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Thread: What does it mean and take to be a human being?

  1. #101  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Could not a higher lifeform (should one exist) say the same of us in their shadow? Does that negate free will? Is free will relative? Why does our observational perspective determine free will when it seems such a thing should be an absolute?

    I feel like I'm missing a piece of the puzzle here.
    Flick, I think you missed my point, perhaps I wasn't clear about it. The whole point of my overly written post was: "When one is unable to differentiate between the right and wrong and simply hurts someone because of its ignorance in this matter, it simply means it did not freely choose to do it". And what do we call when it did not get to freely choose to do something or not? Let us say we completely remove all the choices in every matter of our lives, will we then have any free will at all? Does a computer have a free will? How does the ability of our picking between the right and wrong does not extend out free will to a greater level then that of animal? Anyways, I think I tried to be as clear as I can be, but you can of course disagree with me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    "When one is unable to differentiate between the right and wrong and simply hurts someone because of its ignorance in this matter, it simply means it did not freely choose to do it".
    This too is a fallacious unsupported argument.
    Simply because one doesn't know right from wrong does NOT mean that hurting someone is not a choice.
    The action could be a choice: the morality of that action (being right or wrong) is not predicated on whether its performance it was choice or not.

    How does the ability of our picking between the right and wrong does not extend out free will to a greater level then that of animal?
    How does it?
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  3. #103  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    "When one is unable to differentiate between the right and wrong and simply hurts someone because of its ignorance in this matter, it simply means it did not freely choose to do it".
    My point is that right and wrong are relative and your perception is not grounds for determining free will. Does a human with a neurological condition which prevents empathy imply that they no longer have free will because they cannot determine right and wrong? How is that in any way related to "ignorance"?

    If you want this debate to continue in a meaningful way, define right and wrong in an absolute sense for me.
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    It has been demonstrated in a lab that our brain can make decisions over 5 -7 seconds before we are conscious of the decision we feel we just made. What does that say about free will?
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    The only thing it takes to be human is to be born to human parents. But I assume you are talking about being a good caring human. Whenever I'm watching some very violent movie or TV program and I hear the term "inhuman" used I always think to myself humans have been doing that sort of thing and worse ever sense there have been humans, so it is very human. It's in the human nature to do those things. If it wasn't we wouldn't need laws to punish those who let their evil human nature get out of hand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    "When one is unable to differentiate between the right and wrong and simply hurts someone because of its ignorance in this matter, it simply means it did not freely choose to do it".
    My point is that right and wrong are relative and your perception is not grounds for determining free will. Does a human with a neurological condition which prevents empathy imply that they no longer have free will because they cannot determine right and wrong? How is that in any way related to "ignorance"?

    If you want this debate to continue in a meaningful way, define right and wrong in an absolute sense for me.
    When an insane person commits a murder do we sentence him the same punishment as we would for a sane person? we all know the answer for it which is a "NO". Its because that such a person was ignorant of the fact that he was doing something wrong and did not really get to freely choose between the two. He acted not upon his free will but just did something without really realising what he was doing.

    If a person gets hit by a car and gets killed we do not destroy the car. The car did not do it out of its free will, but the driver might have intentionally done for which we hold him responsible.

    All this tells me that choices are directly related to free will! Not having a sense of right and wrong is one extra reason to limit one's free will.
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    So insane people and sufferers of autism are like cars.

    Gotcha...

    Not to address something more important, but you could define right and wrong like I asked?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    So insane people and sufferers of autism are like cars.

    Gotcha...

    Not to address something more important, but you could define right and wrong like I asked?
    You already know I did not mean that and only gave two different examples.

    You and I both know the definition of right and wrong. You are obviously taking everything I say out of context, so Its better I step back and let you win the debate and save time for both of us. Take care!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Its because that such a person was ignorant of the fact that he was doing something wrong and did not really get to freely choose between the two. He acted not upon his free will but just did something without really realising what he was doing.
    Bullshit.
    The fact that he didn't know (in the case of mental impairment) that it was wrong to act in a particular way does NOT mean that he didn't actually choose to perpetrate that act.

    If a person gets hit by a car and gets killed we do not destroy the car. The car did not do it out of its free will, but the driver might have intentionally done for which we hold him responsible.
    If a person in car turns too quickly and hits a pedestrian do you decide that he didn't choose to turn the wheel?
    According to you, because hurt was caused, the driver acted involuntarily.

    All this tells me that choices are directly related to free will!
    That's known as a tautology.

