Thread: Everything is already decided

Hello everyone, I am Merlijn and I am 15 years old. I come from the Netherlands so im sorry if my English is not that great. (Im calling it "My theory" in this post but it is probably someone else his, but it's hard to write it without it so its not officially my theory.) (So note that this is not my theory and im not trying to get credit of anything else for it)

I came up with a theory which may already excist but I have never heard from before. The theory says that everything that is going to happen in the future has already been decided. Let me give you an example: Its Sunday and you haven't been studying for your test yet. You get to make a decision, study and have a higher chance for a good grade or don't study and have a lower chance for a good grade. My Theory says that your grade has already been decided. That's hard to understand but ill go further in it. Lets say the grade was a 4.9, that's not so good. But how did you get so low? The choice I've set up earlier between study and don't study was already made, you didn't study and you would have never. Because it was decided you woudn't, and no! It wasnt decided by somone like a God type of thing. It was decided by everything around you. Everything was excactly in place on the right spot on the right time to make you decide you won't study for the test, and that "Everything" was again decided by something else. In this loop there is no end and no beginning.

It's really hard to explain but its more likely to be a mindset than a understanding. Lets take another example, you are aware of this theory and you have a test tomorrow. You think about the previous example to not study for the test and get a low grade. Well you say to yourself im not going to study but you are actually going to. It was already decided that you were going to say to yourself yourself you were not going to study but you still did and you got a 7.9, so actually you can't go ahead of the theory because the theory lives in the future. Even if you say to yourself a thousand time's "I am not going to study, no wait I am going to study, no im not going to study, yes im going to study, so on..." its already decided what you are going to do. Maybe you study for the test but you never get your grade, because you got hit by a bus and you are in the hospital now. Than it was decided you where going to be hit by that bus, no matter what you did it was going to happen. But you are still unaware of it.

Again an example of what im trying to tell, your excact date of when you are going to die has already been made. You still don't know it when its going to happen but it is going to happen some day. Maybe that date is in a 1000 years from now because some medicine was found that repairs your stem cells. Maybe that date is tomorrow but it has already been decided it is on a exact date.

And im not saying I am right in this theory, but I am willing to learn why this is right or wrong because it goes around in my head for a long time. Also it was decided that I would write this Thread and it was decide you would read this Thread on this excact second of this day. I'm not trying to say that people don't have a choice in life. Because we all have our own choices. But when you make your OWN choice it was already decided your would make that choice and get that outcome.

Thanks for reading my Thread and I hope I'll get feedback on this Theory.

Moved to Philosophy.

Can you provide any evidence, or even a logical argument, that this "theory" (it's not actually a theory however) is factual?

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Moved to Philosophy.

Can you provide any evidence, or even a logical argument, that this "theory" (it's not actually a theory however) is factual?

Can you provide any evidence that god excists?

This is a non sequitur, can you support YOUR idea or not?

(PS to answer your question there is no evidence that god exists, if there was people wouldn't need a screw loose faith to believe in the idea...

Originally Posted by 15mc

Can you provide any evidence that god excists?

I don't need to: because I haven't claimed that he/ she/ it does.

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by 15mc

Can you provide any evidence that god excists?

I don't need to: because I haven't claimed that he/ she/ it does.

I haven't claimed that this theory is correct, its just a theory. I indeed have no evidence but I was curious if there was a possibility this could excist.

What im talking about is the Past Now Future. When something happend you know it happend, when you move your hand up and down you know you moved your hand up and down. Same for the future but you are unaware it is going to happen until it happens. That you are reading this comment has already been decided. Everything humanity does and every movement that is made is decide because its the future that become's the Now.

Originally Posted by PhDemon

This is a non sequitur, can you support YOUR idea or not?

(PS to answer your question there is no evidence that god exists, if there was people wouldn't need a screw loose faith to believe in the idea...

I have no factual evidence, this was made to get people thinking about this. In short it says: Your whole timelime from birth to death, everything you do or have done was already decided how it would go. A line which all people live by, even if you are aware of this line you can't chance it. (Because if you where aware of the line it was decided you would become aware of the line so the outcome of your actions have already been decided)

Ah, but as a scientist I start with the idea that if there is no evidence (or at least a logical argument in its favour) it isn't worth wasting time on. If time is spent on every idea people come up with we'd never get anything done!

Originally Posted by 15mc

I have no factual evidence

You don't need "factual evidence". What you do need is a convincing argument for it to be taken seriously.

this was made to get people thinking about this. In short it says: Your whole timelime from birth to death, everything you do or have done was already decided how it would go. A line which all people live by, even if you are aware of this line you can't chance it. (Because if you where aware of the line it was decided you would become aware of the line so the outcome of your actions have already been decided)

1) Unless there's some argument to support the view then the response can only be "So what?".
2) IF, as you posit, everything IS fixed then it makes no difference whatsoever whether we're aware of "the line" or not: things are still fixed.

