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Thread: Who are we?

  1. #1 Who are we? 
    Forum Junior SolomonGrundy's Avatar
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    The main question all ask is the main problem that keeps us going.
    What is your opinion about it?


    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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  3. #2  
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    Ernest Becker has woven a great tapestry, which represents his answer to the question ‘what are we humans doing, why are we doing it, and how can we do it better?’

    Becker has written four books “Beyond Alienation”, “Escape from Evil”, “Denial of Death”, and “The Birth and Death of Meaning”; all of which are essential components of his tapestry. Ernest Becker (1924-1974), a distinguished social theorist, popular teacher of anthropology and sociology psychology, won the Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction for the “Denial of Death”.

    Many weeks ago a forum member suggested that I might be interested in the author Ernest Becker and I was given the following web site.
    http://faculty.washington.edu/nelgee...lomonsound.htm This is a great one hour audio about Becker’s ideas given by a very good lecturer.

    Becker provides the reader with a broad and comprehensible synopsis of the accomplishments of the sciences of anthropology, psychology, sociology, and psychiatry. Knowledge of these accomplishments provides the modern reader with the means for the comprehension of why humans do as they do.

    Becker declares that these sciences prove that humans are not genetically driven to be the evil creatures that the reader of history might conclude them to be. We humans are victims of the societies that we create in our effort to flee the anxiety of death. We have created artificial meanings that were designed to hide our anxieties from our self; in this effort we have managed to create an evil far surpassing any that our natural animal nature could cause.

    Becker summarizes this synoptic journey of discovery with a suggested solution, which if we were to change the curriculums in our colleges and universities we could develop a citizenry with the necessary understanding to restructure our society in a manner less destructive and more in tune with our human nature.

    The only disagreement I have with Becker’s tapestry is in this solution he offers. I am convinced that he has failed to elaborate on an important step that is implied in his work but not given sufficient emphasis. That step is one wherein the general adult population takes up the responsibility that citizens of a democracy must take on; adults must develop a hobby “get a life—get an intellectual life”. In other words, it will be necessary that a significant share of the general population first comprehend these matters sufficiently to recognize the need for the proposed changes to our colleges and universities.


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  4. #3  
    Forum Junior SolomonGrundy's Avatar
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    In my opinion is a problem of pecetion.What if we are just a bundle of non living things.That makes us not alive ?
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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  5. #4  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coberst
    Becker provides the reader with a broad and comprehensible synopsis of the accomplishments of the sciences of anthropology, psychology, sociology, and psychiatry. Knowledge of these accomplishments provides the modern reader with the means for the comprehension of why humans do as they do.

    Becker declares that these sciences prove that humans are not genetically driven to be the evil creatures that the reader of history might conclude them to be. We humans are victims of the societies that we create in our effort to flee the anxiety of death. We have created artificial meanings that were designed to hide our anxieties from our self; in this effort we have managed to create an evil far surpassing any that our natural animal nature could cause.
    I notice that Becker died in 1974; I would think that since then, there have been many advances in all the sciences that Becker's works will obviously not take into account.

    In any case, I'd have to disagree with his idea as you've summarized it here. There is ample proof that many of the behavioral trends that have led to our "history of evil" are in fact rooted in our genes. Our dislike of "the other," our hierarchical nature, our competitiveness. We have used our great intelligence to serve the purposes given to us by our genetic nature. But I do agree with Becker's and your solution to creating a better civilization. We all must be educated on our own nature, and what we can do to improve ourselves.