    Not having a sense of right and wrong is one extra reason to limit one's free will.
    And that's known as unmitigated unsubstantiated bollocks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    You already know I did not mean that and only gave two different examples.
    No. I don't know what you mean. You implied that anyone and anything which A) Doesn't conform to your ideals of right and wrong and B) Is ignorant of the outcome of their/its actions does not have free will.

    In this narrow definition of free will, I see no difference between a car and a person with a neurological disorder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    You and I both know the definition of right and wrong.
    No, no, no. You cannot simply cop out by suggesting that I understand your definition. If you are arbitrarily applying free will based upon an ideal, you should be able to explain it.

    You need to define the parameters you're using. What is the definition of right and wrong you're using? Is it absolute or is it relative to your mindset? You and I may genuinely differ on our perceptions of right and wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    "When one is unable to differentiate between the right and wrong and simply hurts someone because of its ignorance in this matter, it simply means it did not freely choose to do it".
    My point is that right and wrong are relative and your perception is not grounds for determining free will. Does a human with a neurological condition which prevents empathy imply that they no longer have free will because they cannot determine right and wrong? How is that in any way related to "ignorance"?

    If you want this debate to continue in a meaningful way, define right and wrong in an absolute sense for me.
    When an insane person commits a murder do we sentence him the same punishment as we would for a sane person? we all know the answer for it which is a "NO". Its because that such a person was ignorant of the fact that he was doing something wrong and did not really get to freely choose between the two. He acted not upon his free will but just did something without really realizing what he was doing.

    If a person gets hit by a car and gets killed we do not destroy the car. The car did not do it out of its free will, but the driver might have intentionally done for which we hold him responsible.

    All this tells me that choices are directly related to free will! Not having a sense of right and wrong is one extra reason to limit one's free will.
    I'm not sure how this topic got side tracked into a free will discussion but even sociopaths know the difference between right and wrong, they just don't care one way or the other. But they do care about getting caught and punished. The fact is not all sociopaths are bad people, many live as good citizens for their entire lives. That doesn't mean they won't have a great deal of trouble in all their personal relationships.

    Getting back to choices and free will. Here's an example that does cloud the issue a bit. You are born into a religious family and are taught to believe in a Christen God. Later when you are an adult, you will swear up and down that it was your choice an free will to believe in God. I will submit there are very few choices you will make in life that are close to being made as a result of your free will.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    What does the word human really means as opposed to man, or mankind?
    It means the same "thing" to ask what the word butterfly means opposed to the subspecies of rhopalocera. It might be better to ask why the word "meaning" holds such a significance to people in general.
    Because(based on my thoughts) as a conscious species, the awareness that almost everything that we as human make seem have a meaning behind them, we probably try to find meaning in supposedly meaningless stuff to bring peace to our minds of purpose. If a world is meaningless, your existence and mine, i probably could never be at peace. I would further question why does it all have to revolve around chance, why this why that, all in self denial that something or anything is meaningless. To be in the soup of something so big called the universe, and finding it just here without meaning without any form of anything that would speak out to us, then why did we even gain consciousness in the first place? Of all things, why us? Chance would say that consciousness or awareness is meaningless since it just was meant to be and be here it is, there is no why, no need to discuss, no need to even ponder its existence, because whatever meaning is there, its all a mash of personal ideas to attach a meaningless life with meaning. To many, a meaningless existence is a hopeless existence, because your significance is not anymore different than the wood on the floor in my house.

    It can hardly leave everyone at peace. It is not everyone's cup of tea either to have this wasted space, this void existence to have to struggle for survival when even if we die as a species, there won't be anything as significant or spectacular that would impact the universe in anyway. Its like a paradox, that all this vast universe, is empty of meaning. So big is its scope, but so pointless is its existence. Its like asking a man why did he build a castle above a mountain with his reply because i did it that way. Some would accept, others can't. So this search for meaning, for what does it mean to be human beings. Because being humans beings means nothing in this big endless empty space, and if we are ponder, do we really mean nothing? That all this knowledge and truths now, their coherence only applies to us as humans, if another species were to see this they would think that all of it is non-sense, a dog probably wouldn't understand the importance of finding the circumference of a circle, and do you too find any importance in it?

