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Thread: What is difference between physical and spiritual world?

  1. #301  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Are you saying that you never go to the shop specifically for a given product?
    Are you saying that you NEVER make plans for the weekend or the following day? You go to sleep at night having a prepared will and clkosed all of your affairs?
    Making plans does not constitute for beliefs. I plan for both outcomes if necessary, positive and negative. I believe in neither. I will know by observation when I test the state of the matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Making plans does not constitute for beliefs.
    Wrong again: making plans relies on belief.
    Belief that you'll be alive to carry out the plan, belief that you'll have the resources, belief that the world will continue to work as expected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Making plans does not constitute for beliefs.
    Wrong again: making plans relies on belief.
    Belief that you'll be alive to carry out the plan, belief that you'll have the resources, belief that the world will continue to work as expected.
    I accept the possibility of not being alive to carry out the plan. etc. etc. SO NO BELIEFS.

    Just answer my last question on the previous page please.
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    I accept the possibility of not being alive to carry out the plan. etc. etc.
    You still behave as if X were true.
    You go to work expecting that the building will be there.
    You come home expecting that your house will still be there.
    You believe that you'll get paid.
    If married you believe your wife loves you and is faithful.
    You believe your friends do actually like you.

    SO NO BELIEFS.
    Utterly and totally wrong.

    Just answer my last question on the previous page please.
    In post #278?
    I answered that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    I accept the possibility of not being alive to carry out the plan. etc. etc.
    You still behave as if X were true.
    You go to work expecting that the building will be there.
    You come home expecting that your house will still be there.
    You believe that you'll get paid.
    If married you believe your wife loves you and is faithful.
    You believe your friends do actually like you.

    SO NO BELIEFS.
    Utterly and totally wrong.

    Just answer my last question on the previous page please.
    In post #278?
    I answered that.
    Post #300.
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    theist: - Of course you believe in my god, you're just in denial.
    That's bollocks.
    theist: - Every man is born with the knowledge of god, the bible says so, you are just in denial.
    That's also bollocks.

    Which one of these positions is rational in your view?
    The theist is making unsupported claims.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Which one of these positions is rational in your view?
    The theist is making unsupported claims.
    Exactly. Do you see the resemblance to your position here?
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Exactly. Do you see the resemblance to your position here?
    Not at all.
    Like I've said at least twice: my position is supported by KNOWN psychology.
    People operate with the belief that the world will work (largely)as expected (among others).
    I have given numerous examples.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Exactly. Do you see the resemblance to your position here?
    Not at all.
    Like I've said at least twice: my position is supported by KNOWN psychology.
    People operate with the belief that the world will work (largely)as expected (among others).
    I have given numerous examples.
    Define belief.
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    I say to you that I am totally open to the possibility of being dead tomorrow or maybe even today. People often die suddenly and unexpectedly don't they.
    You still keep insisting and asserting that I must believe that I will be alive tomorrow?
    Will you not let me accept the possibility that I might be dead tomorrow?
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    I say to you that I am totally open to the possibility of being dead tomorrow or maybe even today. People often die suddenly and unexpectedly don't they.
    You still keep insisting and asserting that I must believe that I will be alive tomorrow?
    Will you not let me accept the possibility that I might be dead tomorrow?
    You're getting confused.
    Being open to the possibility that you'll be dead tomorrow does not stop you believing that you won't be.
    You still make plans: ones which are predicated entirely on the belief that you will be alive to carry them out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    I say to you that I am totally open to the possibility of being dead tomorrow or maybe even today. People often die suddenly and unexpectedly don't they.
    You still keep insisting and asserting that I must believe that I will be alive tomorrow?
    Will you not let me accept the possibility that I might be dead tomorrow?
    You're getting confused.
    Being open to the possibility that you'll be dead tomorrow does not stop you believing that you won't be.
    You still make plans: ones which are predicated entirely on the belief that you will be alive to carry them out.
    So you're saying that agnostics actually believe in a god? Is that it?

    If I'm dead I can do nothing. So I can only do something while I'm still alive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    So you're saying that agnostics actually believe in a god? Is that it?
    I really don't know what you're using in place of logic, but it isn't working as a viable substitute.
    Agnosticism is nothing to do with belief: it's an epistemological position.
    If you're using the word in the (much) looser sense of "I don't know whether god exists or not" then no, that's not what I'm saying. Nor is it even close to what I'm saying. (In fact it's so far away from what I AM saying I can't even see how you got there).

