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  1. #1 reality 
    Forum Senior miomaz's Avatar
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    Reality was a highly discussed subject in the last years; lots of philosophers have claimed to have answered the question to reality. Plato for instance has explained reality as shadows on a cave wall.

    Though the newest computers and software whole worlds can be simulated. People now can distinguish between simulation and reality giving us more understanding about this theme.
    This is the reason that I access this topic, what is you're cerebration of reality?

    ---

    Reality occurs, and is a state of a value that can interact and change other values. In other words, reality is relative, for instance a program on a computer simulates a system,
    the system will be real not for the simulator but for the values being changed in the program.
    This makes it from our perspective, the program unreal but for the program it is totally real.
    Parallel running programs on the computer also don’t share the same reality.

    So are we real? "we" must be real, but this just counts for the universe and its content, since the universe has rules that change values.

    for example, one takes a formula and calculates it, the numbers will be real to each other.
    If I went shopping and looked at the bill the numbers would be unreal to each other.

    Reality occurs then when there are rules that [can] change values.


    I haven't come to fight my word, but to find the truth.
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  3. #2  
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    I agree with you.

    And I will contribute some ideas (my English isn't so good)

    I think reality is everything. I call it absolute reality.
    under this defination, a human dream is a reality, it is a chamical or something's reaction. It is reality.
    But, for humans' daily life, a dream is not a reality. Because, the defination changed. I call it relative reality.

    computer simulation is a reality, because it consumes power, output pictures. you cannot say it is not real. But the story they simulate is not reality. From different point of view, one thing may be real, may be fake too.


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  4. #3  
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    I think we have to have a clear definition of reality at first before we can discuss the issue closer.

    For me, reality is in general everything that exists.
    That includes pictures, actual objects, dreams, etc.
    Dreams are mental representations, as are all thoughts and also everything we perceive - the continuum around us isn't just so as we see or hear or smell etc. it, but it is just a practical representation for us, having been developed through evolution.

    But, one has to ask, what the heck is "unreal"? If dreams are unreal, then they must come from something beyond, because everything within the universe IS in fact real. It might not be tangible, but it is real.
    Otherwise, you would have to say that it comes from anywhere outside the universe. And that isn't so. It's right in your head.

    And if you say that reality changes values...then you have to include dreams, for dreams surely change you, and also the simulator does.

    However, somebody might argue that there are potentials of things, and that these potentials, or "shadows", as Plato said, might actualize in reality, but the potentials themselves are not real.
    But everything that IS is REAL.
    How can something possibly not be real?
    Everything has an impact on something else, as your argument of change is. And if it does not, well, I don't think anything like that exists. As I said, it had to be beyond space and time not to interact with the continuum.

    What's the difference between thoughts and the "actual" world, then?
    The difference between these two is that your brain recognizes the one as being yourself, your "I", while it recognizes the other as "distinguished, different from you" (it should be so, otherwise you might wanna go to a psychologist ).
    It is a simple discrimination made by your brain.

    It is also the archetypes and all the images of your body your brain has deeply inside of you. It is, for example, the control of your heart rate, and the image of it deeply interwoven in you.
    But it still exists in reality.

    What is the difference between an imagined move and an actual move?
    Well, if you merely imagine your arm moving, then your nerves still respond, but not in exactly the same way as when you really move your arm. You just don't give the command to your arm to actually move, until you REALLY move.

    Why do dreams affect my body?
    It's the same as it is with your arm. when you dream of danger, then you send signals through your nerves. The difference is, however, that you don't run away in actuality, because your brain watches it and controls these mechanisms.

    Why do I not realize that my dream-reality is just a dream?
    The rational mind is switched off in a dream. Your dream-reality is then what you believe to be the actual reality, as it is when you are awake.

    And the word BELIEF is important to emphasize here.
    I am.
    You can't deny it.
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  5. #4  
    Forum Junior Kolt's Avatar
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    Everything exist. So reality is everything. Yet, not every-one-thing is as applicable as the next.

    Applicable by who's standards? You may ask.