    To Solomon - all life is made up of non-living components. What makes life so wonderful (in my own opinion, at least) is that it is far greater than the sum of its parts; if you took humans apart and just put our non-living parts into neat little piles, it's obviously not the same as assembling all those non-living parts in the specific patterns that lead to a functioning organism. It's really quite awe-inspiring, what billions of years of evolution have made.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  6. #5  
    Forum Junior SolomonGrundy's Avatar
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    Well yes we are more inside our minds then outside of them ,our exterior aspects defines us as persons, but is more then that.
    Some part of us is more then creation is more then spirit, is part of the guide we must fallow to be what we are ment to be...is there a way to change that in us?
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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  7. #6  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolomonGrundy
    Well yes we are more inside our minds then outside of them ,our exterior aspects defines us as persons, but is more then that.
    Some part of us is more then creation is more then spirit, is part of the guide we must fallow to be what we are ment to be...is there a way to change that in us?
    I'm not sure what you're trying to ask, Solomon. Are you saying that we have both a spirit, aka choice/free will, and some other inborn "rules" that dictate our behavior that we are not in control of? And if there is any way to get around those "rules?"
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  8. #7  
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    We must live to balance the world around us. That is who we are. We are not the rulers of this Earth and we must give what we take for our relatives.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Megabrain again attempts suicide....
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  10. #9  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    You know, megabrain, for a mod who enjoys trashing bad threads so much, you sure do add a lot of useless comments to discussions.

    Would you like to share with us what about this discussion makes you want to kill yourself? Maybe we could improve ourselves with your constructive criticism.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  11. #10  
    The Doctor Quantime's Avatar
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    I found this, or rather stumbled upon it and it is very interesting on how the world needs to live in balance with each other. It has changed me. It is from Native american Elders.

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=g7cylf...eature=related

    It is good to watch all 5 parts .

    EDIT: Not from the Elders, more their lesson to us.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  12. #11  
    Forum Junior SolomonGrundy's Avatar
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    Yes i am saying the rules are in us and those rules makes us going without afecting our free will .Those rules are our blueprint to act in the future so we act as is put in them but we are not those rules.We are more ..
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Megabrain again attempts suicide....
    I understand. The swillmer post previous to yours was a gag reflex inducer. Lets's take a look:

    We must live to balance the world around us. That is who we are. We are not the rulers of this Earth and we must give what we take for our relatives.
    Why doesn't sv just say what he means even though it's quite obvious. I hate to think that we are merely an idea. Who are the relatives anyway?

    Who are we? Why don't we try and find out instead of being satisfied with a load of bullshit.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolomonGrundy
    Yes i am saying the rules are in us and those rules makes us going without afecting our free will .Those rules are our blueprint to act in the future so we act as is put in them but we are not those rules.We are more ..
    I see. So you're asking the age-old question: are we simply acting-reacting to the world around us according to pre-set rules dictated by our genes, or do we have the choice to act against those rules?

    According to what I know about the state of cognitive and behavioral science, I would say yes, we humans can override our genetic presets - but, I think, only to a certain degree. There is still a lot of research that needs to be done in this field. There is a lot we still don't know. I think there are probably some "rules" that are so basic to the way we think that we'll never have complete control of them (outside of genetic/technological manipulation, of course). But there are other "rules" that are more like behavioral "suggestions," and these are things that we have more control over.

    I wonder Solomon - are you wondering "who are we?" as a species, or "who are we?" as individuals - as in, what part of each individual human makes them the unique person that they are?
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  15. #14  
    Forum Junior SolomonGrundy's Avatar
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    Ok so we are just tools for others to experiment in our lifetime that as humans on this planet.
    We are unios of wanting to be me, wanted to be powerfull, wanted to be big, parts that we contral and make them learn obey our will.
    We are part of the univers so we are restricted to the rules that keep us together.
    We are combinations of all those factors unified in one entity named in our days human .
    This Is just the first level of who we are.
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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  16. #15  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    Quote Originally Posted by Megabrain
    Megabrain again attempts suicide....
    I understand. The swillmer post previous to yours was a gag reflex inducer. Lets's take a look:

    We must live to balance the world around us. That is who we are. We are not the rulers of this Earth and we must give what we take for our relatives.
    Why doesn't sv just say what he means even though it's quite obvious. I hate to think that we are merely an idea. Who are the relatives anyway?

