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Thread: Is possessing greatness and humanity mutually exclusive or inclusive?

  1. #1 Is possessing greatness and humanity mutually exclusive or inclusive? 
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Can a great person be a humane one? When we talk about great people at times, such as great scientist, musicians and whoever, they seem less and less human but rather great beings or something greater than humans and who have this personal goal in life that sets them apart from many, although we still refer to them as people, such as most influential people like isaac newton and etc, do they still possess that humanity or are they more like machines, or beings who are not humane anymore?

    Also before we dive into this topic,
    Humanity in this context is defined as : the quality of being humane; benevolence
    Greatness is defined as :Greatness is a concept of a state of superiority affecting a person, object, or place. Greatness can also be referred to individuals who possess a natural ability to be better than all others

    If you have another perspective on the topic being discussed, please provide your context(such as definition of greatness and humanity and examples if possible) clearly so to avoid any form of misdirection of this topic, thank you!


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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Nelson Mandela.


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    For the USA alone.

    Cesar Chavez. Martin Luther King. Harriet Tubman.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Thank you for the examples, now let me try to develop a stand against them
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Good luck. I wouldn't have fancied my chances standing against them.
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    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Good luck. I wouldn't have fancied my chances standing against them.
    True, well i guess for a meaning discussion, i should atleast try to put up some resistance that they are mutually exclusive.
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    ▼▼ dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ ▼▼ RedPanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    ...do they still possess that humanity or are they more like machines, or beings who are not humane anymore?
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Nelson Mandela.
    And the reason Nelson Mandela is considered 'great' is because of his humanity.

    Can you give an example of a great person who is more like a machine or not humane?
    SayBigWords.com/say/3FC

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    ...do they still possess that humanity or are they more like machines, or beings who are not humane anymore?
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Nelson Mandela.
    And the reason Nelson Mandela is considered 'great' is because of his humanity.

    Can you give an example of a great person who is more like a machine or not humane?
    I think some Russians will tell you Stalin was great, although he was like a machine and inhumane to his people.
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    ▼▼ dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ ▼▼ RedPanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I think some Russians will tell you Stalin was great...
    But the rest of the world would point out the 100's of thousands that he had killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    , although he was like a machine and inhumane to his people.
    And what connection is there between his greatness and his lack of humanity?

    For every 'great' psychopath you can name, I can name a 'great' person who was humane.
    There is therefore no evidence of any connection between "being great" and "a loss of humanity".
    Different people are different.
    Different great people are different.
    SayBigWords.com/say/3FC

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    "Religions are like sausages. When you know how they are made, you no longer want them."
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    Well, different is one way to describe Stalin.

    Utterly unhinged might be a better way.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
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    Forum Professor Daecon's Avatar
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    There's something so much better and more important than greatness.

    Goodness.
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    ▼▼ dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ ▼▼ RedPanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Well, different is one way to describe Stalin.

    Utterly unhinged might be a better way.
    Yeah, but he was normal before he became famous - or so jacate would like us believe.
    SayBigWords.com/say/3FC

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    "Religions are like sausages. When you know how they are made, you no longer want them."
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    Forum Freshman Citadel's Avatar
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    Bill Gates - Great and humane for the way in which he has used his money to aid others.

    Gates is the proof that you do not have to be a self-absorbed, human-hating,money fixated psychopath to become incredibly wealthy. He's also proof that great wealth does not corrupt anyone - they are the same as they were when they were poor. This means that the endless list of humanity-exploiting fat cats have no excuse.

    Holding a *Bring back the animated hour-glass* protest sign
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daecon View Post
    There's something so much better and more important than greatness.

    Goodness.
    Greatness is as simple as recognizing the ultimate "goodness". ​There are some people who can change the world and no one knows them. There are others where the world changes them and everyone knows them. I like what you have said.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Well, different is one way to describe Stalin.