    If I'm dead I can do nothing. So I can only do something while I'm still alive.
    And you believe that you'll be alive tomorrow: otherwise you wouldn't EVER make plans.
    You base your entire existence on the belief that the world is A) "real" and B) it'll operate much as it always has done.
    Or are you telling me that you're utterly surprised each time you step outside your house and discover that the street is still there? That your neighbours still exist?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    So you're saying that agnostics actually believe in a god? Is that it?
    I really don't know what you're using in place of logic, but it isn't working as a viable substitute.
    Agnosticism is nothing to do with belief: it's an epistemological position.
    If you're using the word in the (much) looser sense of "I don't know whether god exists or not" then no, that's not what I'm saying. Nor is it even close to what I'm saying. (In fact it's so far away from what I AM saying I can't even see how you got there).
    If an agnostic decides to play it safe just in case and not commit a specific sin at a specific time, he made a plan as if the christian god existed. Does he thus believe in the christian god?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    If I'm dead I can do nothing. So I can only do something while I'm still alive.
    And you believe that you'll be alive tomorrow: otherwise you wouldn't EVER make plans.
    You base your entire existence on the belief that the world is A) "real" and B) it'll operate much as it always has done.
    Or are you telling me that you're utterly surprised each time you step outside your house and discover that the street is still there? That your neighbours still exist?
    Some people plan for the worst. Do they thus believe the worst will happen?
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    If an agnostic decides to play it safe just in case and not commit a specific sin at a specific time, he made a plan as if the christian god existed. Does he thus believe in the christian god?
    What?
    A) His decision may not consider "god" at all 1. There's also the fact that a number of so-called sins happen to be criminal offences or "immoral".
    B) The decision may contain an element of bet-hedging: e.g. "it COULD be true, so I'll play it safe" - no belief required.

    Some people plan for the worst. Do they thus believe the worst will happen?
    And again you're getting confused.
    They plan for the worst because they accept it as a possibility. If they actually believed that the worst would happen then "worst-case scenarios" wouldn't be contingency plans they'd be the primary ones.

    1 "Sin" is a purely religious concept, so there's a built-in assumption in your question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    If an agnostic decides to play it safe just in case and not commit a specific sin at a specific time, he made a plan as if the christian god existed. Does he thus believe in the christian god?
    What?
    A) His decision may not consider "god" at all 1. There's also the fact that a number of so-called sins happen to be criminal offences or "immoral".
    B) The decision may contain an element of bet-hedging: e.g. "it COULD be true, so I'll play it safe" - no belief required.
    Let's put some specific in there then. He read in the bible that stealing from someone is a sin and the wages of sin is death.
    He was about to steal, but the remembered what he read. He decided to play it safe and not steal just in case. Did he form a belief in the christian god?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Some people plan for the worst. Do they thus believe the worst will happen?
    And again you're getting confused.
    They plan for the worst because they accept it as a possibility. If they actually believed that the worst would happen then "worst-case scenarios" wouldn't be contingency plans they'd be the primary ones.

    1 "Sin" is a purely religious concept, so there's a built-in assumption in your question.
    Seriously, you don't even at this moment see your own confusion?

    So in essence one does not need to believe in something if they want to plan for it (accepting the possibility is enough)? Yes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Let's put some specific in there then. He read in the bible that stealing from someone is a sin and the wages of sin is death.
    He was about to steal, but the remembered what he read. He decided to play it safe and not steal just in case. Did he form a belief in the christian god?
    One more time: The decision may contain an element of bet-hedging: e.g. "it COULD be true, so I'll play it safe" - no belief required.
    You yourself wrote: "play it safe, just in case".
    I don't see the conflict here.

    Seriously, you don't even at this moment see your own confusion?
    There is NO confusion on my part.

    So in essence one does not need to believe in something if they want to plan for it (accepting the possibility is enough)? Yes?
    Accepting the possibility is enough - it's a known fact that sometimes things go bad.
    What's your point?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Seriously, you don't even at this moment see your own confusion?
    There is NO confusion on my part.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    So in essence one does not need to believe in something if they want to plan for it (accepting the possibility is enough)? Yes?
    Accepting the possibility is enough - it's a known fact that sometimes things go bad.
    What's your point?
    So if I accept the possibility that I may be dead tomorrow I thus don't believe that I will be alive tomorrow? Yes?
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Yeah. Fail.

