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December 15th, 2006, 11:26 PM
Nothing. Discuss.
Since you call it nothing, and are able to label it as a substance called nothing, nothing is something since it can't be nothing if it's defined as a lack substance with the name "nothing." In giving it a name, you make it into something.
Assuming "something" means anything that's given something to define itself by, exist by, etc.
precisely what i think.Originally Posted by Jeremyhfht
I think the only thing that might be closest to "nothing" is what isn't even known. Since it is unknown, how do you know it's something?precisely what i think.
Unfortunately, I just made it something by calling it unknown. When it comes to nothing, words are self defeating. Why? Words are something. Something can't define nothing!
precisely why it doesn't. but that doesn't mean the concept of nothing is false, it simply means that we lack the constructs to comunicate the concept of it.
we can define nothing as the absence of everything, but we still can't have a concept of it since we are something and comunicate in terms of somethings. i myself find it funny that even when we are nothing we will not have a concept of nothing because we would be nothing.
i still voted that it can't exist since anything that exists is something. really theres no way you can accurately put the topic of nothing into a poll.
i don't think anyone will disagree. this is a one sided debate :?
well theres not alot you can say about nothing.
Except maybe this:well theres not alot you can say about nothing.
well saidExcept maybe this:well theres not alot you can say about nothing.
ONe sided?
Nothing does exist, we are made of energy, not a 'physical' construct at all, before the big bang there was 'nothing' - this made the universe, the universe is made of 'nothing' - so are we - so nothing does exist - it's all around in and through us! - This Beautiful glass of Bell's blended whiskey is the only thing that exists at present!
I disagree :wink:ONe sided?
Nothing does exist, we are made of energy, not a 'physical' construct at all, before the big bang there was 'nothing' - this made the universe, the universe is made of 'nothing' - so are we - so nothing does exist - it's all around in and through us! - This Beautiful glass of Bell's blended whiskey is the only thing that exists at present!
Nothing in its true meaning mentioned here does not exist. If there was truly nothing then our universe, or any other universe, would never have happened.
When someone says our universe popped in out of nothing thats just not true in my mind. It popped in alright, maybe from something unfathomly small, but not from nothing.
There is no such thing as true nothing.
Bee
This reminds me of a screwball I met once that declared to me that no one could prove any mathematical theorem to him if the proof used zero somehow. His reasoning was that zero was "nothing" and therefore didn't exist. This has been 5-6 years ago and I still have to laugh when I think about it.
This was the same guy that "proved" to me that he was the same size as a can of Coke....
Cheers,
william
Oh sweet and lovely Bettina,
You took it so seriously, missing the fact that I was drinking scotch at the time...
Oh..
I'll get you for tricking me. I'll think of something.
Bee
Nothing has an origin, so it is a mystery.
Actually, I share his opinion. I posted a question on zero in the Mathematics section about zero not long ago. I'm desperately in search for the ontological meaning of zero in mathematics and how that, respectively, reflects on our view on physics.This reminds me of a screwball I met once that declared to me that no one could prove any mathematical theorem to him if the proof used zero somehow. His reasoning was that zero was "nothing" and therefore didn't exist. This has been 5-6 years ago and I still have to laugh when I think about it.
If anyone has recommendations on literature - I'm all ears.
Myself, zero or nothing represents an absurdity, like infinity. Such things do not exist. Numbers and amounts are properties of our mind - we separate and discriminate, no number exists in the world. As such, the actual presence in the universe of such concepts is not even questioned. Everything is in flux, moving and changing.
Mr U
Does "Nothing" exist? Yes.....uh....and no.
When it comes to fundemental qestions such as this, most people tend to get lost in the physics, mathematics or deep rooted zen-like philosophies.
Pretend you just woke. For the first time. Ever. In other words everything to you is brand new. If you were to ask yourself if there was such a thing a "Nothing" The first thing you do is look up the word in the dictionary. Terminology is a vasty underated medium that people, all too often, take for granted. Any word you can think of is represented in the dictionary as an accumulative of all of mankinds understanding. Or in this case, the lack of understanding. Every effort that was ever made to understand any one thing can be summed up in a dictionary.
Yet when it comes to the word "Nothing" it's not so much the definition that interest me as it is the placement. We keep trying to contemplate "Nothing" as a "Thing". But it is not a "Thing", it is a "No"-"Thing" In the dictionary it's listed as a noun, adverb, adjective and even an idiom.
THING
SOME - THING
ANY - THING
EVERY - THING
NO - THING
Perhaps "Nothing" does exist but even the word "Existence" is bit vague. Are we basing the format on only what is tangible? A rock, a tree, a chair, a basketball, a banana split, an aeroplane, a Brazilian polo-dancer. Matter and energy. Yet, Isn't tangibility just a limitation that we, ourselves, are enforcing here? I mean, .."If you prick us, do we not bleed?" - If you can think it, does it not exist?
