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Thread: The right to live?

  1. #1 The right to live? 
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    Do humans have the right to live?



    The question may seem absurd at first glance. But think. Who are humans to say that they have the *right* to live? Can humans ensure that supposed right and provide for it?

    If it is our *right* to live, whom are we to sue when this life is taken by a thunder or tsunami?


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  3. #2  
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    IMO, no "right," just might. (Pounce!)


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  4. #3 Re: The right to live? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by water
    Do humans have the right to live?



    The question may seem absurd at first glance. But think. Who are humans to say that they have the *right* to live? Can humans ensure that supposed right and provide for it?

    If it is our *right* to live, whom are we to sue when this life is taken by a thunder or tsunami?
    We could extend this to;
    what so terrible about death; and whats wrong with death anyway.

    If religious theres some form of afterlife, if atheist oblivion. In either case, whats so terrible. In fact the only case in which death could be percieved as terrible is a religiou sperson who does bad things and therefore beliefs they will suffer in hell after death.

    Where do our perceieved rights come from anyway? Do we simply give them to each other or do they inherently exist?
    Truth is not taught, only experienced.
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  5. #4  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    If we are born into this world then we have all the rights to try and survive in it while we are alive. To prevent that right would be a travesty of justice and life.
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  6. #5 Re: The right to live? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vashti's Daughter
    Where do our perceieved rights come from anyway? Do we simply give them to each other or do they inherently exist?
    Good question.
    I do not think that without an omnimax entity, any right or justice can exist.


    * * *


    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler
    If we are born into this world then we have all the rights to try and survive in it while we are alive. To prevent that right would be a travesty of justice and life.
    Who gives you those rights?

    Who sanctions their violation?

    Why would preventing that right be a "travesty of justice and life"?
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  7. #6 Re: The right to live? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by water
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler
    If we are born into this world then we have all the rights to try and survive in it while we are alive. To prevent that right would be a travesty of justice and life.
    Who gives you those rights?

    Who sanctions their violation?

    Why would preventing that right be a "travesty of justice and life"?
    Me

    Me

    It would only be a "travesty of justice and life" if YOU believe it would be. We decide what our rights are, as individuals, based on what God or no-God we believe in.
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    Who gives you those rights?

    You give yourself the right to survive by just being borm.



    Who sanctions their violation?

    No One



    Why would preventing that right be a "travesty of justice and life"?


    For humanity wouldn't be here if it were taken away.
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  9. #8 Re: The right to live? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cottontop3000
    Quote Originally Posted by water
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler
    If we are born into this world then we have all the rights to try and survive in it while we are alive. To prevent that right would be a travesty of justice and life.
    Who gives you those rights?

    Who sanctions their violation?

    Why would preventing that right be a "travesty of justice and life"?
    Me

    Me

    It would only be a "travesty of justice and life" if YOU believe it would be. We decide what our rights are, as individuals, based on what God or no-God we believe in.
    Examples:


    1. Someone murders you. You sanction your murder? How?


    2. A person might say "I decide it is my right to kill everyone I don't like." If someone prevents this person from killing everyone he dislikes, then this person's right to kill everyone he dislikes has been violated.
    How will this person sanction this violation of his rights, when he has been put to jail (for having killed a few whom he hasn't liked)?


    3. The police is violating the robber's right to rob by catching the robber and putting him to jail. How is this robber (whose rights have been violated) going to sanction this violation?


    4. A man attempts to rape a woman. The woman defends herself. She is thereby violating the rapist's right to rape her. He should sue, she should not have violated his right to rape her.


    Yes?
    Any rights that a person has are those he has given himself?
    And he is the one to sanction the violation of those rights?
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  10. #9  
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    Exactly. Life is not perfect, thanks to your God, according to you, and WE deal with it as best we can. THAT IS LIFE. Who grants you your rights water? Who makes your rules? Men and women who came before you, or you? Or your idea of God? God hasn't taught you a damned thing. You make your own decisions, and you live with them. God doesn't make your decisions for you.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler
    Who gives you those rights?

    You give yourself the right to survive by just being borm.
    How is this supposed to make any sense?


    Who sanctions their violation?

    No One
    Well, as far as I know, the jurisdicial systems in most countries are such that a murderer is prosecuted and sentenced, for example.


    Why would preventing that right be a "travesty of justice and life"?

    For humanity wouldn't be here if it were taken away.
    Really?
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cottontop3000
    Exactly. Life is not perfect, thanks to your God, according to you, and WE deal with it as best we can.
    ??
    "My God"? "According to me"?
    You make no sense.


    THAT IS LIFE. Who grants you your rights water?
    The one who can sanction their violation.


    Who makes your rules? Men and women who came before you, or you?
    If you think any person is so completely unique, so unique that they make up their own beliefs -- then think again.
    You did not invent language.


    Or your idea of God? God hasn't taught you a damned thing.
    This is impossible to prove.


    God doesn't make your decisions for you.
    ? What is the point of saying that? What decisions would God make about me?
    (Other than giving me life and taking it away from me.)
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  13. #12  
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    Quote Originally Posted by water
    Quote Originally Posted by Cottontop3000
    Exactly. Life is not perfect, thanks to your God, according to you, and WE deal with it as best we can.
    ??
    "My God"? "According to me"?
    You make no sense.
    You're God made us. In His image. He allowed us to be tempted. We were. We either were or weren't really made in God's image. Either way, God is responsible for ALL the pain and suffering in this world. He is not there, because you're God, the God that only emanates love, would not allow this, IMO. Therefore, no God. Therefore, WE deal with life as best we can, whether I'm wrong or not.

    CT3000: THAT IS LIFE. Who grants you your rights water?
    Water: The one who can sanction their violation.
    Who is that, water? Tell me here and now. Stop beating around the bush and tell me.

    CT3000: Who makes your rules? Men and women who came before you, or you?
    Water: If you think any person is so completely unique, so unique that they make up their own beliefs -- then think again.
    You did not invent language.
    Who gives a shit? You have no argument. God, I'm testy today. (Kind of sorry.) Answer my questions, or are you just floundering here. Tired? Got a headache?

    CT3000: Or your idea of God? God hasn't taught you a damned thing.
    Water: This is impossible to prove.
    What's your point, that because it is impossible to prove, it is right and mandatory for all to have faith that He did teach you something, another assertion that is unprovable?


    CT3000: God doesn't make your decisions for you.
    Water: ? What is the point of saying that? What decisions would God make about me?
    (Other than giving me life and taking it away from me.)
    Not "about you," but "for" you. Who makes your decisions water, you or God, or both? Also, prove to me that "God" gave you life and can take it away from you. You can't, I would guess, so that leaves you with only faith, which is based on what previous men and women have told you and what you have experienced in your life (conditioned as you are to think there may actually be a God). I don't know if there is or is not a God for sure, but if there is, I've got issues with Him, and I am not going to live a God-centered life any longer because imo it only leads to confusion, self-doubt, anger, depression and death.
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  14. #13  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cottontop3000
    You're God made us. In His image.
    Do you even know who "my God" is?
    Or do you just assume?


    Either way, God is responsible for ALL the pain and suffering in this world. He is not there, because you're God, the God that only emanates love, would not allow this, IMO. Therefore, no God. Therefore, WE deal with life as best we can,
    God is responsible, but there is no God.
    You are only saiying then that you can identify noone who would be responsible for the present situation. How about humans?


    whether I'm wrong or not.
    Oh. Inspite any argument otherwise, you will insist on what you believe, no matter what.


    CT3000: THAT IS LIFE. Who grants you your rights water?
    Water: The one who can sanction their violation.
    Who is that, water? Tell me here and now. Stop beating around the bush and tell me.
    Depending on the particular right.
    According to state law, I have the right to my possessions, for example. The state grants me those rights. It is then the state with its institutions that sanctions violations of my possessions.

    My right to live? Theoretically, the state sanctions my murder, but I don't think I have anything from that.