    Utterly unhinged might be a better way.
    Yeah, but he was normal before he became famous - or so jacate would like us believe.
    Depends on what you call normal.
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    But the rest of the world would point out the 100's of thousands that he had killed.
    Napoleon was great, killed a lot of people, Christopher Columbus was great, killed a lot of children. Mandela was great, killed people, America is a great country, was the first to use the atomic bomb on another country. depends how you want to see it.
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    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    Then there was that horrible Gandhi fellow
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  19. #18  
    ▼▼ dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ ▼▼ RedPanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Then there was that horrible Gandhi fellow
    And Steven Hawking.
    And Florence Nightingale.
    And Einstein.
    etc.
    SayBigWords.com/say/3FC

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  20. #19  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by adelady View Post
    Well, different is one way to describe Stalin.

    Utterly unhinged might be a better way.
    Yeah, but he was normal before he became famous - or so jacate would like us believe.
    Did you just typed words into my keyboard? (put words into my mouth) I haven't even made an appropriate stand that greatness and humanity are mutually exclusive and you said, "or so jacate would like us believe." I haven't been thinking of a stand yet since i am quite tired, but i am trying to come up with one. Also he wasn't that much normal before he became famous, from assaulting police chiefs, to being banished or even robbing a bank in 1907. Far from normal.
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    ▼▼ dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ ▼▼ RedPanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Did you just typed words into my keyboard? (put words into my mouth) I haven't even made an appropriate stand that greatness and humanity are mutually exclusive and you said, "or so jacate would like us believe." I haven't been thinking of a stand yet since i am quite tired, but i am trying to come up with one.
    Clearly you suspect that "they [are] more like machines, or beings who are not humane anymore", else you wouldn't have started this thread.
    SayBigWords.com/say/3FC

    "And, behold, I come quickly;" Revelation 22:12

    "Religions are like sausages. When you know how they are made, you no longer want them."
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    Greatness and humanity could be different types of progressions. Greatness reaches. Humanity just "is".

    Why confuse words that on their own mean so much?
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  23. #22  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Did you just typed words into my keyboard? (put words into my mouth) I haven't even made an appropriate stand that greatness and humanity are mutually exclusive and you said, "or so jacate would like us believe." I haven't been thinking of a stand yet since i am quite tired, but i am trying to come up with one.
    Clearly you suspect that "they [are] more like machines, or beings who are not humane anymore", else you wouldn't have started this thread.
    That is true but does that mean i am forcing my beliefs on yours? "would like us to believe" clearly suggests that i am when i am here to present a thread for discussion to support a stand, but one which you need to take as truth or gospel.
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    ▼▼ dn ʎɐʍ sıɥʇ ▼▼ RedPanda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    That is true but does that mean i am forcing my beliefs on yours? "would like us to believe" clearly suggests that i am
    No it doesn't.
    SayBigWords.com/say/3FC

    "And, behold, I come quickly;" Revelation 22:12

    "Religions are like sausages. When you know how they are made, you no longer want them."
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    Albert Einstein.
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    Yes, all noted people are evil..
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    Is possessing anything a topic of discussion?
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    er.. "lowly" people can be "evil" (does such a thing ever exist?)
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    Forum Cosmic Wizard icewendigo's Avatar
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    Imo theres no relationship between what you define as greatness and inhumane.
    It sounds like the forer effect or a case of self-reinforcing perception (giving weight to what you perceive to be true and filtering out what doesnt match your assumptions)

    Also, as a side note, I point out that a large part of the world we perceive, is perceived thru the giant filters/prisms which are the Media and our own Culture, which Distort our perception of reality.

    There are many many examples, but just to throw a simple example, is the fact that afaik we havent heard of a single death in recent years of someone burning alive in a gasoline powered car while there were hundreds of such deaths, but a fire in a Tesla where no one was seriously injured is getting substantial coverage, this type of utter BS is ubiquitous with media in general and Mass Media. Bomb-with-drones-some-more Obama got a Nobel Peace prize , while virtually no one knows the name of an individual that most probably saved human civilisation and millions of lives(possibly including our own lives or those of our parents) by refusing a direct order in a Russian nuclear missile carrying submarine.