Maybe "Nothing" exist the same way that right and left exist or north and south. Maybe "Nothing" is a direction. A point of view. Maybe "Nothing" is an action or the result of an action. Cause and effect. You have a box and inside the box there is an apple. If you take away the apple than you have no apple. You have nothing. "But wait"....you say. "You still have the box, right?...thats something" Yes but were not talking about the box, were talking about the apple. Or in this case, the absence of the apple. Again, it is a point of view.
When you look beyond the rules of the noun, how can anything not exist? Go ahead, try it. Think of something that does not exist. I dare you. The only alternate form of existence is practicality. There are no such thing as unicorns. They are just a theory. But even a theory can still cause something to happen. A theory is not tangible but it can still cause a man to think, to experiement. Cause and effect. Maybe "Nothing" is what causes "Something". Or vice versa.
So I would say that "Nothing" is definitly real. Yet even "Real" is......well.....relative.
Jesus Mahony!.....this is like a tail chasing it's dog :?
I think it is a trick quesiton; or an oxymoron... or both.
I think if nothing were to exist than we wouldn't be here... because... nothing would. :?
Thats right , I just quoted myself.
Not because I think it sounded intellegent, point in fact, I thought what I typed down actually sounded kind of stupid. I guess what I am trying to suggest is that I think "Nothing" is real the same way "Cold" is real or "Darkness". Of course "Cold" is just the absence of heat. It has no substance of it's own. "Cold" is a negative energy. But in that respect, even a negative energy is still an energy. In other words, "Cold" may not have a tangible form but it still can have a profound effect in our tangible reality especially when dealing with evolution here on earth. An entire species of life can be molded to fit a habitat that is constantly cold or dark.
My theory is that "Nothing" is the ultimate negative energy that propably has the greatest cause and/or effect through out are entire univers.
So again, I would say that "Nothing" does exist.
I disagree :wink:ONe sided?
Nothing does exist, we are made of energy, not a 'physical' construct at all, before the big bang there was 'nothing' - this made the universe, the universe is made of 'nothing' - so are we - so nothing does exist - it's all around in and through us! - This Beautiful glass of Bell's blended whiskey is the only thing that exists at present!
Nothing in its true meaning mentioned here does not exist. If there was truly nothing then our universe, or any other universe, would never have happened.
When someone says our universe popped in out of nothing thats just not true in my mind. It popped in alright, maybe from something unfathomly small, but not from nothing.
There is no such thing as true nothing.
Bee
we may created from nothing or something, but the universe we live in is nothing
total amount of energy in the universe is 0
matter acts like postive energy, gravity acts like negative energy
if u wanted to get rid of gravity ,it would need energy from matter, net result 0
...someone failed physics class. Unless his horrible grammar made it utterly unreadable....but still.
...someone failed physics class. Unless his horrible grammar made it utterly unreadable....but still.
sorry english not my mother tongue
In the inflationary theory, matter, antimatter, and photons were produced by the energy of the false vacuum, which was released following the phase transition. All of these particles consist of positive energy. This energy, however, is exactly balanced by the negative gravitational energy of everything pulling on everything else. In other words, the total energy of the universe is zero! It is remarkable that the universe consists of essentially nothing, but (fortunately for us) in positive and negative parts. You can easily see that gravity is associated with negative energy: If you drop a ball from rest (defined to be a state of zero energy), it gains energy of motion (kinetic energy) as it falls. But this gain is exactly balanced by a larger negative gravitational energy as it comes closer to Earth’s center, so the sum of the two energies remains zero.
Here's a thought for you all, if a vacuum is 'nothing' then does a vacuum exist?
It's another thought prompted by another wee sma' glassy.
IF a vacuum were nothing then a vacuum would not exist.
but a vacuum is not nothing, vacuum is the complete absence of matter and energy. no i'm not even talking about zero point energy, or whatever, either. one could argue that the vacuum holds dimensions, if there was a region of space without energy or matter, bordered on all sides by matter and energy then the vacuum would be so many units in length, width, height when measured at a particular time. actually this would make it rather tricky wouldn't it, esspecially if you could argue for a vacuum of infinite length.
great i don't even know what i'm trying to say anymore!
Your words are like sweet poetry. What you meant is that the kinetic energy in the universe is equal to the potential energy of gravity. If you know this for certain, then I would like to ask you:...someone failed physics class. Unless his horrible grammar made it utterly unreadable....but still.
sorry english not my mother tongue
In the inflationary theory, matter, antimatter, and photons were produced by the energy of the false vacuum, which was released following the phase transition. All of these particles consist of positive energy. This energy, however, is exactly balanced by the negative gravitational energy of everything pulling on everything else. In other words, the total energy of the universe is zero! It is remarkable that the universe consists of essentially nothing, but (fortunately for us) in positive and negative parts. You can easily see that gravity is associated with negative energy: If you drop a ball from rest (defined to be a state of zero energy), it gains energy of motion (kinetic energy) as it falls. But this gain is exactly balanced by a larger negative gravitational energy as it comes closer to Earth’s center, so the sum of the two energies remains zero.