    So wouldn't we try to associate more knowledge to give it meaning, so that the circumference of a circle isn't just some random distance? So to you as a question, when you ask for a meaning on anything, have you thought that it was ever meaningless, that it was there by chance, that you are there by chance to see it be there by chance, that it shares no importance? That whatever you learnt has always been a combination of simple ideas to something complicated and abstract, but when you look at all these basic concepts and define them, what are they?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    The only thing it takes to be human is to be born to human parents. But I assume you are talking about being a good caring human. Whenever I'm watching some very violent movie or TV program and I hear the term "inhuman" used I always think to myself humans have been doing that sort of thing and worse ever sense there have been humans, so it is very human. It's in the human nature to do those things. If it wasn't we wouldn't need laws to punish those who let their evil human nature get out of hand.
    So would inhumane be a better terminology?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    The only thing it takes to be human is to be born to human parents. But I assume you are talking about being a good caring human. Whenever I'm watching some very violent movie or TV program and I hear the term "inhuman" used I always think to myself humans have been doing that sort of thing and worse ever sense there have been humans, so it is very human. It's in the human nature to do those things. If it wasn't we wouldn't need laws to punish those who let their evil human nature get out of hand.
    I have no preference for any human, good bad, a monster or messiah, a scientist or religious leader, etc etc. Stark comparisons like morality of whether there is right or wrong wouldn't be the main focus. What is the main focus is what you as people view as humans, context is all up to the answerer and what i find questions that are so restricted that it provides answers with a lack of flexibility, are questions that i do not enjoy nor would it bring new insight. In the end knowledge is to me, nothing more than personal ideas stuck together with reason, emotions, language and our perceptions so that it is coherent and abides to what ever influences could be in the surrounding, so i rather learn what you have to say than learn the standard basis of what everyone would just say to be correct, but its not their own form of individual correct. However i did find some nice insight in that bad nature being restricted which i have to agree its quite true =)
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    If you take this forum for example, some people think a question they do not understand is without meaning and immediately reject it. They consider their point of view to be more acceptable to others than yours. I question if it is possible for anyone to pose a stupid question for themself. Is this not a sort of rejection to the reality of life? How can your existence not be important, and how can anyone not contribute to the evolution of life? How can one not make a space to survive? How can a life not have meaning?
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    Sorry Joecate I do not think its that simply.

    What does the word human really means as opposed to man, or mankind?
    What does the Hu-man mean? If it means the same as man, why add hu to it? Mankind does not mean man becaue it sounds more manlike , or similar to man? Do you get what I mean?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    The only thing it takes to be human is to be born to human parents. But I assume you are talking about being a good caring human. Whenever I'm watching some very violent movie or TV program and I hear the term "inhuman" used I always think to myself humans have been doing that sort of thing and worse ever sense there have been humans, so it is very human. It's in the human nature to do those things. If it wasn't we wouldn't need laws to punish those who let their evil human nature get out of hand.
    I have no preference for any human, good bad, a monster or messiah, a scientist or religious leader, etc etc. Stark comparisons like morality of whether there is right or wrong wouldn't be the main focus. What is the main focus is what you as people view as humans, context is all up to the answerer and what i find questions that are so restricted that it provides answers with a lack of flexibility, are questions that i do not enjoy nor would it bring new insight. In the end knowledge is to me, nothing more than personal ideas stuck together with reason, emotions, language and our perceptions so that it is coherent and abides to what ever influences could be in the surrounding, so i rather learn what you have to say than learn the standard basis of what everyone would just say to be correct, but its not their own form of individual correct. However i did find some nice insight in that bad nature being restricted which i have to agree its quite true =)
    I think there is one important factor left out of your interpretation, and that is experience.
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  18. #118  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    The only thing it takes to be human is to be born to human parents. But I assume you are talking about being a good caring human. Whenever I'm watching some very violent movie or TV program and I hear the term "inhuman" used I always think to myself humans have been doing that sort of thing and worse ever sense there have been humans, so it is very human. It's in the human nature to do those things. If it wasn't we wouldn't need laws to punish those who let their evil human nature get out of hand.
    I have no preference for any human, good bad, a monster or messiah, a scientist or religious leader, etc etc. Stark comparisons like morality of whether there is right or wrong wouldn't be the main focus. What is the main focus is what you as people view as humans, context is all up to the answerer and what i find questions that are so restricted that it provides answers with a lack of flexibility, are questions that i do not enjoy nor would it bring new insight. In the end knowledge is to me, nothing more than personal ideas stuck together with reason, emotions, language and our perceptions so that it is coherent and abides to what ever influences could be in the surrounding, so i rather learn what you have to say than learn the standard basis of what everyone would just say to be correct, but its not their own form of individual correct. However i did find some nice insight in that bad nature being restricted which i have to agree its quite true =)
    I think there is one important factor left out of your interpretation, and that is experience.
    There are 4 ways of knowing, emotions, language, reason and sense perceptions. Sense perception as a way of knowing takes into account one's qualia,which is defined as one's subjective experience. Can i ask if you know what the ways of knowing do, or can i safely assume that you have never taken Theory Of knowledge/Philosophy as a course subject?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Sorry Joecate I do not think its that simply.