    So if I accept the possibility that I may be dead tomorrow I thus don't believe that I will be alive? Yes?
    No. Since you predicate your plans (and continue your life) as if you won't be dead.
    It's that simple.
    If you believed you would be dead tomorrow you wouldn't make ANY plans (except writing a will and saying goodbye).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    So if I accept the possibility that I may be dead tomorrow I thus don't believe that I will be alive? Yes?
    No. Since you predicate your plans (and continue your life) as if you won't be dead.
    It's that simple.
    If you believed you would be dead tomorrow you wouldn't make ANY plans (except writing a will and saying goodbye).
    You keep going around in a circle. Can I plan to do something when I am dead?
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    You keep going around in a circle. Can I plan to do something when I am dead?
    What?
    You're making no sense.
    You do not live your life as if you were going to be dead tomorrow.
    You do not believe you'll be dead tomorrow.
    "Making plans WHEN you're dead" has nothing to do with it: you're not making plans as if you were going to be dead.
    You do realise there's a difference, don't you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    You keep going around in a circle. Can I plan to do something when I am dead?
    What?
    You're making no sense.
    You do not live your life as if you were going to be dead tomorrow.
    You do not believe you'll be dead tomorrow.
    "Making plans WHEN you're dead" has nothing to do with it: you're not making plans as if you were going to be dead.
    You do realise there's a difference, don't you?
    Let me clarify for you:

    Today I am alive. Can I make plans for tomorrow as to carry them out while I am dead?
    Do I have a choice for making plans for tomorrow as to carry them out as alive?

    Do I have a choice?
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    van erst
    Let me clarify for you:

    Today I am alive. Can I make plans for tomorrow as to carry them out while I am dead?
    Do I have a choice for making plans for tomorrow as to carry them out as alive?

    Do I have a choice?
    This makes zero sense to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    van erst
    Let me clarify for you:

    Today I am alive. Can I make plans for tomorrow as to carry them out while I am dead?
    Do I have a choice for making plans for tomorrow as to carry them out as alive?

    Do I have a choice?
    This makes zero sense to me.
    For a rational person, belief is a matter of choice. You choose whether or not you believe in the christian god. Wouldn't you agree?
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Let me clarify for you:
    Today I am alive. Can I make plans for tomorrow as to carry them out while I am dead?
    Do I have a choice for making plans for tomorrow as to carry them out as alive?
    Do I have a choice?
    Of course you have a choice 1.
    YOU DO NOT ACT (OR PLAN) AS IF YOU WERE GOING TO BE DEAD TOMORROW.
    In other words you assume (= believe) that you will be alive tomorrow.

    You believe that when you go to the shop they will have what you've specifically gone there to buy.
    You believe that the shop will actually be there.
    You believe that the price of whatever you've gone to buy will be much the same as it was the last time you bought it (depending, of course, on how long ago you last bought it).
    You believe that whatever you buy will be useful for the purpose for which you bought it.
    Etc etc etc.

    1 IF, of course, we actually DO choose: that's a different topic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    For a rational person, belief is a matter of choice. You choose whether or not you believe in the christian god. Wouldn't you agree?
    No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    van erst
    Let me clarify for you:

    Today I am alive. Can I make plans for tomorrow as to carry them out while I am dead?
    Do I have a choice for making plans for tomorrow as to carry them out as alive?

    Do I have a choice?
    This makes zero sense to me.
    For a rational person, belief is a matter of choice. You choose whether or not you believe in the christian god. Wouldn't you agree?
    I don't think of it as a choice, frankly. I was brought up in a very religious setting.......I didn't CHOSE not to believe in god, or religion, I just came to the conclusion that it was bullshit.

    That to me isn't a choice, it's an epiphany.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I don't think of it as a choice, frankly. I was brought up in a very religious setting.......I didn't CHOSE not to believe in god, or religion, I just came to the conclusion that it was bullshit.

    That to me isn't a choice, it's an epiphany.
    Ok, the question was poorly set up

    A rational person understands the christian god to be logically paradoxical and thus can not choose to believe. I suppose you'd agree with that.

    However, if your spouse tells you that he has been faithful, there it is your choice to believe (as a rational person). Would you agree with that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I don't think of it as a choice, frankly. I was brought up in a very religious setting.......I didn't CHOSE not to believe in god, or religion, I just came to the conclusion that it was bullshit.

