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Thread: Racial Profiling?

  1. #1 Racial Profiling? 
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    After the bombing in London serious questions are starting to be raised about how cities around the world. One of the biggest problems for advanced constitualized states is the question of racial profiling. It seems a tremendous waste for security forces time and energy to search a grandmothers bag and let another who is of obvious Arab, Indo descent with a bad pass by. The problem is many fold for nations who define themselves with individual rights and respect for the rule of law. One of the West's cornerstone legislative and constitutional tools is the presumption of innocence of all until they are deemed guilty. By racially profiling people we assume their guilt until they are proved innocent. Muslims around the world would point to this racial profiling as another example of a hypocritical West in relation to Muslims and showing the Islamic world that Muslims are nothing more then another persecuted minority in the non-Islamic world. This could cause there to be more and more attacks against the West as they see it as their duty to liberate Muslims from the shackles of Western hypocrisy and against the people of the Dar-ul-Islam. The counterargument is that its very simple to marginalize these people to the point where their vitrol will be just that and nothing more. The pro-profiling argument is that if we target our efforts at those who are Muslim, or racially Arab/Indo/Malay then the chances of those able to destroy our infrastructure will be marginalized, but the threat will not disappear as the terrorists will surely adapt by co-opting non-Arab/Indo/Malay Muslims to carry out the attacks, as new converts are identified as one of the easiest to co-opt to do these attacks, as stated by the Economist:

    These patterns of self-recruitment and self-radicalisation are a headache for security services, who have no easy way to infiltrate close-knit, local groups that operate at first without foreign help. But in the Netherlands the intelligence services reckon they have identified three broad categories of people from which actual and would-be terrorists are drawn: recent arrivals, second-generation members of immigrant communities, and converts.
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    The vast majority of “white” converts to Islam adhere to forms of the faith that eschew violence. But some of them turn to violent Islam in a spirit of alienation from society, or personal bitterness. Some are “rescued” from a life of petty crime; quite a few, like the shoe-bomber Richard Reid, are touched in prison. Lacking any sense of Islamic tradition, and perhaps eager to prove themselves to their new peers, they are susceptible to extremism.
    One of the London bombers was of Carribean/Afro descent and a recent convert to the religion. So to simply profile Arab/Indo/Malay will not be enough but it will eliminate a large portion of the threat. I do not believe that racial profiling should be nessecary if the Islamic community within the country actively reports threats, and sets examples of living a life compatible with not only their religion but one compatible with western values. But alternatively if the Islamic community does not start to co-operate in a much greater way then it is now, racial profiling is quite possibly the lesser of two great evils.


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  3. #2  
    Forum Professor wallaby's Avatar
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    1. not all Arabs are terrorists.
    2. not all terrorists are Arabs.
    3. this can be applied to any Race, Religon or Political group plus any other Terrorist group.


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  4. #3 Re: Racial Profiling? 
    Blah-blah blink. Ripley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    One of the biggest problems for advanced constitualized states is the question of racial profiling.
    I see nothing "advanced" about any form of profiling. The very idea is so absurdly retro that one can imagine Palaeolithic communes gawking with suspicious fear and high-strung impatience at distant approaching wanderers out of range. The notion of a "global community" was inconceivable many thousands of centuries ago, yet remained as a dormant possibility for a more advanced state of civilisation -- something, ironically, that is now in rapid decline. Back, it seems, to the hinterlands mankind is going.
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  5. #4  
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    wallaby

    1. not all Arabs are terrorists.
    2. not all terrorists are Arabs.
    3. this can be applied to any Race, Religon or Political group plus any other Terrorist group.


    Indeed this is true, but the problem is that the propensity of the terrorist group to be dominated by Arabs for instance compared to European stock is significantly greater. If the terrorists know that Arabs,Indo's, etc will be searched they will avoid using them thus critically crippling their abilities even if non-Arab/Indo Muslims are used. The sad fact is that we are living in a New World Order in which those who seek to harm us do not have uniforms, they do not want to be known to be terrorists, sadly democracies are reactionary, and if something like a dirty bomb were to go off the demands for segregation will increase to unbearable levels. One thing that all these terrorists do have in common is their adherence to Islam, which puts the majority of the Muslim community which is not supportive of this violence at great peril. The imperative is on the Muslim community to begin to regulate itself, and become pro-active with the authorities to avoid racial profiling because no one knows better then Muslim's themselves how to differentiate a extremist from a normal Muslim.

    ad . hoc

    I see nothing "advanced" about any form of profiling. The very idea is so absurdly retro that one can imagine Palaeolithic communes gawking with suspicious fear and high-strung impatience at distant approaching wanderers out of range.

