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Thread: china was a very backward country in history

  1. #1 china was a very backward country in history 
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    A) china was enslaved for 2000 years.

    1) chinese were the lowest class in mongol, manchu, xianbei, Khitan, Jurchen empires.
    genghis khan's law, killing a chinese = killing a donkey,
    sorry to mention this
    mongols, manchs, xianbei killed over 50% of chinese. (in three different times)

    2)jurchen took two chinese kings, and forced them walk naked on the streets.
    chinese kings had to call the kings of jurchen as uncle for about 100 years.

    Men of chinese royal family were sold into slavery in exchange for horses with a ratio of ten men for one horse.
    wiki/Jingkang_Incident

    3) chinese king had to call the Khan of Khitan as father, grandfather
    wiki/Later_Jin_Dynasty

    4)other two chinese kings of chinese were also taken by foreigners as slaves.
    /wiki/Emperor_Huai_of_Jin


    5) manchus ruled china for 300 years till 1911.
    the population rate was 100,000,000 chinese VS1.000.000 manchus.


    6)then japan ruled 2/3 of china since 1937-1945( including the chinese captial), and killed over 30,000,000 chinese.

    Russia and USA saved china , Otherwise china should ruled by japan now.



    B) china was very poor

    1) In the past 2000 years.
    There were more than 110 great starvation in china, people even had to eat people to stay alive.

    2) In 1959-1961. . there are 30,000,000 chinese died in starvation.
    Great Chinese Famine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    3) china declares china can feed itself, but china had to import a lot of grains from
    north America every year.



    4) in 1960's, chinese defence minister Peng Dehui said many chinese had no pants to wear.



    5) in chinese ming empire - general Lu Xiangsheng said that, many chinese soldier had no pants to wear.


    6)in WWII, chinese soldiers still wear grass shoes.
    img.haokanbu.com/img/blog/684f8084eec24adbae0d1f8f3e7cfa54.jpeg



    C) china was far behind Europe in history.


    1) Europe and Near East entered iron age at least 600 years earlier than china.

    china entered machine age later than Europe.
    china entered information age later than Europe.


    2) when European and middle east people built stone houses, chinese king lived in a mud palace.
    Egypt built Pyramids. Great Pyramid of Giza 4500 years ago.
    Erlitou, The capital of china(2100 BC – 1600 BC) was built by mud.


    3)Middle east invented writing 5000 years ago.
    The oldest chinese oracle bones is about 3500 years.
    wiki/Oracle_bone

    4) since china invented writing only about 3500 years ago,
    so the so-called 5000 years chinese civilization is a completely joke.


    5) since china entered Iron age 600 years later than Europe and Near East,
    so china has a much shorter civilization.

    At the time, European used iron tools, chinese used primitive tools.
    /wiki/Iron_Age

    6) china invented 0 machines and proposed almost 0 formulas .
    car, train, phone, radio, computer, mobile, TV, aircraft, spaceship, Typewriter, fridge, fax machine, copy machine, scanner, ATM, Vending machine, washing machine, helicopter, ........... tank, submarine, robot. - Nothing is from china.



    7) Professor Joseph Needham proved china invented paper, gun powder,
    printing, the magnetic compass.


    Needham has been criticized for his strong inclination to exaggerate Chinese technological achievements.


    example, gunpowder
    gunpowder was invented by Greek - Greek fire, its chief ingredient was saltpeter, (and Sulfur), making it an early form of gunpowder.


    glass was invented 5000 years ago.
    it was before chinese history. The world did not to wait for china to invent gunpowder.


    D) china was very backward


    till the early 1900's, if chinese against the chinese ruling class, the punishment were:

    1) killing all relatives of the person, and all relatives of the
    relatives of the person, and all relatives of the relatives of the
    relatives of the person .

    Nine familial exterminations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    2) And, they would be chopped into at least 1000 pieces.

    Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    E) without the west influence, china will never enter the computer age.

    1) Chinese never invented alphabet, chinese use hieroglyphs.

    so china is not able to invent a chinese keyboard.
    Then chinese are not able to invent a computer.

    2) china never invent punctuation,
    The first chinesse book to be printed with punctuation was the History of Chinese Philosophy by Hu Shi.(1891-1962)


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    china was far behind Europe in history.

    1) Middle east invented writing 5000 years ago.
    The oldest chinese oracle bones is about 3500 years.
    wiki/Oracle_bone

    2) since china invented writing only about 3500 years ago,
    so the so-called 5000 years chinese civilization is a completely joke.


    3) since china entered Iron age 600 years later than Europe and Near East,
    so china has a much shorter civilization.


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    Professor Joseph Needham proved china invented paper, gun powder,
    printing, the magnetic compass.

    Needham has been criticized for his strong inclination to exaggerate Chinese technological achievements.