    Well, that depends on the individual. Therefore you now have:

    Reality vs. Interpretation



    .....and that is where the plot thickens.
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  6. #5  
    Forum Senior miomaz's Avatar
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    I'm wondering if I should of posted this some where in the science part of the forum.
    I'm sorry, but I believe that I was unable to express myself correctly.

    mastermind, think correctly. You're idea is just to a certain point right, but to locate reality has to be precise.

    A dream Is a thought, nothing but a story, simulated, but also strongly influenced by the mind.

    It is the human brain that can encrypt the dream and make it look like reality, but what a dream is is a pattern of brain currents.

    Lets say we go away from the computer simulation and let us look at a picture

    picture:

    it seems as if we would be looking at a yellow face that is rolling its eyes, but it is just a light that is projected on a screen that illuminates the eye and is not a face, what the human mind think it to be.

    the simulation will affect us by us seeing it, but lets leave us out of the game:


    two computer programmes, running on the same computer, what does happen? the programs will not affect each other (unless it is a hack-program but let us leave that out of this).
    you see that the programs have values and rules that change constantly but don't change one another's values (and rules).



    the point: reality occurs then when values relate to one another, not when it seems like as if.(simulation, games, programs, parallel universes...)
    but remember,
    if someday a person would have the knowledge to simulate the universe, the universe would be unreal to the person but the universe would be real for beings in it.
    I haven't come to fight my word, but to find the truth.
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    @miomaz:

    I don't understand what you are saying.
    Let's suppose a God created the universe.
    For him, it would be as real as he himself is.
    And if I look at the yellow face on my computer screen, I see, as you said correctly, an illuminated screen.
    But if I look at a real face, what do I see?
    I see something that reflects light.
    I see something that reflects light on the computer screen as well.
    And it is our perception which interprets the values of reality.
    Kolt has pointed that out correctly:

    Reality vs. Interpretation

    And if we think about it, then, that a computer exists of the same matter as a "real" face does, then, how can we define reality and unreality.
    Matter is matter, and there is no matter more real than the other.

    What exactly do you mean by "values"?
    The computer program changes how my eye adapts to what is happening in the game, so it DOES change values.
    It doesn't change the laws of nature. But if I say that E=2*m*c, then I don't change the fact that E=mc². And if I create a computer program that has the equation E=2*m*c (however that might look like, I don't know), then I don't change any law of nature.
    And that is because the computer game is not outside of the universe.
    BUT: that doesn't change reality. Reality is there, firm, and cannot be overthrown by any means.
    I see now what you want. You think that physical laws are only real for them who live in the continuum.
    Let's consider this:

    Imagine you would be born with glasses on your eyes, simulating a world that has other physical laws as our world does. Then this person doesn't know that it is different, it only knows HIS reality (well, only glasses wouldn't probably do much, but suppose his brain is connected to a computer-simulation, just like in the Matrix.
    Then you'd have actual individuals looking into a simulation, but what would then still be real for you?
    Would, in your perspective, the body of the individual still be real, but his mind not, because it is now in a computer-simulation?
    How do YOU know that you are not in a computer-simulation right now?

    Now, how can that be interpreted?
    One possibility is that reality is something completely subjective, and that everybody has another reality for himself. That would mean that there is in fact no such thing as a standard of what reality is, because the mind decides what is reality. This would lead us to the conclusion that values are relative to the one who sees it, and that would fully support your hypothesis.

    Another hypothesis/interpretation would however be that there IS A reality, A truth. It might be that "laws of nature" are a mere artifact, and that the cause - effect - relationship is but an imagination. With no actual laws you'd have no reference of where values change and where not.

    One might also argue that dreams are not unreal, but they are real as they are yourself. They are real because what your mind is, is by definition thoughts and images. And dreams are yourself, your experiences a little bit (or quite a bit) mixed together, but they are real as they are YOU.

    Actually my first argument is sufficient to show you that there is no unreality:
    If we are in fact a computer program, then we are still made of the same matter as our creators would be made. So we are as real as they are, EVEN IF WE HAVE OTHER "LAWS"!
    Because reality as existence differs only from the matter of what it is made.

