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Thread: Does the truth really matter? (no answer)

  1. #1 Does the truth really matter? (no answer) 
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    Scientists today work their butts off to find answers to the deep dark secrets of the universe. But is it the truth? or does it just work? Chances are, it's not the truth (with the exception of mathematics since it is based off of logic).

    The main reason for this stems from the idea that we cannot see the true nature of reality. Does that mean that there is one, correct way to observe our universe? If so, would it be God's perception of it? Or does it mean that we as humans are limited in the amount of ways we perceive reality (we cant directly observe higher dimensions, etc). If we cant see the "true nature of reality" because we aren't getting the whole picture due to our limited forms of observation, does it matter? If so why?

    I apologize for not putting much personal input into this question. I would love to hear some opinions.
    Thank you


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    I'm not even 100% sure mathematics would qualify as pure truth even if I believe it to be true, I've heard argued it also comes from physical observation.

    I'm not sure what to answer, but this does relate to the kind of stretch theoretical physicists go through to advance their field by trying to disprove the past knowledge and improve it with a higher understanding.

    Of course we're vastly limited as human, at first by our eyes, which only see some of the light, and now by our tools, ideas, the speed of light... We keep pushing our limits and get closer to the roots though. When I first heard about hawking's theory of membrane universe at multiple dimensions, at first I thought "what kind of drug is he on?". Now I see some beauty in it, but it doesn't get me much closer to understanding it, or understanding why physicist praise him for what seems like a random untestable crazy idea.

    P.S : I didn't really answer to the first question, cause you could write a book about it, then again, as far as I'm concerned, it may be the ONLY thing that matters.


    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
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  4. #3  
    Northern Horse Whisperer Moderator scheherazade's Avatar
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    In science, there is no 'truth' as I understand it, merely repeatable observations that remain consistent, usually explainable by the prevailing theory on the subject.
    We are embedded in the very system that we seek to observe and explain, which does tend to complicate matters somewhat. It is what it is, regardless of how we choose to define it.
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    God's perception of it? If God is everything and nothing, and the universe is everything and nothing, we can assume that the universe is God... We are the method in which the universe perceives itself, therefore our perception of the universe is God's perception of the universe, and thus our way is the correct way, if such a silly notion can have any meaning. Does the truth matter? Does anything matter? I can't answer that for you, even if I know the answer. You have to find the answer yourself.
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  6. #5  
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    I've been in the sciences for decades. Never read any research that is seeking 'the truth'. Science is about knowledge. There is no end game. Also no 'dark secrets'. There are unknowns. A 5 year old may not know how to tie his shoe lace but it isn't a 'dark secret'. The great thing about science is that it reveals just how fascinating reality is.
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  7. #6  
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    In fact, in mathematics, it be better to never use the word "true". "Valid" is sufficient. All mathematics statements, at least implicitly, start "if". If the hypotheses, all postulates, axioms, etc., for the mathematical system you are working on, are true, then the conclusion is true. But the proof says nothing about whether those are or are no true.
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  8. #7  
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    What is "Gods' perception"?
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
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  9. #8  
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    Does the truth really matter?
    Would you rather know the truth or believe you know the truth?

    Only if you prefer the first part of that statement does the truth matter.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  10. #9  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just View Post
    Scientists today work their butts off to find answers to the deep dark secrets of the universe. But is it the truth? or does it just work? Chances are, it's not the truth (with the exception of mathematics since it is based off of logic).

    The main reason for this stems from the idea that we cannot see the true nature of reality. Does that mean that there is one, correct way to observe our universe? If so, would it be God's perception of it? Or does it mean that we as humans are limited in the amount of ways we perceive reality (we cant directly observe higher dimensions, etc). If we cant see the "true nature of reality" because we aren't getting the whole picture due to our limited forms of observation, does it matter? If so why?

    I apologize for not putting much personal input into this question. I would love to hear some opinions.
    Thank you
    The fact that we have programs that pursue ever greater knowledge is very satisfying to me. I like the idea that my personal understanding of the universe is constantly increasing. I like the fact that our instrumentation is improving at the fastest pace it ever has in the entirety of the human species, and it's still picking up speed.