    This is true, that racial profiling harks back to an era of ignorance and intolerance but the problem is that is racial profiling innately bad if the end result is security? If one racial profiles on the basis of racism then the criticism you present is warranted, but if one racially profiles out of nessecity is it innately bad? I am even conflicted with this question as a great deal many philosophical and ethical factors have to be considered. As the London bombings show the new crop of terrorists are homegrown and distinguished only by their race, their mannerisms, their accent, their dress is not unrepresentative of the general population of the nation they seek to attack. I agree that if we racial profile the effects maybe to further inflame the Muslim community to be even more resentful and attempt more attacks, but alternatively if the Muslim population's rights are somewhat more restricted the threat of their rhectoric will be marginalized. I do not support restricting rights as constitutional states we have a responsiblity to defend the rights of all people's, but as experiences in Germany, Argentina, Uruguay, Canada (under Trudeau the war measures act against the terrorist FLQ) all liberal democratic nations were forced into dictatorship, or semi-dictatorship from perceived, and real terrorist threats. Argentina, Uruguay and Canada succeded in destroying their terrorist threats...but at a great cost in the name of human rights it is a tremendous trade off, security vs. liberties.
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    The imperative is on the Muslim community to begin to regulate itself, and become pro-active with the authorities to avoid racial profiling...
    What authorities? Isn't that precisely why most home-grown political activists turn to extremism, and then to terror-tactics, because there are no authorities that will give them the time of day to hear their grievances, to settle on compromise or solutions before the damage is done? Doesn't anyone recall during the UN debate, about going to war with Iraq, the French warning the American-British coalition that going into Iraq would open a Pandora's Box? I should think that the imperative lies squarely on the Americans to begin regulating themselves and stop dictating or imposing their demands on how third-world nations should govern themselves -- but in the end it's all about commerce, isn't it, the rich against the poor? And recessed further away into this crises lies something else: it's all about human nature. It is not Arabs against Americans, Muslims against Christians, or the rich against the poor; it's mankind imploding on itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    This is true, that racial profiling harks back to an era of ignorance and intolerance but the problem is that is racial profiling innately bad if the end result is security?
    Sadly, we're talking not about our own security but the security of the rich and powerful. Who do you think have access and security passes to comfortable suites located in fortified underground bunkers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    If one racial profiles on the basis of racism then the criticism you present is warranted, but if one racially profiles out of nessecity is it innately bad?
    It's evil because the "authorities" who process these "solutions" know damn well the long-term cultural ramifications of xenophobia and paranoia; of turning race against race. Unfortunately, unlike "Old Europe", they are stupid and shallow enough not to think twice or care that it will be ordinary citizens everywhere (us and "the others") who will suffer the consequences of turning race against race. Once racial profiling is the norm, don't think it'll magically disappear soon after airports begin to relax.

    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    As the London bombings show the new crop of terrorists are homegrown and distinguished only by their race, their mannerisms, their accent, their dress is not unrepresentative of the general population of the nation they seek to attack.
    And what's next, after "racial" profiling? Intellectual profiling? Head-space profiling? Spiritual profiling? DNA profiling?

    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    Canada (under Trudeau the war measures act against the terrorist FLQ)
    Quebec has since been appeased, politically. Political discourse, compromise, solutions. Quebec now has control over its affairs, and its mainly franco-phone population have access to decent jobs and decision-making positions that were previously denied by an "authoritative" english population. They are now included members of a global-cultural community, and their language is no longer in peril. But of course, an Arab temperament is a lot more demanding...
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  7. #6  
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    What authorities? Isn't that precisely why most home-grown political activists turn to extremism, and then to terror-tactics, because there are no authorities that will give them the time of day to hear their grievances, to settle on compromise or solutions before the damage is done?

    No, the reason primarily why these home grown terrorists do this is because of these two reasons which I eludicated on in another forum:

    This is what I find distrubing about Muslims killing themselves, the why factor. Most people don't ask why these ppl are killing themselves, most of the reasons why is because they are living one of two lives:

    1) Poor, meaningless, distraught, oppressed, and largely undereducated people who look to the "afterlife" for a escape hatch from their horrid lives here.