    That to me isn't a choice, it's an epiphany.
    Ok, the question was poorly set up

    A rational person understand the christian god to be logically paradoxical and thus can not choose to believe. I suppose you'd agree with that.
    No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I don't think of it as a choice, frankly. I was brought up in a very religious setting.......I didn't CHOSE not to believe in god, or religion, I just came to the conclusion that it was bullshit.

    That to me isn't a choice, it's an epiphany.
    Ok, the question was poorly set up

    A rational person understand the christian god to be logically paradoxical and thus can not choose to believe. I suppose you'd agree with that.

    However, if your spouse tells you that he has been faithful, there it is your choice to believe (as a rational person). Would you agree with that?
    No.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    A rational person understand the christian god to be logically paradoxical and thus can not choose to believe. I suppose you'd agree with that.

    However, if your spouse tells you that he has been faithful, there it is your choice to believe (as a rational person). Would you agree with that?
    No.
    Now I don't understand. You don't have a choice to believe or not whether your spouse has been faithful?
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    A rational person understand the christian god to be logically paradoxical and thus can not choose to believe. I suppose you'd agree with that.

    However, if your spouse tells you that he has been faithful, there it is your choice to believe (as a rational person). Would you agree with that?
    No.
    Now I don't understand. You don't have a choice to believe or not whether your spouse has been faithful?
    No. I don't have a choice. Because I don't know if he has or hasn't there I don't have to believe either choice. I don't even have to consider that option, of making that choice. Therefore there is no choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    No. I don't have a choice. Because I don't know if he has or hasn't there I don't have to believe either choice. I don't even have to consider that option, of making that choice.
    If your spouse has been unfaithful you could find evidence of that (e.g. lipstick on his collar).
    If your spouse has not been unfaithful there is a total absence of evidence.

    Can you believe he has not been unfaithful without any evidence?
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    [QUOTE=van erst;491680]
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    No. I don't have a choice. Because I don't know if he has or hasn't there I don't have to believe either choice. I don't even have to consider that option, of making that choice.
    If your spouse has been unfaithful you could find evidence of that (e.g. lipstick on his collar).
    If your spouse has not been unfaithful there is a total absence of evidence.
    Not necessarily and I am not swabbing his boxers for evidence of sperm.
    Can you believe he has not been unfaithful without any evidence?

    That is my point. You can't prove either. Faithfulness or unfaithfulness, oh, and lipstick wouldn't be great evidence......I kiss my guy friends all the time....theatre people are kissy huggy souls. Therefore there is no evidence of either.

    No choice to make.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Not necessarily and I am not swabbing his boxers for evidence of sperm.

    Can you believe he has not been unfaithful without any evidence?

    That is my point. You can't prove either. Faithfulness or unfaithfulness, oh, and lipstick wouldn't be great evidence......I kiss my guy friends all the time....theatre people are kissy huggy souls. Therefore there is no evidence of either.

    No choice to make.
    So you don't believe that your spouse has been faithful?
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Not necessarily and I am not swabbing his boxers for evidence of sperm.


    van erst:
    Can you believe he has not been unfaithful without any evidence?

    That is my point. You can't prove either. Faithfulness or unfaithfulness, oh, and lipstick wouldn't be great evidence......I kiss my guy friends all the time....theatre people are kissy huggy souls. Therefore there is no evidence of either.

    No choice to make.
    So you don't believe that your spouse has been faithful?
    No, I do know if he has or he hasn't. That isn't a choice. Frankly, I don't even think about it. Since we don't live together 7 months of the year, it would be stupid and futile to think about it. He's a good man. Period.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    No, I do know if he has or he hasn't. That isn't a choice. Frankly, I don't even think about it. Since we don't live together 7 months of the year, it would be stupid and futile to think about it. He's a good man. Period.
    Here we think alike. The possibility of both faithfulness and unfaithfulness exists. No belief is required for either, a total lack of belief remains. We can still plan our lives with the premise that the spouse has been faithful. If things are revealed to be contrary later, then so be it...