    CT3000: Who makes your rules? Men and women who came before you, or you?
    Water: If you think any person is so completely unique, so unique that they make up their own beliefs -- then think again.
    You did not invent language.
    Who gives a shit? You have no argument. God, I'm testy today. (Kind of sorry.) Answer my questions, or are you just floundering here. Tired? Got a headache?
    My point is that an individual peson does not invent their own beliefs from scratch. There is almost always someone who has already held those same beliefs.


    CT3000: Or your idea of God? God hasn't taught you a damned thing.
    Water: This is impossible to prove.
    What's your point, that because it is impossible to prove, it is right and mandatory for all to have faith that He did teach you something, another assertion that is unprovable?
    No, I am not saying that. This is your conclusion. I am saying that you have asserted something that supposes the proving of a negative.


    CT3000: God doesn't make your decisions for you.
    Water: ? What is the point of saying that? What decisions would God make about me?
    (Other than giving me life and taking it away from me.)
    Not "about you," but "for" you. Who makes your decisions water, you or God, or both?
    Both.


    Also, prove to me that "God" gave you life and can take it away from you.
    This is inferred. But I have not given myself my life, neither have I invented myself. Many can take my life, God being one of them.


    You can't, I would guess, so that leaves you with only faith, which is based on what previous men and women have told you and what you have experienced in your life (conditioned as you are to think there may actually be a God). I don't know if there is or is not a God for sure, but if there is, I've got issues with Him, and I am not going to live a God-centered life any longer because imo it only leads to confusion, self-doubt, anger, depression and death.
    In *your* opinion, yes.
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  15. #14  
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    Water,

    I am really getting tired of you, and I wish you would be a little more honest about what you believe. All you are doing here, and in most other threads that I debate you, is countering everything any of us say with drivel and philosophical crap. What do you believe? It would help all of us, including yourself, if you would take a chance for once and go out on a limb.
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  16. #15  
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    Do humans have the right to live?

    Not according to gods - one must give up their right to live in favor of fear and worship.

    Who are humans to say that they have the *right* to live?

    Millions of years of evolution and the will to survive give us that right.

    Can humans ensure that supposed right and provide for it?

    We can't ensure it completely, but we make the attempt to ensure and provide for it through evolution.

    If it is our *right* to live, whom are we to sue when this life is taken by a thunder or tsunami?

    No one. Our existence is governed by evolution, living and dying are all part of that on-going process, whether by natural causes or accidental.
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  17. #16 do humans have a right to live 
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    If it is our *right* to live, whom are we to sue when this life is taken by a thunder or tsunami?
    The odd thing about being alive is that some are more alive than others.

    Some require more space than others, more remoteness, more consideration, more privacy.

    Some are more life.

    The boundaries of ones world can very easily extend beyond the commonwealth of modern civilisation, into outer space, the outer limits, beyond otherness, into other timeframes.

    Such individuals are so full of life that the idea of “rights to life” is a farce — both to them and the cosmos that harbours their being because their beings blend perfectly into every aspect of life, to life, in and around.

    If, at that level, there is any question, it is this: “Does mankind have ‘rights’?”

    However, man’s limited and proud little world is full of territorial rights — mustn’t feel ‘advantaged’, must we? Unless you’re employed to ‘lend’ your advantage for the purpose of a “greater good”, you’ll be expected to protect that advantage as a bloody right. Now, that’s a farce.
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  18. #17  
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    Do humans have the right to live?
    Only if other humans say they do and confer that right on you. Otherwise all you have is the right to be birthed in a field and immediately eaten by a large, hungry predator with a new litter to be fed. The end.

    Rights are a human invention. What is the point of all this anyway?
    Huh?
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by superluminal
    What is the point of all this anyway?
    Isn't it obvious? She's probably having an off-line debate with someone else.
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    life is not a right, it's just something that happens.
    everyone here was brought into this world whether they like it or not and everyone here is going to Die some day whether they like it or not.