    This is a logical chain:
    1.Reality and Unreality differ in the matter of which they are made.
    2.There is only one kind of matter.
    3.Thus, there is no difference between reality and unreality.

    If you could show me that in fact other things are made of different matter, then you can disprove me.
    I am.
    You can't deny it.
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  8. #7  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    time to bring in the subject of inter-subjectivity : in science individual experiences count for little when attempting to refute or corroborate a scientific theory

    however, if the experience can be repeated by other people under similar circumstances, and there is general agreement between the individual subjective experiences, chances are that we talk of something that approaches objective existence or reality

    as far as science is concerned, reality is something that exists by general consensus from common experience - however, from this it also follows that the consensus and therefore the 'reality' of an object or concept can turn out to be a chimera (e.g. flat earth, phlogiston, ether ...)
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    @marnixR:
    Well, I think that the scientists know that it isn't really so, but that this is just a convenient definition, while doing scientific experiments.

    And modern science even agrees that everything is subjective.
    I am.
    You can't deny it.
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  10. #9  
    WYSIWYG Moderator marnixR's Avatar
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    but within the confines of science, the repeatability of experiments is of paramount importance for getting some degree of acceptance - this is really where inter-subjectivity comes into its own : if different people or groups of people can perform the same experiment and come up with the same results, chances are that we're talking about something that is 'real' in some sense
    "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away." (Philip K. Dick)
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    @marnixR:
    I'd rather say that the formulas are very precise.
    Scientists even say that all the scientific work is just an image of reality, but not reality itself.
    I am.
    You can't deny it.
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  12. #11  
    Forum Senior miomaz's Avatar
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    hello again,

    How do YOU know that you are not in a computer-simulation right now?
    It dosn't matter, if I am simulated then every atom in my body is and it is real, relative to all other people in this simulated world on a computer of somesort.

    Ok, I just found out the 2 viaritys of seeing reality:

    you define reality as what you think reality is, for example a man on a screen.

    I define reality as what reacts to eachoter bound by rules, and that reality can be real for 1 thing but unreal for the other.



    Now I will define why it is impossible for reality to be what you think reality is, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear last time, but I ashure you that you'll think thesame once you understand.
    It would interrest me what you understood from me and that you would write this down. Thank you.

    now to the description:

    You are looking at a picture, the picture is real ofcouse 100% all the colors and paint, its all real.

    Now look at the boat on the picture. The boat is unreal. It is not a boat.

    Look at the sun on the picture. It is unreal, it is not a real sun it does not shine.

    Look at the birds in the sky, I assure you that these won't come flying out of the picture, because it is not a bird but oil-color on a peace of paper.

    In a way the picture is a simulation of a moment or of a moment that could have been. It is unreal and it never will be.

    Do you have anything to say against this statement? (If you don't understand this you're intelligence quotient must be to minimal.)

    with best regards,

    miomaz
    I haven't come to fight my word, but to find the truth.
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  13. #12  
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    I dont think reality could ever really be defined or labeled as what causes our perception of reality? Simply the electronic signal sent to our brain from various sensory organs. All of which we see, hear, feel are created within the brain. So if technology allowed it would be possable for someone to spend their entire life as a brain with its sensory perception coming from a computer rather than the organs which we have. How would such a person ,if the technology was good enough, determine reality from his artificial reality? How can we say what we percieve to be reality is the same as others? Someone may see the colour green which is actually another persons blue after all although everyone labels it the same colour. The perception of colour is based on the energy caused by the frequancy of the light hitting the retina stimualting an neural pulse to the brain. Perception is too flimsy and variable a thing to believe it to be unilateraly the same. Even if you dismiss the idea of stimulated perception take for instance the very real topic of LSD. LSD was heavily researched before it was banned mostly due to misconcetions and the non-understanding of its possable insights into the brain. It changed the way neurons react to stimulase and so created staggering changed in the perception of the test subjects. People could see sound and taste colour. It opened up many unexplained phenomina and taught us just how complex the brain is although alot more questions would be answered if investigations were still permitted into what can admitabley be a dangerous drug. So with this knowledge of our near complete ignorance of perception how can we claim to now reality at all.
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    @miomaz:

    To the boat in the picture and the boat in "reality":

    What exactly do you define as a boat?
    Or more exactly:
    What does your brain define as a boat?