    Who are we? Why don't we try and find out instead of being satisfied with a load of bullshit.
    At least you explained what was inducing you to gag and gave svwillmer something solid to reply to. It's hard to respond to, "somebody said something that makes me want to DIE!" and nothing else.

    to svwillmer - I think who we are and what we ought to be doing are not necessarily the same thing. If it's something we should do, but don't necessarily do out of our own nature, then it's not really intrinsic to our being, is it?
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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  17. #16  
    Forum Junior SolomonGrundy's Avatar
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    paralith
    "who are we?" as a species, or "who are we?" as individuals
    Who are we as creatures and over the shell that is our body .
    Yes is true that we have to work to realise that we in fuct is just as little I.
    And I is the point of oringin for all.
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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  18. #17  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard paralith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolomonGrundy
    paralith
    "who are we?" as a species, or "who are we?" as individuals
    Who are we as creatures and over the shell that is our body .
    Yes is true that we have to work to realise that we in fuct is just as little I.
    And I is the point of oringin for all.
    so ... what part of us is separate from our bodies? Well, religious people will no doubt tell you differently, but in my opinion, there is no part of us separate from our bodies. They are not a shell, they are our being.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    The natives have gone with the philospihy they've said and have lived in harmony. We don't and we are dying. In English, we are the same as all on the Earth, our relatives are the birds and the trees. We hurt them, we hurt ourselves. Common sense. Who we are is the Earth. If you refer to an idea or a thought, a metaphorical concept it is not worldy. We are nature, that is who we are. We are all the same, maybe different in some ways, but we are the same.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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  20. #19  
    Forum Junior SolomonGrundy's Avatar
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    Religion of what?
    If you cut your leg you are not your leg!
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    The natives have gone with the philospihy they've said and have lived in harmony. We don't and we are dying. In English, we are the same as all on the Earth, our relatives are the birds and the trees. We hurt them, we hurt ourselves. Common sense. Who we are is the Earth. If you refer to an idea or a thought, a metaphorical concept it is not worldy. We are nature, that is who we are. We are all the same, maybe different in some ways, but we are the same.
    We are not Earth even we live on it we are not nature even we are part of it ...
    We only live once so is hard for us , we have to learn we have to do this we have to do that. and more then once in this life we have the need to exchange more to become others.
    We are not the kids that we once learn to read in school ...
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolomonGrundy
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    The natives have gone with the philospihy they've said and have lived in harmony. We don't and we are dying. In English, we are the same as all on the Earth, our relatives are the birds and the trees. We hurt them, we hurt ourselves. Common sense. Who we are is the Earth. If you refer to an idea or a thought, a metaphorical concept it is not worldy. We are nature, that is who we are. We are all the same, maybe different in some ways, but we are the same.
    We are not Earth even we live on it we are not nature even we are part of it ...
    We are, we come from the Earth and were made and are destroyed by her. We are related to all that is on the Earth. I don't understand what you mean. Are you religious?
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    SVWILLMER & SOLOMOMGRUNDY


    You two are nothing more than prolific posters of spam, neither of you appear to engage in constructive debate or return to defend what you write.

    Any more posts, in any section that I deem irrelevant I will delete.

    Science forum rules:

    4(e) Before replying, please ask yourself the following question: "Does my reply offer any significant advice or help contribute to the conversation in any fashion?" If not, do not post it as it will be considered spam.


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  24. #23  
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    svwillmer
    You have no saying in what this planet is because you are not the planet you are just a part of it and this is not about religionis about who we are.
    And i am saying we are more then just tools and parts of the universe!
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    I think who we are and what we ought to be doing are not necessarily the same thing. If it's something we should do, but don't necessarily do out of our own nature, then it's not really intrinsic to our being, is it?
    I agree

    One of the major sufferings of individuals is the divide between the ideal self and reality.

    We 'should be doing this' or 'that' and 'thinking this' and 'thinking that'

    One of the major contibutors to depression is having too high expectations of ourselves and trying to live up to this ideal and also funnily enough having too much choice!
    http://www.biopsychiatry.com/happiness/choice.html

    It's very easy to lose sight of yourself and become overwhelmed in what society also expects of you, especially when young.

    It's good to practice to try to identify all things you've been told to be and do from the things you have actually made your mind up about yourself. I think you will be very suprised at the lists you produce.

    Weed out all the crap and misinformation about who you are and what you should be thinking/doing/being that you've been fed from your parents/society/school/the media and formulate a philosophy for yourself about who you are and about life as early as you can. Be flexible and willing to change as you grow and learn.

    Base your own philosophy on experience and what works and what doesn't. Make sure you get any other information from reliable sources.

