Notices
Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Is freedom a possibility?

  1. #1 Is freedom a possibility? 
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    924
    Is freedom a possibility?

    All thought is 95% (accuracy +/- 3%) unconscious thought.

    The mind is embodied.

    The ego says, Halt, Hold it.

    The container is one of the primary schemas in which we think.

    If you put it all together its spells:
    • Human ideas are conditioned by deep psychological and social forces.
    • We can operate freely but our horizons are limited.
    • To facilitate free action we must recognize these horizons and these forces.
    • Our horizons are determined by the historical reality into which we are born.
    • Knowledge of our horizons and forces marks a beginning of free action and an ideal marks the telos of our action.
    • Democracy is a suitable ideal as our telos.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2 Re: Is freedom a possibility? 
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,822
    Quote Originally Posted by coberst
    • Democracy is a suitable ideal as our telos.
    Why do you think that? Is this just your opinion or is this supposed to be a conclusion of the preceding discussion?

    Coberst, simple, declarative, English sentences are good. This stream of consciousness stuff does not help you get your idea across.


    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3 Re: Is freedom a possibility? 
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    924
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by coberst
    • Democracy is a suitable ideal as our telos.
    Why do you think that? Is this just your opinion or is this supposed to be a conclusion of the preceding discussion?

    Coberst, simple, declarative, English sentences are good. This stream of consciousness stuff does not help you get your idea across.
    I think that the American experiment with democracy has given the world a good insight into a successful attempt at democracy. This is my judgment.

    These seem to me to be simple, declarative, English sentences and thus must be good. Most readers complain that I am too verbose. I guess it goes to show that I cannot satisfy all of the people all of the time. I would be glad to disply my verbosity if you ask me to do so.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8,046
    Absolute freedom is as unattainable as an absolutely straight line.

    No matter how straight you try to draw it, there will always be some flaws in it, because nothing is perfect.

    A society can be more free or less free, however. (Just as a line can be more straight or less straight, but never perfectly straight)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    924
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax
    Absolute freedom is as unattainable as an absolutely straight line.

    No matter how straight you try to draw it, there will always be some flaws in it, because nothing is perfect.

    A society can be more free or less free, however. (Just as a line can be more straight or less straight, but never perfectly straight)
    I agree.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Freshman Retromingent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    39
    I am still stuck on how you quantified thought to come up with your 95% proportion. If thought is defined as our inner monologue, then I guess one could count sentences. But how do you count unconscious sentences (if such a thing exists) if you're not aware of them? Certainly, a lot of the mental process that emerges as thought is not the inner monologue. Intuition, for example.

    I believe that thought is a steady stream and that there is just simply times we're not paying attention to it. That is, it never shuts off as only our attention is averted. Therefore, it is like quantizing a wavelength.

    And, no, I don't think this post counts as spam. It's not an advertisement, it is not inappropriate, and you're not flaming anyone.
    Cogita ante salis
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    924
    Quote Originally Posted by Retromingent
    I am still stuck on how you quantified thought to come up with your 95% proportion. If thought is defined as our inner monologue, then I guess one could count sentences. But how do you count unconscious sentences (if such a thing exists) if you're not aware of them? Certainly, a lot of the mental process that emerges as thought is not the inner monologue. Intuition, for example.

    I believe that thought is a steady stream and that there is just simply times we're not paying attention to it. That is, it never shuts off as only our attention is averted. Therefore, it is like quantizing a wavelength.

    And, no, I don't think this post counts as spam. It's not an advertisement, it is not inappropriate, and you're not flaming anyone.
    In the 1970s a new body of empirical research began to introduce findings that questioned the traditional Anglo-American cognitive paradigm of AI (Artificial Intelligence), i.e. symbol manipulation.

    This research indicates that the neurological structures associated with sensorimotor activity are mapped directly to the higher cortical brain structures to form the foundation for subjective conceptualization in the human brain. In other words, our abstract ideas are constructed with copies of sensorimotor neurological structures as a foundation. “It is the rule of thumb among cognitive scientists that unconscious thought is 95 percent of all thought—and that may be a serious underestimate.”

    Categorization, the first level of abstraction from “Reality” is our first level of conceptualization and thus of knowing. Seeing is a process that includes categorization, we see something as an interaction between the seer and what is seen. “Seeing typically involves categorization.”

    Our categories are what we consider to be real in the world: tree, rock, animal…Our concepts are what we use to structure our reasoning about these categories. Concepts are neural structures that are the fundamental means by which we reason about categories.

