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Thread: Who does the words those and them refer to?

  1. #1 Who does the words those and them refer to? 
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    And how can they provide for the public needs, without alienating the individual property of those who are forced to contribute to them? "

    Would you possibly tell me what the following means?

    "
    alienating "the individual property of "those who are forced to contribute to them"


    The first and most important rule of legitimate or popular g : GMAT Reading Comprehension (RC)


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    ~ or so 'they' say..


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    Quote Originally Posted by nima_persian View Post
    And how can they provide for the public needs, without alienating the individual property of those who are forced to contribute to them? "

    Would you possibly tell me what the following means?

    "
    alienating "the individual property of "those who are forced to contribute to them"


    The first and most important rule of legitimate or popular g : GMAT Reading Comprehension (RC)
    "Those" refers to the taxpayers who are force to contribute. "Them" refers to the public needs.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    But ask yourself , without taxes how would roads, bridges, public hospitals, police, military, dams, garbage pick up, sewage disposal and on and on be made and maintained.
    Last edited by cosmictraveler; April 3rd, 2014 at 12:02 PM.
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    And how can they provide for the public needs, without alienating the individual property of those (people) who are forced to contribute to them?

    Those refers to the "they" in the first part, them refers to "public needs".

    Those is quite often used in this way. Though it can make you look twice if those refers to an unspecified "they" rather than to items or people. Or it can be left entirely out in many instances. "Those wishing to deposit funds should queue here. Those wishing to withdraw, please go over there."

    And it's quite common to leave out nouns for all sorts of constructions.

    For example,
    We need to separate these T shirts by colour. Put red at the front and yellow at the back.

    It's quite legitimate not to say the red shirts here and the yellow shirts there, or the red ones here and the yellow ones there.
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  7. #6  
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    Thank you so much for your best supports.

    Who can tell me what "alienating" means here? and what is a synonym for it?
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    Alienating as used here means separating, or taking away from, or depriving someone of the use of something.

    It can be temporary as when armed forces commandeer private buildings for military purposes for a while. More often it's permanent, like imposing a tax or a duty or a levy which means you have to pay money. Quite often it can involve a payment if private land or buildings are compulsorily purchased for government purposes, like building/ widening roads or bridges or hospitals.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Let's take a look at the preceding sentence, along with the one quoted above.

    "But can men be forced to defend the liberty of any one among them, without trespassing on that of others? And how can they provide for the public needs, without alienating the individual property of those who are forced to contribute to them? "

    There four different categories of people being discussed here, and the author is not entirely clear about which ones he is referring to at any point.

    In the first sentence there are the "men" (category 1) who are being forced to defend someone else's liberty. Then we have the person, the one among them (category 2) whose liberty is being defended. Then we have the "others" whose liberty may be trespassed upon (category 3). Then since the sentence is in passive voice, there is some other person or persons (category 4) who are doing the forcing.

    Just to take an example, say category 1 is the taxpayer who is forced to pay for a police force. Category 2 is the potential crime victim whose liberty is being defended. Category 3 is also the taxpayer, because his private property is being taken to make all this possible. Category 4 would be the voters and legislators who pass the law that makes this mandatory. But the way the first sentence is written, it is the category 1 persons who seem to be the ones trespassing on the rights of the category 3, but I think the author meant that category 4 is trespassing on the rights of category 3.

    Then in the second sentence, "they" appears to be, again, category 1 of the previous sentence because they are the ones providing for the public needs. But since "they" are also the people who are potentially alienating individual property, the author seems to be referring to the category 4 people as the subject of the second sentence.

    So all this is rather confusing from the standpoint of grammatical construction, but it kind of makes sense if you realize that in a democracy the same people making the rules are also the people who have to live by the rules.
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    Would anybody kindly elaborate the difference or similarities between these?

    General society

    Civil societies





    Source:


    http://gmatclub.com/forum/the-first-...-g-110284.html
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    I think that by a general society Rousseau just means people conducting trade or dealing with each other is a selfish or self-serving manner. A civil society would be one where people work together for a common purpose. Here is a Wikipedia article that discusses the concept of a civil society.
    Civil society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    In this article, Rousseau is said to be a critic of civil societies. If you find this confusing, so do I.
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  12. #11  
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    Would you tell me what forced to contribute to them? " means? and what does contribute means here? or who wants to contribute?

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    Quote Originally Posted by nima_persian View Post
    Would you tell me what forced to contribute to them? " means? and what does contribute means here? or who wants to contribute?

    It could mean paying taxes. If you pay taxes, it is not optional. You are being forced to contribute the money. Another example might be a military draft, where people are forced to serve in the army.

    An example of people who want to contribute would be those who contribute money to charity, or who volunteer their time to some civic organization and serve without pay.
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    Depriving the personal belongings of the people who are urged to contribute to government.

    Have I correctly explaining what you have taught me?





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    Quote Originally Posted by nima_persian View Post

    Depriving the personal belongings of the people who are urged to contribute to government.

    Have I correctly explaining what you have taught me?





    I wouldn't use the word "urged." It is a lot stronger than that. For example, if you don't pay your property taxes, the government will evict you, and take your home from you by force. And, it isn't just personal belongings. In the case of a military draft, you are required to contribute your valuable time, and possibly even your life in event of a war. These are the kinds of things Rousseau was worried about.
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  16. #15  
    not ADM!N grmpysmrf's Avatar
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    "Forced" my be too strong of a descriptor. "obliged" or "obligated" may be better synonyms
    Where are you from Nima? are we doing your homework for you?
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    Depriving the personal belongings of the people who are forced to contribute to government.


    Thank you very much. Now, is it right?





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    Quote Originally Posted by nima_persian View Post
    Depriving the personal belongings of the people who are forced to contribute to government.


    Thank you very much. Now, is it right?
    Yes, I agree with that.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nima_persian View Post
    Depriving the personal belongings of the people who are forced to contribute to government.


    Thank you very much. Now, is it right?
    Yes, I agree with that.
    I disagree to an extent. only in certain circumstances do they take your personal belongings (most often it's money they take) but then again they do so when you are delinquent on your bill. So really it's them helping you sell your stuff to settle your debt.

    I think Obligated is a better word choice than "forced"
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nima_persian View Post
    Depriving the personal belongings of the people who are forced to contribute to government.


    Thank you very much. Now, is it right?
    Yes, I agree with that.
    I disagree to an extent. only in certain circumstances do they take your personal belongings (most often it's money they take) but then again they do so when you are delinquent on your bill. So really it's them helping you sell your stuff to settle your debt.

    I think Obligated is a better word choice than "forced"
    Sure, if it makes you feel better.
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  21. #20  
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    Re: general society vrs civil society. I woud think 'general society" would be just the whole of a nation, all the people who happen to be in contact with each other, living in the same area. A "civil society' would be a voluntary association. It might be a political party, a trade union or the society for prevention of cruelty to children, or the boy scouts, or a group of like professionals such as the AMA (american medical association).

    All such voluntary associations will have some sort of dues or obligatory contribution required from each member. It is required because if you don'tpay your dues then you are not a member of the society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by grmpysmrf View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nima_persian View Post
    Depriving the personal belongings of the people who are forced to contribute to government.


    Thank you very much. Now, is it right?
    Yes, I agree with that.
    I disagree to an extent. only in certain circumstances do they take your personal belongings (most often it's money they take) but then again they do so when you are delinquent on your bill. So really it's them helping you sell your stuff to settle your debt.

    I think Obligated is a better word choice than "forced"
    Sure, if it makes you feel better.
    Yeah, but only a little bit.
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