Pauli, W. 1955 The influence of archetypal ideas on the scientific theories of Kepler. The Interpretation of nature and the psyche. London: Routledge & Kegan Paul.Penrose, R. 1994 Shadows of the mind. New York: Oxford. Putnam, H. 1994 Book review of Shadows of the mind, by Roger Penrose. New York Times Book Review, November 20, p. 7. See http://www.ams.org/bull/pre-1996-dat...5.pdf.Schwartz, J. M. 1998 Neuroanatomical aspects of cognitive- behavioural therapy response in obsessive–compulsive disorder: an evolving perspective on brain and behavior. Br. J. Psychiatry 173(Suppl. 35), 39–45.Schwartz, J. M. & Begley, S. 2002 The mind and the brain: neuroplasticity and the power of mental force. New York: Harper Collins.Schwartz, J. M., Stoessel, P. W., Baxter, L. R., Jr, Martin, K. M. & Phelps, M. E. 1996 Systematic changes in cerebral glucose metabolic rate after successful behavior modification treatment of obsessive–compulsive disorder. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 53, 109–113.Segal, Z. V., Williams, J., Mark, G. & Teasdale, J. D. 2002 Mindfulness-based cognitive therapy for depression. New York: Guilford Press.Spence, S. S. & Frith, C. 1999 Towards a functional anatomy of volition. The volitional brain: towards a neuroscience of free will (ed. B. Libet, A. Freeman & K. Sutherland), pp. 11–29. Thorverton, UK: Imprint Academic.Sperry, R. W. 1992 Turnabout on consciousness: a mentalist view. J. Mind Behav. 13, 259–280.Stapp, H. P. 1990 Quantum measurement and the mind– brain connection. In Symposium on the Foundations of Modern Physics (ed. P. Lahti & P. Mittelstaedt), pp. 403– 424. Singapore: World Scientific.Stapp, H. P. 1993/2003 Mind, matter, and quantum mechanics. New York: Springer-Verlag.Stapp, H. P. 2002 The basis problem in many-worlds theories. Can. J. Phys. 80, 1043–1052.Tegmark, M. 2000 Importance of quantum decoherence in brain process. Phys. Rev. E61, 4194–4206.Toga, A. W. & Mazziotta, J. C. 2000 Brain mapping the systems. San Diego: Academic Press.von Neumann, J. 1955 Mathematical foundations of quantum theory. Princeton: Princeton University Press.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Look up something called "Bereitschaftpotential."
    Could you explain how you think this is even vaguely relevant?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Explain to me how a machine like the brain can think. Explain how meat like a brain can think.
    You appear to have a pretty weak grasp of logic and critical thinking.

    "Don't know" != "impossible"

    Although, of course, there is an awful lot known about how the brain works. And none of it, so far, seems to require magic.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Is it your brain, which is only matter, and therefore cannot think
    You love your unsupported assertions, don't you.Here's another one: yes it can.
    To explicate the physics of the interface between mind/consciousness and the physical brain, we shall in this article describe in detail how the quantum mechanically based causal mechanisms work, and show why it is necessary in principle to advance to the quantum level to achieve an adequate theory of the neurophysiology of volitionally directed activity. The reason, essentially, is that classic physics is an approxi- mation to the more accurate quantum theory, and that this classic approximation eliminates the causal efficacy of our conscious efforts that these experiments empirically manifest. Read, VOLITIONALLY.
    Even if quantum effects are relevant to the operation of the brain (which is, at present, highly speculative) that says nothing about the sort of Magic Spirits you are talking about.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Is it your brain, which is only matter, and therefore cannot think
    You love your unsupported assertions, don't you.Here's another one: yes it can.
    (e.g. the entire September–October 2003 issue of Journal of Consciousness Studies, volume 10, number 9–10, is dedicated to these questions)
    And is the answer to any of those questions: "matter cannot think"? I doubt it, as we have pretty good evidence it can. (But thanks for providing yourself as a counter example.)
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Look up something called "Bereitschaftpotential."
    Could you explain how you think this is even vaguely relevant?
    Please google it and find out for yourself instead of making me copy and paste it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Explain to me how a machine like the brain can think. Explain how meat like a brain can think.
    You appear to have a pretty weak grasp of logic and critical thinking. "Don't know" != "impossible"Although, of course, there is an awful lot known about how the brain works. And none of it, so far, seems to require magic.
    I am ending this pointless argument because it is leading nowhere. Best of luck with your magical and old fashioned theories and concepts. Stick to them and avoid trying to learn anything new, mr ego. I wonder why I am trying to convince the ones who don't want to be convinced. Of what, they say and on and on. End of debate for me. Not wasting my time around here any more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Please google it and find out for yourself instead of making me copy and paste it.
    Don't be a dick. I know what it means. As Libet's experiments have shown, brain activity starts before we are consciously aware of having made a decision. As we are not aware of most of the processing our brain does, this is hardly surprising.

    Now, can you explain how you think it is relevant to your ideas about some magic undetectable "mind force" or whatever hogwash it is you are promoting.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Please google it and find out for yourself instead of making me copy and paste it.
    Don't be a dick. I know what it means. As Libet's experiments have shown, brain activity starts before we are consciously aware of having made a decision. As we are not aware of most of the processing our brain does, this is hardly surprising.Now, can you explain how you think it is relevant to your ideas about some magic undetectable "mind force" or whatever hogwash it is you are promoting.
    Last time. Read the BOOK and find out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Please google it and find out for yourself instead of making me copy and paste it.
    Don't be a dick. I know what it means. As Libet's experiments have shown, brain activity starts before we are consciously aware of having made a decision. As we are not aware of most of the processing our brain does, this is hardly surprising.Now, can you explain how you think it is relevant to your ideas about some magic undetectable "mind force" or whatever hogwash it is you are promoting.
    If you choose not to that is your wish only. See ya.
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    now
    we're up to 588-589 postings and
    are we any closer to answering the op?