Originally Posted by PhDemon

Ah, but as a scientist I start with the idea that if there is no evidence (or at least a logical argument in its favour) it isn't worth wasting time on. If time is spent on every idea people come up with we'd never get anything done!

I know what you mean that you need like evidence, but everything starts with an idea and things about space and time how could I come up with evidence. First you need a group to believe it has a possibility that life is fixed. Than you come up with arguments. If you would go to sleep and think about life that is already fixed from the beginning. Maybe you will think about it more deeper and deeper and than you decide if you believe or not. (But what you are going to decide has already been fixed.)

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by 15mc

I have no factual evidence

You don't need "factual evidence". What you do need is a convincing argument for it to be taken seriously.

this was made to get people thinking about this. In short it says: Your whole timelime from birth to death, everything you do or have done was already decided how it would go. A line which all people live by, even if you are aware of this line you can't chance it. (Because if you where aware of the line it was decided you would become aware of the line so the outcome of your actions have already been decided)

1) Unless there's some argument to support the view then the response can only be "So what?".
2) IF, as you posit, everything IS fixed then it makes no difference whatsoever whether we're aware of "the line" or not: things are still fixed.

My argument is that life is fixed, its hard to explain okay! I can try once again but than you just decide of thinking it through or not.

If you know you are going to get hit by a car tomorrow on exactly this second. There is nothing you can do to stop that from happening. It has been fixed you are going to be hit by a car.

What im trying to say is that you now don't know you are going to be hit by a car. Again there is nothing you can do to stop that from happening. It has been fixed you are going to be hit by a car. The only thing that seperate's us and the car is the knowing and unknowing. You are going to get hit if you know it or not. Thats what I mean by life is fixed. It is going to happen but you are only aware of it after it happend.

I can't explain it better than this, thank you.

Everything starts with an idea, true. But without support that's also where it ends... I'll leave you to it...

Originally Posted by PhDemon

Everything starts with an idea, true. But without support that's also where it ends... I'll leave you to it...

My argument is that life is fixed, its hard to explain okay! I can try once again but than you just decide of thinking it through or not.

If you know you are going to get hit by a car tomorrow on exactly this second. There is nothing you can do to stop that from happening. It has been fixed you are going to be hit by a car.

What im trying to say is that you now don't know you are going to be hit by a car. Again there is nothing you can do to stop that from happening. It has been fixed you are going to be hit by a car. The only thing that seperate's us and the car is the knowing and unknowing. You are going to get hit if you know it or not. Thats what I mean by life is fixed. It is going to happen but you are only aware of it after it happend.

I can't explain it better than this, thank you.

Originally Posted by 15mc

I can try once again but than you just decide of thinking it through or not.

There's nothing to "think through".

If you know you are going to get hit by a car tomorrow on exactly this second. There is nothing you can do to stop that from happening. It has been fixed you are going to be hit by a car.

Exactly.

What im trying to say is that you now don't know you are going to be hit by a car. Again there is nothing you can do to stop that from happening. It has been fixed you are going to be hit by a car. The only thing that seperate's us and the car is the knowing and unknowing. You are going to get hit if you know it or not. Thats what I mean by life is fixed. It is going to happen but you are only aware of it after it happend.

So, as you claim, "knowing" won't make any difference at all (except for worry beforehand): BUT, - and you appear to have ignored or not thought of this - even if we got to know that would mean that that THAT (coming to know) was ALSO fixed - in other words we couldn't choose a path that would lead us to knowing this (if we wanted to) or one that would would stop us learning this (if that was what we wanted) because we can't do anything except what is fixed.
It would mean that, essentially, we're characters in a book: we have no choices, no options.

So, as I said, the response is "So what?".

Without a supporting argument there's no reason to believe this is actually the case...

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by 15mc

I can try once again but than you just decide of thinking it through or not.

There's nothing to "think through".

If you know you are going to get hit by a car tomorrow on exactly this second. There is nothing you can do to stop that from happening. It has been fixed you are going to be hit by a car.

Exactly.

What im trying to say is that you now don't know you are going to be hit by a car. Again there is nothing you can do to stop that from happening. It has been fixed you are going to be hit by a car. The only thing that seperate's us and the car is the knowing and unknowing. You are going to get hit if you know it or not. Thats what I mean by life is fixed. It is going to happen but you are only aware of it after it happend.