    Grow and expand and keep on learning.

    What else can we be and do?
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    To solomon:

    If you cut your leg, you feel it, because your leg is connected by your nervous system to your brain. I suppose I could amend my earlier statement by saying that, if nothing else, our consciousness is rooted in the physical structure of our brain. There is no part of any human that is not material. A religious person, of any faith (I think it's safe to say), will tell you that have a physical body and then you have a non-physical, kind of supernatural soul. But I do not agree.

    To svwillmer:

    Your ideas are no doubt pleasant ones, but they do not scan to reality. The Earth is not a conscious/living/animate entity that "makes" or "destroys" anything. We are only "made" from the earth in the sense that some of the atoms that make up our bodies were once in the ground, and all the atoms in ourselves and the earth were originally made in the sun (physics people, sorry if I butchered that explanation).

    Also, all life on this earth is related to each other. But you know enough of evolution that this distant similarity is not enough, in terms of kin-selection, to make a feeling of brotherhood with all other existing organisms adaptive. What is adaptive for humans is an instinct towards cooperation, that can be extended beyond simple cooperation with our fellow man but to ideas of cooperation with the world at large, and probably contributed to the birth of this Native American philosophy that you now espouse.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    What about if you did all that and all ended up bad for you then what?
    paralith
    My religion is true in my soul but my mind is where evolution drags me and i know that all of this is related to suffering and pain .
    I understand that we can be all we want to be but we lack not the morality but the inteligence an knolage...
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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    I agree paralith but the extent of actually 'who we are' in my reference to nature is that we are part of 'her'. So in effect we are nature. I wish to ask you solomongrundy in what type of existence do you mean by 'who we are'. Are we talking about in society? Evolutionary? Psychologically?

    We are more than tools yes, but we can make this world a better place knowing we have responsibilty to it. The more we take and the less we give puts us out of enviromental eqiulibrium, which is evident with the climate change situation we are facing currently.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I agree paralith but the extent of actually 'who we are' in my reference to nature is that we are part of 'her'. So in effect we are nature. I wish to ask you solomongrundy in what type of existence do you mean by 'who we are'. Are we talking about in society? Evolutionary? Psychologically?

    We are more than tools yes, but we can make this world a better place knowing we have responsibilty to it. The more we take and the less we give puts us out of enviromental eqiulibrium, which is evident with the climate change situation we are facing currently.
    Society? Evolutionary? Psychologically? yes all i have to know your opinion .
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolomonGrundy
    Quote Originally Posted by svwillmer
    I agree paralith but the extent of actually 'who we are' in my reference to nature is that we are part of 'her'. So in effect we are nature. I wish to ask you solomongrundy in what type of existence do you mean by 'who we are'. Are we talking about in society? Evolutionary? Psychologically?

    We are more than tools yes, but we can make this world a better place knowing we have responsibilty to it. The more we take and the less we give puts us out of enviromental eqiulibrium, which is evident with the climate change situation we are facing currently.
    Society? Evolutionary? Psychologically? yes all i have to know your opinion .
    Pardon? I don't understand you, sorry .
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolomonGrundy
    paralith
    My religion is true in my soul but my mind is where evolution drags me and i know that all of this is related to suffering and pain .
    I understand that we can be all we want to be but we lack not the morality but the inteligence an knolage...
    Well, I think morality can be informed by knowledge. When we have a better understanding of the genetic influences on our behavior, we can make better choices about what we should and should not do. I'm not sure what you mean by saying all of this relates to suffering and pain, though.

    And yes, svwillmer, we are most certainly products of nature. You can't argue with that.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    To solomon:

    If you cut your leg, you feel it, because your leg is connected by your nervous system to your brain. I suppose I could amend my earlier statement by saying that, if nothing else, our consciousness is rooted in the physical structure of our brain. There is no part of any human that is not material. A religious person, of any faith (I think it's safe to say), will tell you that have a physical body and then you have a non-physical, kind of supernatural soul. But I do not agree.

    To svwillmer:

    Your ideas are no doubt pleasant ones, but they do not scan to reality. The Earth is not a conscious/living/animate entity that "makes" or "destroys" anything. We are only "made" from the earth in the sense that some of the atoms that make up our bodies were once in the ground, and all the atoms in ourselves and the earth were originally made in the sun (physics people, sorry if I butchered that explanation).

    Also, all life on this earth is related to each other. But you know enough of evolution that this distant similarity is not enough, in terms of kin-selection, to make a feeling of brotherhood with all other existing organisms adaptive. What is adaptive for humans is an instinct towards cooperation, that can be extended beyond simple cooperation with our fellow man but to ideas of cooperation with the world at large, and probably contributed to the birth of this Native American philosophy that you now espouse.
    Paralith you will make a very good scientist. You have mastered the art of objectivity and rationality.

    Which is all very well from a biological point of view. But we are more than just a bundle of nerve endings. We have a consciousness connected to an imagination which explores much further than our own noses.

    Humans have since day one imagined an omniescence to life and the human soul beyond words or theories imagines in symbols and analogies. The idea that the earth as a 'mother' is ancient and serves as a symbol to connect us to our ancestry and give it due care and consideration.

    Humans personify, which is why we have images of God. This isn't reality in a scientific provable way, yet it is an interior reality in the mind and constructed for reasons in order to imagine a particular reality.

    To deny this side of human instinct is impossible.

    You will never ever make humans into a totally rational logical objective clinical species. That would be horrendous!

    As for being sure about our beliefs and 'hoping things won't go bad' well do you see also how bad religious belief has degenerated us and isolated us from our true natures? We have been led to believe for millenia that we can't be trusted. That we must have some guiding principle called God to show us the way. If we don't we will go wild, mad sinful and bad things will happen. So we must have faith in the instruction of this superior being.
    Bull Crap!
    We are not children. We have lost faith in ourselves and our ability to know instinctively what is right and wrong from these teachings.

    That is one thing i vow never to lose is faith in human nature.

    Trust your instincts. C'mon you know what is right and wrong. What feels good and bad, and yes sometimes you make mistakes. Sometimes you have to be something you are not in order to find out what you really are.

    We've all done things wrong and bad and felt bad about it, and so we vow not to do it again. And that's how you learn and grow.
    So pick yourself up and get on with it.
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    And if we as persons as products of nature are only animals at this stage?
    Are we just another life form on this planet or are we the ones that make the rules here?
    Are we contraled by the planet or do we control the planet ?
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolomonGrundy
    And if we as persons as products of nature are only animals at this stage?
    Are we just another life form on this planet or are we the ones that make the rules here?
    Are we contraled by the planet or do we control the planet ?
    The only thing we need to learn how to control is our selves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Paralith you will make a very good scientist. You have mastered the art of objectivity and rationality.

    Which is all very well from a biological point of view. But we are more than just a bundle of nerve endings. We have a consciousness connected to an imagination which explores much further than our own noses.

    Humans have since day one imagined an omniescence to life and the human soul beyond words or theories imagines in symbols and analogies. The idea that the earth as a 'mother' is ancient and serves as a symbol to connect us to our ancestry and give it due care and consideration.

    Humans personify, which is why we have images of God. This isn't reality in a scientific provable way, yet it is an interior reality in the mind and constructed for reasons in order to imagine a particular reality.

    To deny this side of human instinct is impossible.

    You will never ever make humans into a totally rational logical objective clinical species. That would be horrendous!
    I agree, that would be horrendous. I don't desire that all humans be nothing but rational and logical; without some serious meddling with our brains and/or genes, it isn't possible anyway.

    Nor am I denying a human instinct. It is our instinct to form a conceptual framework through which we understand the world around us - for a long time, humans did so by assigning a supernatural system of various gods and powers, that were similar to ourselves. This helped us make sense of the world. Science is a different framework, a different way of making sense of the world. But this framework is based on reality, or at least striving to understand it as best we can. I see no reason why we can't use a greater understanding of reality to help ourselves live better lives.