    Example, gunpowder
    gunpowder was invented by Greek - Greek fire, its chief ingredient was saltpeter, (and Sulfur), making it an early form of gunpowder.


    glass was invented 5000 years ago.
    it was before chinese history. The world did not to wait for china to invent gunpowder.
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    Middle east invented writing 5000 years ago.
    The oldest chinese oracle bones is about 3500 years.
    wiki/Oracle_bone

    since china invented writing only about 3500 years ago,
    so the so-called 5000 years chinese civilization is a completely joke.
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  6. #5  
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    So, in summary, you don't have a good opinion of the Chinese? Did I understand you correctly?
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Haven't we had your anti-China rants before, under a different username?

    http://www.thescienceforum.com/members/steelcat.html
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    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Haven't we had your anti-China rants before, under a different username?

    View Profile: steelcat - The Science Forum
    It's definitely him alright.

    Do u think the so-called 5000 years chinese civilization is real?
    Cogito Ergo Sum likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flushking View Post
    Middle east invented writing 5000 years ago.
    The oldest chinese oracle bones is about 3500 years.
    wiki/Oracle_bone

    since china invented writing only about 3500 years ago,
    so the so-called 5000 years chinese civilization is a completely joke.
    Weird, because if you go to certain contemporary countries/nations, where people historically never developed writing-systems, a great portion of them would be able to present to you a very impressive list of their lineage - often on both sides of the family... And that's from memory. How far can you trace your lineage? Seems that histories, cultures, and civilizations can live on through the oral tradition.

    Another interesting fact about the oral tradition: In certain pastoralist societies, where cows are an integral commodity and the basis of economy (Zulus used them as a currency), people do not record ownership of their cattle. They can tell which cow belongs to whom without branding or recording any information about the cow in question.

    Clearly writing-systems do not decide what is, and what is not, a civilization.



    You'd be surprised at the structural integrity and practical applications of mud as a resource for construction. By the way, did you know that Ancient Egyptians of the Old and Middle Kingdoms used mud as their main building material as well? In fact, mud bricks were used to build several of the pyramids.
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    looks like seagull posting to me. plop, plop, plop, plop.

    i have great admiration for China's heritage and its people.
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    ... just why? why not actually learn something about China? Did the CPC beat you up or something?
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    So the firearm is a meaningless invention, eh? So say the West invented everything is bollocks. Modern science is Western but uses a host of items invented by ancient Indians, the ancient Chinese, Arabs. So yeah, the West rules all haha..
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    There is an essey by Bertand Russel, in which he mentions that when French doctors went to China in the 19th century, to teach modern Western medicine to the Chinese doctors, the Chinese were horrified when the French asked for corpses to dissect and couldnt understand why the French refused to use alive prisoners who were sentenced to death.

    Kind of came to mind.

    Of course, China was closed to the outside world for over a thousand years. They chose that isolation, whilest seeing the rest of the world as savage barbarians. An arrogance which in time ironicaly made them the "barbarians" as the Europeans forced them to reopen their country.
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  14. #13  
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    This part bears discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by flushking View Post
    A) china was enslaved for 2000 years.

    1) chinese were the lowest class in mongol, manchu, xianbei, Khitan, Jurchen empires.
    genghis khan's law, killing a chinese = killing a donkey,
    sorry to mention this
    mongols, manchs, xianbei killed over 50% of chinese. (in three different times)

    The degree to which the Mongols mistreated a conquered people can be seen as proportional to how jealous they had been of that country's accomplishments. The sole claim to respect that the Mongols had over people was military might. On a cultural or scholarly level they were nothing.

    China was the first big target of Ghengis Khan. The Mongols didn't even attempt to invade Japan during his lifetime, but rather waited until Kublai Khan to make their (failed) attempt.

    It makes sense he would humiliate the Chines kings purposefully in order to make up for the cultural disdain the Chinese had for the Mongols by terrorizing the local population into respecting him.

    Quote Originally Posted by flushking View Post

    C) china was far behind Europe in history.


    1) Europe and Near East entered iron age at least 600 years earlier than china.

    china entered machine age later than Europe.
    china entered information age later than Europe.
    That could be attributed to the simple fact that Iron is/was more abundant in Europe than in China.


    3)Middle east invented writing 5000 years ago.
    The oldest chinese oracle bones is about 3500 years.
    wiki/Oracle_bone

    4) since china invented writing only about 3500 years ago,
    so the so-called 5000 years chinese civilization is a completely joke.
    Agreed. And also the writing system they did invent is a whole lot less useful than the one the Phoenicians invented, which later improved by the Greeks and then Romans into what we use today.

    The need for a separate symbol for each word makes their writing system less advanced, if you consider practical usefulness to be a measure of the value of a technology.