    2) Middle Income or higher, lost, realtively well educated but unemployed or underempolyed, society has shunned them as a result, and people who have been born again Muslims. They also seek "paradise" to give them meaning in their lives.

    The first person is someone who is struggling to survive, who has seen their families and friends suffer under Illegal Israeli occupation for instance, and feeling that history is not on their side, if they don't act. These people are easily radicalized because they are largely uneducated in the finer points of life, and the only constant in their lives that has given them refuge from their surroundings has been Islam, and so they are very sympathetic to Islamic extremists.

    The Second person is harder to define, usually they are from oil rich countries (and now after the London Bombing, homegrown terrorists) who have extensive social safety nets which allows unemployed people to live good lives but generally unproductive and meaningless lives. They receive their education and generally find it hard to find work at home or even in the West. Thus they feel not only has their society alienated them, and just fed them because they were there, but the West has also alienated them for various reasons. These are the "consumerist terrorists" as I call them, because they have not suffered, they are taking teen angst to just another level.
    The Islamic community as a whole as part of western civilization has the imperative as citizens of a nation to protect the nation and to proactively scout for threats within their own communities. If the Muslim community does not work with the proper authorities, the "proper authorities" will take it upon themselves to infiltrate, and gradually degrade the rights of Muslims. The reason why these men do this is multifold, mostly imo material conditions, but also because of populist ranting of militant Imam's who cleaverly use the historical humiliation of the Muslim against the European as a rallying cry. What an Muslim auhtor (Meddeb) wrote about the mentality of Muslims is that of a boy not a man, someone is the eternal negativist from being a postivist of the past, and one consumed by resentiment (Nietzche) against the West. Terrorism exists when there is a inferiority, not only materially, but a psychological inferiority complex.

    Doesn't anyone recall during the UN debate, about going to war with Iraq, the French warning the American-British coalition that going into Iraq would open a Pandora's Box? I should think that the imperative lies squarely on the Americans to begin regulating themselves and stop dictating or imposing their demands on how third-world nations should govern themselves -- but in the end it's all about commerce, isn't it, the rich against the poor? And recessed further away into this crises lies something else: it's all about human nature. It is not Arabs against Americans, Muslims against Christians, or the rich against the poor; it's mankind imploding on itself.

    I was vehemently against the Iraq war, and I predicted along with most rational, smart people that it would indeed open a pandora's box of crap. But the terrorism we are dealing with has little to do with Iraq, of Afghanistan those just added fuel to the populist fire. The real reasons for the attacks has been American support for Tyrannical regimes like Saudi Arabia, and support for Israel. These two predicate the regions problems in the eyes of OBL and other Jihadi's and since they failed to depose these regimes in the 90's with violence, they now attack the US as it is the "head of the snake" so to say, OBL knows he cannot defeat the US, but he feels he can change American's minds on these critical issues to change US policy. The problem is that when you violently attack someone instead of changing their minds, they reinforce their alliances, because they feel that those alliances are now more important then ever. So OBL's plan has backfired.

    Sadly, we're talking not about our own security but the security of the rich and powerful. Who do you think have access and security passes to comfortable suites located in fortified underground bunkers?

    Relative to most people in the world aren't we "the rich and powerful"? We have in general a GDP per capita which is 42x that of Yemen, and we have the ability to choose our leaders in a democratic process (regardless if the differences btwn those leaders is minimal). The rich and powerful you speak of do not ride on subways, or fly on commericial jets we do. Who did the bombers attack?

    It's evil because the "authorities" who process these "solutions" know damn well the long-term cultural ramifications of xenophobia and paranoia; of turning race against race.

    Indeed, and those who attack us want to see the creation of a serious seperation like this as they feel it would only further their cause. So one could argue that initiating racial profiling will make us less safe, but problematically if racial profiling is done the chances of rhectoric turning into actual terror attacks would be greatly mitigated. I don't deny that terrorism will go on regardless of racial profiling but what has to take into consideration ways innocent lives can be saved.

    Unfortunately, unlike "Old Europe", they are stupid and shallow enough not to think twice or care that it will be ordinary citizens everywhere (us and "the others") who will suffer the consequences of turning race against race. Once racial profiling is the norm, don't think it'll magically disappear soon after airports begin to relax.