    basically we have a case of a religious person looking for some higher being to do the work for them. well here's some news on life if you don't want to be Raped then protect your own Ass and stop them. whether you succed or not is entirely another matter. but basically life doesn't have to be justified or sanctioned because whatever happens is not entirely up to us.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallaby
    basically we have a case of a religious person looking for some higher being to do the work for them. well here's some news on life if you don't want to be Raped then protect your own Ass and stop them. whether you succed or not is entirely another matter. but basically life doesn't have to be justified or sanctioned because whatever happens is not entirely up to us.
    How does one protect yourself from greedy companies that rape everyone with higher costs for goods that should actually cost allot less? In todays world the companies boost their prices as high, like ENRON, as they want to gain as much as their greedy little minds can figure out how to get it all being perfectly legal.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler
    Quote Originally Posted by wallaby
    basically we have a case of a religious person looking for some higher being to do the work for them. well here's some news on life if you don't want to be Raped then protect your own Ass and stop them. whether you succed or not is entirely another matter. but basically life doesn't have to be justified or sanctioned because whatever happens is not entirely up to us.
    How does one protect yourself from greedy companies that rape everyone with higher costs for goods that should actually cost allot less? In todays world the companies boost their prices as high, like ENRON, as they want to gain as much as their greedy little minds can figure out how to get it all being perfectly legal.
    cosmic,

    As an individual, you don't. And it does indeed suck monkey ass. The only thing one can do is become an insider in the political arena and try to influence these things. The higher up you can get (without being corrupted) the more influence you get.
    Huh?
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  23. #22  
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    Cottontop3000,


    I am really getting tired of you, and I wish you would be a little more honest about what you believe. All you are doing here, and in most other threads that I debate you, is countering everything any of us say with drivel and philosophical crap.
    Whose problem is that? Or is it that what I say is either uncomfortable for you, or you don't udnerstand it, or both?


    What do you believe? It would help all of us, including yourself, if you would take a chance for once and go out on a limb.
    Be more specific.


    * * *

    (Q),



    Not according to gods - one must give up their right to live in favor of fear and worship.
    What gods? Name them.


    Who are humans to say that they have the *right* to live?
    Millions of years of evolution and the will to survive give us that right.
    How? Where is it written?


    If it is our *right* to live, whom are we to sue when this life is taken by a thunder or tsunami?
    No one. Our existence is governed by evolution, living and dying are all part of that on-going process, whether by natural causes or accidental.
    But then our right -- "Millions of years of evolution and the will to survive give us that right." -- is not complete!
    It is evolution who gives us that right, and also violates it at will?


    * * *

    superluminal,


    Do humans have the right to live?
    Only if other humans say they do and confer that right on you.
    So human rights depend on humans.


    Rights are a human invention. What is the point of all this anyway?
    It is farcical to say that humans have the "right to live" and that this right is conferred to humans by other humans. This "right" can be violated in ways that the right-conferrer cannot sanction, and thus, we are not in fact speaking about a *right*, but about a *privilege*.


    * * *


    ad . hoc,


    Isn't it obvious? She's probably having an off-line debate with someone else.
    No, I am wondering about the whole picture of how humans justify their actions, and justice.


    * * *


    wallaby,


    but basically life doesn't have to be justified or sanctioned because whatever happens is not entirely up to us.
    Up to whom or what is it then?


    * * *


    cosmictraveler,


    How does one protect yourself from greedy companies that rape everyone with higher costs for goods that should actually cost allot less? In todays world the companies boost their prices as high, like ENRON, as they want to gain as much as their greedy little minds can figure out how to get it all being perfectly legal.
    Do not complain about such things if what you believe is this:


    Who gives you those rights?

    You give yourself the right to survive by just being borm.



    Who sanctions their violation?

    No One

    Translate to ENRON's case:

    Who gives ENRON those rights?

    ENRON gives itself the right to survive by just beginning its business.


    Who sanctions their violation?

    No One

    If you think that you give yourself the right to live just by being born, then anyone, any physical or legal person can think THIS SAME way.
    It is just that when one man is trying to survive, this isn't much in the grand scheme of things, but when one company is trying to survive this becomes noticable to many people.