So, as you claim, "knowing" won't make any difference at all (except for worry beforehand): BUT, - and you appear to have ignored or not thought of this - even if we got to know that would mean that that THAT (coming to know) was ALSO fixed - in other words we couldn't choose a path that would lead us to knowing this (if we wanted to) or one that would would stop us learning this (if that was what we wanted) because we can't do anything except what is fixed.
It would mean that, essentially, we're characters in a book: we have no choices, no options.

So, as I said, the response is "So what?".

Without a supporting argument there's no reason to believe this is actually the case...

You understand it, there is no reason we could all just live our live's on because everything we get to know about this subject was fixed. It's just that there is a possibility. It wouldn't add anything to society for knowing this exists, it are just small things that you can think about.

My two cents. I've used this before when talking pre determinism and whether it pokes a hole in your 'theory' or not I couldn't tell you.

Let's say drunk drivers kill 100 people on average in a county each year. We would know the names of each victim and we could also easily say it was predetermined their number was up. The county decides to step up and crack down on drunk drivers and lo and behold the fatalities drop to an an average of 25 in the following years. We could still say we knew who were predetermined to be killed but we would have no idea who was predetermined to be saved. If you could give me those names then maybe you have something there but all you can do is say it was predetermined that no one can know.

heard this argument before.
OK


I have my morning coffee. Is it predetermined that I will have a bowel movement or not?

Thank you very much

What does the predetermining anyway? If we could say "everything is predetermined" ,it would only ,at most mean "everything has been theorized to have been predetermined" and will remain so until we observe otherwise.

And even then would that (and previous) observations have also been "predetermined"? (if not then the consequences of that observation might not follow)

For what it is worth, I think the current scientific position is that god (in Einstein's words) does in fact play dice with the universe.

Originally Posted by babe

I have my morning coffee. Is it predetermined that I will have a bowel movement or not?

Its been decided that you will not only drink coffee at Starbucks but will use their post caffeine facilities as well. By order of the Pre-determiner

Originally Posted by 15mc

If you know you are going to get hit by a car tomorrow on exactly this second. There is nothing you can do to stop that from happening. It has been fixed you are going to be hit by a car.

So does that mean that we are wasting our time looking both ways when crossing the road?

Hey Ox, how's things? Not being the sharpest knife in the drawer I just realized the absurdity of 15mc's quote. Of course if I knew all that info then it is going to happen even if I locked myself in the basement for the day, somehow a car will find me. lol Unfortunately, or fortunately, we don't know. Lottery sales would suffer if we knew who wins because if we knew that then why buy a ticket? Or would we still buy a ticket just for the thrill of watching someone else win? I kind of doubt it. Poor winner might be the only guy who buys a ticket.

We were having coffee today at local establishment. Raining outside and my wife spots a moth upside down with its wings stuck to the wet window sill. She just had to go outside and flip it over. Got me thinking about the Butterfly Effect, Homer Simpson and time travelers. I asked her if she was a tt and she looked at me as if I was from another planet. I chuckled inside.

Originally Posted by babe

OK
I have my morning coffee. Is it predetermined that I will have a bowel movement or not?

Absolutely: you WILL have a bowel movement (at some point in your life...)

Originally Posted by Dywyddyr

Originally Posted by babe

OK
I have my morning coffee. Is it predetermined that I will have a bowel movement or not?

Absolutely: you WILL have a bowel movement (at some point in your life...)

I think you may have squared the circle

Originally Posted by geordief

I think you may have squared the circle

You have to be careful though: many years ago I was (as usual for lunch time) in a friend's shop talking to the usual crowd when someone tried to move me out of the way.
As his hand touched me I shouted "Get your hand off my arse!".
Stunned he looked at me and said "It was your back I touched, not your arse", to which I replied "Yes, it was my back: but I moved my bowels this morning"...

I will.

We aren't even there yet and already the future looks shitty.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by babe

I have my morning coffee. Is it predetermined that I will have a bowel movement or not?

Its been decided that you will not only drink coffee at Starbucks but will use their post caffeine facilities as well. By order of the Pre-determiner

EWWw STARBUCKS? NO WAY!

Yeah, friends don't let friends drink Starfucks. It's about Dutch Bros' around here.

I need to know if what happened to me yesterday was predetermined or is there another explanation.
My train was late arriving by 5 minutes. I needed to catch a bus connection but missed it by about 1 minute, so waited for the next bus half hour later. Getting off at my destination I banged my head on the wing mirror of the bus causing a sharp pain.
I have never done this before, ever, ever...
Now I had some potentially bad news about my health earlier in the week which has caused me to drop into a black hole of despair.
Could the events be connected? It does seem to happen that the brain adjusts downwards with bad news and reduced spatial awareness could be a factor.
So if you do get knocked down by a car could it be your brain that is lacking alertness. It takes two to make most accidents happen.