    What does the word human really means as opposed to man, or mankind?
    What does the Hu-man mean? If it means the same as man, why add hu to it? Mankind does not mean man becaue it sounds more manlike , or similar to man? Do you get what I mean?
    I am explaining to scooby why meaning holds significance, i didn't explain to him the significance of your definition, he already stated the significance when you compare the scientific name of a species to butterfly, what does it mean? Classification of knowledge, a biology topic, thus an area of knowing.
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    jacate, what about intuition and actual work is that not a part of knowledge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    The only thing it takes to be human is to be born to human parents. But I assume you are talking about being a good caring human. Whenever I'm watching some very violent movie or TV program and I hear the term "inhuman" used I always think to myself humans have been doing that sort of thing and worse ever sense there have been humans, so it is very human. It's in the human nature to do those things. If it wasn't we wouldn't need laws to punish those who let their evil human nature get out of hand.
    I have no preference for any human, good bad, a monster or messiah, a scientist or religious leader, etc etc. Stark comparisons like morality of whether there is right or wrong wouldn't be the main focus. What is the main focus is what you as people view as humans, context is all up to the answerer and what i find questions that are so restricted that it provides answers with a lack of flexibility, are questions that i do not enjoy nor would it bring new insight. In the end knowledge is to me, nothing more than personal ideas stuck together with reason, emotions, language and our perceptions so that it is coherent and abides to what ever influences could be in the surrounding, so i rather learn what you have to say than learn the standard basis of what everyone would just say to be correct, but its not their own form of individual correct. However i did find some nice insight in that bad nature being restricted which i have to agree its quite true =)
    Another way to look at what it means to be human, is to place your point of view through an objective remote POV. If you were an alien studying the dominate species on planet Earth, how would you characterize humans?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    jacate, what about intuition and actual work is that not a part of knowledge?
    Intuition is not knowledge.
    What do you mean by "work" as knowledge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    jacate, what about intuition and actual work is that not a part of knowledge?
    Intuition is not knowledge.
    What do you mean by "work" as knowledge?
    I mean physical work experience, does it not register in the physical brain as a part of knowledge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I mean physical work experience, does it not register in the physical brain as a part of knowledge?
    Of what?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    The only thing it takes to be human is to be born to human parents. But I assume you are talking about being a good caring human. Whenever I'm watching some very violent movie or TV program and I hear the term "inhuman" used I always think to myself humans have been doing that sort of thing and worse ever sense there have been humans, so it is very human. It's in the human nature to do those things. If it wasn't we wouldn't need laws to punish those who let their evil human nature get out of hand.
    I have no preference for any human, good bad, a monster or messiah, a scientist or religious leader, etc etc. Stark comparisons like morality of whether there is right or wrong wouldn't be the main focus. What is the main focus is what you as people view as humans, context is all up to the answerer and what i find questions that are so restricted that it provides answers with a lack of flexibility, are questions that i do not enjoy nor would it bring new insight. In the end knowledge is to me, nothing more than personal ideas stuck together with reason, emotions, language and our perceptions so that it is coherent and abides to what ever influences could be in the surrounding, so i rather learn what you have to say than learn the standard basis of what everyone would just say to be correct, but its not their own form of individual correct. However i did find some nice insight in that bad nature being restricted which i have to agree its quite true =)
    Another way to look at what it means to be human, is to place your point of view through an objective remote POV. If you were an alien studying the dominate species on planet Earth, how would you characterize humans?
    You would still end up with your subject view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I mean physical work experience, does it not register in the physical brain as a part of knowledge?
    Of what?
    If you carve a human out of stone, is it not work, experience, and knowledge?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I mean physical work experience, does it not register in the physical brain as a part of knowledge?
    Of what?
    If you carve a human out of stone, is it not work, experience, and knowledge?
    I'll try again: knowledge of what?
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    I'll try again: knowledge of what?
    Knowledge of what you have created.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I'll try again: knowledge of what?
    Knowledge of what you have created.
    Huh?
    I'm not following you at all.
    Knowledge.
    In other words it's only knowledge if you actually learn something from it: work, in and of itself isn't knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Because(based on my thoughts) as a conscious species, the awareness that almost everything that we as human make seem have a meaning behind them, we probably try to find meaning in supposedly meaningless stuff to bring peace to our minds of purpose.