    Trust your instincts. C'mon you know what is right and wrong. What feels good and bad, and yes sometimes you make mistakes. Sometimes you have to be something you are not in order to find out what you really are. We've all done things wrong and bad and felt bad about it, and so we vow not to do it again. And that's how you learn and grow.
    So pick yourself up and get on with it.
    But where do your instincts come from? Where did these instinctual moral rules come from, why did they develop as they did? What caused us to evolve to "feel bad about" certain behaviors and not others? To simply "put faith" in human nature without understanding it is not unlike simply "putting faith" in a religious deity that it isn't possible to understand. Which you yourself clearly disagree with.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Quote Originally Posted by SolomonGrundy
    And if we as persons as products of nature are only animals at this stage?
    Are we just another life form on this planet or are we the ones that make the rules here?
    Are we contraled by the planet or do we control the planet ?
    The only thing we need to learn how to control is our selves.
    Some of us did that but what use it is if we act in the same way because we want to survive?
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolomonGrundy
    And if we as persons as products of nature are only animals at this stage?
    We are all animals, Solomon. You say "just animals" as though there's something wrong with that. There isn't. That's just reality.

    Are we just another life form on this planet or are we the ones that make the rules here?
    Are we contraled by the planet or do we control the planet ?
    For a long time, we have been at the mercy of our environment. As our technological capabilities increase, so does our degree of control increase. But as svwillmer and minxy allude to, we ought to be respectful of our fellow animals, of our fellow life forms on this planet, especially if we do one day actually control it.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Paralith you will make a very good scientist. You have mastered the art of objectivity and rationality.

    Which is all very well from a biological point of view. But we are more than just a bundle of nerve endings. We have a consciousness connected to an imagination which explores much further than our own noses.

    Humans have since day one imagined an omniescence to life and the human soul beyond words or theories imagines in symbols and analogies. The idea that the earth as a 'mother' is ancient and serves as a symbol to connect us to our ancestry and give it due care and consideration.

    Humans personify, which is why we have images of God. This isn't reality in a scientific provable way, yet it is an interior reality in the mind and constructed for reasons in order to imagine a particular reality.

    To deny this side of human instinct is impossible.

    You will never ever make humans into a totally rational logical objective clinical species. That would be horrendous!
    I agree, that would be horrendous. I don't desire that all humans be nothing but rational and logical; without some serious meddling with our brains and/or genes, it isn't possible anyway.

    Nor am I denying a human instinct. It is our instinct to form a conceptual framework through which we understand the world around us - for a long time, humans did so by assigning a supernatural system of various gods and powers, that were similar to ourselves. This helped us make sense of the world. Science is a different framework, a different way of making sense of the world. But this framework is based on reality, or at least striving to understand it as best we can. I see no reason why we can't use a greater understanding of reality to help ourselves live better lives.

    Trust your instincts. C'mon you know what is right and wrong. What feels good and bad, and yes sometimes you make mistakes. Sometimes you have to be something you are not in order to find out what you really are. We've all done things wrong and bad and felt bad about it, and so we vow not to do it again. And that's how you learn and grow.
    So pick yourself up and get on with it.
    But where do your instincts come from? Where did these instinctual moral rules come from, why did they develop as they did? What caused us to evolve to "feel bad about" certain behaviors and not others? To simply "put faith" in human nature without understanding it is not unlike simply "putting faith" in a religious deity that it isn't possible to understand. Which you yourself clearly disagree with.
    Probably many of our instincts come from a survival point of view and also that old nutshell 'treat others as you yourself wish to be treated' . This is the intention of wanting to live in a harmonious world.

    What do humans want from life? ask anyone, and they will probably say 'to be happy' what they mean is to see and feel less suffering and to live in harmony with other living things and their environment.

    If this is your fundamental philosophy then your instincts about your choices beliefs and decisions will naturally spring from this.

    What works and what doesn't to achieve this end.
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    How small we are then even as a group ,we are just one second of this plant lifeime we are not even like the dinosaurs and they have been more then 20 minutes here and they where animals too ...
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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    Paralith you said - 'To simply "put faith" in human nature without understanding it is not unlike simply "putting faith" in a religious deity that it isn't possible to understand. Which you yourself clearly disagree with.'

    I agree which is why it's imperitive to carefully consider what our intention is in life. To formulate a philosophy.

    I would much rather have faith in myself and rely on my own decisions than a religious authority who's intentions i'm not sure i could trust.