    "Old Europe" actually is informally already racial profiling, the state of Muslims in France for example are significantly worse then in the US or the UK for instance. Old Europe has done a worse job then "New Europe" in terms of Muslims and intergrating them into their societies. One of the problems in Europe is the lack of acceptance of those who aren't European as part of the society. It must be understood that the French and Germans have a strong sense of who they are, unlike the US who was created on the lack of coheseive culture. These Muslims throw the society out of wack and creates cultural problems for the nation as a whole. As we have seen in France with the relative success of LePen a right-wing Islamophobe Old Europe is not something to be admired.

    And what's next, after "racial" profiling? Intellectual profiling? Head-space profiling? Spiritual profiling? DNA profiling?

    That is a slippery slope argument, and its a logical fallacy.

    Quebec has since been appeased, politically. Political discourse, compromise, solutions. Quebec now has control over its affairs, and its mainly franco-phone population have access to decent jobs and decision-making positions that were previously denied by an "authoritative" english population. They are now included members of a global-cultural community, and their language is no longer in peril. But of course, an Arab temperament is a lot more demanding...

    That is the difference here, Quebecois gave up on violence and applied peaceful, democratic pressue to get their way. They created a party in the parliament which actually seeks to get an independant state. Muslims could do the same thing, by creating a Islamic party, it would never win but it would apply pressure on the govts in the West to recognize their plight and if they are big enough able to leverge some power over parties. That is one way to avoid racial profiling by taking part in the political process not alienating it.
    "A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy."

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  8. #7 Racial Profiling 
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    Racial profiling is a disadtrous thing if applied. It is happening all over the world, whether we deny it or not, white Vs Black,Arab Vs westren. It exists , we know that it does, although no one could say it out loud. Yet, it's not a solution neither will it save lives. Your problem doesn't lie in the muslim communities living abroad, these are the ones who are stable and are to be considered common citizens. Whatever radical movement, it isn't created by a stable society.
    There exists nothing called "violent" Islam. Islam has never been about being violent. The term "Islam" means surrenduring to God, after doing everything you're supposed to do. Islam encourages peace, and a war leader if asked by the other party to find a peaceful solution, by religion, he must obey.
    The point is, the bombings of any city as london or newyork or beirut or Cairo, is not responsible for it small radical groups, but some bigger pawns that don't show to society, and are well hidden.

    I think better than thinking about alienating a community, you should think of unifing all existing communities in a diverse society, this is your true power and strength. To apply the concept of freedom for all, and the acceptance of your differences.
    If you look at any successful scientific organisation in the US(i.e.NASA), you will find dozens of races working together towards a certain goal, this is the true success.

    The US could have avoided war on Iraq, if instead of a hostile stance, it took a more economic one. People need Food not War.
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  9. #8  
    Blah-blah blink. Ripley's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    Poor, meaningless, distraught, oppressed, and largely undereducated people who look to the "afterlife" for an escape hatch
    You mean like renting DVDs, gambling at Monte Carlo, endlessly snapping photos on a digital camera, logging in on an internet forum, going to a modern art's exhibit, throwing away left-overs, grabbing a double-chocolate latte while chatting on the cell, picking one's nose during a traffic jam while listening to their snazzy iPods? Wonder what people do when there's no money to do any of those. Pull their pants up?

    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    That is the difference here, Quebecois gave up on violence and applied peaceful, democratic pressue to get their way. They created a party in the parliament which actually seeks to get an independant state. Muslims could do the same...
    God, Undecided, don't be so damn naive. Quebecers worked with the system because there was a system in place in which to work with. They took advantage of that because there was a choice. As a typical representative of "reality", you exemplify the fantasy world you think the rest of the world functions by. Third-world nations who disagree with their pro-American governments hardly have the luxury of even putting a political platform together. Poverty is their straightjacket, their muzzle, worst, their ticket to oblivion by a snobby western mindset. As to the wealthy educated militant who happens to give a fuck about the balance of power, it's their egotistical glory to vengeance. That too is human nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by sina_marine
    If you look at any successful scientific organisation in the US (i.e., NASA), you will find dozens of races working together towards a certain goal, this is the true success.
    Those bloody scientists are a bunch of selfish pricks who imagine themselves above the universe; no wonder they work so beautifully together. But can they export their work-ethics to the rest of mankind? Hardly, for they too are held by the balls by a political and commercial elite holding the fancy glitz.
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  10. #9  
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    Undecided,

    Again, I think you are asking the wrong question. Profiling or no Profiling? That is not the question.