    6) china invented 0 machines and proposed almost 0 formulas .
    car, train, phone, radio, computer, mobile, TV, aircraft, spaceship, Typewriter, fridge, fax machine, copy machine, scanner, ATM, Vending machine, washing machine, helicopter, ........... tank, submarine, robot. - Nothing is from china.
    Nearly all of those inventions occurred in the USA. So what you are saying about China could equally be said about France, Germany, Great Britain, Russia, or Japan.

    There is exactly one country on planet Earth that succeeds at the "where stuff is invented" test.

    7) Professor Joseph Needham proved china invented paper, gun powder,
    printing, the magnetic compass.


    Needham has been criticized for his strong inclination to exaggerate Chinese technological achievements.


    example, gunpowder
    gunpowder was invented by Greek - Greek fire, its chief ingredient was saltpeter, (and Sulfur), making it an early form of gunpowder.


    glass was invented 5000 years ago.
    it was before chinese history. The world did not to wait for china to invent gunpowder.

    I must agree that China's early accomplishments often get inflated, while Europe's get downplayed.

    D) china was very backward


    till the early 1900's, if chinese against the chinese ruling class, the punishment were:

    1) killing all relatives of the person, and all relatives of the
    relatives of the person, and all relatives of the relatives of the
    relatives of the person .

    Nine familial exterminations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In a lot of parts of Eastern Europe, they still kill your family.



    2) And, they would be chopped into at least 1000 pieces.

    Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Europeans burned witches at the stake on the basis of accusations of "consorting with the devil".

    And of course, burning someone alive is just so much more civilized, right?



    Then chinese are not able to invent a computer.
    Neither was any other country on all of planet Earth except one: the USA.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    USA is a rather resourceful country.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    USA is a rather resourceful country.
    Yet we're in debt to China, run by incompetent bankers, and hated by much of the world.

    So that's going well for us.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Our economy is going better than most and sometimes seems to be the rock of the world.
    China exports more to us than ever before in the terms of material stuff
    and we export more to them in the form of ideas and services. This is mostly
    because they don't pay their workers very well.

    The USA has always been a land of innovation and ingenuity.
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    The USA is much more reliant on the rest of the world than we care to admit. It seems like we constantly consider ourselves an island in a turbulent sea, which I find arrogant and dishonest. What we REALLY are is the world's most powerful and expensive military.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    But Mr Montana, it is not really that simple. People are good and people are bad, and smart can be good and can also be bad if it is not good smart. Yes if we were all Dalai Lamas the world maybe could approach perfection, but it is like there are many who will do what China did to Tibet. Not to blame them as a nation because I know there are many sweet and wonderful people there. I have had the pleasure to meet a few. The world is complicated - what can fix it?
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    The USA is much more reliant on the rest of the world than we care to admit. It seems like we constantly consider ourselves an island in a turbulent sea, which I find arrogant and dishonest. What we REALLY are is the world's most powerful and expensive military.
    Aside from oil, what other thing does the USA rely on the rest of the world to provide us with?

    Please don't say "cheap labor", because that is what is ruining our economy right now. If we would stop using cheap workers from abroad we could fix our situation pretty quickly.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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    Supposing we don't blow ourselves up, a better chance for the survival of the human race. A community that works together is more productive. If European countries were throwing stones at each other, do you think the LHC would have ever been built? Don't you think we (I'm not a U.S. citizen BTW) as a greater community could achieve more if say NASA and ESA worked together? Was the international space station built because people let a religious mentality of patriotism kill any altruistic feeling? Do you think all Nobel Laureates living in the U.S. were born there?

    I think questions like these are rather silly:
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post

    Aside from oil, what other thing does the USA rely on the rest of the world to provide us with?
    The answer being: The rest of the world itself.


    :EDIT:

    That and Justin Bieber.
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    You are quite right. In Chinese culture the back is often what a Westerner - that is, someone raised in a western language and culture - would consider the front. Literally, the word for "back" has the same phonetic root as "north."

    If you are implying something else by the word "backwards," I suggest you make your study of history more worldly. In general, I would disregard political propaganda of all kinds in all countries. Most of your points come from these sources, and are hardly issues in quality scholarship. As for me, I find China beautifully distinguished by its general lack of religion and daringly introspective culture. The language too, is very elegant.

    What is the purpose of civilization in your mind?
    Last edited by DaBOB; July 14th, 2014 at 03:40 AM.
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    Well, the thing is, everything is about human nature...And right now, we are stand at the beginning of interstellar age, everything will be lvl up...We are going to dig deeper into our nature rather than just the basic desires as we fought for them forever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB View Post
    The language too, is very elegant.

    Elegant unless you are trying to write something using it.

    Or well, I guess the pictographs are beautiful. They have form, while the Western style of writing has function.

    But the need to memorize 3000 individual images in order to become literate has got to be hurting China's education rate. That's time the same student could have been spending learning more about science and other useful pursuits, but must instead spend grinding away on bare essentials.