    So there are the great people in reality, and those we are presented as great. The other bias, cultural, is the hero syndrome, that is attributing a great deal to a prominent person while ignoring a great deal from many people, for example, we all know Neil Armstrong, but dont know the names of the mission control technicians, engineers, physicists, chemists, etc, etc that made the moon launch possible, (some know the name of the dog that was catapulted in space by the early russian space program but no one knows the name of anyone that worked on the project, the dog is the hero, it went into space!). Im not saying the prominent media getting person is not worthy of praise and admiration, but saying the picture/perception is often highly distorted.
    Last edited by icewendigo; November 22nd, 2013 at 02:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Imo theres no relationship between what you define as greatness and inhumane.
    It sounds like the forer effect or a case of self-reinforcing perception (giving weight to what you perceive to be true and filtering out what doesnt match your assumptions)

    Also, as a side note, I point out that a large part of the world we perceive, is perceived thru the giant filters/prisms which are the Media and our own Culture, which Distort our perception of reality.

    There are many many example, but just to throw a simple example, is the fact that afaik we havent heard of a single death in recent years of someone burning alive in a gasoline powered car while there were hundreds of such deaths, but a fire in a Tesla where no one was seriously injured is getting substantial coverage, this type of utter BS is ubiquitous with media in general and Mass Media. Bomb-with-drones-some-more Obama got a Nobel Peace prize , while virtually no one knows the name of an individual that most probably saved human civilisation and millions of lives(possibly including our own lives or those of our parents) by refusing a direct order in a Russian nuclear ICBM carrying submarine.

    So there are the great people in reality, and those we are presented as great. The other bias, cultural, is the hero syndrome, that is attributing a great deal to a prominent person while ignoring a great deal from many people, for example, we all know Neil Armstrong, but dont know the names of the mission control technicians, engineers, physicists, chemists, etc, etc that made the moon launch possible, (some know the name of the dog that was catapulted in space by the early russian space program but no one knows the name of anyone that worked on the project, the dog is the hero, it went into space!). Im not saying the prominent media getting person is not worthy of praise and admiration, but saying the picture/perception is often highly distorted.
    I think you are making a great point here.
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  31. #30  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citadel View Post
    Bill Gates - Great and humane for the way in which he has used his money to aid others.

    Gates is the proof that you do not have to be a self-absorbed, human-hating,money fixated psychopath to become incredibly wealthy. He's also proof that great wealth does not corrupt anyone - they are the same as they were when they were poor. This means that the endless list of humanity-exploiting fat cats have no excuse.

    Can't say I agree. Everything I have seen about Bill Gates strongly suggests "self-absorbed, money fixated psychopath" described him quite accurately when he was building his fortune running Microsoft. I agree the Bill Gates foundation seems to be using a large chunk of his fortune to support very good causes, but that doesn't mean he earned it doing what I would call honest work. Some would say he is a cynic who wants to improve his self image. Personally, I think the man has just changes his outlook as he grows older. People do change, even psychopaths. Look at Nelson Mandela, for example. He is honored as a champion of peace, and deserves to be so honored, but do not lose sight of the fact that he spent decades in prison for participating in a bombing plot that killed innocent people.
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    hmm.. good and bad are non-existent points.

    Why is Bill Gates less "evil" than a blue-collar worker who beats his wife?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    But the rest of the world would point out the 100's of thousands that he had killed.
    Napoleon was great, killed a lot of people, Christopher Columbus was great, killed a lot of children. Mandela was great, killed people, America is a great country, was the first to use the atomic bomb on another country. depends how you want to see it.
    And China keeps workers as slaves and keeps them as animals...
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    Quote Originally Posted by RedPanda View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I think some Russians will tell you Stalin was great...
    But the rest of the world would point out the 100's of thousands that he had killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    , although he was like a machine and inhumane to his people.
    And what connection is there between his greatness and his lack of humanity?

    For every 'great' psychopath you can name, I can name a 'great' person who was humane.
    There is therefore no evidence of any connection between "being great" and "a loss of humanity".
    Different people are different.
    Different great people are different.
    so why aren't YOU a psychopath?

    And what actions make one great or not?
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