    The question, which I think you know, is whether or not those who think they know all the answers to life's myriad un-answered questions will ever go away. As long as any side thinks they have all the answers, and the only answers, then there will never be security, no matter what the currently powerful want to think. I mean, seriously, do you think that racial profiling is the right approach to take? You say it may be the lesser of two evils, for now, but is it the right way to think about the problem? Sounds like a short-term patch to me, one that will ultimately lead to worse problems. Is leading to worse problems, I think.

    The West's whole approach is wrong, imo. Like a bully on the playground. And until that bully gets stood up and knocked down, sadly, he will not realize that their is a serious flaw in his approach to life. Hopefully, you will see, that he is being stood up right now. Hopefully, though, he will recognize the error of his ways before he gets so beat down that any good in him is lost forever.
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  11. #10  
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    You mean like renting DVDs, gambling at Monte Carlo, endlessly snapping photos on a digital camera, logging in on an internet forum, going to a modern art's exhibit, throwing away left-overs, grabbing a double-chocolate latte while chatting on the cell, picking one's nose during a traffic jam while listening to their snazzy iPods? Wonder what people do when there's no money to do any of those. Pull their pants up?

    But most the problem is that most of the die hard core terrorists are not poor people, they are middle class, well educated people who are living lives of no purpose whether it be here in the West or in their country of origin. It is not concidence that most of the 9/11 hijackers were from Egypt and Saudi Arabia, especially S.A a society which is not poor, a society which gives the ppl the basic needs and more so and still you have a movement of terrorism there, materialism works both ways. Yes it is obvious that the poor would rebel but once you get the middle class and even upper classes rebelling you have a serious problem in your society. I know the problem is the fact that teh Saudi regime is what is known as a rentier state where oil wealth rents the royals legitimacy. I perfectly understand the shallowness and pointlessness of a consumerist society that the modern Americanized West exemplifies, and that is a serious criticism from our foes, Marx was right, and OBL is too in some respects.

    God, Undecided, don't be so damn naive.

    Plz refrain from using that language with me...

    Quebecers worked with the system because there was a system in place in which to work with.

    Now look at the context of this conversation, you are having your own conversation because its not with me you are talking to. The Muslims in the West have a system in place, they can legally create their own parties. I am in this thread primarily talking about homegrown terrorists, born and raised in Western countries. So no your analysis is incorrect.
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  12. #11  
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    The question, which I think you know, is whether or not those who think they know all the answers to life's myriad un-answered questions will ever go away.

    No they will not...ignorance can survive any bomb.

    As long as any side thinks they have all the answers, and the only answers, then there will never be security, no matter what the currently powerful want to think.

    To be fair though the powerful are those who manipulate these people and create these ppl. It was the US, along with the Saudi's and Pakistani's in the 80's who created this fundamentalist movenment with the Afghan affair. It was Israel who actually funded Hamas to oppose the P.A. the West (the powerful) has created this evil from its own short term goal of defeating the USSR, and now that movement which we fostered, and bred is now bitting us in the arse. The poor cannot do anything unless moved by a powerful force...Marx and Lenin suggest the same thing.

    I mean, seriously, do you think that racial profiling is the right approach to take?

    Ethically no...pragmatically maybe.

    You say it may be the lesser of two evils, for now, but is it the right way to think about the problem? Sounds like a short-term patch to me, one that will ultimately lead to worse problems. Is leading to worse problems, I think.

    I don't think a worse evil exists then killing innocent people...

    The West's whole approach is wrong, imo. Like a bully on the playground. And until that bully gets stood up and knocked down, sadly, he will not realize that their is a serious flaw in his approach to life. Hopefully, you will see, that he is being stood up right now. Hopefully, though, he will recognize the error of his ways before he gets so beat down that any good in him is lost forever

    Our way of life isn't being targeted by these ppl, its our policies in the region which are the problem.
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undecided
    Quote Originally Posted by Cottontop3000

    The West's whole approach is wrong, imo. Like a bully on the playground. And until that bully gets stood up and knocked down, sadly, he will not realize that their is a serious flaw in his approach to life. Hopefully, you will see, that he is being stood up right now. Hopefully, though, he will recognize the error of his ways before he gets so beat down that any good in him is lost forever.
    Our way of life isn't being targeted by these ppl, its our policies in the region which are the problem.
    I think we are basically in agreement again. Though I think it's aspects of our way of life that lead to our policies in these regions.
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  14. #13  
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    "A conservative government is an organized hypocrisy."

    -Benjamin Disraeli
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  15. #14  
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    Very nice. Exactly.
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