    Dywyddyr,

    Do you agree with this?
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  39. #339  
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Here we think alike. The possibility of both faithfulness and unfaithfulness exists. No belief is required for either, a total lack of belief remains. We can still plan our lives with the premise that the spouse has been faithful. If things are revealed to be contrary later, then so be it...
    Dywyddyr,
    Do you agree with this?
    Nope.
    Babe's circumstances are peculiar.
    In a "normal" marriage fidelity is assumed and taken for granted: i.e. faithfulness is believed to be the default, until shown otherwise.
    And your "scenario" - "We can still plan our lives with the premise that the spouse has been faithful. If things are revealed to be contrary later, then so be it..." - ALSO assumes that fidelity is the default situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Here we think alike. The possibility of both faithfulness and unfaithfulness exists. No belief is required for either, a total lack of belief remains. We can still plan our lives with the premise that the spouse has been faithful. If things are revealed to be contrary later, then so be it...
    Dywyddyr,
    Do you agree with this?
    Nope.
    Babe's circumstances are peculiar.
    In a "normal" marriage fidelity is assumed and taken for granted: i.e. faithfulness is believed to be the default, until shown otherwise.
    And your "scenario" - "We can still plan our lives with the premise that the spouse has been faithful. If things are revealed to be contrary later, then so be it..." - ALSO assumes that fidelity is the default situation.
    Who are you to call babe's relationship "not normal"?

    babe,

    would your beliefs in this matter be any different if you were most of the time together with your spouse?
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  41. #341  
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Who are you to call babe's relationship "not normal"?
    Oh dear. I had assumed that putting the word "normal" in quote marks would indicate that I'm using it very loosely.
    I.e. it's not a typical relationship.
    Perhaps I should have been more precise and used the word normative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Here we think alike. The possibility of both faithfulness and unfaithfulness exists. No belief is required for either, a total lack of belief remains. We can still plan our lives with the premise that the spouse has been faithful. If things are revealed to be contrary later, then so be it...
    Dywyddyr,
    Do you agree with this?
    Nope.
    Babe's circumstances are peculiar.
    In a "normal" marriage fidelity is assumed and taken for granted: i.e. faithfulness is believed to be the default, until shown otherwise.
    And your "scenario" - "We can still plan our lives with the premise that the spouse has been faithful. If things are revealed to be contrary later, then so be it..." - ALSO assumes that fidelity is the default situation.
    Who are you to call babe's relationship "not normal"?

    babe,

    would your beliefs in this matter be any different if you were most of the time together with your spouse?
    Nope.

    My point is this. I don't chose to believe in god or not. I do not chose to believe in my husband being faithful.

    and Sir Ducky!! I had to chuckle at your comment about my circumstances being "peculiar".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Who are you to call babe's relationship "not normal"?
    Oh dear. I had assumed that putting the word "normal" in quote marks would indicate that I'm using it very loosely.
    I.e. it's not a typical relationship.
    Perhaps I should have been more precise and used the word normative.
    There is no such thing as a standard relationship. All are different, unique and unpredictable.

    Essentially you are asserting here that if babe spent more time with her spouse, she would thus have to believe in fidelity even though she says she has no choice because it is just silly?

    Above babe now contradicts your claims of this necessary believing in fidelity. Do you still assert that she must believe given that situation?
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  44. #344  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Who are you to call babe's relationship "not normal"?
    Oh dear. I had assumed that putting the word "normal" in quote marks would indicate that I'm using it very loosely.
    I.e. it's not a typical relationship.
    Perhaps I should have been more precise and used the word normative.
    *chuckle*
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  45. #345  
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Who are you to call babe's relationship "not normal"?
    Oh dear. I had assumed that putting the word "normal" in quote marks would indicate that I'm using it very loosely.
    I.e. it's not a typical relationship.
    Perhaps I should have been more precise and used the word normative.
    There is no such thing as a standard relationship. All are different, unique and unpredictable.

    Essentially you are asserting here that if babe spent more time with her spouse, she would thus have to believe in fidelity even though she says she has no choice because it is just silly?