    If you could travel back to Roman times, with the knowledge and understanding you have now. Do you think you could make them understand the universe as you do? I really doubt it, as a matter of fact, you might have to fake not knowing in order to survive. People don't like having their beliefs challenged. It takes very special people that can change the worlds understanding. Most of us just knowing what we know couldn't do it.

    There may be the real truth of the universe, that is much different than we currently believe. But I can clearly see that our current understanding of the universe is getting closer to the truth over time. We are making progress and greater understanding. We are pushing the limits of the very large and the very small. My only regret is that my life will be over before I know as much as I want to know.
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  11. #10  
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    I like the Rome idea, thag could be a fun game or movie.It would indeed take at the very least a lot of care to have a hope of changing minds.
    If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
    A.E
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  12. #11  
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    Reality "matters". Right?

    Explaining reality is essentially a quest to improve oneself, to be "likened" with "reality".

    Is a dispute with such an idea lesser than other arguments about truth?
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  13. #12  
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    Here is my take on the subject......from a non scientist..

    I think in different things, "truth" and "believe" mean different things.

    I think in Science, "truth" equals proof. You have a theory and you prove it with facts. It isn't belief.

    In Math.....well 2+2=4 and that is "truth" You don't need to believe it, it is a fact.

    In theatre and music "Truth" doesn't exist, because it is imagination, however it has to be BELIEVED. No proof or theory is required, just the ability to take an audience and make them believe the story.
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    "Believe" is when a situation "events" without your scientific forewarning that had all the checks and measure incorporated in that forewarning.... right....that you now have to believe, because no one else you know exists that can in explain in what you thought was a science is no longer really effective because of some type of "blind-eye" effect right?
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  15. #14  
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    Are you looking into a blind spot? A natural blind-spot? And why?
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    Is anything from the sun coming your way?
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  17. #16  
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    Is there any science behind this possibility?
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by beingNailed View Post
    "Believe" is when a situation "events" without your scientific forewarning that had all the checks and measure incorporated in that forewarning.... right....that you now have to believe, because no one else you know exists that can in explain in what you thought was a science is no longer really effective because of some type of "blind-eye" effect right?
    Sorry, this didn't make much sense to me and I read it three times.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by beingNailed View Post
    Is anything from the sun coming your way?
    yep....SUN RAYS...
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  20. #19  
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    Babe, we're about to encounter something even the Sun can't dispute.
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    The limited footage from this planet at this time of such a described event is testament to the idea of scientific complacency we're all use to yes?
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by beingNailed View Post
    Babe, we're about to encounter something even the Sun can't dispute.
    I don't know that to be fact or truth, but if it happens it will be awesome.....and if the Sun can't dispute this...it will be even more interesting. When is this supposed to happen?
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  23. #22  
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    When?

    Should this be already known or just a way of approaching a "clear scientific fact"?
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by pyoko View Post
    What is "Gods' perception"?
    I think he was getting at Kant's "things-in-themselves."
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    First of all mathematics is not based off of logic, this implies logicism. Second science is not concerned with truth but description. Third the Kantian "things-in-themselves" afaik refers to those things beyond sensory phenomena, while I agree we cannot know an object beyond our own perception of it putting men on the moon seems to be affirm the idea that science can tell us quite a lot about objects regardless. Fourth 'God's perception' is not what Kant is getting at when he talks about things-in-themselves.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    while I agree we cannot know an object beyond our own perception of it putting men on the moon seems to be affirm the idea that science can tell us quite a lot about objects regardless.
    Assuming the moon exists ...
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    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    babe and Implicate Order like this.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
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  28. #27  
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    for all we know, all of life might be just a dream. it might be a computer simulation. we have no way of knowing.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    for all we know, all of life might be just a dream. it might be a computer simulation. we have no way of knowing.
    You don't know that. Maybe we could know?
    I was some of the mud that got to sit up and look around.
    Lucky me. Lucky mud.
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  30. #29  
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    IF it is all a dream, I want to edit out all that bad parts.
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    IF it is all a dream, I want to edit out all that bad parts.
    And have a re-run?
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  32. #31  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    IF it is all a dream, I want to edit out all that bad parts.
    And have a re-run?
    What makes you think you aren't a re-run of a re-run of...etc., and how many more re-runs are you going to have to go through before they get it right?
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  33. #32  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    IF it is all a dream, I want to edit out all that bad parts.
    And have a re-run?
    What makes you think you aren't a re-run of a re-run of...etc., and how many more re-runs are you going to have to go through before they get it right?
    Well whenever i'm conscious of dreaming I wake up very soon, this does not appear to happen in reality.
    Last edited by Trivium; January 18th, 2014 at 03:44 PM.
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  34. #33  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trivium View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    IF it is all a dream, I want to edit out all that bad parts.
    And have a re-run?
    What makes you think you aren't a re-run of a re-run of...etc., and how many more re-runs are you going to have to go through before they get it right?
    Well whenever i'm conscious of dreaming I wake up very soon, this does not appear to happen in reality.
    And that's probably a very good thing.
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  35. #34  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robittybob1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    IF it is all a dream, I want to edit out all that bad parts.
    And have a re-run?
    No. A re-write.
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  36. #35  
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    I have had enough of discussion with my friends Conclusion. We all like to speak,hear,write TRUTH as long as it is about someone else.
    believer in ahimsa
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weterman View Post
    for all we know ... it might be a computer simulation.
    SimUniverse by Maxis.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Einstein and Neil Bohr argued about this. Neil Bohr would reply to Einstein’s suggestions that physics is concerned with understanding nature, by saying that physicists can only engage in what they can say about nature. In this tradition J. B. S. Haldane, a British geneticist and evolutionary biologist, in 1927 famously wrote that he suspected that the “...universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose”. It is the epistemological and ontological divide, the difference between what reality really is (ontological) and what we are able to say or know about it (epistemological).
    I think it is quite feasible that we can't understand reality. We really don't know what is out there. Most of it (99%) is empty space (matter) and what isn't is basically tiny vibrating things that come in and out of existence. And part of me thinks I don't want to know. I'm scared sh..less of it.
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiet Nguyen View Post
    Einstein and Neil Bohr argued about this. Neil Bohr would reply to Einstein’s suggestions that physics is concerned with understanding nature, by saying that physicists can only engage in what they can say about nature. In this tradition J. B. S. Haldane, a British geneticist and evolutionary biologist, in 1927 famously wrote that he suspected that the “...universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose”. It is the epistemological and ontological divide, the difference between what reality really is (ontological) and what we are able to say or know about it (epistemological).
    Yes, that's a very telling quote. I think it accurately characterizes the current state of man's attitude toward the universe. It's somewhat ironic, I think, that Einstein said "the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible," when IMO it was his relativity theory that largely made it incomprehensible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiet Nguyen View Post
    I think it is quite feasible that we can't understand reality. We really don't know what is out there. Most of it (99%) is empty space (matter) and what isn't is basically tiny vibrating things that come in and out of existence. And part of me thinks I don't want to know. I'm scared sh..less of it.
    I think you might take comfort in knowing that the universe led naturally to us. Certainly it doesn't care about us (being inanimate), but neither is it malevolent.
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  40. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by hkyriazi View Post
    It's somewhat ironic, I think, that Einstein said "the most incomprehensible thing about the universe is that it's comprehensible," when IMO it was his relativity theory that largely made it incomprehensible.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    In Math.....well 2+2=4 and that is "truth" You don't need to believe it, it is a fact.
    Is it? I believe in quatummechanics 1+1= Temporarily 3 (until its being observed)

    Also I think we have to consider our selves very lucky for not knowing the truth. If we would know all, then there would be nothing left to investigate/ponder about...
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    IF it is all a dream, I want to edit out all that bad parts.
    If one would filter/delete all the bad parts. How would one know what the good parts are?
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  43. #42  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrjixies View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    IF it is all a dream, I want to edit out all that bad parts.
    If one would filter/delete all the bad parts. How would one know what the good parts are?
    Because you already lived the bad parts.
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