    Also such a focus on memorization would tend to produce students who are only good at rote memorization, rather than analytical pursuits. It reinforces in peoples' minds the idea that memorization = intelligence, when really the hardest and most skill intensive jobs in the modern world require a different skill set from that. Nowadays, it's more about taking knowledge and knowing how to apply it, and less about having a huge internal library of prememorized formulas. The formulas change constantly, and you can always google them if you forget them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    the writing system they did invent is a whole lot less useful than the one the Phoenicians invented, which later improved by the Greeks and then Romans into what we use today.

    The need for a separate symbol for each word makes their writing system less advanced, if you consider practical usefulness to be a measure of the value of a technology.
    Chinese writing does have this advantage: that anyone in that huge multi-ethnic country regardless of dialect may pick up a newspaper and understand it. Imagine if French, German, Italian and English kids could all read the same textbook.


    ***

    If in living memory China really was still in the early iron age, what does that say about communism?
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    Chinese is an elegant and functional system for writing especially with a computer. The several thousand characters are written with six basic strokes that can be represented by the nine keys on a computer number pad. Typing in Chinese characters does not require learning to use a keyboard. You 'draw' pictures using the number pad and most characters can be written with fewer than four keystrokes because one only needs to start the character while the computer presents menus of the five most common characters that begin with that series of strokes and then one can pick the desired character from the menu. The majority of Chinese characters are both phonetic and picturegraphic. A single character may be made up of one or more simplified pictures called "radicals" that suggest the meaning of the word and another "phonetic" radical that both suggests the pronunciation and adds to the meaning. No character contains more than six radicals and most are made up of three or less. A person encountering an unfamiliar Chinese character can find clues to its meaning by dividing the character into its component radicals which are stick pictures of common things like water, man, bird, fire, metal, fish, or tree. One hundred radicals make up almost all of the Chinese characters. The character "island" for example is the picture of a bird on top of a mountain. Any word having to do with wood or trees contains the 'tree' radical, and any word involving emotion contains the 'heart' radical. The character for 'love' has the 'heart' radical at its center. Memorization is important in Chinese learning but I suspect it is for reasons that have nothing to do with character writing. Learning Chinese characters may be no more difficult than learning to spell.
    Alphabet writing is an abstraction of speech which is an abstraction of the natural world but character writing is pictures of things in the natural world so it is one abstraction closer to reality than alphabet writing. Chinese characters somehow feel more "real' than written words which is one reason for their popularity. Chinese can be written with an alphabet and Chinese children learn to read first with an alphabet and then transition to character writing. Alphabetical Chinese is confusing and tedious to read because Chinese has many, many words that are written exactly the same but pronounced with a slightly different tone when spoken and a change in tone totally changes the meaning of the word and often the meaning of the words around it. A reader must pay close attention to all the accent marks and mistaking one accent mark for another or confusing an e for an o can change the whole meaning of a sentence. Phonetic writing does not work with the Chinese language which is a symbolic language rather than grammatical so picture writing works well with Chinese. ASL, the sign language used by the deaf, is another symbolic language with a sentence structure and methods nearly identical to Chinese only the pictures are drawn with the hands rather than on paper. There is no grammatical nonsense like 'go, went, gone' in symbolic languages like Chinese or in sign language. Chinese characters also serve as a sign language among the Chinese by drawing characters in the air. Chinese picture writing and phonetic writing are processed in different parts of the brain. This is apparent in Japan where the Japanese use both forms of writing. Some Japanese find it difficult to learn phonetic writing (we call such people dyslectic ) but the same people have no unusual difficulty learning and using character writing. You don't really read Chinese...you look at the pictures.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB View Post
    The language too, is very elegant.

    Elegant unless you are trying to write something using it.

    Or well, I guess the pictographs are beautiful. They have form, while the Western style of writing has function.

    But the need to memorize 3000 individual images in order to become literate has got to be hurting China's education rate. That's time the same student could have been spending learning more about science and other useful pursuits, but must instead spend grinding away on bare essentials.

    Also such a focus on memorization would tend to produce students who are only good at rote memorization, rather than analytical pursuits. It reinforces in peoples' minds the idea that memorization = intelligence, when really the hardest and most skill intensive jobs in the modern world require a different skill set from that. Nowadays, it's more about taking knowledge and knowing how to apply it, and less about having a huge internal library of prememorized formulas. The formulas change constantly, and you can always google them if you forget them.
    As for elegance, I was referring to the language, not the writing system. The language is very old, and therefore uses thousands of ancient idioms. It's full of puns and word play. It evolved into using tones, giving up final consonants (in some Chinese languages). All of these things make it very elegant. English is elegant too, if you can understand and speak it well.