    Above babe now contradicts your claims of believing in fidelity.
    I will have been married 40 years this next May 19th!! *L* I spent many years "conventional", and the reasons for the difference are medical. *S*......
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I will have been married 40 years this next May 19th!! *L* I spent many years "conventional", and the reasons for the difference are medical. *S*......
    I congratulate you. Not many manage this..
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  47. #347  
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I will have been married 40 years this next May 19th!! *L* I spent many years "conventional", and the reasons for the difference are medical. *S*......
    I congratulate you. Not many manage this..
    Hey we haven't made it yet. Know someone married for 50 years....day after he asked for a divorce! *chuckle*...We are comfortable in our own skin....we have learned to fight pretty fair. He recognizes my free spirit, and I recognize that that isn't him. Had his parents had to choose a bride for him. It would not have been me. However we are off subject. Thanks for the sentiment.
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  48. #348  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I will have been married 40 years this next May 19th!! *L* I spent many years "conventional", and the reasons for the difference are medical. *S*......
    I congratulate you. Not many manage this..
    Hey we haven't made it yet. Know someone married for 50 years....day after he asked for a divorce! *chuckle*...We are comfortable in our own skin....we have learned to fight pretty fair. He recognizes my free spirit, and I recognize that that isn't him. Had his parents had to choose a bride for him. It would not have been me. However we are off subject. Thanks for the sentiment.
    Sure. We live day by day and make the most of it.
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  49. #349  
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    There is no such thing as a standard relationship.
    Oh FFS I didn't say "standard" I wrote "normative".

    Essentially you are asserting here that if babe spent more time with her spouse, she would thus have to believe in fidelity even though she says she has no choice because it is just silly?
    And again a stunning lack of comprehension on your part.
    I wrote that in a "typical" (i.e. more or less constant cohabitation) fidelity is assumed to be the default.
    I'm fully aware that there are marriages where extra marital is not only taken for granted but promoted: that's not the "norm".

    Above babe now contradicts your claims of this necessary believing in fidelity. Do you still assert that she must believe given that situation?
    Learn to f*cking read. Babe pointed out that due to her circumstances fidelity as a basic assumption would be foolish.

    Quote Originally Posted by babe
    and Sir Ducky!! I had to chuckle at your comment about my circumstances being "peculiar".
    Deliberately;
    Peculiar: Belonging distinctively or primarily to one person, group, or kind.
    In this context: specific to you.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  50. #350  
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    Dywyddr said:

    [QUOTELearn to f*cking read. Babe pointed out that due to her circumstances fidelity as a basic assumption would be foolish.
    ][/QUOTE]

    You are correct.
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    I think we are witnessing the new record of riding a dead horse from Dywyddyr...
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  52. #352  
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    I think that, as babe has specifically has endorsed my interpretation, you're barking up the wrong tree.
    Entirely.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    babe,

    would your beliefs in this matter be any different if you were most of the time together with your spouse?
    Nope.

    My point is this. I don't chose to believe in god or not. I do not chose to believe in my husband being faithful.
    Ok. I was not fully aware of your situation.

    Do you see that in some situation you would necessarily believe in fidelity?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    I think that, as babe has specifically has endorsed my interpretation, you're barking up the wrong tree.
    Entirely.
    Your position is actually hopeless.

    People say that they do not believe but accept the contradictory possibility. You are asserting that they do believe (do not accept the possibility of the contrary).

    I am just watching how long you keep riding that dead horse
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  55. #355  
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Your position is actually hopeless.
    Obviously your comprehension difficulties are more severe than I originally supposed.

    People say that they do not believe but accept the contradictory possibility. You are asserting that they do believe.
    What?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  56. #356  
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    babe,

    would your beliefs in this matter be any different if you were most of the time together with your spouse?
    Nope.

    My point is this. I don't chose to believe in god or not. I do not chose to believe in my husband being faithful.
    Ok. I was not fully aware of your situation.

    Do you see that in some situation you would necessarily believe in fidelity?
    Nope. Not anymore than I would necessarily believe in god!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Your position is actually hopeless.
    Obviously your comprehension difficulties are more severe than I originally supposed.

    People say that they do not believe but accept the contradictory possibility. You are asserting that they do believe.
    What?
    Talking about comprehension difficulties.

    I told you I don't believe, I accept the possibilities of different outcomes. You keep asserting that I believe and do not accept the possibilities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Nope. Not anymore than I would necessarily believe in god!
    Exactly. I don't see why the ducky keeps asserting otherwise.
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  59. #359  
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    I told you I don't believe, I accept the possibilities of different outcomes. You keep asserting that I believe and do not accept the possibilities.
    Yeees.
    You appear to have not only dismissed everything I have posted and but also resorted to lying.

    Off to the ignore list with you.
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  60. #360  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    I told you I don't believe, I accept the possibilities of different outcomes. You keep asserting that I believe and do not accept the possibilities.
    Yeees.
    You appear to have not only dismissed everything I have posted and but also resorted to lying.