    Human categories, the stuff of experience, are reasoned about in many different ways. These differing ways of reasoning, these different conceptualizations, are called prototypes and represent the second level of conceptualization

    Typical-case prototype conceptualization modes are “used in drawing inferences about category members in the absence of any special contextual information. Ideal-case prototypes allow us to evaluate category members relative to some conceptual standard…Social stereotypes are used to make snap judgments…Salient exemplars (well-known examples) are used for making probability judgments…Reasoning with prototypes is, indeed, so common that it is inconceivable that we could function for long without them.”

    When we conceptualize categories in this fashion we often envision them using spatial metaphors. Spatial relation metaphors form the heart of our ability to perceive, conceive, and to move about in space. We unconsciously form spatial relation contexts for entities: ‘in’, ‘on’, ‘about’, ‘across from’ some other entity are common relationships that make it possible for us to function in our normal manner.

    When we perceive a black cat and do not wish to cross its path our imagination conceives container shapes such that we do not penetrate the container space occupied by the cat at some time in its journey. We function in space and the container schema is a normal means we have for reasoning about action in space. Such imaginings are not conscious but most of our perception and conception is an automatic unconscious force for functioning in the world.

    Our manner of using language to explain experience provides us with an insight into our cognitive structuring process. Perceptual cues are mapped onto cognitive spaces wherein a representation of the experience is structured onto our spatial-relation contour. There is no direct connection between perception and language.

    The claim of cognitive science is “that the very properties of concepts are created as a result of the way the brain and the body are structured and the way they function in interpersonal relations and in the physical world.”


    Quotes from “Philosophy in the Flesh” by Lakoff

    What are some of the processes of thinking that must go on when I speak?
    Accessing memories that I need
    Perceiving the sounds as being language and breaking the language into phonetic aspects
    Picking out words and assigning meaning appropriate to the context
    Making some kind of pragmatic sense out of the whole
    Framing the matter relative to the situation
    Developing inferences
    Constructing appropriate images
    Interpreting the body language of the other person
    Anticipating the direction of the conversation
    Planning a response while listening

    What are some of the processes of thinking that must go on when perceiving?
    Sorting out the inputs from all of the senses
    Focusing back and forth on desired object of perception
    Developing categories and other conceptual structure
    Developing inferences

    I am quite likely doing both of these things at the same time I am walking or driving etc.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Ph.D. Steve Miller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Magdeburg, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany
    Posts
    782
    I think there are really two forms of freedom to conceive. One is a personal freedom
    often named freedom of the spirit, and second, a freedom to go where ever you want
    to. A territorial freedom an individual could and should claim for.

    The first one, the freedom of the spirit, was reached, as I think, by thinking about
    issues and to inform others about the results I come to, making way for more to do.

    I think you will see the freedom of the spirit a possibility I for myself could get to,
    or some other individual can do, or was it some other freedom I did not mention you
    mean and relate to?

    Or, an other idea, was freedom self an unknown entity?

    Thank you,
    Steve
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    joplin MO USA
    Posts
    425
    By setting up "freedom" as our goal a few centuries ago, we began a process of re-shaping society (oursellves). It gradually changed us towards freedom from responsibilities. "Rights" became "entitlement" and people came to feel that anything wrong happens, its always the other guys fault. We became litigious people and jam the courts with frivilous lawsuits. Doctors came to realize that one mistake and they could be sued, so we pay heavy fees to see a doctor so he afford to pay for his malpractice insurance. We have the freedom to write, publish and sell books on how to assasinate people, sing songs about raping women, and see our presidential political candidates humiliatingly paraded in front of us like a group of actors competing for a Mr America crown!


    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Freshman Retromingent's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    39
    This last reply is obviously coming from a political bias and comments more on government and its function as it relates to its citizens than the kind of "freedom of expression" that is meant in this topic.
    Cogita ante salis
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Bachelors Degree charles brough's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    joplin MO USA
    Posts
    425
    Quote Originally Posted by Retromingent
    This last reply is obviously coming from a political bias and comments more on government and its function as it relates to its citizens than the kind of "freedom of expression" that is meant in this topic.
    Wow! You are a real stickler for keeping on the subject, aren't you? It would appear that your have abridged my "freedom" to deal a little off the subject if I so feel like it! You would deny me my "rights"? :-D Perhaps you would make a good moderator.

    charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •