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Thread: is Confucianism a good idea

  1. #1 is Confucianism a good idea 
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    traditional chinese Ethics is Confucius' Ethics.


    In traditional chinese society, the lower class are completely dominated by higher class.




    1) A cook cooked his own son to please his master. (Duke Huan of Qi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)



    2) A man cooked his wife to please his king (ref: Liu Bei's cannibalism? The Scholars of Shen Zhou).



    3)There are so-called 24 idols of Confucianism, a boy's stepmother wanted to kill him, then the boy begged her to kill himself, in order to please his stepmother.



    4) Confucius himself once executed many actors/actresses , he declared that they did not show enough respect to the king.



    As Hegel commented Confucianism teaches only submission.

    The chinese philosopher/write Lu Xun described Confucianism as "man eater".


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    What does any of this have to do with Confucianism? I know it's fell out of favour and been subject to an enormous amount of propaganda since the revolution. But really? The ethics of confucius are akin to a Chinese Jesus, at least when I (actually) read some of the foundational texts.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    What does any of this have to do with Confucianism? I know it's fell out of favour and been subject to an enormous amount of propaganda since the revolution. But really? The ethics of confucius are akin to a Chinese Jesus, at least when I (actually) read some of the foundational texts.


    you know nothing about Confucianism.

    -------------------------
    There are so-called 24 idols of Confucianism, a boy's stepmother wanted to kill him, then the boy begged her to kill himself, in order to please his stepmother.
    --------------------------
    this(24 idols of Confucianism) is the basic knowledge of Confucianism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    What does any of this have to do with Confucianism? I know it's fell out of favour and been subject to an enormous amount of propaganda since the revolution. But really? The ethics of confucius are akin to a Chinese Jesus, at least when I (actually) read some of the foundational texts.

    china's propaganda is telling china was the best in the world.
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  6. #5  
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    1) A cook cooked his own son to please his master. (Duke Huan of Qi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

    Yes, but Duke Huan of Qi died in 643 BCE, whilst Confucius was born in 551 BCE. There is as such no connection between that event and Confucianism.


    2) A man cooked his wife to please his king (ref: Liu Bei's cannibalism? The Scholars of Shen Zhou)

    A reference taken from a Chinese novel called the Romance of the Three Kings, written about 14 centuries after Liu Bei lived.
    The link with Confucianism is flimsy at best.

    3)There are so-called 24 idols of Confucianism, a boy's stepmother wanted to kill him, then the boy begged her to kill himself, in order to please his stepmother.

    Please provide a reference for that.

    4) Confucius himself once executed many actors/actresses , he declared that they did not show enough respect to the king.

    Again, provide a reference for that.

    As Hegel commented Confucianism teaches only submission.

    [citation needed]

    The chinese philosopher/write Lu Xun described Confucianism as "man eater".

    He did not.
    See: A Madman's Diary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    PS: Why do you go the multiple fora and post the same questions?
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    is Confucianism a good idea
    That depends on what you meant by a "good idea", and a good idea for?.

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    traditional chinese Ethics is Confucius' Ethics.
    First of all, there are various schools of historical Chinese ethics, and while Confucius's is one of them, I take it upon myself to highlight to other readers that it isn't the only school of thought regarding ethics. Please let me know if you require me to name other schools should you encounter difficulty searching for them online.

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    In traditional chinese society, the lower class are completely dominated by higher class.
    Since you have participated in the philosophy subforum, I take it that you are aware of the reasons why that is. May I ask why you have associated this phenomenon with Confucius' school of thought?

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    2) A man cooked his wife to please his king (ref: Liu Bei's cannibalism? The Scholars of Shen Zhou).
    You do realize that there is a difference between the historical document of 三國志 vs that of the novel 三國演義.

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    3)There are so-called 24 idols of Confucianism, a boy's stepmother wanted to kill him, then the boy begged her to kill himself, in order to please his stepmother.
    It has been several years since I've last touched the materials, may I ask which of the following fits the above story?

    1. 孝感動天
    2. 親嘗湯藥
    3. 嚙指心痛
    4. 單衣順母
    5. 負米養親
    6. 賣身葬父
    7. 鹿乳奉親
    8. 行佣供母
    9. 懷橘遺親
    10. 乳姑不怠
    11. 恣蚊飽血
    12. 臥冰求鯉
    13. 為母埋兒
    14. 搤虎救父
    15. 棄官尋母
    16. 嘗糞憂心
    17. 戲彩娱親
    18. 拾桑供母
    19. 扇枕温衾
    20. 涌泉躍鯉
    21. 聞雷泣墓
    22. 刻木事親
    23. 哭竹生筍
    24. 滌親溺器


    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    4) Confucius himself once executed many actors/actresses , he declared that they did not show enough respect to the king.
    I am unfamiliar with this particular incident, may I ask that you provide a source so that I may validate its historicity and comment after?

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    As Hegel commented Confucianism teaches only submission.

    The chinese philosopher/write Lu Xun described Confucianism as "man eater".
    I do not much care for argument for authority, particular when one quotes notable figures and their opinions on the subjectivity of moral and ethical behaviour. Do you have anything else to add from your study on the subject and in your own words?
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    3)There are so-called 24 idols of Confucianism, a boy's stepmother wanted to kill him, then the boy begged her to kill himself, in order to please his stepmother.
    It has been several years since I've last touched the materials, may I ask which of the following fits the above story?

    Where can I find the list in English? I have never heard of these idols.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  9. #8  
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    to scoobydoo1,

    I think you are funny, since you know Confucianism well.


    you listed 24 idols of Confucianism.

    The No 13. 為母埋兒

    He buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    What does any of this have to do with Confucianism? I know it's fell out of favour and been subject to an enormous amount of propaganda since the revolution. But really? The ethics of confucius are akin to a Chinese Jesus, at least when I (actually) read some of the foundational texts.


    you know nothing about Confucianism.

    -------------------------
    There are so-called 24 idols of Confucianism, a boy's stepmother wanted to kill him, then the boy begged her to kill himself, in order to please his stepmother.
    --------------------------
    this(24 idols of Confucianism) is the basic knowledge of Confucianism.
    If what you mean is: 'I know nothing about Confucianism' you'd be absolutely correct, none of what you said has any direct correlation to Confucianism.
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Where can I find the list in English? I have never heard of these idols.
    I wouldn't necessarily call them "idols", but they (the stories) tend to represent a specific moral sentiment if taken in the appropriate context. I'm afraid the materials I've read were written in Mandarin, and the elective that these was brought up in weren't particularly in depth, but what was conveyed was the (for lack of a more suitable phrase) moral of the story regarding filial piety; so to speak. Perhaps the following link may help.

    The Twenty-four Filial Exemplars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    3)There are so-called 24 idols of Confucianism, a boy's stepmother wanted to kill him, then the boy begged her to kill himself, in order to please his stepmother.
    It has been several years since I've last touched the materials, may I ask which of the following fits the above story?

    Where can I find the list in English? I have never heard of these idols.


    Here.
    The Twenty-four Filial Exemplars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    any these idols were not good idols.

    They were crazy people.
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    TO Trivium

    you said "If what you mean is: 'I know nothing about Confucianism' you'd be absolutely correct, none of what you said has any direct correlation to Confucianism. "



    as I mentioned before
    this(24 idols of Confucianism) is the basic knowledge of Confucianism.
    so you do not know Confucianism.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    TO Trivium

    you said "If what you mean is: 'I know nothing about Confucianism' you'd be absolutely correct, none of what you said has any direct correlation to Confucianism. "



    as I mentioned before
    this(24 idols of Confucianism) is the basic knowledge of Confucianism.
    so you do not know Confucianism.
    The 24 idols aren't even part of the standard Confucian classical texts, in fact I don't see why they should have any weight on Confucianism.
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  15. #14  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Where can I find the list in English? I have never heard of these idols.
    I wouldn't necessarily call them "idols", but they (the stories) tend to represent a specific moral sentiment if taken in the appropriate context. I'm afraid the materials I've read were written in Mandarin, and the elective that these was brought up in weren't particularly in depth, but what was conveyed was the (for lack of a more suitable phrase) moral of the story regarding filial piety; so to speak. Perhaps the following link may help.

    The Twenty-four Filial Exemplars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Thank you for the link.
    I managed to find a summary of the stories by D.K. Jordan(*) and it allows me to comment on this:
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat
    The No 13. 為母埋兒

    He buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?
    Yes, and whilst digging the grave, he found a cauldron of gold:
    Quote Originally Posted by 13th Filial Exemplar
    In the Hn dynasty the family of Guō J was poor. He had a three-year-old son. His mother sometimes divided her food with the child. J said to his wife: “[Because we are] very poor, we cannot provide for Mother. Our son is sharing Mother's food. Why not bury this son?” He was digging the pit three feet deep when he struck a caldron of gold. On it [an inscription] read: “No official may take this nor may any other person seize it.”
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    as I mentioned before
    this(24 idols of Confucianism) is the basic knowledge of Confucianism.
    so you do not know Confucianism.

    Have you read the Analects?


    (*) Members are advised to consult the link in post #16.
    Last edited by Cogito Ergo Sum; February 4th, 2014 at 07:05 AM.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    The No 13. 為母埋兒

    He buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?
    May I ask that you relay the complete story of 為母埋兒 for your audience? Do note that should you choose to leave out any aspect of the story of a filial son and his intentions to bury his son, I will take it upon myself to point them out.
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    Thank you for the link.
    I managed to find a summary of the stories by D.K. Jordan

    ...

    Yes, and whilst digging the grave, he found a cauldron of gold
    I think the word used in some western texts calls them paragons instead of idols; of filial piety. The below link to a Rice University's page also mentions the stories, and if any causal readers are interested, they too may take a look at all twenty four stories and determine for themselves the sentiments they represent.

    24 Paragons Filial Piety
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    The No 13. 為母埋兒

    He buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?
    May I ask that you relay the complete story of 為母埋兒 for your audience? Do note that should you choose to leave out any aspect of the story of a filial son and his intentions to bury his son, I will take it upon myself to point them out.

    scoobydoo1, I said you a little funny,


    為母埋兒
    it says He want to buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?

    you just want to fool these people who can not read in chinese, right? hahhaha

    here is the story
    為母埋兒. 漢郭巨,家貧。有子三歲,母嘗減食與之。巨謂妻曰:“貧乏不能供母,子又分母之食,盍埋此子?兒可再有,母 不可復得。”妻不敢違。

    people can find a translator, lol
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    I said you a little funny,

    為母埋兒
    it says He buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?

    you just want to fool these people, who can not read in chinese, right? hahhaha
    There are multiple sources of translations for all twenty four stories, and readers do not have to take my word for it. Cogito Ergo Sum and myself have given two separate links to the stories written in English for those who are interested. Your highly suspicious actions of only using the direct and crude translation of the story title plus a dreadful summation of the synopsis in your OP however does not paint you in any positive light I'm afraid.
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    The No 13. 為母埋兒

    He buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?
    May I ask that you relay the complete story of 為母埋兒 for your audience? Do note that should you choose to leave out any aspect of the story of a filial son and his intentions to bury his son, I will take it upon myself to point them out.
    scoobydoo1, I said you a little funny,


    為母埋兒
    it says He want to buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?

    you just want to fool these people who can not read in chinese, right? hahhaha

    here is the story
    為母埋兒. 漢郭巨,家貧。有子三歲,母嘗減食與之。巨謂妻曰:“貧乏不能供母,子又分母之食,盍埋此子?兒可再有,母 不可復得。”妻不敢違。

    people can find a translator, lol
    Why did you even post this thread since you've already made your mind up to completely ignore evidence?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    I think the word used in some western texts calls them paragons instead of idols; of filial piety.

    That is what caused my initial confusion.
    When member steelcat spoke of idols, I associated it with idolatry, despite the fact that Confucius did not mention something about idols in the Analects (if I recall it correctly).

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat
    4) Confucius himself once executed many actors/actresses , he declared that they did not show enough respect to the king.

    As Hegel commented Confucianism teaches only submission.

    You still have to provide sources for this, as requested in posts #5 and #6.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    The No 13. 為母埋兒

    He buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?
    May I ask that you relay the complete story of 為母埋兒 for your audience? Do note that should you choose to leave out any aspect of the story of a filial son and his intentions to bury his son, I will take it upon myself to point them out.
    scoobydoo1, I said you a little funny,


    為母埋兒
    it says He want to buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?

    you just want to fool these people who can not read in chinese, right? hahhaha

    here is the story
    為母埋兒. 漢郭巨,家貧。有子三歲,母嘗減食與之。巨謂妻曰:“貧乏不能供母,子又分母之食,盍埋此子?兒可再有,母 不可復得。”妻不敢違。

    people can find a translator, lol
    Why did you even post this thread since you've already made your mind up to completely ignore evidence?
    --------------------


    Trivium, you can NOT understand things. " completely ignore evidence"? hahahhaha
    what I said is the basic knowledge of china.
    24 Paragons Filial Piety
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    The No 13. 為母埋兒

    He buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?
    May I ask that you relay the complete story of 為母埋兒 for your audience? Do note that should you choose to leave out any aspect of the story of a filial son and his intentions to bury his son, I will take it upon myself to point them out.
    scoobydoo1, I said you a little funny,


    為母埋兒
    it says He want to buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?