    * * *

    superluminal,



    As an individual, you don't. And it does indeed suck monkey ass. The only thing one can do is become an insider in the political arena and try to influence these things. The higher up you can get (without being corrupted) the more influence you get.
    When the elections come, vote for a candidate that will support what you think is right.
    Or become such a candidate yourself.
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by water
    Cottontop3000,


    I am really getting tired of you, and I wish you would be a little more honest about what you believe. All you are doing here, and in most other threads that I debate you, is countering everything any of us say with drivel and philosophical crap.
    Whose problem is that? Or is it that what I say is either uncomfortable for you, or you don't udnerstand it, or both?
    You're so smart water. I think I will worship you.


    What do you believe? It would help all of us, including yourself, if you would take a chance for once and go out on a limb.
    Be more specific.
    Stop trying to be so intellectual and be a little more down to earth and human. Take off one hat for a while, and put another on. I don't really care, I guess, I just think you are going in circles, for the sake of going in circles.
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  25. #24  
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    What gods? Name them.

    Take your pick.

    How? Where is it written?

    Evolution. NOT in the bible, so you most likely would never read it.

    It is evolution who gives us that right, and also violates it at will?

    Evolution cannot violate itself as it is an ongoing process that is devoid of the ethics we place on living and dying.
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    water. Do you do not know the definition of a right?

    The rights that are considered by most societies to belong automatically to all people, including the rights to justice, freedom, and equality.
    Those rights that humans have by virtue of their humanity and not by any merit of their own. In Christianity these rights emerge from the fact that God created humanity and loves humanity
    Human rights are an invention. Not a fundamental property of life or the universe in general.

    What exactly are you arguing? I agree strongly with Cottontop3000. Halfway through a discussion you begin go in circles and I lose track of just what you are arguing. Maybe if you take the salient point from a response and focus on it instead of trying to address every sentence the poster wrote (with your own simple sentence) this might go smoother.
    Huh?
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  27. #26  
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    Quote Originally Posted by superluminal
    Human rights are an invention. Not a fundamental property of life or the universe in general.
    I disagree. Modern civilisation has a legal monopoly of ownership or management for practically every conceivable facet in human existence, including territorial, foodstuff, transportation, intellectual, and even conduct. If one opts to exit society, one would be hard pressed not to trespass on society's "property" without having to pay them some form of dues. In other words, humanity seeks to govern life by owning it entirely. Sounds rather devilishly morbid, but not far from the truth. So if humanity were gods, I suppose they would attempt to own the rights to the galaxy.

    I suppose in a way we have rights -- and we also have none.
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    ad.hoc,

    I disagree
    Ummm... you just agreed with me. :?
    Huh?
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by superluminal
    ad.hoc,

    I disagree
    Ummm... you just agreed with me. :?
    You said that human rights are an invention. Agreed. But you also said "not as a fundamental property of life."

    As far as I understand it, life on Earth doesn't extend beyond the planet surface, hence "human rights", although an invention, still rules as "universal rights" -- holding, that is, as far as modern man is concerned, as a fundamental property of life. And that's what I explained: "In other words, humanity seeks to govern life by owning it entirely." Or, rather, by seeking to control the rights to life. If modern man does it here on Earth, surely, if given a chance, he would seek the same for the cosmos, no?
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    ad.hoc,

    That's fine. I define a "fundamental property" as something that exists independent of an intellectual invention of humans (or any conceptual entity). Such as the charge on an electron is a "fundamental property" or the constant of universal gravitation is a "fundamental property". The "right to live" is not a fundamental property but is "fundamental" in the context of humanity. I think I understand what you are saying. Yes?
    Huh?
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by superluminal
    The "right to live" is not a fundamental property but is "fundamental" in the context of humanity.
    It's fundamental in that there's no patent to life itself, although the rights to life and what pertains to it is certainly being encroached upon and challenged by humans -- pro-life, pro-choice, endangered species, Kyoto Treaty, Japan's whaling for "scientific research", Janet Jackson's breasts, etc. At a certain point in the process of life, "fundamentals" are no longer recognised.
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    Cottontop,


    Stop trying to be so intellectual and be a little more down to earth and human. Take off one hat for a while, and put another on. I don't really care, I guess,
    Well, which is it then? You either care or you don't. Make up your mind.


    I just think you are going in circles, for the sake of going in circles.
    I address only what people say. But for you, instead of addressing the topic in question, your topic here is me. If I wish to moderate the thread I have started, moderate it at least a bit, then I have to address you as well, since you post off-topic.
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  33. #32  
    Forum Professor wallaby's Avatar
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    How does one protect yourself from greedy companies that rape everyone with higher costs for goods that should actually cost allot less? In todays world the companies boost their prices as high, like ENRON, as they want to gain as much as their greedy little minds can figure out how to get it all being perfectly legal.
    most companies try to push down costs so that they can attract more buyers, only when one company dominates the market does one find prices going up.

    if you find a problem with companies trying to Rape you than go buy a product from a company that isn't.
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  34. #33  
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  35. #34  
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    Whatever. I cannpt believe this silly thread has gone on as long as it has. There are no such things as rights. So called rights are nothing but man made legal stipulations. End of story.
    "Wherever you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Bonzai
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  36. #35  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Rights are an attempt to codify the complex cultural expression of inherent drives. As such many, but but not all, of the above posts seem tangential to the point of irrelevance.
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  37. #36 Re: The right to live? 
    Forum Sophomore wretched's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by water
    Do humans have the right to live?


    Sure, just as we have the right to die.
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  38. #37  
    Forum Junior Cottontop3000's Avatar
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    Wretched, your avatar is just wretchedly magnificent. I wish that was who I was actually talking to though.
    Death Beckons
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  39. #38 Re: The right to live? 
    Forum Professor wallaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by water
    Do humans have the right to live?
    yes we have the right to participate in the game that is life.

    life has its ups and downs, sometimes you win and sometimes you die, just depends on the moves you make and how you play. other times matters are just out of your hands so you do your best to survive.

    the Ultimate Game,
    Have Fun.
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  40. #39  
    Forum Sophomore susan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cottontop3000
    Wretched, your avatar is just wretchedly magnificent. I wish that was who I was actually talking to though.
    I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.
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  41. #40  
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    You are wrong. You are not what you're avatar represents. Sorry.
    Death Beckons
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  42. #41  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Do humans have the right to live?
    Yes, just as they have a right to die also.
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  43. #42  
    Forum Junior Cottontop3000's Avatar
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    Who did you get that from, little ct?
    Death Beckons
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  44. #43  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Who did you get that from, little ct?
    Actually there was a post above mine somewhere that said basically the same thing.
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  45. #44 RIGHT TO LIFE 
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
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    Some have made this a religious issue by bringing in "God". They should take up the Christian clubs and leave the science to others.

    There is no "right to life." The granting of "rights" infers a grantor. Those in the US Constitution were credited to "God."

    However, it is the duty of society to help protect the individual from being killed by others or natural disasters. Since society is merely people bonded together by a single world view and way of thinking or "religion," the ability of society to protect the individual depends upon everyone cooperating to achieve common social goals. We call that "cooperating" the "moral system." It is the foundation of the society's legal system. A society's moral system is the means by which it achieves cooperation and hence achieves common goals---the means to the ends, in other words.
    The moral system and the legal machinery based upon it is what is used to protect the life of the individual.

    However, there is no "right to life" because we all have to die. It is only a matter of when. In the case of unwanted fetuses, the sooner the better.

    charles
    http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
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  46. #45 Re: The right to live? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by water
    Do humans have the right to live?



    The question may seem absurd at first glance. But think. Who are humans to say that they have the *right* to live? Can humans ensure that supposed right and provide for it?

    If it is our *right* to live, whom are we to sue when this life is taken by a thunder or tsunami?
    Hi there,

    I wonder why you would ask this question, youre here are'nt you?
    Nature takes you're life, if it were so. And that is a fact. Or maybe a mad scientist with a gigantic stormmaker. Try fighting a Lion. Who has the right to live?
    I'd rather ask WHY AM I HERE?
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  47. #46  
    Forum Professor wallaby's Avatar
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    Did we have the right to be born in the first place?
    was there even a being for these rights to be given to?
    if not then doesn't birth, death and life just become an event or sequence of events and nothing more?
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  48. #47  
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    for having the right to live must also have the right to die.
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