    I completely disagree with this form versus function nonsense. Chinese characters are composed of a set of, what are usually called, "radicals," and those "radicals," are composed of an even smaller set of "stroke" types. A single Chinese word is usually one to two characters in length. This means, that a single word is composed of a combination of 2 to 7 (on average) "radicals", and only about 6 different strokes types. English words are no different in this respect, if you count letters instead of radicals. What you're talking about is memorizing words and word roots. Just as in English, you must learn how to spell all the individual words, knowing their roots, suffixes, prefixes, and so on is useful, but otherwise you are simply memorizing thousands of words. No different. And, yes, if you don't know how to spell a Chinese word, you can write it phonetically, guessing at the characters used, just as you might guess whether the "i" or the "e" comes first in English.

    Simplification programs have shown no increase in literacy.They have been tried in Mainland China, but Taiwan's literacy rate is just as well using the traditional method. Though, overall, this is a difficult thing to measure

    Quote Originally Posted by Pong
    Chinese writing does have this advantage: that anyone in that huge multi-ethnic country regardless of dialect may pick up a newspaper and understand it. Imagine if French, German, Italian and English kids could all read the same textbook.


    ***

    If in living memory China really was still in the early iron age, what does that say about communism?
    It is amazing that they use the same writing system all over the country. This says something both about their culture and about their government. Though there are several languages in China, cultural and historically, the peoples of all these languages have always considered themselves as "Chinese." That is, of the same ethnicity, It's not as pretty as it sounds however. If a child grows up in Guangdong, learning to read and write will definitely require learning a new set of vocabulary and grammar than that child grew up with. Cantonese, in fact, has some of it's own local written language, that is sometimes in the local newspapers. This may be the same of the other languages of China, as in Min, Hakka, etc.

    The illiteracy in China is, however, not a reflection on their language, but on their economic and political situation.

    As for communism, I'm not sure what the point is. China never has been, or come close to being, communist. That is merely an American propaganda trick to justify actions towards China and Chinese. Unfortunately this still persists today. I'm not sure why the media is so sour towards the people of that country. It only reinforces the bitterness they have for the west.
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    Bangstrom, paragraphs!
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    As Bangstrom as brought up, the added nature of the Chinese language being pictographic, does tend to make it easier to remember than English, both phonetically and syntactically.

    Still, a good reader and writer of English will develop sense associations with words. I do not really look at English words, I look at English pictures. It's more abstract, but in this sense English writing can function the same as Chinese in the pictographic sense.

    And, Chinese his highly grammatical and highly logical, unlike Banstrom has just said. I agree that it can have symbolic advantages, but English can too, it's just easier for the Chinese reader to associate old with new, than it is for the English reader. Good writers often make allusions to past literature and writing systems in either language.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB View Post
    Still, a good reader and writer of English will develop sense associations with words. I do not really look at English words, I look at English pictures. It's more abstract, but in this sense English writing can function the same as Chinese in the pictographic sense.

    And, Chinese his highly grammatical and highly logical, unlike Banstrom has just said. I agree that it can have symbolic advantages, but English can too, it's just easier for the Chinese reader to associate old with new, than it is for the English reader. Good writers often make allusions to past literature and writing systems in either language.
    Westerners who are severely dyslectic can learn to read English by recognizing words by their length and shape with the greatest attention being paid to the upper 'skyline' of a word so English can be read in a pictographic sense like Chinese but the connections are highly abstract.

    Chinese is grammatical in the sense that the meaning of a sentence is implied in the word order especially when dealing with numbers or quantities of things. Changing word order in Chinese changes the meaning of the words much the same as it does in English but English does not adhere as strictly to the rules.
    The impression of a foreign devil like me when trying to learn Chinese is that Chinese has no grammar at all. It is almost totally lacking in any of the things we call grammar. These are things like inflected verbs, inflected tenses, genders, or indefinite articles. A sentence like, "If I knew then what I know now, would I have done what I did?" would be impossible in Chinese because Chinese lacks verbs that change with the tense but I am sure the Chinese must have an idiom from an ancient story that expresses the same idea.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bangstrom View Post
    Chinese is grammatical in the sense that the meaning of a sentence is implied in the word order especially when dealing with numbers or quantities of things. Changing word order in Chinese changes the meaning of the words much the same as it does in English but English does not adhere as strictly to the rules.
    The impression of a foreign devil like me when trying to learn Chinese is that Chinese has no grammar at all. It is almost totally lacking in any of the things we call grammar. These are things like inflected verbs, inflected tenses, genders, or indefinite articles. A sentence like, "If I knew then what I know now, would I have done what I did?" would be impossible in Chinese because Chinese lacks verbs that change with the tense but I am sure the Chinese must have an idiom from an ancient story that expresses the same idea.
    This is an unfortunate misconception of the foreigner to the language of Chinese, and as you have expressed, it is merely an impression. Both Chinese and English can have extremely sloppy grammar or extremely particular grammar, depending on the scenario and intent of the communication. It is unfair to say that Chinese does not have inflected tense, because, in fact, it does not deal with tense at all, but only aspect. The trouble you are experiencing is the nature of using western grammatical language to describe a non-western language. This is something kin to a wine taster discerning the taste of tea. It's doable, but much will be missed.

