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Thread: it's like the Force, without all the judgement

  1. #1 it's like the Force, without all the judgement 
    Forum Freshman esoterik_appeal's Avatar
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    like many of you guys, i have the predisposition to sit around and contemplate the reason for... well, things. stuff. everything. nothing. one of the temporary/incomplete conclusions i've drawn is that there isn't really any good or bad. not in universal terms anyway.

    good and bad/right and wrong are judgements that humans place on a given event in relation to their experience to it. animals do this too, on a more primative level, usually their actions are based on what is best for their survival, the survival of their offspring, and the survival of their social group (if any), and in that order. so when people say that being selfish is human nature, it is actually more true to say that is the human's animal nature. the cool thing about being human is that you can overcome this. even on a subconscious level. if anyone doubts this just watch some of the videos where the buddhist monks light themselves on fire and don't twitch a muscle until the last wisp of life leaves their body. even jesus questioned God when he was on the cross. but none of that, for now.

    so the animal has gotten us to the point where we can overcome him, to be something else. what now? well, that is the tipping point that our civilization has reached, most of it anyway. eventually enough of the population will reach this point, where, at least, the affluent west is, and be struggling for some mock type of survival. fighting over trivialities, desperately clinging to any comparative advantage they think they offer their family over the evenly matched foe that is their neighbor. either hoarding away collective confidence in thier nations' worth, or flippantly trading it for useless items they are convinced they need. ah, what a wonderful prospect for those poor third world nations to look forward to.

    what now? indeed. it is my contention that our purpose now is to, in all seriousness, become servants of God. or as near as any sane definition of God that i've ever contemplated. what is God? well, firstly i'm fairly certain it's not a "who". by our best approximation it is an "it". an abstract, a being, a mechanism, a force. not something to be bowed to, to worship. something that needs help, hands and feet on the ground, as it were, fighting the forces of the "anti-God". but those terms are a bit to loaded, and not really accurate anyway. i was only using them for connotative purposes. perhaps things make more sense when i call them by the terms i feel most comfortable with: Order (God) and Disorder (anti-God or Chaos, if you can waive the negative connotation).

    as near as i can tell the whole of the universe functions on the backs of these two competeing forces. but not competeing; they are counterbalancing, dancing. one cannot exist without the other- they define each other. and every physical object that exists has the fires of each burning inside of it. think about how your body functions, your cells, our planet, our Sun, our galaxy. all are creations of order, but function only through the hum of entropy within.

    and i should say, i realize that these are basically the tenents of most eastern philosophies. but i haven't studied eastern teaching extensively, i reasoned most of this out on my own with nudges here and there from insightful authors, eastern and western alike.

    basically we are the instruments of order, humans rose out of ever increasing ability to order their environment around them. so our next step in evolution is to accept this role, to help perpetuate Order, to do our part in the race against entropy.

    sorry to be so short in conclusion. i'm headed out and needed to get the bare bones down while i'm still on this train of thought. anyone who has braved my crazyness up to this point, i am grateful, and would be very interested in anything you have to say, add, or criticize. i'm not very well schooled in logic, so point out inconsistencies and i'll see if i can set them straight, or realign my ideas. thanks.

    peace.


    i found my calling today. it was in my pocket.
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    Forum Sophomore spidergoat's Avatar
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    I would like to point out that the human tendency towards efficiency and "order" actually accelerates entropy, while the "chaos" of a climaxed ecosystem like the rainforest prevents entropy from dissapating so rapidly by channelling energy through many different systems.


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    Forum Freshman esoterik_appeal's Avatar
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    i don't think that "efficiency" and "order" necessarily go hand and hand. the H-bomb is very efficient at what it does, namely drastically reducing the Order in a given environment.

    also, a rainforest is indeed a highly ordered environment. but it was natural force that shaped its systems. the forest didn't make a conscious decision (as far as we know) to increase the complexity and organization of its environment. humans can, however.
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  5. #4 Re: it's like the Force, without all the judgement 
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    Quote Originally Posted by esoterik_appeal
    basically we are the instruments of order, humans rose out of ever increasing ability to order their environment around them. so our next step in evolution is to accept this role, to help perpetuate Order, to do our part in the race against entropy.
    Man cannot increase the gross amount of order in the Universe... ever.

    To perform work one must "use" energy, thereby increasing entropy. We can increase order only on a local scale, taking energy from one place and putting in another. Unfortunately the second law of thermodynamics guarantees that no matter how efficiently we do this some energy is "lost" along the way.

    The best thing you can do then in the service of "order" is to do nothing.

    ~Raithere
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    I was with you until "the race against entropy". [I don't know if I agreed with you, but I got it.]

    Why would you fight entropy, the primal force?

    Maybe entropy isn't the enemy; maybe it is the goal.

    The entire universe consisting of a single coherent whole.

    [After typing that, I looked around for inspiration and thought, 'I really do have to clean my office'.]



    BTW, some animals will put the social structure before their off spring.
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    Forum Freshman esoterik_appeal's Avatar
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    you make good points, i certainly am not schooled well enough to even try to rage against Thermodynamics, though it is my understanding that is has its critics.

    but i pose this question: what is our purpose? life rises out of ever-increasing levels of organization. my thought is that we follow that path, until we can achieve a balance between our efforts and the tide of entropy. it seems to me that a sufficiently advanced civilization could at least recycle spent energy harnessed from the environment.

    how could a universe that is inherently structured for life and organization have the ultimate purpose of heat-death? and even if it is, that state is hostile to any kind of life we can imagine, and thus threatens our species. so it is our our duty to stave it off, if not halt it all together.

    think about engineering on the galactic scale, like in Contact. lifeforms working together to perpetuate the kind of universe we can inhabit.

    [After typing that, I looked around for inspiration and thought, 'I really do have to clean my office'.]
    you see? why can't you just let your office return to its "natural state"? :wink:
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by esoterik_appeal
    but i pose this question: what is our purpose? life rises out of ever-increasing levels of organization.
    Most simply life's purpose is the propagation of life. On a personal level, your purpose is yours to decide. That's what being human is about.

    it seems to me that a sufficiently advanced civilization could at least recycle spent energy harnessed from the environment.
    As far as our current understanding of the issue goes, the answer is "no". But who knows

    how could a universe that is inherently structured for life and organization have the ultimate purpose of heat-death? and even if it is, that state is hostile to any kind of life we can imagine, and thus threatens our species. so it is our our duty to stave it off, if not halt it all together.
    You have it backwards. The Universe isn't structured for life; life is structured for the Universe. The Universe is the pan, life is the cake. You don't take a cake out of the oven and think, "Gee, who build a pan especially for this cake?"

    But the fundamental forces of the Universe do inherently produce order. And I would agree that as a species our survival should be a fundamental goal. Don't worry about it too much though; we have quite a bit of time yet to figure things out.

    ~Raithere
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    Forum Freshman esoterik_appeal's Avatar
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    Most simply life's purpose is the propagation of life. On a personal level, your purpose is yours to decide. That's what being human is about.
    that makes life sound like a virus, which maybe it is, but many aspects of our intelligence, creativity, and awareness are useless toward this goal, and sometimes counteractive. i realize that it is our intelligence that enabled us to spread to every corner of the globe, but we don't seem to have done this solely out of competitive forces. we wanted to. think about how different the world would be if we had this same kind of ambition for more lofty goals instead of getting mixed up in these innane dramas we think is life.

    You have it backwards. The Universe isn't structured for life; life is structured for the Universe. The Universe is the pan, life is the cake. You don't take a cake out of the oven and think, "Gee, who build a pan especially for this cake?"
    methinks that your analogy is flawed. maybe if we could stand outside of our universe then you might think that. but if you're the cake you think: "Gee, I sure am glad I'm in this pan. It makes me possible."

    and if you're an enlightened cake then you might say to yourself: " Hey, since something was nice enough to put this pan here for me to exist in, maybe I should do something to keep it from rusting." that seems a lot more fun and better for whatever conception of soul you think you have than being a cake who says, " Oh... mygod. Did you hear about Becca? You know she's been dating that guy who thinks he's black... yeah, I know, right? So anyway, she told me she's late, but don't tell her I told you..." ad nauseum.

    we engage in this kind of behavior because our brains are stuck in neutral. if an asteroid were headed this way, then maybe we'd get bumped into gear, but is it really going to take something like that?
    i found my calling today. it was in my pocket.
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  10. #9  
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    Perhaps a truly enlightened cake would accept its role in the kitchen and prepare itself for being eaten, rather than worrying about the fate of entities over which it has no control.

    After all, what can a cake do to keep a pan from rusting? What can a human do against entropy?

    Actually, I appreciate the nobility of attempting to impose order on a chaotic system. I'm a gardener.
    But I not only appreciate the attempt at order, I know the beauty that arises when perfect order fails. Perhaps the meaning is in the interaction between order and dis-order, not in the final triumph of either.

    You seem to be equating order with organization and, therefore life. However, a completely even and symetrical distribution of all elements is perfect order. Complexity is disordered.
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  11. #10  
    Forum Freshman esoterik_appeal's Avatar
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    Perhaps the meaning is in the interaction between order and dis-order, not in the final triumph of either.
    ding ding ding ding! we have a winner! :wink: all i'm saying is that disorder has its own methods that are humming along constantly. we are products of organizational forces in the universe. we can also be tools of those forces, and one day maybe even champions. it all depends on our ability to tip the scales away from self-destruction, toward self-realization. i think our problem today is that we have no collective confidence and/or drive to accomplish anything save the militaristic and patriotic goals set before us by the very people who would benefit from these actions, and they are most certainly not the majority.
    i found my calling today. it was in my pocket.
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by esoterik_appeal
    it all depends on our ability to tip the scales away from self-destruction, toward self-realization.
    Sound like a plan.
    But I don't think I'd fit in your Army of Order.
    Without disorder there can be no serendipity.

    [I have this strange vision of you bustling around the universe, sweeping up comets and lining the planets up just so, while I roam around, picking up Venus for a closer look and absent-mindedly putting it down next to Pluto.]
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