    Boat > picture of a boat > function + use of a boat

    That's then the boat.

    By drawing a picture we create a boat which has CERTAIN but not ALL aspects of what we know as a "real" boat.
    Let's say you have a simulation of a boat where you can touch the boat, feel the boat, smell the boat, hear it and see it. And you can possibly ride in it.
    That's all what is there to have a boat; that's all we define as a boat, or our brains do identify it as a boat.

    So is the simulation real or is it not real?
    I am.
    You can't deny it.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by mastermind
    @miomaz:

    To the boat in the picture and the boat in "reality":

    What exactly do you define as a boat?
    Or more exactly:
    What does your brain define as a boat?

    So is the simulation real or is it not real?
    You are mistaken, definition and reality is not the same thing, making the mind think that colors on a peace of paper seem to be a boat is unreal and just seems to be real because are organs say that the colors on that paper are a boat.


    Quote Originally Posted by mastermind
    @miomaz:

    Boat > picture of a boat > function + use of a boat
    the boat is not the same as a picture of a boat since the picture are just colors and not a boat.
    The boat is defined not by its function and its use but by its effects on the enviorment.



    Quote Originally Posted by mastermind
    @miomaz:

    By drawing a picture we create a boat which has CERTAIN but not ALL aspects of what we know as a "real" boat.
    So you see not everything is real...

    the light that repels off of the picture is [almost] the same as a real boat, that is the only thing that is the same.

    just because my socks are green doesn’t make them to frogs.

    Quote Originally Posted by mastermind
    @miomaz:
    Let's say you have a simulation of a boat where you can touch the boat, feel the boat, smell the boat, hear it and see it. And you can possibly ride in it.
    That's all what is there to have a boat; that's all we define as a boat, or our brains do identify it as a boat.

    So is the simulation real or is it not real?
    It is real when:
    Every atom in the boat and environment are simulated and bound by rules, they don't have to be the same as those of our universe.

    Its unreal when:
    The environment is not bound by rules and not everything is simulated
    but animated (pre-programmed motion ect.)



    I have the feeling that you are repeating yourself, this is unnecessary.
    I haven't come to fight my word, but to find the truth.
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  16. #15  
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    Again:
    Reality is what our brain identifies.
    As we look at Socrates's analogy that everything is just a shadow, then it might be that there are more than 3 space dimensions, and that we indeed look only at shadows, and not onto the "real" things.

    Does a computer game not have an effect on the environment?
    Does it not illuminate your room?
    Do YOU not react to it?

    Optical illusions show us how easily our brain can be tricked. Reality is thus only what is PERCEIVED as being real.
    Dark matter, for example, was not reality, because we didn't know about it.

    It's true that everything that has an influence on something else is reality, but that includes video games and simulations, because they also change things (like your eye-adjustment).

    1.Everything which is matter is reality.
    2.Everything consists of matter.
    3.Therefore everything is real.

    There is a nice example of the wise Asian man who dreamed to be a butterfly. As he woke up, he didn't know if he was a human who just dreamed to be a butterfly, or a butterfly who was dreaming to be a human.
    I am.
    You can't deny it.
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  17. #16  
    Forum Senior miomaz's Avatar
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    Reality is what our brain identifies.
    In every perspective that you look at you're belief, this is an error.

    look at wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality

    "the state of things as they actually exist."

    not as our brain identifies. The norm of humanity defines reality as the state of things as they actually exist and NOT as how our brain thinks how it MAY be.


    I will ignore the reat, since I already have explained this. You don't have any argumens that supports you're badly overthought idea.
    I haven't come to fight my word, but to find the truth.
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