    In fact, grammar is studied very uniquely in China, and modern schools have adapted a more universal grammatical language which describes both English and Chinese. For example, the problem of verbs and adjectives. Most Chinese learners are taught that there are both of these, but it is generally more accurate to say that there are different kinds of verbs. For example, saying someone is tall, or became tall, uses the same word. Likewise, in English, we wouldn't say the phrase, "Someone became." It only makes sense when the adjective is attached, "Someone became tall." In Chinese, then, the idea of "became" is implied by the context, or in some cases, by grammatical particles or other words. The two phrases, then, in Chinese would be the same, except that the later would have the particle "le" indicating the perfected state of the verb.

    One difficulty for the second language learner, then, is knowing the various aspects of the many verbs. The perfected state of "falling" is "actively falling," not "having fallen." Whereas, the perfected state of "arriving," is "having arrived," not "arriving." This causes much confusion to the learner, especially when trying to express English tense. Listen to to the grammar of a native Chinese or Thai speaker speaking broken English, and you will here then use words like "already" a lot, to imply perfection, and they will never inflect their verbs. They also may refer to men and women as only "he" or only "she," as many language do not distinguish gender.

    The sentence example you have given is perfectly doable in Chinese, and I would give you an example, except that the computer I am on right now does not support Chinese (at work). I fact, that is a particularly easy phrase. Try these more simple phrases instead.

    "It's raining." (implying that it wasn't a moment ago)
    "It rained." (yesterday)
    "It is no longer raining." (but it was a moment ago)
    "It will rain." (tomorrow)
    "I will have completed the book by lunchtime." (tomorrow)
    "We are now eating." (right now)
    "I have eaten." (just now)

    Some contain tense, some aspect. Some both. Some sentences sound the same and their meaning is implied via context. This is the same in English, however. "It rained," though we know it is in the past, we do not know when in the past. This information is supplied by context, or asked.

    Language is a method of expression, and when the thing to be expressed must needs be expressed, the people will find the means to do it. Grammar are the rules grammarians and linguists develop to explain language. Unlike mathematics, however, these rules are hardly universal, and unfortunately constrain the learner of a second language.
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    I blame Taoism and Confusious.

    Taoism is for the most part pure nonsense, and Confusious also made much nonses but most devestating is the strict hierarchy of society, even down to family and friends, which leads to less criticism of a superior which is fatal for a good economy and healthy society.
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    Taoism and Confucianism are often opposites so to dismiss both as nonsense leaves little of anything that makes sense. The same intellectual divides exist in Western societies but under different names so we are all in the same boatload of nonsense. In the USA the present divide between liberals and conservatives is wrecking our education, economy, and health and making the government dysfunctional. Liberals in the USA could generally be called Taoists and conservatives could be called Confucianists with some notable exceptions. American conservatives, for example, don't much care for funding public education which a Confucianist would support.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HexHammer View Post
    I blame Taoism and Confusious.

    Taoism is for the most part pure nonsense, and Confusious also made much nonses but most devestating is the strict hierarchy of society, even down to family and friends, which leads to less criticism of a superior which is fatal for a good economy and healthy society.
    Yep, and Plato and Aristotle were responsible for the Dark Ages.

    I do, however, agree that attempting to understand popular English translations of either of these schools of thought, Confucian and Daoist texts, without understanding of the translation's inaccuracies is futile.

    bangstrom, Chan Buddhism (or Zen) can be rightly considered an amalgamation of Cunfucian, Daoist, and Buddhist philosophies. And, there are theories that Buddhism could have been developed via the teachings of Zhuangzi, who may have travelled to India for some time. This is speculative though. Yet, their ideas are not far off.
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    "If I knew then what I know now, would I have done what I did?"

    如果现在知道我以前知道的,那么我是否做我以前做的?(This is an extremely literal translation. I'm sure a native would do much better. Unfortunately, there is no tense in this sentence, but only aspect. I suppose "knew" and "know" and "done" and "did" indicate tense. But, because it is a conditional sentence the tense is only added for the comfort of the English speaker and listener, and is entirely unnecessary information, as time is already indicated. Time is indicated with time words. This makes the sentence very literally translatable into Chinese.)


    "It's raining." (implying that it wasn't a moment ago)
    下雨了

    "It rained." (yesterday, but it's not raining now)
    (昨天)下了雨

    "It is no longer raining." (but it was a moment ago)
    下了雨

    "It will rain." (tomorrow)
    (明天)就要下雨

    "I will have completed the book by lunchtime." (tomorrow)
    (明天)当午饭时,这本书我就要看完。

    "We are now eating." (right now)
    吃了 or 吃饭了

    "I have eaten." (just now)
    吃了 or 吃了饭 (in response to 吃饭了没有?)

