Notices
Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Were we better off in a state of nature?

  1. #1 Were we better off in a state of nature? 
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    924
    Were we better off in a state of nature?

    How credible was the concept of the Noble Savage?

    The thing is that society is constantly changing. How can we create a stable society within such a dynamic world culture? We need an ideal as a North Star. An ideal does not depend upon what is or what was but upon what we want or what we need—hopefully that are similar.

    I think that Socrates may very well be the first person to recognize what we need. Socrates recognized that the basic need was for wo/men to awaken their critical faculties. Socrates was perhaps the first to recognize that humans are too easily delighted by the praise of their fellows and that this sought after social recognition prevented their free and enlighten action. Humans need to share in a shared social fiction. The anxiety of self-discovery is a constant source of internal conflict for humans.

    It appears that human play forms “may even outwit human adaptation itself”. The created fiction becomes more real than reality itself. New humans enter this world and immediately begin the process of survival which becomes “a struggle with the ideas one has inherited”. This fiction reality destroys our rational adaptive process which can react to the real world; we are too busy reacting to our fictional play.

    Is it appropriate to say that the Amish might be considered to be the modern Noble Savage?

    Is it possible that we could study the Amish as a means for creating a better society?


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2 Re: Were we better off in a state of nature? 
    Forum Junior Kolt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    California
    Posts
    246
    Give me an example of this Fictional Reality


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3 Re: Were we better off in a state of nature? 
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    924
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolt
    Give me an example of this Fictional Reality
    The nation, religion, flag, capitalism, etc.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Junior Kolt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    California
    Posts
    246
    Alright. Now give me an example of Non-fictional Reality
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    924
    Quote Originally Posted by Kolt
    Alright. Now give me an example of Non-fictional Reality
    Apples, pears, me, you, my car, your car, etc.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    924
    Bill Moyer has a video wherein he discusses the book “Amish Grace” that you might find to be very interesting regarding the Amish response to their tragedy. Compare that Amish response to their tragedy and the response of America to our 9/11 tragedy.

    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch4.html
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    "Jamerica"...When in America, Florida; when in Jamaica, St. Mary
    Posts
    969
    So Non-fictional reality vs fictional reality is basically entities vs concepts?
    Whence comes this logic: no evidence = false?

    http://www.atheistthinktank.net/thinktank/index.php

    Theists welcome.
    ___________
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    924
    If we were to face up to the reality of what we humans have created we would be facing up to the reality that we have created a society that has set itself on a course of self destruction. We are consuming and polluting the earth and we seemed destined to kill our self in the process through our propensity to war combined with our technical ability to create ever better means for killing. We have the rational ability to stop this mad pursuit but we are too cowardly to recognize and modify what we are doing. We thwart our rational ability to adapt and change.

    I suspect that if we were to examine the Amish way we might find something there that will help us in our problem. They must have great courage to act as they do when under the same pressure to seek to destroy our enemies.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Junior Kolt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    California
    Posts
    246
    Quote Originally Posted by coberst
    If we were to face up to the reality of what we humans have created we would be facing up to the reality that we have created a society that has set itself on a course of self destruction. We are consuming and polluting the earth and we seemed destined to kill our self in the process through our propensity to war combined with our technical ability to create ever better means for killing. We have the rational ability to stop this mad pursuit but we are too cowardly to recognize and modify what we are doing. We thwart our rational ability to adapt and change.

    I suspect that if we were to examine the Amish way we might find something there that will help us in our problem. They must have great courage to act as they do when under the same pressure to seek to destroy our enemies.

    1. Society does not work. In compliance for something to work it must first be designed and all designs are inherent with a sense of purpose. Society has no purpose, there is no objective. No one individual crafted it as a means to an end. Society is simply an emergence of order out of chaos. And by order I am not referring to some grand scheme or command but order in the simplest of terms: The disposition of things following one after another, as in space or time; succession or sequence. Society is a force of nature not creation. Natural forces do not yield to the whims of any one individual.

    2. You speak of war murder and overall destruction from one human being to another as if it is something new. As if it was a product of the industrial revolution. Let me explain something to you very clearly and I want you to pay close attention because the fallowing words are truth incarnate. Things that live - fight. The reasons for which are interchangeable. Man has been dealing death ever since he first learned there was such a thing. The Noble Savage? Nobility is a product of human nature not technology or lack of. As is greed, corruption, hatred and bigotry. Human beings were just as petty and vile three thousand years ago as they are today. Has technology improved our means for conducting war and destruction? Yes. But it has also improved our means for medicine science and discovery. Yesterday we were burning witches, today we interrogate Muslims. It’s different....but it’s the same.

    3. We need an ideal as a North Star. Who's we? Ideology belongs to the individual. The thing that separates the mob from the masses is that one is forced under a rule of idealism where as the other is not. Yes, the Amish live under a strict set of ideals but that is why there are so few of them. They are an island onto themselves not despite of the outside world - but because of it. Our secular way of life is what gives them a reference point for which they conceive as a barrier. Our existence is what gives them perspective and in doing so gives them a choice not to bend or expand their ideals, customs and traditions. Yet ask yourself, if the rest of the world did not exist then how long do you think the Amish would remain Amish? If this world were only occupied by Buddhist monks then how long do you think their Zen way of life would last? After all, is this not how mankind actually began in the first place? Simple folk living a life of farming and herding in small communities while adhering to a basic harmonious way of life. And as the greater society, how long did that last? More importantly, just how much more happy were these people than the people who live today. There are those who have always had a romantic view of the noble savage or the hard working rural men. Romantic, however, is the best way to describe it. It’s all myth. Any one person may gain a greater more peaceful sense of being by living a monk/tribal/farmer-like way of life but the moment you try to impose this onto the vast sums of people there will always be an eventual breakdown of the ideology. This is because Society does not work.

    4. We thwart our rational ability to adapt and change. Why do you think so many wars are both caused and fought in the first place? Conflicts do not arise because everyone remains the same.

    5. I find it interesting that you think capitalism is fictional where as your car is real. Do you really need your car? Why? So you can get to work on time? Why do you need to work? To earn money? - In my opinion, something is real not so much due to its physical properties but more due to whether or not it has a residual effect on my very being. Neither fear nor love are things that I can see or touch. Doesn't mean they are not real. You may not think capitalism is that important but I do. Not because I think it is somehow more noble or righteous than any other 'ism but because I see it as the great equalizer to all of human nature. Ideas come and go but individualism, the drive for one to turn profit, is as old as the need to breathe air. At least with money you always know the true intentions of others, you always know where everyone stands. Idealism is where things get complicated. It causes some to extend their hand in compassion by helping those who are less fortunate and it causes others to exterminate Jews or fly jumbo jets into skyscrapers.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    924
    Kolt

    Society is not a product of nature like a rose bud. Society is a human costruct. Humans create abstract ideas that are valued. We live most of our life in adherence to the values that we create in our abstract.

    All animals, except humans, live in a total state of nature. All animals, except humans, are guided totally by instinct. Civilization is a mark of this transition from instinct to ego domination of behavior.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •