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Thread: Why is high-school culture/bullying immoral?

  1. #1 Why is high-school culture/bullying immoral? 
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    Isn't the nature of teenagers to seek dominion? Why then is high school bullying "wrong"? Right and wrong are silly concepts that don't exist, as all know?


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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Isn't the nature of teenagers to seek dominion?
    Some teenagers, maybe. Certainly not all.

    Why then is high school bullying "wrong"?
    Because society decides it is (for various ethical and practical reasons).

    Right and wrong are silly concepts that don't exist, as all know?
    Of course right and wrong exist. That is why we have rules, laws, police and courts.

    You may be confused by the fact that there may not be any absolute or divine source of right and wrong. That is not the same as them not existing. For example, this forum has various rules. It is wrong to break the rules and you may be punished in some way if you do. Similarly, society has various definitions of right and wrong. If you infringe these you may get anything from mild disapproval to a death sentence.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Isn't the nature of teenagers to seek dominion?
    Some teenagers, maybe. Certainly not all.
    I disagree, there are numerous studies conducted by psychologists pertaining to this.

    Why then is high school bullying "wrong"?
    Because society decides it is (for various ethical and practical reasons).[/quote]

    Yes, and "society" is the supreme arbiter fount of wisdom..

    Right and wrong are silly concepts that don't exist, as all know?
    Of course right and wrong exist. That is why we have rules, laws, police and courts.[/quote]

    Laws are also based on practicality, not "morality".
    You may be confused by the fact that there may not be any absolute or divine source of right and wrong. That is not the same as them not existing. For example, this forum has various rules. It is wrong to break the rules and you may be punished in some way if you do. Similarly, society has various definitions of right and wrong. If you infringe these you may get anything from mild disapproval to a death sentence.
    Absolute morality doesn't exist. That said, morality doesn't exist either, this is based on common fact/world experience and human experience.
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    Aye, another one of these posts. "Right and wrong don't exist for scientists". Except they do.

    Rational thought has a long and wonderful history, and a big part of it was the great Greek thinkers. They contemplated logic, reason, beauty, and ethics. The ethical has a quality of beauty, a resonance throughout eternity that is shared with some of the greatest and most timeless mathematical equations, and greatest scientific ideas. It stands alone, it glows. You know moral, just, and ethical actions when you see them. Its something deep inside all of us. Understanding it more formally remains an open challenge, but a wonderful one to undertake.

    You ask about high school bullies, and I'll tell about our modern grown-up world. Every one wants to be liked at that age, but the task of the bully isn't to elevate him or herself through self improvement to be liked, but rather to bring down others around to be disliked more than them, that they may seem more acceptable. This song is playing out all around us in our modern world, as people seek to oppress others, not to be more innately successful, but to appear relatively more successful than someone else. Every sharp rational thinker sees this as the poisonous monstrosity that it is, and wants to shut it down, that we may cultivate a world where we all strive to be the best that we can personally be, without being judged in regards to others. This is pure, beautiful, mathematical, correct ethical thinking.

    Peace!
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    Quote Originally Posted by TridentBlue View Post
    Aye, another one of these posts. "Right and wrong don't exist for scientists". Except they do.

    Rational thought has a long and wonderful history, and a big part of it was the great Greek thinkers. They contemplated logic, reason, beauty, and ethics. The ethical has a quality of beauty, a resonance throughout eternity that is shared with some of the greatest and most timeless mathematical equations, and greatest scientific ideas. It stands alone, it glows. You know moral, just, and ethical actions when you see them. Its something deep inside all of us. Understanding it more formally remains an open challenge, but a wonderful one to undertake.

    You ask about high school bullies, and I'll tell about our modern grown-up world. Every one wants to be liked at that age, but the task of the bully isn't to elevate him or herself through self improvement to be liked, but rather to bring down others around to be disliked more than them, that they may seem more acceptable. This song is playing out all around us in our modern world, as people seek to oppress others, not to be more innately successful, but to appear relatively more successful than someone else. Every sharp rational thinker sees this as the poisonous monstrosity that it is, and wants to shut it down, that we may cultivate a world where we all strive to be the best that we can personally be, without being judged in regards to others. This is pure, beautiful, mathematical, correct ethical thinking.

    Peace!
    So teaching people that all humans act benevolently, to the good interest of others, or value peace, is healthy. haha..
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    [QUOTE=sarnamluvu;530498I disagree, there are numerous studies conducted by psychologists pertaining to this.[/QUOTE]

    Feel free to provide references to peer reviewed research showing that all teenagers seek dominance.

    But as you don't think psychology is a science, why are you using it as a source of information?

    Yes, and "society" is the supreme arbiter fount of wisdom..
    Not really.

    Laws are also based on practicality, not "morality".
    And they define right and wrong.
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    Feel free to provide references to peer reviewed research showing that all teenagers seek dominance.