    Off to the ignore list with you.
    This is just hilarious…

    Another assertion with no explanation.
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  61. #361  
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Nope. Not anymore than I would necessarily believe in god!
    Exactly. I don't see why the ducky keeps asserting otherwise.
    Could the ducky provide just one more response to this? I'm hoping that's not too much to ask...
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  62. #362  
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Nope. Not anymore than I would necessarily believe in god!
    Exactly. I don't see why the ducky keeps asserting otherwise.
    Could the ducky provide just one more response to this? I'm hoping that's not too much to ask...
    That is his decision. I am not getting in the middle of anyone's pissing match. *chuckle*.....you can ask him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    That is his decision. I am not getting in the middle of anyone's pissing match. *chuckle*.....you can ask him.
    Yes, that question was meant for him. He's probably already got his fingers in his ears and doing the typical what is associated with it
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    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    He's probably already got his fingers in his ears and doing the typical what is associated with it
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    Quote Originally Posted by sir ir r aj View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by van erst View Post
    He's probably already got his fingers in his ears and doing the typical what is associated with it
    Ok. Back to topic
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Ok, my definition of spirit is the finer matter of matter; the courser matter is what my body is made of. I think that matter itself is broken down into smaller matter until it reaches a state we call spirit. This spirit is no longer governed by the laws of touch, but by the laws of feeling. There is a physical body and a spiritual body; they are the same but function on two different levels. The mind is made of these two types of matter. If you want to look at this from another perspective you can use light. There are two lights, one dark and one light. The spirit works with dark light, and the bright light works with the physical body. You have to be careful how you analyze this, because it is my interpretation of spirit and matter, this is how I know my being and how I function.
    I hope I have given you some insight of my interpretation of spirit.
    So it's quantum in size? (Until science facilitates you with a form of matter even more ambiguous?)

    What if, what you feel as spirit is just electricity in your nerves?

    Take in a long breath, feel a deep love for all of existence, realize yourself as both part of, and the totality of the universe... get that really nice feeling... all throughout your... nerves... Conclusion? Electrical signal. Feels nice. Electricity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velexia View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Ok, my definition of spirit is the finer matter of matter; the courser matter is what my body is made of. I think that matter itself is broken down into smaller matter until it reaches a state we call spirit. This spirit is no longer governed by the laws of touch, but by the laws of feeling. There is a physical body and a spiritual body; they are the same but function on two different levels. The mind is made of these two types of matter. If you want to look at this from another perspective you can use light. There are two lights, one dark and one light. The spirit works with dark light, and the bright light works with the physical body. You have to be careful how you analyze this, because it is my interpretation of spirit and matter, this is how I know my being and how I function.
    I hope I have given you some insight of my interpretation of spirit.
    So it's quantum in size? (Until science facilitates you with a form of matter even more ambiguous?)

    What if, what you feel as spirit is just electricity in your nerves?

    Take in a long breath, feel a deep love for all of existence, realize yourself as both part of, and the totality of the universe... get that really nice feeling... all throughout your... nerves... Conclusion? Electrical signal. Feels nice. Electricity.
    It makes my hair frizzle!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Velexia View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Ok, my definition of spirit is the finer matter of matter; the courser matter is what my body is made of. I think that matter itself is broken down into smaller matter until it reaches a state we call spirit. This spirit is no longer governed by the laws of touch, but by the laws of feeling. There is a physical body and a spiritual body; they are the same but function on two different levels. The mind is made of these two types of matter. If you want to look at this from another perspective you can use light. There are two lights, one dark and one light. The spirit works with dark light, and the bright light works with the physical body. You have to be careful how you analyze this, because it is my interpretation of spirit and matter, this is how I know my being and how I function.
    I hope I have given you some insight of my interpretation of spirit.
    So it's quantum in size? (Until science facilitates you with a form of matter even more ambiguous?)

    What if, what you feel as spirit is just electricity in your nerves?

    Take in a long breath, feel a deep love for all of existence, realize yourself as both part of, and the totality of the universe... get that really nice feeling... all throughout your... nerves... Conclusion? Electrical signal. Feels nice. Electricity.
    All a matter of definition, the ultimate quantum experience.
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    I think the difference is, one of the is real, and the other is wishful thinking.
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