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Thread: The "meaning" of death.

  1. #101  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Probably overall height, length, max and min and average circumference of the overall cow and of various things like head belly, hooves and stuff. Maybe more importantly to me, how patient the cow may be. I don't see how it fits the topic
    It fits the topic because it's an illustration of how "the outcome of any experiment it going to depend on what the experimenters are looking for".
    You can't tell the colour of a cow if you only use a tape measure.
    THAT is how the outcome is "dependent" on "what experimenters are looking for".

    So, get the points Duck? I know how to deal with Bull.
    And you're dishing out plenty here: you have still not explained how delayed choice, Bell's theorem or Schroedinger's cat support your "idea".
    So are we to assume that you're flailing and can't come up with any rationale?
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  2. #102  
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    For Flick:


    If you are a poet, you will see clearly that there is a cloud floating in this sheet of paper. Without a cloud, there will be no rain; without rain, the trees cannot grow; and without trees, we cannot make paper. The cloud is essential for the paper to exist. If the cloud is not here, the sheet of paper cannot be here either. So we can say that the cloud and the paper inter-are. “Interbeing” is a word that is not in the dictionary yet, but if we combine the prefix “inter-” with the verb “to be,” we have a new verb, inter-be.

    If we look into this sheet of paper even more deeply, we can see the sunshine in it. If the sunshine is not there, the forest cannot grow. In fact, nothing can grow. Even we cannot grow without sunshine. And so, we know that the sunshine is also in this sheet of paper. The paper and the sunshine inter-are. And if we continue to look, we can see the logger who cut the tree and brought it to the mill to be transformed into paper. And we see the wheat. We now the logger cannot exist without his daily bread, and therefore the wheat that became his bread is also in this sheet of paper. And the logger’s father and mother are in it too. When we look in this way, we see that without all of these things, this sheet of paper cannot exist.

    Looking even more deeply, we can see we are in it too. This is not difficult to see, because when we look at a sheet of paper, the sheet of paper is part of our perception. Your mind is in here and mine is also. So we can say that everything is in here with this sheet of paper. You cannot point out one thing that is not here-time, space, the earth, the rain, the minerals in the soil, the sunshine, the cloud, the river, the heat. Everything co-exists with this sheet of paper. That is why I think the word inter-be should be in the dictionary. “To be” is to inter-be. You cannot just be by yourself alone. You have to inter-be with every other thing. This sheet of paper is, because everything else is.

    Suppose we try to return one of the elements to its source. Suppose we return the sunshine to the sun. Do you think that this sheet of paper will be possible? No, without sunshine nothing can be. And if we return the logger to his mother, then we have no sheet of paper either. The fact is that this sheet of paper is made up only of “non-paper elements.” And if we return these non-paper elements to their sources, then there can be no paper at all. Without “non-paper elements,” like mind, logger, sunshine and so on, there will be no paper. As thin as this sheet of paper is, it contains everything in the universe in it.
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  3. #103  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    “To be” is to inter-be.

    So why add another word?

    As thin as this sheet of paper is, it contains everything in the universe in it.
    Yeah?
    Where's Pluto? Epsilon Eridani? My cat?
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  4. #104  
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    Whoa, man. Like, heavy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post


    Whoa, man. Like, heavy.
    I can write poetry too if you want. Probably does not suit a science topic in general, but I could maybe figure out how to write science poetry. Does anyone have examples of good science poetry? Something like a complicated molecule has multidimensional capacities of delimiting potentialities? - I may learn to like this! Thanks Flick!! :-) - Doesn't mean I won't continue studying actual science like in NASA and NIST. I do like poetry though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByAccident13_7 View Post
    Does anyone have any thoughts?!
    I think the only claim to immortality a person can have is through their children.
    Disagree.

    Art.
    Music.
    Science.
    A place in History

    All make SOME people, in a sense immortal.
    But you are contradicting yourself, what about the physical part? When a person dies one part goes to the earth (the physical part) and the other part, I do not know what you want to call it, goes to memory.
    Not at all. They physical part of their work is still very much a physical force, on paper, canvas, sculpture, written music, published papers and in law and in history books. SO the may not be there but they have left physical works that are still very alive.
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    We are made of star stuff. , and I credit that to Carl Sagan.. and the original 'Cosmos' series.. The man was inspiring to many..
    That as 'Flick Montana' has said.. I agree. To the child who asked 'Why do we die ?' I might offer.. " That the cell reproduction throughout our body is very good at over time replacing old dysfunctional cells. As we reach into our old age the bodies ability to replace is outstripped by old parts.. failing to reproduce new cells leads to the failure of vital functions and death is the end result.
    Death could be described as different in almost every case.. but the end result is the same..
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    1 If there's a cow in a field and I give you a tape measure, what can you tell me about that cow as a result of using the tape measure only?
    Oh! This is a fun question... Okay... so..

    1. The distance between me and the cow, when I am standing at any designated point.
    2. The circumferences of the cow (as said by Mayfow)
    3. Height, length, width
    4. The length of it's tongue
    5. The circumference of it's udders
    6. The length of it's front legs in proportion to it's back legs
    7. The length and average circumference of it's neck
    8. The length and average circumference of it's snout
    9. The smell of the cow at close range
    10. I could squirt some milk across the ground and use it to measure the distance the milk shot from the udder (based on the spray-pattern on the dirt, assuming it's a dry day and the cow is in a dry field)
    11. The length of each nipple on the udder
    11. The taste of cow skin
    12. The length and width height of its hooves
    13. The depth of the concave in it's hooves
    14. The distance between it's two front legs
    15. The distance between it's two back legs
    16. The distance between the front and back legs

    That is assuming that I know what a tape measure is used for (and I'm sure Daffy is quick to assume that I do not know... because I'm really just assuming how someone uses it, I really have no idea)

    Further...

    14. I could use this tape measure as a herding device, a sharp whip to try and drive this cow to a stall (assuming this field is near a place where cows have once been bred, or where cows are currently breeding that this cow could have escaped from, or that you are actually talking about a field that exists within the property lines owned by a farmer who owns a cow that is in the aforementioned field, but I digress...)
    15. Once having assured that this cow is safely inside the pen with few options for escape (ALSO assuming that this cow is probably not happy about being in the pen, and thus seeking a means for escape), I could feed and water the cow until I come up with other ideas for the tape measure and the cow.

    Sorry, that's all I have for now.

    But, in short, one can see that there are a lot of assumptions to be made, because this question clearly states "a tape measure only." That is, when one says "as the result of using a tape measure only," we are first creating the assumption that using our bodies - our arms, or our shoulder muscles, or our legs, or our eyes, or our sense of taste, or our sense of smell, or the nerves allow the appropriate organs and our brain to communicate - is already implied in the question... hmmm.
    Last edited by ByAccident13_7; April 8th, 2014 at 01:13 AM.
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  9. #109  
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    I don't think the taste of cow skin (POINT 11) can be measured with a tape measure, otherwise it all seems reasonable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByAccident13_7 View Post
    Does anyone have any thoughts?!
    I think the only claim to immortality a person can have is through their children.
    Disagree.

    Art.
    Music.
    Science.
    A place in History

    All make SOME people, in a sense immortal.
    But you are contradicting yourself, what about the physical part? When a person dies one part goes to the earth (the physical part) and the other part, I do not know what you want to call it, goes to memory.
    Not at all. They physical part of their work is still very much a physical force, on paper, canvas, sculpture, written music, published papers and in law and in history books. SO the may not be there but they have left physical works that are still very alive.
    However you want to divide the remains of a dead body is not important, important is you have a body and the only way to express memory is through your own body. the reason death has entered ones body is because the body is no more able to animate. Since we have as science dictates only change, the body breaks down into the different components after death and the energies returns to it's primal states. I think you need a physical body to adequately address immortality, don't you think?
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  12. #112  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    the reason death has entered ones body is because the body is no more able to animate.
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  13. #113  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    the reason death has entered ones body is because the body is no more able to animate.
    [Meme deleted for cleaner outline]

    An organism dies when its vital processes (e.g. metabolism) permanently cease and its homeostasis is irreversibly disrupted.
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    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  14. #114  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mayflow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    That's well outside the realm of science.
    As is the entire topic.
    I don't know. I think death has important scientific significance. I wouldn't use the word "meaning", but there is a cycle which must be perpetuated and death is an integral part of that cycle. If a child were to ask, "Why do we die?" I wouldn't offer them some philosophical, meandering thought about the spirituality of it all. I would tell them that we die so generations after us can live. The stuff which makes us up will, eventually, make up another organism. And, some day, that which used to be us may travel across the universe and form a new planet or star. It's sort of poetic, for science.
    Watch Lion King recently by any chance?
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  15. #115  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByAccident13_7 View Post
    Does anyone have any thoughts?!
    I think the only claim to immortality a person can have is through their children.
    Disagree.

    Art.
    Music.
    Science.
    A place in History

    All make SOME people, in a sense immortal.
    But you are contradicting yourself, what about the physical part? When a person dies one part goes to the earth (the physical part) and the other part, I do not know what you want to call it, goes to memory.
    Not at all. They physical part of their work is still very much a physical force, on paper, canvas, sculpture, written music, published papers and in law and in history books. SO the may not be there but they have left physical works that are still very alive.
    However you want to divide the remains of a dead body is not important, important is you have a body and the only way to express memory is through your own body. the reason death has entered ones body is because the body is no more able to animate. Since we have as science dictates only change, the body breaks down into the different components after death and the energies returns to it's primal states. I think you need a physical body to adequately address immortality, don't you think?
    You missed my point entirely!
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    Flick. What about the concept of biological immortality? We have a few examples in nature where a creature can effectively stay alive "for" what might be "ever". An example of this would be the Turritopsis Dohrnii - a jellyfish with a sort of "Benjamin Button" ability to reverse its biological age and is "the only known animal to completely capable of reverting back to a sexually immature state" of it's life.

    Turritopsis dohrnii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are various other genus of creatures listed here that exhibit a supposed "immortality": Biological immortality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It's hard for me to phrase this question properly, what I would like to ask you this: What influence could biological immortality have on us, if it is a concept only present in creatures that are small and distant, with an almost forgettable and subtle impact on the ecosystem (and us) - what purpose would immortality serve the planet if the creatures who are capable of being supposedly "immortal" are not conscious as we know it?

    Why must the only "conscious" creatures on this planet (as we know it) die, as well? Is it that our bodies and systems are too complex to evolve a regenerative response to a degenerative life (surely that is the biggest reason; I'm just asking questions to spark ideas).

    What is it that these little creatures offer the ecosystem that is so important that they needed to survive indefinitely, adapting very effective regenerative abilities, that we cannot share, regardless if our brain is complex enough to give us "free will" and therefore give us greater and more imminent impact on the planet?

    We live, and therefore we must die. Hmmmm.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dan hunter View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByAccident13_7 View Post
    Does anyone have any thoughts?!
    I think the only claim to immortality a person can have is through their children.
    Disagree.

    Art.
    Music.
    Science.
    A place in History

    All make SOME people, in a sense immortal.
    But you are contradicting yourself, what about the physical part? When a person dies one part goes to the earth (the physical part) and the other part, I do not know what you want to call it, goes to memory.
    Not at all. They physical part of their work is still very much a physical force, on paper, canvas, sculpture, written music, published papers and in law and in history books. SO the may not be there but they have left physical works that are still very alive.
    However you want to divide the remains of a dead body is not important, important is you have a body and the only way to express memory is through your own body. the reason death has entered ones body is because the body is no more able to animate. Since we have as science dictates only change, the body breaks down into the different components after death and the energies returns to it's primal states. I think you need a physical body to adequately address immortality, don't you think?
    You missed my point entirely!
    I find your point very interesting, I am sorry you think I missed it, if you still have the interest I would like to know what I missed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByAccident13_7 View Post
    Flick. What about the concept of biological immortality? We have a few examples in nature where a creature can effectively stay alive "for" what might be "ever". An example of this would be the Turritopsis Dohrnii - a jellyfish with a sort of "Benjamin Button" ability to reverse its biological age and is "the only known animal to completely capable of reverting back to a sexually immature state" of it's life.

    Turritopsis dohrnii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are various other genus of creatures listed here that exhibit a supposed "immortality": Biological immortality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It's hard for me to phrase this question properly, what I would like to ask you this: What influence could biological immortality have on us, if it is a concept only present in creatures that are small and distant, with an almost forgettable and subtle impact on the ecosystem (and us) - what purpose would immortality serve the planet if the creatures who are capable of being supposedly "immortal" are not conscious as we know it?

    Why must the only "conscious" creatures on this planet (as we know it) die, as well? Is it that our bodies and systems are too complex to evolve a regenerative response to a degenerative life (surely that is the biggest reason; I'm just asking questions to spark ideas).

    What is it that these little creatures offer the ecosystem that is so important that they needed to survive indefinitely, adapting very effective regenerative abilities, that we cannot share, regardless if our brain is complex enough to give us "free will" and therefore give us greater and more imminent impact on the planet?

    We live, and therefore we must die. Hmmmm.....
    I have no way of proving biological immortality exist, except in the offspring of oneself, yet I fully believe everything that one can think exist.
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  19. #119  
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    Quote Originally Posted by ByAccident13_7 View Post
    Flick. What about the concept of biological immortality? We have a few examples in nature where a creature can effectively stay alive "for" what might be "ever". An example of this would be the Turritopsis Dohrnii - a jellyfish with a sort of "Benjamin Button" ability to reverse its biological age and is "the only known animal to completely capable of reverting back to a sexually immature state" of it's life.

    Turritopsis dohrnii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are various other genus of creatures listed here that exhibit a supposed "immortality": Biological immortality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I wish to note that the concept of biological immortality is a theoretical one, as the organisms are not invulnerable.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByAccident13_7 View Post
    Flick. What about the concept of biological immortality? We have a few examples in nature where a creature can effectively stay alive "for" what might be "ever". An example of this would be the Turritopsis Dohrnii - a jellyfish with a sort of "Benjamin Button" ability to reverse its biological age and is "the only known animal to completely capable of reverting back to a sexually immature state" of it's life.

    Turritopsis dohrnii - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There are various other genus of creatures listed here that exhibit a supposed "immortality": Biological immortality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I wish to note that the concept of biological immortality is a theoretical one, as the organisms are not invulnerable.
    Duly noted.
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  21. #121  
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    People are looking at it wrong.

    We were lucky not to exist, then something called life happens. And suddenly you are trapped in an organic prison filled with pain receptors. Both mentally and physically you are forced to live out this life of immense pain and suffering chasing happiness impossible to achieve, oh and if you do achieve it - it is very temporary and is robbed from you again anyway.

    Then death comes and frees you from this torment.

    If anyone is the villain here, it is life.

    Not to sound like a bitter, nihilistic misantrophe. Oh wait
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    Sorry Raziell.....to me...life is good and bad times, joy and sorrow....and laughter and tears.....first and last experience, GROWTH not just physically but mentally!

    I love my life.

    When I am dead....I won't know anything....
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    When I am dead....I won't know anything....
    Some of the posters here have decided not to wait until they're dead before they achieve that.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    When I am dead....I won't know anything....
    Some of the posters here have decided not to wait until they're dead before they achieve that.

    *laughing*

    but will you weep and mourn me....

    ok

    I am talking to Sir Ducky

    Don't have too much Scotch
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  25. #125  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    but will you weep and mourn me....
    You're allowed to dream...

    Don't have too much Scotch
    Don't touch the stuff, it disagrees with me. Violently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell View Post
    People are looking at it wrong.

    We were lucky not to exist, then something called life happens. And suddenly you are trapped in an organic prison filled with pain receptors. Both mentally and physically you are forced to live out this life of immense pain and suffering chasing happiness impossible to achieve, oh and if you do achieve it - it is very temporary and is robbed from you again anyway.

    Then death comes and frees you from this torment.

    If anyone is the villain here, it is life.

    Not to sound like a bitter, nihilistic misantrophe. Oh wait
    I think you need to go back to the drawing board, this time you need to draw a picture about life that you like, and live it.
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    [QUOTE=Dywyddyr;552870]
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    but will you weep and mourn me....
    You're allowed to dream...

    I am very very hurt. I think I will take my feeling on a walk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    When I am dead....I won't know anything....
    Some of the posters here have decided not to wait until they're dead before they achieve that.

    *laughing*

    but will you weep and mourn me....

    ok

    I am talking to Sir Ducky

    Don't have too much Scotch
    We will, as long as you come back to the forum and tell us that you're gone.
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  29. #129  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    but will you weep and mourn me....
    You're allowed to dream...

    Don't have too much Scotch
    Don't touch the stuff, it disagrees with me. Violently.
    ~ I have witnessed a few disagreeing with the Genius Duck which is a great entertainment..
    and to 'Babe' don't you dare check out early.. who else is going to calm the madness here..
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    Quote Originally Posted by astromark View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    but will you weep and mourn me....
    You're allowed to dream...

    Don't have too much Scotch
    Don't touch the stuff, it disagrees with me. Violently.
    ~ I have witnessed a few disagreeing with the Genius Duck which is a great entertainment..
    and to 'Babe' don't you dare check out early.. who else is going to calm the madness here..
    AWWWW that was really sweet!!! *BIG SMOOCH* no tongue, and I still am gonna have a little SIR DUCKY L'ORANGE!!!


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    Dywyddyr - This reminds me of you in a joking way.

    Victor Meldrew - "I don't believe its" - YouTube
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  32. #132  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    When I am dead....I won't know anything....
    Some of the posters here have decided not to wait until they're dead before they achieve that.
    Spit my tea up on that one. Good witticism, good laugh, good morning.
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    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by hannah40 View Post
    Dywyddyr - This reminds me of you in a joking way.

    Victor Meldrew - "I don't believe its" - YouTube
    To be honest, I saw him in my minds eye, with a hump on his back and a beer in his hand.
    I cannot tell you why, we have to make it up as we go along.
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  34. #134  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Death can also mean sustenance as outlined in this heartwarming story. Seems that hunger can be sated if you have the proper tools and know where to dig. Plus it's savings on the grocery bill and you don't even need coupons.
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    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Death can also mean sustenance as outlined in this heartwarming story. Seems that hunger can be sated if you have the proper tools and know where to dig. Plus it's savings on the grocery bill and you don't even need coupons.
    Zin, it really depends on how one wants to see what they want to see. The most and least I can do, is make what I can, out of what I can, and enjoy it.
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  36. #136  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Death can also mean sustenance as outlined in this heartwarming story. Seems that hunger can be sated if you have the proper tools and know where to dig. Plus it's savings on the grocery bill and you don't even need coupons.
    Zin, it really depends on how one wants to see what they want to see. The most and least I can do, is make what I can, out of what I can, and enjoy it.
    Seems that in Pakistan at least, death has its rewards at the dinner table. "Soylent Green is people"

    When you think about it, death is necessary for survival. What you eat is usually dead or dies in the process. Except for the Bedouins who survive life in the desert because of the 'sand which is' there.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Death can also mean sustenance as outlined in this heartwarming story. Seems that hunger can be sated if you have the proper tools and know where to dig. Plus it's savings on the grocery bill and you don't even need coupons.
    Zin, it really depends on how one wants to see what they want to see. The most and least I can do, is make what I can, out of what I can, and enjoy it.
    Seems that in Pakistan at least, death has its rewards at the dinner table. "Soylent Green is people"

    When you think about it, death is necessary for survival. What you eat is usually dead or dies in the process. Except for the Bedouins who survive life in the desert because of the 'sand which is' there.
    Yea, when you look at it from a point of energy, in the end I will eat anything. I got used to the food I eat now and most of it I like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    You're making the Universe anthropomorphic, the universe doesn't 'give' anyone anything.

    Instead it might be best to say we are the universe?

    Sure, I'm made of space, energy and matter. Mostly space. But somehow, I am the universe, a subsystem of the universe observing itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    Thus, death itself is not innately "evil" or "wrong", it's merely returning a loan - the life the Universe has temporarily granted you for the duration of your existence.
    Does it mean every time I push someone in front of a moving trolley, I'm merely taking on the role of a repoman (of sorts) for the universe?
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