    Much like discussing "GOD", free will remains undefined with the precision needed to answer the op.
    This is standard problem with language which seeks to approximate assumed reality of which we actually know very little.

    If we establish a shared parameter of circumstances, and then querie as to "free will" within that set, then the answer would be obvious.
    But free will of subset is different from free will of set, and every set is itself a subset of a greator set which is a subset of a greater set... ad infinitum.

    Defining the ultimate set for which we could determine "free will" is something that all of the postulators, philosophers, psychiatrists, and psychologists, religious leaders, and hermits have been unable to do.

    Create for yourself a dark featureless prison of your own mind, wherein the only evidence of something outside is a tiny pinhole of light.
    Then choose to try and squeeze out through that pinhole, enlarge that pinhole, or plug the damned thing up so that you will no longer be interrupted in your musings.
    And, herein, you have an approximation of "free will" within self constructed sub set.
    zinjanthropos likes this.
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    alternately
    I invite everyone reading this _________________?
    to go to:
    Obliquity of the ecliptic
    and/or:
    The Ediacaran extinction

    and postulate, speculate, opine, or take your very own (wild guess du jour) about, around, or for, the therein postulations and queries.

    ------------------
    long ago and far away, when i was a student of the sciences, the most derisive comment about a particular postulation was
    "Yes, but that is philosophy. Not science!"
    ...........
    free will
    would you be scientists? or philosophers?
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    nowwe're up to 588-589 postings and are we any closer to answering the op?Much like discussing "GOD", free will remains undefined with the precision needed to answer the op.This is standard problem with language which seeks to approximate assumed reality of which we actually know very little.If we establish a shared parameter of circumstances, and then querie as to "free will" within that set, then the answer would be obvious.But free will of subset is different from free will of set, and every set is itself a subset of a greator set which is a subset of a greater set... ad infinitum.Defining the ultimate set for which we could determine "free will" is something that all of the postulators, philosophers, psychiatrists, and psychologists, religious leaders, and hermits have been unable to do.Create for yourself a dark featureless prison of your own mind, wherein the only evidence of something outside is a tiny pinhole of light.Then choose to try and squeeze out through that pinhole, enlarge that pinhole, or plug the damned thing up so that you will no longer be interrupted in your musings.And, herein, you have an approximation of "free will" within self constructed sub set.

    Look up something called "Bereitschaftpotential" in Google or Yahoo. That should set the record straight away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    alternatelyI invite everyone reading this _________________?to go to:Obliquity of the eclipticand/or:The Ediacaran extinctionand postulate, speculate, opine, or take your very own (wild guess du jour) about, around, or for, the therein postulations and queries.------------------long ago and far away, when i was a student of the sciences, the most derisive comment about a particular postulation was"Yes, but that is philosophy. Not science!"...........free willwould you be scientists? or philosophers?
    Buddhist Philosophy has been successful integrated with Quantum Physics in the landmark book by my favourite author. It is an unbelievable combination of oldest philosophies and newest sciences.
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  93. #593  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope sculptor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Look up something called "Bereitschaftpotential" in Google or Yahoo. That should set the record straight away.
    Not even a little bit.
    neural activity in apprehension of Voluntary muscle control?

    Is this your idea of humor?

    Can you will your heart to stop beating?
    Can you will your lungs to no longer inhale?
    can you will your neurons to be at rest------(completely)?

    You're still in subset dadio.
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  94. #594  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Buddhist Philosophy has been successful integrated with Quantum Physics
    Specious crap.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  95. #595  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Buddhist Philosophy has been successful integrated with Quantum Physics in the landmark book by my favourite author.
    a) What book?

    b) What author?

    c) Why so vague with the references all the time?

    d) No it hasn't. There's a thing by someone published sometime, somewhere that shows this to be wrong. It must be true because it's by my favourite author. (Ever heard of confirmation bias?)

    e)
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    End of debate for me. Not wasting my time around here any more.
    Bye.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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  96. #596  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Read the BOOK and find out.
    I might read the book if you gave me any reason to think it was even slightly credible. As it is you have convinced me it is a work of total fantasy.

    And, as far as I can tell, you haven't actually said what the book is... Am I mistaken? Author? Title? ISBN? Amazon link? Anything?

    Or are we supposed to know what you are talking about through some sort of Quantum Magic?
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Dr. Norman Doidge has a best seller on this particular subject.
    a) Psychiatrist, not a scientist.

    b) Bestseller, not science.

    c) Credibility, approximately 0.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Read the BOOK and find out.
    I might read the book if you gave me any reason to think it was even slightly credible. As it is you have convinced me it is a work of total fantasy.And, as far as I can tell, you haven't actually said what the book is... Am I mistaken? Author? Title? ISBN? Amazon link? Anything?Or are we supposed to know what you are talking about through some sort of Quantum Magic?
    I don't know why I have to do the hard work for you...
    Last edited by arjundeepakshriram; June 8th, 2013 at 11:22 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post
    Read the BOOK and find out.
    I might read the book if you gave me any reason to think it was even slightly credible. As it is you have convinced me it is a work of total fantasy.And, as far as I can tell, you haven't actually said what the book is... Am I mistaken? Author? Title? ISBN? Amazon link? Anything?Or are we supposed to know what you are talking about through some sort of Quantum Magic?
    I don't know why I have to do the hard work for you...
    I don't know why I am promoting a book out here...
    Last edited by arjundeepakshriram; June 8th, 2013 at 11:22 AM.
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  100. #600  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjundeepakshriram View Post

    I don't know why I am promoting a book out here...
    Have you heard of free will?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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