    I can trust myself 100% and well if i get things wrong, well there's only one person to blame.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolomonGrundy
    How small we are then even as a group ,we are just one second of this plant lifeime we are not even like the dinosaurs and they have been more then 20 minutes here and they where animals too ...
    I said we're all animals. I didn't say we're the same as all other animals. It is likely that we're the most intelligent animal ever to live on this planet. But, even for all that intelligence, unless we can find a way off this planet before the sun supernovas or some other cataclysmic natural disaster occurs, we will all go the way of the dinosaurs eventually.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Paralith you said - 'To simply "put faith" in human nature without understanding it is not unlike simply "putting faith" in a religious deity that it isn't possible to understand. Which you yourself clearly disagree with.'

    I agree which is why it's imperitive to carefully consider what our intention is in life. To formulate a philosophy.

    I would much rather have faith in myself and rely on my own decisions than a religious authority who's intentions i'm not sure i could trust.

    I can trust myself 100% and well if i get things wrong, well there's only one person to blame.
    I agree with you. But, I also think that part of formulating a philosophy in life is understanding yourself. Understanding what we want and why we want it. And science will help us understand a large part of who we are. Then, we can make our own decisions while being as fully informed about reality as possible. Until that point, of course, we must make do with what we have.

    I'm pretty sure that we're more or less in agreement on this subject, though. (Amazing, isn't it? :wink
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    hahaha
    Some just say to blow this rock up ...
    Why not ?is in our nature to distroy and kill ...
    5 bilion years from now is a long time before the sun will go supernova unless we will fix it in time ....
    and yes we will find a way out of this rock in the future , but then we will not be the same we will not be animals no more ...
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Paralith you said - 'To simply "put faith" in human nature without understanding it is not unlike simply "putting faith" in a religious deity that it isn't possible to understand. Which you yourself clearly disagree with.'

    I agree which is why it's imperitive to carefully consider what our intention is in life. To formulate a philosophy.

    I would much rather have faith in myself and rely on my own decisions than a religious authority who's intentions i'm not sure i could trust.

    I can trust myself 100% and well if i get things wrong, well there's only one person to blame.
    I agree with you. But, I also think that part of formulating a philosophy in life is understanding yourself. Understanding what we want and why we want it. And science will help us understand a large part of who we are. Then, we can make our own decisions while being as fully informed about reality as possible. Until that point, of course, we must make do with what we have.

    I'm pretty sure that we're more or less in agreement on this subject, though. (Amazing, isn't it? :wink
    As long as we agree that science can only answer a portion.......and the rest...well we have to make that up ourselves.

    It just seems to me that people are always looking for answers on the outside and just lately science seems to have become the modern equivalent of a god with all the answers. I think is a mistake.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    As long as we agree that science can only answer a portion.......and the rest...well we have to make that up ourselves.

    It just seems to me that people are always looking for answers on the outside and just lately science seems to have become the modern equivalent of a god with all the answers. I think is a mistake.
    Science doesn't give us all the answers. It informs so that we are in the best position to choose our own answers.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    As long as we agree that science can only answer a portion.......and the rest...well we have to make that up ourselves.

    It just seems to me that people are always looking for answers on the outside and just lately science seems to have become the modern equivalent of a god with all the answers. I think is a mistake.
    Science doesn't give us all the answers. It informs so that we are in the best position to choose our own answers.
    Well i'm sure we could argue about this until the end!

    It doesn't always inform us or put us in the best position.

    Science tends to rule out anything that can't be measured or duplicated, so it rules out rather alot of human nature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Well i'm sure we could argue about this until the end!

    It doesn't always inform us or put us in the best position.

    Science tends to rule out anything that can't be measured or duplicated, so it rules out rather alot of human nature.
    What do you mean, science "rules out" human nature? It says it's not possible? It says we should avoid it?