1. What is the energy of gravity as a function of matter and radius?
Since you are so sure, you ought to know!
2. Wouldn't gravity lessen over the years?
If you know the kinetic energy as a function of time, wouldn't the "gravity relations" be predicteable and couldn't you evaluate G through this?
IF a vacuum were nothing then a vacuum would not exist.
but a vacuum is not nothing, vacuum is the complete absence of matter and energy. no i'm not even talking about zero point energy, or whatever, either. one could argue that the vacuum holds dimensions, if there was a region of space without energy or matter, bordered on all sides by matter and energy then the vacuum would be so many units in length, width, height when measured at a particular time. actually this would make it rather tricky wouldn't it, esspecially if you could argue for a vacuum of infinite length.
great i don't even know what i'm trying to say anymore!
Now take a closed syringe, extend it fully and you have created a vacuum, you have made something from nothing....
Some might call you a God for that!
Okay, so does that mean that "Nothing" can cause "Something"?
IT would seem so, just look around, we cannot conceive there was always something.... yet we cannot conceive 'something from nothing'
It's the old big bang conundrum.
There could be a fundamental law of everything that states it is impossible for nothing to exist or nothing cannot exist as something.
Is the reverse true also? Can something become nothing? Can something not exist?(possible religious implications with that one)
no not really, you've just removed an object from a space that was already there.
Er you had a syringe, you now have a syringe AND a vacuum AND the air the vacuum displaced, you started with two, you ended with three and the two have not had bits taken to make the third, ergo you have made a vacuum out of nothing?no not really, you've just removed an object from a space that was already there.
Oh well I was only toying with words anyway.
i guess i should have asked this first.
can you define closed syringe?
ok, so here were my thoughts when i started this.
"Nothing" as in the word exists, obviously. So nothing exists in that sense. But as for true nothing as in the absolute lack of ANYTHING, nothing doesn't exist, because nothing is ITSELF, and therefore is something. It's still EXISTENCE. Any given thing, even nothing, is existence. So that's my view on that.
Nothing is the lack of things.
To have nothing is to have the lack of things.
You cannot have the lack of having a thing,
since the lack of having a thing is not a thing.
And if it was a thing it would not be the lack of things.
So you cannot have nothing.
Actually, I share his opinion. I posted a question on zero in the Mathematics section about zero not long ago. I'm desperately in search for the ontological meaning of zero in mathematics and how that, respectively, reflects on our view on physics.This reminds me of a screwball I met once that declared to me that no one could prove any mathematical theorem to him if the proof used zero somehow. His reasoning was that zero was "nothing" and therefore didn't exist. This has been 5-6 years ago and I still have to laugh when I think about it.
all numbers add up to nothing
So is this hypothetical section of Nothingness relative to that which is Someting? Is it dependent on Something and/or vice versa? I like the idea of removing a section of space as an example.
IF a vacuum were nothing then a vacuum would not exist.
but a vacuum is not nothing, vacuum is the complete absence of matter and energy. no i'm not even talking about zero point energy, or whatever, either. one could argue that the vacuum holds dimensions, if there was a region of space without energy or matter, bordered on all sides by matter and energy then the vacuum would be so many units in length, width, height when measured at a particular time. actually this would make it rather tricky wouldn't it, esspecially if you could argue for a vacuum of infinite length.
We can't define Nothing until some terms are established to what Nothing is exactly, if it is anything at all. Is it a Quality? a Property? a State Of Being? can it be measured (this might lead to tricky territory).
Although, as it was mentioned, a vacuum is still Something. And to give a property to any particular thing or idea is to make it anything but Nothing; If there is truly a Nothing that exists in some way or another, it must be said that Nothing is only Nothing and is capable only of being Nothing. So perhaps Nothing is the lack of property or quality, in any sense of terms.
We think of the Universe - or the "known Universe" - as a broad all encompassing term that defines all of that which we know to exist, all of that which we presume to exist, and all of that which we assume we have no mental or physical faculty to ever know. With that said, How could the Universe come from this Nothingness? Either Somethingness and Nothingness are interrelated or Nothing does not exist (in that Nothing has no bearing on the state of anything that does exist, at any given point or time on any scale).
A more interesting question to pose might be "Why do we have a concept of Nothing?". And I don't want to hear anything about Descartes, because Perfection might be an ambiguous concept but that's got nothing to do with a concept of God; just doesn't hold water.
But anyway, if Nothing is an idea than the idea exists. The actually Nothing is still elusive...
When I had nothing I gave it away and now I have nothing left.
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