Wouldn't a predetermined world suggest an infinite number of predeterminations? I mean the predeterminations would
also be predetermined and so on down the line, ad infinitum.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Wouldn't a predetermined world suggest an infinite number of predeterminations? I mean the predeterminations would
also be predetermined and so on down the line, ad infinitum.

Yes I thought that was the general idea.But it seems to have been shown that this is not the way things work and the (pre) determinism only works in a probabilistic way .

You might perhaps ask is the probability predetermined and I wouldn't know if there could be an answer to that.

Could determinism and randomness exist somehow "symbiotically" ?

I used to think that it was just our limited physical capabilities that prevented us from foreseeing the future to an indefinite degree but apparently this uncertainty is woven into the structure of the universe.

i'll rather go with free will and living with the consequencies, than the excuse of not being responsible because it was written in the stars.

It was predetermined that I had a nightmare, woke up, had coffee, decided to eat, took a poo poo, and kissed 1000 men today.

I sure love this already decided crap.

Sorry
I am past skeptical! *L*

Originally Posted by babe

It was predetermined that I had a nightmare, woke up, had coffee, decided to eat, took a poo poo, and kissed 1000 men today.

I sure love this already decided crap.

youre old enough to remember these Lovin' Spoonful lyrics:

Did you ever have to make up your mind?
And pick up on one and leave the other behind?
It's not often easy and not often kind.
Did you ever have to make up your mind?
Did you ever have to finally decide?
And say yes to one and let the other one ride?
There's so many changes and tears you must hide.
Did you ever have to finally decide?

If no one actually decides then I guess all crime is ok.

Originally Posted by zinjanthropos

Originally Posted by babe

It was predetermined that I had a nightmare, woke up, had coffee, decided to eat, took a poo poo, and kissed 1000 men today.

I sure love this already decided crap.

youre old enough to remember these Lovin' Spoonful lyrics:

Did you ever have to make up your mind?
And pick up on one and leave the other behind?
It's not often easy and not often kind.
Did you ever have to make up your mind?
Did you ever have to finally decide?
And say yes to one and let the other one ride?
There's so many changes and tears you must hide.
Did you ever have to finally decide?

If no one actually decides then I guess all crime is ok.

Well I was in my teens but yes!

The very idea that everything is or implied to be predetermined.. Utter nonsense.
For my negative of the notion I will offer the accident that ended my working career with NEWA NZ.
I was awake early some hours before my shift hours were due.. I decided to go and help the chef with breakfast. I often did this as we got on well. When you are crew of a ocean going ship some times 90 days long trips. You pitch in, all being part of the team. I was crisping the bacon and shelling eggs.. Yes the work boots got a little greasy.. a few mins., later while going up a deck .. whoops and I bumped my head on the top step.. ( Was this predetermined because I got up early..) regardless my small brain had a little bleed that took me off of the ship. Clumsy slippery soul wrecks my idea of a good job. Some years later my mind has sorted it's self out to a standard expectable. I now drive a 24 wheeler from the store to the off site storeroom. Was any of that predetermined.. No.
That things happen and we have no control of what and when is part of being acceptive of life and circumstance.
Being of a age where the past did unfold the way it did because it did.
My own actions and a moments distraction changed my life path for ever.
I can now say that life is better, great even. Determined by me.

To paraphrase Isaac Singer: "I have to believe in free will, what other choice do I have?"

If you believe it is physics all the way down, then its hard to not believe in some form of determinism. Either the clock work of general relativity or the random chaos of Quantum Mechanics but neither leave a lot of space for something as fleeting as free will.

I was in a car wreck. Was it predetermined that the car in front of me would stop for a left turn, and that I would stop and the car that hit me going over 35 MPH wouldn't hit it's brakes till it plowed into me and I got to play ping pong being tossed between two cars?

I don't think so.

I think the plausibility of determinism came about because it seemed that you could have predictable simple chains of events cascading one into the other.

But when two or more such chains of events "bump into" each other the ability of anyone to calculate the outcome would be practically impossible even with all the resources of the Universe at his , her or its disposal.

And since it is probably the case that the Universe is entirely predeterminable or not at all then it must be random to a degree (says me )

Is not probability of an occurrence only the likelihood (odds) of the event happening and the possibility of it either a yay or nay? Simply believimg does not make something likely, thus possibilities cannot be confirmed. Would we not need a known factor to establish likelihood? What would be the known factor(s) for determinism or does it fall strictly under the belief umbrella?