    But as you don't think psychology is a science, why are you using it as a source of information?
    People contradict. You do, but then I sense you're offended that I'm doing the same, but I don't think as you do, so get over it...


    Not really.
    "Not really" what? Society is a group of people, unless you're suggesting bandwagon fallacy-esque thinking is appropriate...

    Laws are also based on practicality, not "morality".
    And they define right and wrong.[/QUOTE]

    Eh? Right and wrong don't exist, ever. Only children and fools endorse the concept of evil or "wrong".
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    No, all humans do not act that way. But the moral force stands on its own, the moral life exists even if there is no one left to live it. It stands alone and is absolute. This is the conclusion of intuitions that reach far beyond what can be easily formalized in equations. I believe that when Bill Nye sees a heartfelt moral action, it warms him inside. I believe that Michio Kaku sees science being used to help the helpless, it warms his heart and could bring a tear to his eye. I don't believe scientific rationality cuts people off from the good and the right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Society is a group of people
    And people are varied, variable, irrational, contradictory, etc. and therefore not a "supreme fount of wisdom" (whatever that means).
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    And a group of people can say or do anything. This doesn't mean their word/deed is inherently justified or valid. I don't think many adults frankly care about what "society" says or does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TridentBlue View Post
    No, all humans do not act that way. But the moral force stands on its own, the moral life exists even if there is no one left to live it. It stands alone and is absolute. This is the conclusion of intuitions that reach far beyond what can be easily formalized in equations. I believe that when Bill Nye sees a heartfelt moral action, it warms him inside. I believe that Michio Kaku sees science being used to help the helpless, it warms his heart and could bring a tear to his eye. I don't believe scientific rationality cuts people off from the good and the right.
    What is absolute about morality? If ten people were left on an island the size of, say, Long Island and formed a community, then wouldn't it be based on the subjective feelings of each person, the climatic conditions, the available resources, etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    And a group of people can say or do anything. This doesn't mean their word/deed is inherently justified or valid. I don't think many adults frankly care about what "society" says or does.
    This is undoubtedly the dumbest statement posted on the forum this month. The vast majority of adults spend time, money and effort to try to fit in, or to generate a different view in their audience. Your foolish remark is a classic example. You wouldn't be posting here if you didn't care what we think. What a wally!
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    I believe my point is the truth. I don't get why it's NOT true.
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    What many perceive to be typical high school behavior is not "natural", I have lived and experienced high school years in different cultures including American high school and the differences in teenagers views were striking. In some other cultures theres no concept of "winner" and "looser" as people from the US relate to it and teenagers dont give a shit about "popularity" the way American students perceive it (some might like to be liked for things they enjoy doing but not "more" than someone else as if its a contest).

    If any people (sociopath or not) have problems distinguishing right from wrong, morailty etc, lets put it in functional terms to make it easier, generally speaking, a behavior that causes less interference when there is interaction is better. if the various parts of your engine interfere with one another their ability to function is diminished, this phenomenon can add up to cause a disfunctional engine that fails to be as effective as can be or break down. When people help each other it is beneficial to society at large in addition to the golden rule basic benefits.
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    That is a very good point. sarnamlusur seems to be an extreme case of the American Individualist attitude, where being "different" and "free" is more important than anything else. In many cultures, these are not admirable traits. It is interesting that in Japanese detective stories, for example, the focus is much more on cooperation between police officers and teamwork to solve the crime, while American novels seem to more often have an individual (and often renegade) cop who solves the crime despite their colleagues.

    (I don't know if that analogy was inspired by icewendigo's avatar...)
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Isn't the nature of teenagers to seek dominion? Why then is high school bullying "wrong"?
    Because we humans, in another odd attempt to rise above our innate animal savagery, sometimes try to control our drives and urges in order to create a more cohesive and cooperative society.

    Think of this forum as a microcosm of society. I am not allowed by the moderators to single you out and "dominate" you. If I do, I will be suspended or at least told to stop. They do this to maintain a semblance of order in an attempt to facilitate rational discussions rather than complete anarchy. Most of us are capable of maintaining this control for the the sake of the group without being moderated. Some people aren't. It's better for the whole forum if those administrative controls are set into place for everyone.
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    Isn't the nature of teenagers to seek dominion? Why then is high school bullying "wrong"?
    That is why they have sports available to those teens. They can easily do their bidding on the field of play instead of taking out their ire on other classmates.

    As I stated once when I was bullied I pushed the person down a flight of stairs where that person broke his back. I really do not think that bullies want that to happen but in some cases it does and they get hurt not their victim. Needless to say that person never came back to my school so there were no other problems with that person nor the friends that person had as a "back up'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Isn't the nature of teenagers to seek dominion? Why then is high school bullying "wrong"?
    That is why they have sports available to those teens. They can easily do their bidding on the field of play instead of taking out their ire on other classmates.

    As I stated once when I was bullied I pushed the person down a flight of stairs where that person broke his back. I really do not think that bullies want that to happen but in some cases it does and they get hurt not their victim. Needless to say that person never came back to my school so there were no other problems with that person nor the friends that person had as a "back up'.
    Morality doesn't exist, and at best is whatever the individual makes it to be. If teens get bullied, maybe they need to accept human realities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Isn't the nature of teenagers to seek dominion? Why then is high school bullying "wrong"?
    That is why they have sports available to those teens. They can easily do their bidding on the field of play instead of taking out their ire on other classmates.

    As I stated once when I was bullied I pushed the person down a flight of stairs where that person broke his back. I really do not think that bullies want that to happen but in some cases it does and they get hurt not their victim. Needless to say that person never came back to my school so there were no other problems with that person nor the friends that person had as a "back up'.
    Morality doesn't exist, and at best is whatever the individual makes it to be. If teens get bullied, maybe they need to accept human realities.
    And you need to accept [redacted]

    That's it, I'm putting this **** on ignore before I get banned.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TridentBlue View Post
    No, all humans do not act that way. But the moral force stands on its own, the moral life exists even if there is no one left to live it. It stands alone and is absolute. This is the conclusion of intuitions that reach far beyond what can be easily formalized in equations. I believe that when Bill Nye sees a heartfelt moral action, it warms him inside. I believe that Michio Kaku sees science being used to help the helpless, it warms his heart and could bring a tear to his eye. I don't believe scientific rationality cuts people off from the good and the right.
    What is absolute about morality? If ten people were left on an island the size of, say, Long Island and formed a community, then wouldn't it be based on the subjective feelings of each person, the climatic conditions, the available resources, etc.
    Well, I think we could say they could choose different values, different strategies. But the key thing to me is that some of those values and strategies would lead to an Easter Island/Lord of the Flies hellish situation, and others would leave to a decent and pleasant way of life, that could flourish far into the future. Those values that lead to the best good are the absolute ethical values. They're absolute because they are out there, there are SOME values and strategies that lead to the best outcomes. Its the same as saying there's some absolute best chess strategy. If all strategies played against each other by computers, one would win the most games, and that would the best strategy. Of course we probably don't know what that is, and we also don't know always would the absolute best and most moral/ethical thing to do is. But there is an absolute best and most moral/ethical thing to do in any situation, and its a worthy goal to try to figure out what it is, or at least how to get a little closer to it.
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    I sometimes think about traffic flows as a demonstration of more or less successful social strategies in action. When everyone obeys traffic lights and indicates clearly in advance of turning or changing lanes and allows others to join or leave the flow of traffic without hindrance, it all goes fairly well.

    On the other hand if you don't use indicators, or only use them as "confirmicators" once you've already started the manoeuvre, other drivers need to slow down or change direction themselves to avoid rear-ending or colliding with you and you finish up with those waves of stop -start, and occasional rear end collisions, at points many vehicles, even kilometres, removed from your incompetent and/or thoughtless action. The same thing happens when people don't allow others to smoothly "zip" join a flow of traffic - the stop-start wave effect then propagates through two sets of traffic flows.

    There are ancillary rules which make life for people entirely uninvolved with your own direction of traffic flow much easier, like not entering a junction or intersection if your way is not clear to leave on the other side. You may have to wait for the next round of opportunities to continue on your way, but if you - and all the others like you - fill the roads across the intersection, then the people travelling on other roads are blocked from moving at all. Obeying ordinary and, especially, 'works in progress' speed limits means that we can be sure to limit the harm we might do or suffer if something unexpected happens. Similar considerations apply to avoiding driving when we're tired or angry or affected by medications, alcohol or other drugs.

    All this is really a special form of ordinary social ethics in considering, or not, the effects of our own actions on ourselves, on our passengers and on other travellers or workers - in this case, people we don't know at all.

    Make your interactions in a social setting conducive to good outcomes for everyone involved and the world is, however briefly, a better place.

    Though, of course, making a "world" containing bullies a better place means finding a way to shut them down and/or ameliorate the effects they might have had on their targets.
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    We didn't have high school bullying.

    We actually embraced those who were "slow"as we also didn't have SPECIAL ED.

    To this day......when Ralph comes to a reunion, he is met with hugs and happy to see you and treated like a beloved person.

    Then again....we are a close knit of what is left of the 389 of us who graduated.

    Nice to know we weren't status quo.
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    Well maybe this is just me, but then 17/18 year olds have basic human/social understanding. OK, everybody is different, but then it's been proven via many psychological studies that people of that age know their social environment, that people can ultimately do anything, people have their own agendas and can manipulate them in ANY way they choose, etc.

    Meh, I guess to me some things in life have to be left alone, as they're either difficult or impossible to change. Teens generally via life in terms of dominance and social ranking, so it figures. I think bullying has become "worse" in modern society largely due to the media, changing social values, and the Internet. I'd bet in the 1940s, most wouldn't give a shit about bullying, and was seen as a right of passage. Also, there was no 24/7 CNN or BBC World to highlight such. We also live in a far more compassionate/tolerant society.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    ... but then it's been proven via many psychological studies that ...
    Do you mean the studies that you have been so adamant in condemning and throwing it out the window?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    ... but then it's been proven via many psychological studies that ...
    Do you mean the studies that you have been so adamant in condemning and throwing it out the window?
    Apart from the fact that he has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to comprehend simple posts here, never mind a scientific paper. On the few occasions when he has tried to provide evidence to support his delusions, the papers either say the opposite of what he claims or are completely irrelevant. ("Here is a paper on wild salmon populations that proves that psychologists are evil")
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    ... but then it's been proven via many psychological studies that ...
    Do you mean the studies that you have been so adamant in condemning and throwing it out the window?
    Yes. People contradict. And?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    ... but then it's been proven via many psychological studies that ...
    Do you mean the studies that you have been so adamant in condemning and throwing it out the window?
    Yes. People I contradict myself. And?
    You are undermining your own credibility and the validity of just about everything you have said and/or will say in the future by being wishy-washy. The result being that it will be hard or perhaps more accurately; impossible for anyone to take what you say and do seriously. That is the direct consequence of being inconsistent in your position.
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    lulz.. more laughs for me, wow it makes a good early afternoon! haha..

    I can sense highly that you're offended I contradict and others do, but somehow I'm "not allowed" to do so lol.. whatever, unless there is a law (governmental or natural, or divine) that says I cannot, then cite it kindly...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    ... but then it's been proven via many psychological studies that ...
    Do you mean the studies that you have been so adamant in condemning and throwing it out the window?
    Yes. People contradict. And?
    Am I correct in coming to the conclusion that you are now intending to make no sense and arrive at no intelligent point anymore?

    You agree that you say meaningless, contradictory gibberish? You appear to be TRYING to demonstrate your complete ineptitude.

    I get it if you don't really have much going on and you get some kind of rise out of this inane posting you've been doing, but as Queen Victoria would say, "We are not amused."

    If your purpose has degraded into just trying to annoy everyone by being obtuse, could you just take the gentleman's approach and bugger off?
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    Of course he doesn't make sense. It is all just part of his immature attention seeking. "Look at me, I can be outrageous. I can be contradictory. I can insult you and I don't care."

    I bet his mum is just pleased to have him out of her hair for a while. He has probably made her turn to drink and anti-depressants.
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    Er lol.. Look, people contradict. I don't get how life realities scare/annoy you so much.

    I frankly don't care how I come across, I'm laughing at all of you since you "regulate" who contradicts based on your overly subjective criteria/reasoning, lol..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Of course he doesn't make sense. It is all just part of his immature attention seeking. "Look at me, I can be outrageous. I can be contradictory. I can insult you and I don't care."

    I bet his mum is just pleased to have him out of her hair for a while. He has probably made her turn to drink and anti-depressants.
    er.. lol.. I don't annoy nor hurt anybody, least of which all persons my mother. Though if you have cause to hurt close relatives (none closer in simple biological terms than one's mother) then fine, you have your morals, I have mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    unless there is a law (governmental or natural, or divine) that says I cannot, then cite it kindly...
    It's in the APA document that you linked to in the other thread.
    Directly after the bit that actually supports your argument about psychologists pushing spirituality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    unless there is a law (governmental or natural, or divine) that says I cannot, then cite it kindly...
    It's in the APA document that you linked to in the other thread.
    Directly after the bit that actually supports your argument about psychologists pushing spirituality.
    Also, since sarnamluvu claimed that "psychology is NOT a real science", any psychology related material can't be submitted to support anything he wishes them to support.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    unless there is a law (governmental or natural, or divine) that says I cannot, then cite it kindly...
    It's in the APA document that you linked to in the other thread.
    Directly after the bit that actually supports your argument about psychologists pushing spirituality.
    Also, since sarnamluvu claimed that "psychology is NOT a real science", any psychology related material can't be submitted to support anything he wishes them to support.
    Oh, wow, thanks for that link. What a loon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    unless there is a law (governmental or natural, or divine) that says I cannot, then cite it kindly...
    It's in the APA document that you linked to in the other thread.
    Directly after the bit that actually supports your argument about psychologists pushing spirituality.
    lol.. well you have your views, I have mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    ... but then it's been proven via many psychological studies that ...
    Do you mean the studies that you have been so adamant in condemning and throwing it out the window?
    Apart from the fact that he has repeatedly demonstrated that he is unable to comprehend simple posts here, never mind a scientific paper. On the few occasions when he has tried to provide evidence to support his delusions, the papers either say the opposite of what he claims or are completely irrelevant. ("Here is a paper on wild salmon populations that proves that psychologists are evil")
    I don't actually believe in evil, as anything goes in life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    lulz.. more laughs for at me...
    Lulz.. fixed that for you. You're welcome.

    I sense that you're highly offended that we're not buying the crap you're selling. Well you're just going to have to deal with that fact here in a more mature manner, or you'll deal with it elsewhere if the mods think that you're just here to troll.
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    Hip waders *check*

    Pole *check*

    Hook *check*
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    lol. lulz.... All I know is others contradict, I am human. So if you're all offended at me doing so to, I don't care, I don't share your moral system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    lol. lulz.... All I know is others contradict, I am human. So if you're all offended at me doing so to, I don't care, I don't share your moral system.
    And I am supposed to care what your moral system is?

    I don't find you informational or humorous.

    I just find you rather boring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    lol. lulz.... All I know is others contradict, I am human. So if you're all offended at me doing so to, I don't care, I don't share your moral system.
    And I am supposed to care what your moral system is?

    I don't find you informational or humorous.

    I just find you rather boring.
    I certainly have to care what yours is, though it's obvious you're offended at some stranger acting human, despite your baseless "right" to do so. I find YOU humourous because of that. I also find you not boring, but petty and small lol.. I don't care though, it's not as if you have some greater right in this affair than I do, so we'll maintain our mutual dislike.
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    Why exactly is your belief system superior to others sarnamluvu?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    I don't share your moral system.
    Sure you do. Do you mock people on the street because you don't like the way they look? Do you routinely act out your aggressive or immoral behaviors regardless of how it affects others? Do you abide by state and national laws?

    This whole series of moronic posts by you is something of which you are quite fond; a big fat contradiction.
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    It seems apparent that you don't even HAVE a moral system, so obviously you don't share that of others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    It seems apparent that you don't even HAVE a moral system, so obviously you don't share that of others.
    As a human non-sociopath, I have morals, inclusive of not hurting others (or doing my best not to). Again, do I need to agree with your fatalism? and how I'm "not allowed" to contradict? lol..
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    I don't share your moral system.
    Sure you do. Do you mock people on the street because you don't like the way they look? Do you routinely act out your aggressive or immoral behaviors regardless of how it affects others? Do you abide by state and national laws?

    This whole series of moronic posts by you is something of which you are quite fond; a big fat contradiction.
    Most humans contradict. Most humans also use language, and are habitually bipedal. eekk... evil human me..

    That said, my motivation for morals and social behaviour is the general peace and to get on well with others. I believe this is why morals evolved. Even so-called "lower" species have common rules and punishment for those who don't accept them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Even so-called "lower" species have common rules and punishment for those who don't accept them.
    Specific examples please....
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

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    [QUOTE=sarnamluvu;531751]
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    That said, my motivation for morals and social behaviour is the general peace and to get on well with others. I believe this is why morals evolved. Even so-called "lower" species have common rules and punishment for those who don't accept them.
    Hey, sarnamluvu. If you're looking into insight into morality, one thing to think about is opium. So here you are, young, free. The old wise spiritual man says stay away from it, he says staying clean is moral, but what-the-hell. You're free, so you indulge. And its good. So good you want more. And more. And then you're a slave.

    And it turns out that voice of "freedom" was actually the voice of a colonial force, trying to cultivate that addiction to gain control. This is what happened in China a long time ago.

    So yes, morals evolved because they are empowering. Being amoral tends to make tools of us. The same story plays out with every "badass" in prison, for whom $40,000 USD is paid a year, and he gets nothing but a cell and really crappy food. But he serves ultimately to perpetuate the system that puts him in prison, because people see, via his "badass" attitude that that's where he needs to be, and are willing to pay the money to keep him there, even to private prisons as we have in the US. This amoral state of the criminals isn't a story of empowerment, its a story of becoming a tool for a larger economic machine. Its not freedom.

    And that's pretty much how it is across the spectrum. The moral way is simply the realization that certain short term costs have long term benefits, and avoids very very dangerous pitfalls.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Even so-called "lower" species have common rules and punishment for those who don't accept them.
    Specific examples please....
    alpha male structures, higher ranked animals eating first, banishment of young adult lions by the leading pride male, reinforcement of which males mate with which females, etc. This is well documented zoologically, and has been for many decades.
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    How exactly are those hierarchy systems related to your morality assertions?
    If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. -Thorin Oakenshield

    The needs of the many outweigh the need of the few - Spock of Vulcan & Sentinel Prime of Cybertron ---proof that "the needs" are in the eye of the beholder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    Why exactly is your belief system superior to others sarnamluvu?
    I don't believe it is. Do you believe yours is to others?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleoichneum View Post
    How exactly are those hierarchy systems related to your morality assertions?
    You disputed that animals have rules. I cited examples of such. What more do you want exactly?
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    alpha male structures, higher ranked animals eating first, banishment of young adult lions by the leading pride male, reinforcement of which males mate with which females, etc. This is well documented zoologically, and has been for many decades.
    All true - except where it isn't.

    Wolf packs as an example are led by a single pair of mature adults and the whole pack consists of their offspring at various stages of development. So I suppose you could talk about "alpha parents" instead of alpha males but that would just be silly. Meerkats have a slightly different arrangement with a matriarch mating exclusively with one of the males for varying periods of time, but, just like wolves, the whole pack consists of offspring of that parent and the older siblings participate in the care, protection and education of the younger ones.

    A lot of birds have courting arrangements that consist of males competing to attract mates rather than competing with each other to get mating rights with all females in the kind of harem groups you find in animals that have a rutting season. Many birds have long term, sometimes lifelong, monogamous relationships. Even though they might spend most of the year apart, they find each other every mating season and raise each brood of young together in whatever way has developed in that species.

    If you want to find an animal model you should look to our closest species relatives, and once again you find huge variety. Bonobos, chimps, gorillas and orangutans all have very different social and sexual and family arrangements. Bonobos seem to have the best of all possible worlds, but they probably have their own set of problems.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    That's not the point. Animals reinforce rules as much as we do, even if they have no courts, laws, governments, or theories/ideologies on governance..(no chimp socialists, the last I read...) To use horses as an example, if a lower ranking horse seeks to eat first on a pasture, it is put in line by the highest ranking horse. Or if a lower male baboon attempts to mate with a female, the alpha will put it in it's place.



    To assert then as he did that rue enforcement only exists in humans is silly. He needs to learn more zoological knowledge frankly...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    I don't share your moral system.
    Sure you do. Do you mock people on the street because you don't like the way they look? Do you routinely act out your aggressive or immoral behaviors regardless of how it affects others?
    Based on his posts here, I wouldn't be surprised if he did all of those things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    I don't share your moral system.
    Sure you do. Do you mock people on the street because you don't like the way they look? Do you routinely act out your aggressive or immoral behaviors regardless of how it affects others?
    Based on his posts here, I wouldn't be surprised if he did all of those things.
    In that case, I'm assuming he gets beat up a lot. Maybe that's why he was so bitter.
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    I really wonder about a person that has to ask if bullying is immoral. I think that even bullies would admit that what they do isn't right. So, WTF is up with the OP?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    In that case, I'm assuming he gets beat up a lot. Maybe that's why he was so bitter.
    It could also be a reason why he seems to believe everyone sees him as a "threat".
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    It could also be a reason why he seems to believe everyone sees him as a "threat".
    I've been reading that as a moral/ethical/social version of the crank type accusations that we're "threatened" by what they believe are new ideas - well supported by their obviously outstanding intelligence and related enviable qualities.

    It's just an idiosyncratic way of saying "I'm an individual free from the social constraints of you brain-washed sheeple". I'm a moral free spirit.

    (I also suspect there's other stuff in the background but who cares.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumaMan View Post
    I really wonder about a person that has to ask if bullying is immoral. I think that even bullies would admit that what they do isn't right. So, WTF is up with the OP?
    That's an excellent point PM.

    Maybe his conscience is bothering him. I can't see why a victim of bullying would ask if its immoral, I think that would be a given. Only a perpetrator would need to know, if only to justify his actions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    That's not the point. Animals reinforce rules as much as we do, even if they have no courts, laws, governments, or theories/ideologies on governance..(no chimp socialists, the last I read...)

    That may not be entirely true. Even other primates with strict hierarchies sometimes make allowances. Primatologist Frans de Waal describes surprising tolerance of a trisomic monkey named Azalea who had abnormal motor and social skills, in ways somewhat like humans with Down syndrome. Instead of reacting to her social transgressions that would normally be swiftly punished, such as threatening the alpha male, the other monkeys overlooked it, or even protected her.
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    Bullying is wrong because you're causing harm to another party.

    However, bullies may argue that they're doing what's natural to them, because it's their opinion.

    Well, then, it's not wrong. But you're a prick for doing it. And nobody likes pricks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EugeneT View Post
    However, bullies may argue that they're doing what's natural to them, because it's their opinion.

    Well, then, it's not wrong.
    Depends upon your idea of wrong. If you don't mind going to juvy when the kid you bullied ends up with psychological issues, then it's not wrong. If your idea of wrong is violating laws set in place by society, then harassing or assaulting another person is very wrong and you should expect to pay for the consequences of your actions.

    As humans, we're able to establish hierarchy without physically or mentally harming one another. My boss is a PhD and we get along really well. But I respect him as my superior because he has demonstrated more proficiency in our field than me. He doesn't have to put me down to demonstrate that.

    Perhaps people who feel the need to bully are just more in touch with the primitive aspects of their social behavior and haven't yet ascended the ladder to H. sapien.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EugeneT View Post
    Well, then, it's not wrong. But you're a prick for doing it. And nobody likes pricks.
    This post inspired by Team America: World Police.
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    I would imagine it gives a victim of high school bullying great pleasure when they are in a position later in life that would enable them to exact revenge. Not in a physical sense, but life changing, for the bully that is. Example being a doctor and having the bully as a patient or being a boss with control over who gets hired or fired. Not saying there would be physical harming but some measure of vengeance meted out mentally.... the do onto others approach.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    lol. lulz.... All I know is others contradict, I am human. So if you're all offended at me doing so to, I don't care, I don't share your moral system.
    And I am supposed to care what your moral system is?

    I don't find you informational or humorous.

    I just find you rather boring.
    I certainly have to care what yours is, though it's obvious you're offended at some stranger acting human, despite your baseless "right" to do so. I find YOU humourous because of that. I also find you not boring, but petty and small lol.. I don't care though, it's not as if you have some greater right in this affair than I do, so we'll maintain our mutual dislike.

    OH MY GOD!!!! I have just been bullied in a very sophomoric way!

    I can't stop cringing!

    *sobbing* I don't know I can go on!!!!!! *dramatic gesture*
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    lol. lulz.... All I know is others contradict, I am human. So if you're all offended at me doing so to, I don't care, I don't share your moral system.
    And I am supposed to care what your moral system is?

    I don't find you informational or humorous.

    I just find you rather boring.
    I certainly have to care what yours is, though it's obvious you're offended at some stranger acting human, despite your baseless "right" to do so. I find YOU humourous because of that. I also find you not boring, but petty and small lol.. I don't care though, it's not as if you have some greater right in this affair than I do, so we'll maintain our mutual dislike.

    OH MY GOD!!!! I have just been bullied in a very sophomoric way!

    I can't stop cringing!

    *sobbing* I don't know I can go on!!!!!! *dramatic gesture*
    lol.. Just stating an opinion. Though it's known you make the most sociopathic threads/posts on the forum, but then it's not my issue...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    lol.. Just stating an opinion. Though it's known you make the most sociopathic threads/posts on the forum, but then it's not my issue...
    You are one weird mama jama. Where are you from? I want to be sure never to go there.

    (By the way, you are very BAD!)
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    lol. I just think it to be true.
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    For what it's worth, I was bullied. yes there is a contradiction but so what, get offended, I don't care.

    I do think though that school bullying is human nature.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    For what it's worth, I was bullied. yes there is a contradiction but so what, get offended, I don't care.

    I do think though that school bullying is human nature.
    We get offended better than you do because you are bad. The acorn knows no offense though because it is pure of heart and gives of itself freely.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    lol. lulz.... All I know is others contradict, I am human. So if you're all offended at me doing so to, I don't care, I don't share your moral system.
    And I am supposed to care what your moral system is?

    I don't find you informational or humorous.

    I just find you rather boring.
    I certainly have to care what yours is, though it's obvious you're offended at some stranger acting human, despite your baseless "right" to do so. I find YOU humourous because of that. I also find you not boring, but petty and small lol.. I don't care though, it's not as if you have some greater right in this affair than I do, so we'll maintain our mutual dislike.

    OH MY GOD!!!! I have just been bullied in a very sophomoric way!

    I can't stop cringing!

    *sobbing* I don't know I can go on!!!!!! *dramatic gesture*
    lol.. Just stating an opinion. Though it's known you make the most sociopathic threads/posts on the forum, but then it's not my issue...
    Please show me one.

    Are you unable to grasp humor.

    Or just unable to grasp anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PumaMan View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    For what it's worth, I was bullied. yes there is a contradiction but so what, get offended, I don't care.

    I do think though that school bullying is human nature.
    We get offended better than you do because you are bad. The acorn knows no offense though because it is pure of heart and gives of itself freely.

    And every once in awhile, even a blind squirrel gets an acorn!
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    lol. lulz.... All I know is others contradict, I am human. So if you're all offended at me doing so to, I don't care, I don't share your moral system.
    And I am supposed to care what your moral system is?

    I don't find you informational or humorous.

    I just find you rather boring.
    I certainly have to care what yours is, though it's obvious you're offended at some stranger acting human, despite your baseless "right" to do so. I find YOU humourous because of that. I also find you not boring, but petty and small lol.. I don't care though, it's not as if you have some greater right in this affair than I do, so we'll maintain our mutual dislike.

    OH MY GOD!!!! I have just been bullied in a very sophomoric way!

    I can't stop cringing!

    *sobbing* I don't know I can go on!!!!!! *dramatic gesture*
    lol.. Just stating an opinion. Though it's known you make the most sociopathic threads/posts on the forum, but then it's not my issue...
    Please show me one.

    Are you unable to grasp humor.

    Or just unable to grasp anything.
    What some stranger cites is not my issue, nor concern.

    But then yeah, all must accept and agree with your humour, not knowing it's a highly subjective concept
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  77. #76  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    But then yeah, all must accept and agree with your humour, not knowing it's a highly subjective concept
    Strangers may cite that the concept of humour must be agreed to by all those failing in family affairs and it is not subjective, except in due course of elliptical traces.
    babe likes this.
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  78. #77  
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    man that man needs a life...
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    man that man needs a life...
    er.. OK, so I make a comment on your posts and I need a life, OK...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    man that man needs a life...
    er.. OK, so I make a comment on your posts and I need a life, OK...
    Yes.

    OK.
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    lolwut? it's always funny to see some stranger and her sociopathy... and somebody who believes others don't have rights to opinions...
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    *sigh* Your inane non-sequiturs are becoming tiresome.
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    eh? All I did was say I think she comes across as a sociopath, lulz.. don't get irate at others' opinions... I don't get which parts don't logically follow from the others, but meh...
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    lolwut? it's always funny to see some stranger and her sociopathy... and somebody who believes others don't have rights to opinions...
    You have the right to an opinion. Doesn't mean we have to like it or it has to make any sense. Lunatics and social pariahs all have a right to an opinion.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    eh? All I did was say I think she comes across as a sociopath, lulz.. don't get irate at others' opinions... I don't get which parts don't logically follow from the others, but meh...
    You remind me of a spoiled child, which I term as BRAT children, an arrogant client, who hasn't a clue....full of words that have no merit, and no idea how to solve the issue, a person who has no sense of people, only of self.

    I'm sorry.

    Life may teach you some humility. It isn't a bad lesson.

    Frankly, I respect pretty much every person in this forum, even when they do not agree with me.

    I can't extend that respect to you at this point.

    Please prove me mistaken.
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    er.. well clearly you get irked by others' views, not my problem if you do... And despite your unrelated rant, it's clear you're not as balanced as you project if you can't accept others' views of you, even strangers'..
    Last edited by sarnamluvu; March 8th, 2014 at 06:00 AM.
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  87. #86  
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    Guys, stop feeding the troll.
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    eh? Rambling aside, I simply said I don't "respect" you and your posts since they seem sociopathic. lulz... if that irks you so much, so be it, it's not my problem nor issue....
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Guys, stop feeding the troll.
    Agreed.....

    trolls do tend to dissolve when you ignore them *S*
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    lulz.... the sociopath (eek... I can't have opinions!!) calls me a troll, fine..
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    I don't care, get with it...
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I would imagine it gives a victim of high school bullying great pleasure when they are in a position later in life that would enable them to exact revenge. Not in a physical sense, but life changing, for the bully that is. Example being a doctor and having the bully as a patient or being a boss with control over who gets hired or fired. Not saying there would be physical harming but some measure of vengeance meted out mentally.... the do onto others approach.
    I find children should be taught to learn that children, nay humans, can be cruel. It is as is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    [
    You remind me of a spoiled child, which I term as BRAT children, an arrogant client, who hasn't a clue....full of words that have no merit, and no idea how to solve the issue, a person who has no sense of people, only of self.
    ha. so I'm younger than you, envious?
    I'm sorry.

    Life may teach you some humility. It isn't a bad lesson.
    lulz.. what?
    Frankly, I respect pretty much every person in this forum, even when they do not agree with me.

    I can't extend that respect to you at this point.

    Please prove me mistaken.
    haha.. So because I don't adhere to "long standing morals", I am not worthy of the approval of some stranger. the same stranger who endorses some "long standing morals" of social equality, anti-homophobia, etc. haha.. no you simply make me laugh, based on your sociopathy and projected thinking. you may not care about me, so i won't care about you, since you're clearly as not as benevolent as you make out.

    But yeah, i'll leave you as OLDER to "stay with the 'way of life'" and follow me around to say how I "contradict" when most humans do also.... lol..
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    Don't feed the hippo's
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    lulz.. you amuse me, but then the rants of a stranger/sociopath don't phase me.. lol..
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    don't feed the hippo's
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    I'm feeding you and sociopaths like to be fed, right?
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  99. #98  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    I'm feeding you and sociopaths like to be fed, right?

    You've already been warned to stop trolling. You are deliberately ignoring feedback from the membership and mod team.

    See you for a couple days while we review your continued participation here.
    PhDemon, babe and Daecon like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Isn't the nature of teenagers to seek dominion? Why then is high school bullying "wrong"? Right and wrong are silly concepts that don't exist, as all know?
    seeking domination of school?
    please... The world

    while i can not actually take over the world, i focus on programming and school stuff.

    bullies try to reach it by beating everyone down untill they get beaten and realise there are some people more "creative" getting there.
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