    you just want to fool these people who can not read in chinese, right? hahhaha

    here is the story
    為母埋兒. 漢郭巨,家貧。有子三歲,母嘗減食與之。巨謂妻曰:“貧乏不能供母,子又分母之食,盍埋此子?兒可再有,母 不可復得。”妻不敢違。

    people can find a translator, lol
    Why did you even post this thread since you've already made your mind up to completely ignore evidence?
    --------------------


    Trivium, you can NOT understand things. " completely ignore evidence"? hahahhaha
    what I said is the basic knowledge of china.
    24 Paragons Filial Piety
    Right. It's not my job to educate you so i'll quote what was posted earlier:
    "
    The text of
    The Twenty-Four Filial Exemplars
    has stood for generations as the
    prime folk document on what filial piety is
    all about. The collection is not by any means
    part of the Confucian canon, and indeed tends to attract little but scorn from Chinese
    intellectuals. But until the Communist regime cam
    paigned to suppress the text as part of
    its campaign against tradition, there was proba
    bly not a bookstore in China that did not
    have copies available, and in the course
    of the 1990s new editions came flowing back
    into Chinese bookstores once again. The tales
    are known individually to most Chinese,
    and the collection has spawned many imitato
    rs containing other stories, sometimes
    overlapping with these. "
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    When member steelcat spoke of idols, I associated it with idolatry, despite the fact that Confucius did not mention something about idols in the Analects (if I recall it correctly).
    You are correct to my knowledge. The Mandarin language and its text requires some approximation when translating them into other languages so as to not loose the essence. A direct word-for-word translation is often discouraged due to the nature of the language itself; as evident in steelcat's OP, but fortunately there are others who are able to serve as a safeguard against such attempts if it is within our means and ability to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    I said you a little funny,

    為母埋兒
    it says He buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?

    you just want to fool these people, who can not read in chinese, right? hahhaha
    There are multiple sources of translations for all twenty four stories, and readers do not have to take my word for it. Cogito Ergo Sum and myself have given two separate links to the stories written in English for those who are interested. Your highly suspicious actions of only using the direct and crude translation of the story title plus a dreadful summation of the synopsis in your OP however does not paint you in any positive light I'm afraid.
    ------------------------

    to scoobydoo1,

    you are a funny man?
    chinese were ruled horrible in the past 2000 years, no thanks to Confucianism,


    Traditional chinese Ethics is Confucius' Ethics.
    In traditional chinese society, the lower class are completely dominated by higher class.



    for the last 2000 years, chinese against the kings would die horrible.
    They would be chopped into at least 1000 pieces.


    Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Cogito Ergo Sum View Post
    When member steelcat spoke of idols, I associated it with idolatry, despite the fact that Confucius did not mention something about idols in the Analects (if I recall it correctly).
    You are correct to my knowledge. The Mandarin language and its text requires some approximation when translating them into other languages so as to not loose the essence. A direct word-for-word translation is often discouraged due to the nature of the language itself; as evident in steelcat's OP, but fortunately there are others who are able to serve as a safeguard against such attempts if it is within our means and ability to do so.
    scoobydoo1, I wont say you are a liar.


    but you should stop try to give fake info to people who can not read in chinese.

    I think you are not smart enough to do it.
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    Traditional chinese Ethics is Confucius' Ethics.
    In traditional chinese society, the lower class are completely dominated by higher class.

    Already addressed and questioned in post #6.

    for the last 2000 years, chinese against the kings would die horrible.

    China was ruled by emperors (until 1912), not by kings.

    They would be chopped into at least 1000 pieces.

    Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    From your link:
    According to the Confucian principle of filial piety or xio to alter one's body or to cut the body are considered unfilial practices (see Xiao Jing). Lingchi therefore contravenes the demands of xiao. (...) Lingchi could be used for the torture and execution of a living person, or applied as an act of humiliation after death. It was meted out for major offenses such as treason, mass murder, patricide or the murder of one's master or employer.
    It was not used until 905 CE, more than 1000 years after Confucianism appeared in China.


    I am still waiting for your references as asked in post #20.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    I said you a little funny,

    為母埋兒
    it says He buried his baby son alive for serve his mother. right?

    you just want to fool these people, who can not read in chinese, right? hahhaha
    There are multiple sources of translations for all twenty four stories, and readers do not have to take my word for it. Cogito Ergo Sum and myself have given two separate links to the stories written in English for those who are interested. Your highly suspicious actions of only using the direct and crude translation of the story title plus a dreadful summation of the synopsis in your OP however does not paint you in any positive light I'm afraid.
    ------------------------

    to scoobydoo1,

    you are a funny man?
    chinese were ruled horrible in the past 2000 years, no thanks to Confucianism,


    Traditional chinese Ethics is Confucius' Ethics.
    In traditional chinese society, the lower class are completely dominated by higher class.



    for the last 2000 years, chinese against the kings would die horrible.
    They would be chopped into at least 1000 pieces.


    Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    The class system still exists in China (actually it's incredibly bad in China). You can't abolish class because it's part of social stratification.
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    to Cogito Ergo Sum,

    I have no interest to teach you.
    you should celebrate for you were NOT ruled by a Confucianism government.



    For the last 2000 years, chinese were ruled horribly .
    if people against the ruling class, the punishment were


    Nine familial exterminations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and, they would be chopped into at least 1000 pieces.

    Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by steelcat; February 4th, 2014 at 08:02 AM.
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    I have no interest to teach you.

    That is correct, otherwise you would have been factual up to now.

    are you chinese?

    My location as provided under my username should be an indication.

    if not? you should celebrate for you were NOT ruled by a Confucianism government.

    Please provide evidence that the current Chinese government is ruled by the principles as set by Confucius.

    for the last 2000 years, chinese were ruled horribly .

    You have already said that in post #25.
    You still need to back this up (the same goes for the claims concerning the killing of actors and the statement allegedly made by Hegel).

    if people against the ruling class, the punishmennt were

    Nine familial exterminations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and, they would be chopped into at least 1000 pieces.

    Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The former punishment was already executed at least 1000 years before Confucianism was prevalent in China.

    From your link:
    Confucian principles also play a major role in the outline of the punishment; regarding the killing of children, such an act is disapproved by Confucian ethics, under the Mencius "offspring is not a sinner" (Classical Chinese: 罪人不孥) principle, and so children under a certain age are often exempt from death.
    The latter is covered in post #27.

    Both punishments were abolished in the beginning of the 20th century and have no connection to Confucianism.
    MrMojo1 likes this.
    "The only safe rule is to dispute only with those of your acquaintance of whom you know that they possess sufficient intelligence and self-respect not to advance absurdities; to appeal to reason and not to authority, and to listen to reason and yield to it; and, finally, to be willing to accept reason even from an opponent, and to be just enough to bear being proved to be in the wrong."

    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    For the last 2000 years, chinese were ruled horribly .
    if people against the ruling class, the punishment were


    Nine familial exterminations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and, they would be chopped into at least 1000 pieces.

    Slow slicing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    ---------------------------------------------------


    Cogito Ergo Sum said: Both punishments were abolished in the beginning of the 20th century.


    Thanks!
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    I wont say you are a liar.

    but you should stop try to give fake info to people who can not read in chinese.
    In what way have I provided false information? Have I not provided two separate links to the relevant material that are translated into English for casual readers?

    Do remember that what you have written in the OP, that I shall quote below in it's entirety differs quite drastically from the actual story; of which I had to ask you to clarify which of the twenty four you may have meant.

    Quote Originally Posted by steelcat View Post
    3)There are so-called 24 idols of Confucianism, a boy's stepmother wanted to kill him, then the boy begged her to kill himself, in order to please his stepmother.
    It would be an amazing feat for anyone to have been able to identify which story you had in mind (short of being able to read your mind) by comparing the above to a close approximation of the story I have heard in my elective class that is similar in essence to what is given in the Rice University link I have provided in post #16.

    Number Thirteen - Burying His Son To Save His Mother: Guo Ju

    Guo Ju lived during the Han Dynasty with his wife, his aging mother, and their three-year-old son. The household was extremely poor, and the four of them often found it difficult to make ends meet. There was rarely enough food to go around. The grandmother, being fond of the baby, would often take her scanty portion of food and feed it to her grandson. She never got enough nutrition and frequently went hungry. As the baby grew, the elderly woman's health deteriorated, and before long, she fell sick.

    Since Guo Ju could afford neither nutritious food nor medicine to heal his mother, his heart felt great consternation. He discussed the situation with his wife, saying, "We are unfilial children. We can't feed our mother properly, and now she is sick! What are we going to do?" His wife had no solution. Guo Ju couldn't sleep at night, wrestling with his problem. His heart was agitated and upset.

    In desperation, finally he resolved to part with his own son, in order to serve his first allegiance, his mother, in proper fashion, during the final days of her life. "Perhaps we can have more children in the future," he told his wife, "but mother in her old age deserves our best offerings and care. Don't you agree?"

    Guo Ju's wife, although she loved her infant son, was also a devoted filial daughter. Nodding her head and weeping with grief, she agreed to go along with the heart-rending solution to their problem. The two of them carried the infant into the back yard, and with a planter's hoe, Guo Ju dug a hole in the earth. Before he had dug down three feet, he heard a loud thunk! and felt something solid beneath the hoe-blade. He dug more carefully, and unearthed a sturdy metal chest. Opening the cover, to their astonishment, they discovered a pile of golden coins and silver bars, worth a king's ransom. "Oh, look!" the husband and wife exclaimed. Written on top of the casket was a sentence: "A gift to the filial son Guo Ju."

    The couple took the fortune in gold to the local magistrate, but owing to the inscription on the lid, and the unusual circumstances surrounding its appearance, the government officials returned the money to the husband and wife. Guo Ju promptly found a doctor and medicine for his mother, and was able to keep his son alive. The family ever after had sufficient supply of life's necessities and enjoyed the blessings due to filial children.

    A verse in his honor says,
    Guo Ju wished to .serve his aging mother;
    He buried his son, so that she might live,
    The gods rewarded him with golden coins;
    Their brilliant gleam lit up his humble hut.

    24 Paragons Filial Piety
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    To scoobydoo1

    you said:
    You are correct to my knowledge. The Mandarin language and its text requires some approximation when translating them into other languages so as to not loose the essence. A direct word-for-word translation is often discouraged due to the nature of the language itself; as evident in steelcat's OP, but fortunately there are others who are able to serve as a safeguard against such attempts if it is within our means and ability to do so.

    -------------------------------------
    your talking is ridiculous
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    steelcat

    Cut out the insults.

    You're right on the edge of earning yourself a suspension.

    If you haven't yet read the Forum Guidelines, I suggest you do so before posting any more comments.

    (And btw, the silly font size stuff looks really silly.)
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    steelcat

    Cut out the insults.

    You're right on the edge of earning yourself a suspension.

    If you haven't yet read the Forum Guidelines, I suggest you do so before posting any more comments.

    (And btw, the silly font size stuff looks really silly.)

    to adelady,


    1) then why you provide the "silly font size"?
    - you think it is silly, and you provided it?


    2) I only provided facts, there are no insults.


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    Don't respond to moderator comments. Just take them under advisement.
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    I don't have an in dept understanding of confucianism. But i think i understood that most of the extreams in chinese/Korean/Japanese societies originate from confucianism. An extreme form of meritocracy, i think i read some where been referred to as confucian hell.

    Stuff like working extremely long hours. Studying extremely hard at school. People in east asian are obsessed with education. Korean children are among the most unhappy in the world. Even the Korean government acknowledged that over education is destroying society, and they try to do something about it, imagine that. People there think, that if you are educated(=degrees) you are smart, and if you aren't, you are stupid.

    I read, that for example some chinese women while dating will brutally ask you how much money you are making. And thats apparently culturally acceptable...

    Basically, its a ruthless unforgiving meritocracy, and you are worthless sub-shit if you don't distinguish your self....

    Some one wants to correct my misunderstandings???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantum immortal View Post
    I don't have an in dept understanding of confucianism. But i think i understood that most of the extreams in chinese/Korean/Japanese societies originate from confucianism. An extreme form of meritocracy, i think i read some where been referred to as confucian hell.

    Stuff like working extremely long hours. Studying extremely hard at school. People in east asian are obsessed with education. Korean children are among the most unhappy in the world. Even the Korean government acknowledged that over education is destroying society, and they try to do something about it, imagine that. People there think, that if you are educated(=degrees) you are smart, and if you aren't, you are stupid.

    I read, that for example some chinese women while dating will brutally ask you how much money you are making. And thats apparently culturally acceptable...

    Basically, its a ruthless unforgiving meritocracy, and you are worthless sub-shit if you don't distinguish your self....

    Some one wants to correct my misunderstandings???
    That sounds exactly like Modern China so if they're trying to avoid confucianism they're not doing a very good job.
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    Some one wants to correct my misunderstandings???
    Well, I don't know about the societies generally. What I do remember is what one of our staff warned us about.

    She had previously run an international school in the area but not actually in mainland China. She warned us that we would have to "prime" Chinese parents when their child was soon to receive one of the little (quite trivial) prizes we gave students for improvement in their learning. She pointed out that the Chinese - and presumably Koreans as well - had a heap of really non-Australian ideas about childhood. Whereas we think of childhood as being relatively carefree and certainly with lots of play time, their attitude was that childhood was about hard work and duty. If any fun was to be had it was for adults who'd earned it, not for children who'd not yet put in the effort. And, true to form, when one kid got her prize we'd at least done enough so that the parent didn't snatch it from her and accuse her of stealing it ... but she did say to the kid that she didn't deserve any reward for just doing what she was told.

    We also had to "train" Chinese parents, along with too many others, that we really did mean it when we said that the homework from tuition should take no more than half an hour a week. We were more interested in students actually reaching small specific weekly learning targets than wearing themselves out studying all hours and probably getting more tired than educated. This was sometimes pretty hard to get across.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    interesting story... conforms to the stereotype of dragon mothers...
    An other example with Japan, they have a proper word for "death from overwork"(karoshi). So it happens so often, that they felt the need to make a word for it.... in japan, they have entrance exams even for kindergarden ....
    if this is Confucianism, then that answers the question of the OP

    or its just corrupted Confucianism, like with Christianity were we are supposed to love each other, and then is used as pretext to slaughter each other.....
    or something else?

    If this is not from Confucianism, then why so many east Asian countries are brutal meritocracies???
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    conforms to the stereotype of dragon mothers...
    It ain't just the mothers.

    then why so many east Asian countries are brutal meritocracies???
    When it comes to China, it's strictly a numbers game. There are 18 million children born each year in China. I don't know exactly how many university places are available but it's nowhere near 9 million which would be 50%. (In some countries in the OECD, over 70% attend university. BBC News - How about 80% going to university?)

    So every stage of education is basically a culling operation because there are far far too many potential students for the places available. Four years ago in 2010 there were 10 million students applying for 6.6 million places. So that requires a 1/3 fail rate in this last do-or-die process. And those 10 million applicants are simply the survivors of a pretty ruthless fail or exclude process in the preceding 12 years that got rid of 45%, 8 million, along the way. Chinese students suffer as university entrance exams get a grip | Education | The Guardian
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
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    i think you took my statement too literally. I wasn't referring to just entrance exams.
    There's clearly an issue in these societies to begin with. I suspect it's the result of social engineering from the ruling elites, since times immemorable...

    Is confucianism actually advocating a society like this? Or its just got perverted, like Christianism got perverted so many times....

    To try to respond to the OP question.
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    Is confucianism actually advocating a society like this? Or its just got perverted, like Christianism got perverted so many times....
    No. I think it's just a matter of catching up.

    It wasn't so very long ago in Europe that university study was restricted to a few privileged members of the aristocracy and the rich elites. They started to "democratise" only a few decades ago. If you'd looked at Britain's or France's universities in, say, 1950 you'd notice that the vast majority of their populations simply presumed that they'd never get the chance to go to university. The expansion of the universities and the increasing numbers of potential students have proceeded in reasonable balance in those countries, though not always. China just hasn't been able to keep up with the vast and fast increase of student numbers in the same way.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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  45. #44  
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    No. I think it's just a matter of catching up.

    It wasn't so very long ago in Europe that university study was restricted to a few privileged members of the aristocracy and the rich elites. ..... China just hasn't been able to keep up with the vast and fast increase of student numbers in the same way.
    Is it possibly related to the recent increases in general wealthiness in China compared to the general poverty that existed?
    Even in the west it was not until recently that students could generally afford secondary education and even now tuitions need to be subsidized and student loans made available for the majority.
    If it is related to economics both the rising university enrollments and the work ethic being drummed into children might have nothing at all to do with Confucianism.
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    we are over educated, we simply don't need all this schooling
    People over educate them selves, to compete with each other.
    because employers use certificates as a way to filter people.
    Its a bubble, and it will blow eventually.
    Politicians made it worse with subsidies for short term political gain.
    The "knowledge economy" its political hot air.
    If they aren't subsidized, then its private debt that fuels the bubble.
    In the US and also china, all these people will find them selves with a Ph.d at mac donalds and indebted for life.
    If its subsidized by a welfare state, then the state will be in economic trouble, because its doing a negative investment.

    Its a very long topic to discuss here. It would completely derail the thread
    wikipedia is a good start, it has some good external links.
    Credential inflation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    good link from there
    Gazette | Feature: Failing Grades
    other good link
    Randall Collins on Credential Inflation (2002)

    anyway, my point is. This collective madness is an other phenomenon, its global. There's over education everywhere, but not everywhere you see the extremes of east Asia. There culture inflates the effect.
    Take the example of Japan and Korea. They too are ruthless meritocracies. They aren't exactly poor.
    Japan has entrance exams even at kindergarden, there's karoshi etc.... Korean kids are studying 14 hours a day, they are the most unhappy of the OCDE. The problem is there cultures.....
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    i killed the thread? B[
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    No, the problem is that this thread could not live up to the standards of a scientific discussion.

    The O.P. was trying to demonstrate that Confucianism, as an Eastern philosophical and ethical system(*), was not advisable.
    However, the evidences were flimsy at best (cf. posts #5, #6, #18, #27, #30 and #32) and as such the O.P. had no justification to hold his/her position.
    The subsequent discussion about the social, economical and political structures in China, Japan and Korea fall, as far as I can tell, beyond the original scope of the O.P.

    It would have been far better if one presented the question and gave actual references to Confucian material.
    Then we could have discussed whether or not the words of Confucius are still applicable in the modern civilizations of the 21st century, whether or not the ethical principles of Confucianism are to be preferred over other philosophical and ethical systems (such as secular humanism), whether or not Confucianism should be included into the governmental structures of a country, etc. That would have yielded interesting discussions.


    (*) I am hesitant to call Confucianism a religion. Another point we could have discussed.
    Last edited by Cogito Ergo Sum; February 17th, 2014 at 09:52 AM.
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    ~ Arthur Schopenhauer, The Art of Being Right: 38 Ways to Win an Argument (1831), Stratagem XXXVIII.
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    Confucius was a wise man and a great philosopher in GLOBAL terms, but like any human he was a product of his era. He most likely championed social stratification to justify the needs/attitudes of the ruling class in his society (of which he was a part).

    We balk at people like Kant saying Africans are inferior, but then duh, Europe was enslaving and transporting many thousands of Africans to Americas every year, could he expected to say anything different?
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    So, Confucius is best known for his cannibalistic cooking book?

    I dont want to weigh in on cherry picked views, and I probably dislike stratification/casts/classes more than anyone, but dark age hierarchies in Europe were not a pick nick, not primarily because of religion but because they were dark age hierarchies ~What? If you are slapped turn to present the other cheek? Very good, we will take that into consideration. Love, forgiving, compassion, yes all very good. Ok where were we again? Ah yes, Now burn them. We need to hurry up if we want to have time to torture, disembowel, strangle and rip-apart those that dont obey my orders~
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    Who even says hierarchy is wrong? In a general sense, it's innate to humans. However, of course the ancient Chinese were subject to Enlightenment-based philosophy promoting equality... haha..

    Only fools endorse "morals".
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Only fools endorse "morals".
    What in the world does THAT mean?
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    As it states. Morals don't exist.
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    "Who even says hierarchy is wrong?"
    Not those killed by hierarchies. And Monarchs, Kings, Tyrants, Fascists and Dictators also probably wont be saying there's anything wrong with it.
    "innate"
    Im not exactly sure what you mean, walking is innate/natural/common too, but NewYork to Paris on a plane is preferable. So innate can be good but not automatically better.
    Last edited by icewendigo; February 24th, 2014 at 09:43 PM.
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    I superficially read .... the wikipedia article on Confucianism. In there, there is also talk about humanism, altruism, resisting unjust orders from superiors etc... I understand, that at least in theory, Confucianism advocates a reasonable submission to authority. Superiors have responsibilities over there subordinates. With out some hierarchy of superiors, you can't have a functional state/society. Nothing tyrannical there.


    That was in theory. If i take the example of christianism that i know beater. Christianism in theory is about loving each other. In practice it had been used as an excuse for wars, and other bad stuff.


    So my conclusion is, there is nothing wrong with confucianism per see. The imperial system in China interpreted it in a certain extremist way. That was however not the spirit of Confucianism. Keep in mind i'm saying this after just reading wikipedia.


    Why the elites interpret it that way? I guess the elites were too greedy and wanted to milk the people as much as they could... That was probably the emperors fault for allowing it. Or maybe it was a political concession? Could an emperor have fixed the system without losing his position?
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    "Who even says hierarchy is wrong?"
    Not those killed by hierarchies. And Monarchs, Kings, Tyrants, Fascists and Dictators also probably wont be saying there's anything wrong with it.
    "innate"
    Im not exactly sure what you mean, walking is innate/natural/common too, but NewYork to Paris on a plane is preferable. So innate can be good but not automatically better.
    Well liberal democracy is bull, as most know.

    And yes, innate, this is well documented with many studies to support it.

    China is not perfect, I'd say it's one of humanity's great cultures in terms of its contribution. And the USA is not perfect either, it promotes equality yet lets murderers go free for flagrant racial killings...
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