    "When you're finished with that game, give me a hand."
    你玩了,就帮我吧。 (look how short that is!!)
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    Quote Originally Posted by flushking View Post
    A) china was enslaved for 2000 years.

    1) chinese were the lowest class in mongol, manchu, xianbei, Khitan, Jurchen empires.
    genghis khan's law, killing a chinese = killing a donkey,
    sorry to mention this
    mongols, manchs, xianbei killed over 50% of chinese. (in three different times)

    2)jurchen took two chinese kings, and forced them walk naked on the streets.
    chinese kings had to call the kings of jurchen as uncle for about 100 years.

    Men of chinese royal family were sold into slavery in exchange for horses with a ratio of ten men for one horse.
    wiki/Jingkang_Incident

    3) chinese king had to call the Khan of Khitan as father, grandfather
    wiki/Later_Jin_Dynasty

    4)other two chinese kings of chinese were also taken by foreigners as slaves.
    /wiki/Emperor_Huai_of_Jin


    5) manchus ruled china for 300 years till 1911.
    the population rate was 100,000,000 chinese VS1.000.000 manchus.


    6)then japan ruled 2/3 of china since 1937-1945( including the chinese captial), and killed over 30,000,000 chinese.

    Russia and USA saved china , Otherwise china should ruled by japan now.



    B) china was very poor

    1) In the past 2000 years.
    There were more than 110 great starvation in china, people even had to eat people to stay alive.

    2) In 1959-1961. . there are 30,000,000 chinese died in starvation.
    Great Chinese Famine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    3) china declares china can feed itself, but china had to import a lot of grains from
    north America every year.



    4) in 1960's, chinese defence minister Peng Dehui said many chinese had no pants to wear.



    5) in chinese ming empire - general Lu Xiangsheng said that, many chinese soldier had no pants to wear.


    6)in WWII, chinese soldiers still wear grass shoes.
    img.haokanbu.com/img/blog/684f8084eec24adbae0d1f8f3e7cfa54.jpeg



    C) china was far behind Europe in history.


    1) Europe and Near East entered iron age at least 600 years earlier than china.

    china entered machine age later than Europe.
    china entered information age later than Europe.


    2) when European and middle east people built stone houses, chinese king lived in a mud palace.
    Egypt built Pyramids. Great Pyramid of Giza 4500 years ago.
    Erlitou, The capital of china(2100 BC – 1600 BC) was built by mud.


    3)Middle east invented writing 5000 years ago.
    The oldest chinese oracle bones is about 3500 years.
    wiki/Oracle_bone

    4) since china invented writing only about 3500 years ago,
    so the so-called 5000 years chinese civilization is a completely joke.


    5) since china entered Iron age 600 years later than Europe and Near East,
    so china has a much shorter civilization.

    At the time, European used iron tools, chinese used primitive tools.
    /wiki/Iron_Age

    6) china invented 0 machines and proposed almost 0 formulas .
    car, train, phone, radio, computer, mobile, TV, aircraft, spaceship, Typewriter, fridge, fax machine, copy machine, scanner, ATM, Vending machine, washing machine, helicopter, ........... tank, submarine, robot. - Nothing is from china.



    7) Professor Joseph Needham proved china invented paper, gun powder,
    printing, the magnetic compass.


    Needham has been criticized for his strong inclination to exaggerate Chinese technological achievements.


    example, gunpowder
    gunpowder was invented by Greek - Greek fire, its chief ingredient was saltpeter, (and Sulfur), making it an early form of gunpowder.


    glass was invented 5000 years ago.
    it was before chinese history. The world did not to wait for china to invent gunpowder.


    D) china was very backward


    till the early 1900's, if chinese against the chinese ruling class, the punishment were:

    1) killing all relatives of the person, and all relatives of the
    relatives of the person, and all relatives of the relatives of the
    relatives of the person .

    Nine familial exterminations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    2) And, they would be chopped into at least 1000 pieces.

    Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    E) without the west influence, china will never enter the computer age.

    1) Chinese never invented alphabet, chinese use hieroglyphs.

    so china is not able to invent a chinese keyboard.
    Then chinese are not able to invent a computer.

    2) china never invent punctuation,
    The first chinesse book to be printed with punctuation was the History of Chinese Philosophy by Hu Shi.(1891-1962)
    you're an idiot..

    1 - Same can apply to many European countries in some form. The Netherlands was "enslaved" for centuries before it became a nation-state in its own right. Spain also, Greece, etc.

    2 - er...so what? Again, similar to Europe.

    3 - Who cares again? similar to Europe.

    4 - Again, similar to Europe. And not just Europe, but worldwide. Humilating a king discredits a country...

    5 - So a smaller ruling class has never ruled a country ever before or since in human history, got it..

    6 - Hmmmm.....is this why in the same war, France got invaded by Germany? I suppose military superiority has to count for things, doesn't it?

    7 - Iron Age? This was independent in most parts of the world. Information age? Well Americans invented ICT, what do you expect? Doesn't mean all future ICT advances can or will be American.
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    I think the OP has completed his cause, and moved on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bangstrom View Post
    Taoism and Confucianism are often opposites so to dismiss both as nonsense leaves little of anything that makes sense. The same intellectual divides exist in Western societies but under different names so we are all in the same boatload of nonsense. In the USA the present divide between liberals and conservatives is wrecking our education, economy, and health and making the government dysfunctional. Liberals in the USA could generally be called Taoists and conservatives could be called Confucianists with some notable exceptions. American conservatives, for example, don't much care for funding public education which a Confucianist would support.
    Old Chinese philosophy can hardly be compared to modern politics in USA, I think you make up random stuff here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB View Post
    "If I knew then what I know now, would I have done what I did?"

    如果现在知道我以前知道的,那么我是否做我以前做的?(This is an extremely literal translation. I'm sure a native would do much better. Unfortunately, there is no tense in this sentence, but only aspect. I suppose "knew" and "know" and "done" and "did" indicate tense. But, because it is a conditional sentence the tense is only added for the comfort of the English speaker and listener, and is entirely unnecessary information, as time is already indicated. Time is indicated with time words. This makes the sentence very literally translatable into Chinese.)


    "It's raining." (implying that it wasn't a moment ago)
    下雨了

    "It rained." (yesterday, but it's not raining now)
    (昨天)下了雨

    "It is no longer raining." (but it was a moment ago)
    下了雨

    "It will rain." (tomorrow)
    (明天)就要下雨

    "I will have completed the book by lunchtime." (tomorrow)
    (明天)当午饭时,这本书我就要看完。

    "We are now eating." (right now)
    吃了 or 吃饭了

    "I have eaten." (just now)
    吃了 or 吃了饭 (in response to 吃饭了没有?)

    "When you're finished with that game, give me a hand."
    你玩了,就帮我吧。 (look how short that is!!)
    I agree that using one language to explain another can lead to many misunderstandings.

    Your translation of my sentence into Chinese comes closer to the literal English than I thought possible but I suspect the Chinese also have some idiom like,"Burned once, twice shy." to expresses the same idea. You said of the translation that, "But, because it is a conditional sentence the tense is only added for the comfort of the English speaker and listener, and is entirely unnecessary information, as time is already indicated."

    I am wondering if the same can be also said for some of the shorter translations. The use of the time particle "le" appears more frequently than I would expect so why so many "le's"? The use of "le" in the translations almost looks like the English use of "ed" to indicate past tense.

    If you ask an English speaker to change the tense of a sentence, they will do so primarily by changing the verb. We are taught that conjugating verbs is "grammar" without ever considering that the time words are "grammar" too and that verb tenses are redundant when time words are used. This leads to the naive impression that Chinese has no grammar. A grammarian would disagree but a common perception is that, if you don't conjugate the verb, you haven't done grammar.

    Alan Watts says Buddhism is Hinduism simplified for export.
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    The "le" is very often confused with "ed," but that is not it at all. Notice the first sentence, "It is raining." The particle "le" and others like "zheng zai" (in the process), "zhe" (in the process), and "guo" (have experienced), indicate the states of the actions, not the time frame. You could be talking of a story in the past, as though in the present, and still use "le," or others. Also, verb compliments indicate the same "perfected" state as "le," but add a specific type of perfection. "Kan (de) jian" (I look and can see), "kan dao" (I see it now), "kan wan" (I am done looking/reading it), "kan guo" (I've read it before). These are varying types of "perfected" states.

    In Classical Chinese the particle "le" did not exist, but another word did, and indicated something like "and that's final." Where as another particle "ye," would indicate a constant thing, like a general principle or definition (as in a dictionary).

    I agree that verb conjugation is cumbersome, but most native speakers don't even think about it (except maybe when learning to spell). It's actually a great analogy for people calling the Chinese writing system cumbersome. Learning English, Japanese, or other tense languages are extremely painful processes compared to learning Chinese, in that respect.

    Hmm... I would have to disagree with Alan on that. But I don't know the context. Then again, I'm not thinking of Buddhism as a religion here, which I know little about, except that they like to wear robes. As a philosophy, I don't see how it has any relation to Hinduism, except artistically, and maybe linguistically. Buddhist in Tibet, Thailand, or China, or Japan probably aren't Hindu.
    Last edited by DaBOB; July 22nd, 2014 at 01:29 PM. Reason: typos, everywhere!
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