    A human is an organic, physical being. All that makes up our physical nature will, one day, be "measurable." It will be understandable. Unless of course you believe that humans also possess some kind of supernatural, immaterial spirit or soul. I'll leave it up to debate on whether or not this puts us in the "best" situation, as that is a value judgment that I'm sure many people might not agree on. But I personally like to be well informed.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    A human is an organic, physical being. All that makes up our physical nature will, one day, be "measurable." It will be understandable. Unless of course you believe that humans also possess some kind of supernatural, immaterial spirit or soul.
    Well, isn’t there another possibility? We can doubt that the ontology of consciousness, say, will ever be clear, without believing in any sort of supernatural mumbo jumbo. Your reductionist view presumes that measurement and understanding is the same thing, but this doesn’t seem to be true for emergent phenomena like self, or free will (if either one exists).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bunbury
    A human is an organic, physical being. All that makes up our physical nature will, one day, be "measurable." It will be understandable. Unless of course you believe that humans also possess some kind of supernatural, immaterial spirit or soul.
    Well, isn’t there another possibility? We can doubt that the ontology of consciousness, say, will ever be clear, without believing in any sort of supernatural mumbo jumbo. Your reductionist view presumes that measurement and understanding is the same thing, but this doesn’t seem to be true for emergent phenomena like self, or free will (if either one exists).
    I say "measurable" in quotes merely as a way to link to Minxy's reply; I do mean more along the lines of understanding, such as understanding the ontology of consciousness. And it is possible, I suppose, that it may be forever unknowable to us, but I personally doubt it. It may take a long time before science advances that far, but I think it ultimately will.
    Man can will nothing unless he has first understood that he must count on no one but himself; that he is alone, abandoned on earth in the midst of his infinite responsibilities, without help, with no other aim than the one he sets himself, with no other destiny than the one he forges for himself on this earth.
    ~Jean-Paul Sartre
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    We are dust in the sun
    We are sparkles everyone
    We are here to learn and to cry
    We will reach for the sky since it is not verry far
    And we will then become one
    After years of joy
    After maddnes and paly
    We will just read the lines from the start
    We will never be free
    That is how is ment to be
    And the life will go on verry far
    After billions of days
    After billions of ways
    We will sit and become what we are .



    We as in manny
    as in shep mentality ... but
    people are smart ,groups are stupid and by that meaning careless of themselves ...
    We have a soul we have a creator even if you like it or not the univers is our creator but this is about religion not what we are no?
    We are moralists we are criminals we are happy we are sad we are part of something big , we are explores doom to evolve in a jar of rules far from our understanding , or none of all those things is who we are ?
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralith
    I say "measurable" in quotes merely as a way to link to Minxy's reply; I do mean more along the lines of understanding, such as understanding the ontology of consciousness. And it is possible, I suppose, that it may be forever unknowable to us, but I personally doubt it. It may take a long time before science advances that far, but I think it ultimately will.
    I feel we may get to the point where we do understand the mechanics of it, and this will gradually become accepted as understanding the ontology of it, whereas in fact we won't - much as we use imaginary numbers without anyone actually being able to conceptualize such an entity as the square root of minus one.
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    Who are we?

    Sigh!

    Bloody fools that's what!

    I think humans could be regarded as some kind of freak of nature, a virus that's eating this beautiful planet.

    Still the planet will end up shrugging us off easily, like a dog will scratch off it's fleas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minxy
    Who are we?

    Sigh!

    Bloody fools that's what!

    I think humans could be regarded as some kind of freak of nature, a virus that's eating this beautiful planet.

    Still the planet will end up shrugging us off easily, like a dog will scratch off it's fleas.
    Well hmm ...
    We will adjust the planet as we are the planet as "Rudolf" sayed.
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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    There's a difference between who and what we are. What we are, are human beings, a result of millions of years of evolution. Who we are depends on personality (which genes are switched on/off etc), which makes us curious, ambitious, greedy, hateful, loving, careing, needy, etc, etc... Who we are is random, in other words...
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    Sounds fine ... evolution genom and all but what you see is not what you get!
    Solomon Grundy
    In 1944, this creature rose from the swamp, with tremendous strength and some dormant memories that for example allowed him to speak English, but not knowing what he was, and not remembering Cyrus Gold or his fate. Wandering throughout the swamp, he encountered two escaped criminals, killed them, and took their clothes. When they asked him his name, he simply muttered that he had been born on Monday. Reminded of an old nursery rhyme about a man born on Monday, the thugs named the creature "Solomon Grundy".
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