    If a world is meaningless, your existence and mine, i probably could never be at peace. I would further question why does it all have to revolve around chance, why this why that, all in self denial that something or anything is meaningless. To be in the soup of something so big called the universe, and finding it just here without meaning without any form of anything that would speak out to us, then why did we even gain consciousness in the first place? Of all things, why us? Chance would say that consciousness or awareness is meaningless since it just was meant to be and be here it is, there is no why, no need to discuss, no need to even ponder its existence, because whatever meaning is there, its all a mash of personal ideas to attach a meaningless life with meaning. To many, a meaningless existence is a hopeless existence, because your significance is not anymore different than the wood on the floor in my house.

    It can hardly leave everyone at peace. It is not everyone's cup of tea either to have this wasted space, this void existence to have to struggle for survival when even if we die as a species, there won't be anything as significant or spectacular that would impact the universe in anyway. Its like a paradox, that all this vast universe, is empty of meaning. So big is its scope, but so pointless is its existence. Its like asking a man why did he build a castle above a mountain with his reply because i did it that way. Some would accept, others can't. So this search for meaning, for what does it mean to be human beings. Because being humans beings means nothing in this big endless empty space, and if we are ponder, do we really mean nothing? That all this knowledge and truths now, their coherence only applies to us as humans, if another species were to see this they would think that all of it is non-sense, a dog probably wouldn't understand the importance of finding the circumference of a circle, and do you too find any importance in it?

    So wouldn't we try to associate more knowledge to give it meaning, so that the circumference of a circle isn't just some random distance? So to you as a question, when you ask for a meaning on anything, have you thought that it was ever meaningless, that it was there by chance, that you are there by chance to see it be there by chance, that it shares no importance? That whatever you learnt has always been a combination of simple ideas to something complicated and abstract, but when you look at all these basic concepts and define them, what are they?
    I've once mentioned my suspicion that that was in part due to the desire for motivation on a different thread. That the desire for meaning and purpose seems to motivate some of us in what appears to be a harsh and possibly uncertain environment; "to keep us going" for lack of a better substitute. Also, that our brains and mind seem rather apt and inapt in pattern recognition; depending on how it processes available/filtered information, and thus leading to what we now identify as various forms of cognitive bias (such as confirmation and/or selection bias).

    The "why" questions in search of answers and meanings also ties into our hunger for knowledge (not necessarily factual, accurate, or complete) to stay that hunger. Some or many of us are uncomfortable with uncertainty as that at times leaves us in a state of not knowing what to do or how to proceed from a hypothetical "there on". To be lacking in meaning removes motivation and possibly incentives to carry on, similarly so when we are deprived/denied of it even if knowledge that provides answers and meaning are out of reach by various obstacles. This much has been observed by myself and possibly you and others.

    It should also be brought up that not everyone is uncomfortable with the lack of meanings, and that may be due to the fact that they derive motivation from somewhere else, or that they are preoccupied with other matters that may provide motivation. I did also at one time wondered if it may be due to some form of impaired evolutionary instinct in the following thread below

    Is life meaningless ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I'll try again: knowledge of what?
    Knowledge of what you have created.
    Huh?
    I'm not following you at all.
    Knowledge.
    In other words it's only knowledge if you actually learn something from it: work, in and of itself isn't knowledge.
    Well, lets say personal knowledge. If you have no experience of a thing it is in my view information and not knowledge, at least self knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Well, lets say personal knowledge.
    I'm having difficulty in understanding which part you missed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    it's only knowledge if you actually learn something from it: work, in and of itself isn't knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Because(based on my thoughts) as a conscious species, the awareness that almost everything that we as human make seem have a meaning behind them, we probably try to find meaning in supposedly meaningless stuff to bring peace to our minds of purpose.

    If a world is meaningless, your existence and mine, i probably could never be at peace. I would further question why does it all have to revolve around chance, why this why that, all in self denial that something or anything is meaningless. To be in the soup of something so big called the universe, and finding it just here without meaning without any form of anything that would speak out to us, then why did we even gain consciousness in the first place? Of all things, why us? Chance would say that consciousness or awareness is meaningless since it just was meant to be and be here it is, there is no why, no need to discuss, no need to even ponder its existence, because whatever meaning is there, its all a mash of personal ideas to attach a meaningless life with meaning. To many, a meaningless existence is a hopeless existence, because your significance is not anymore different than the wood on the floor in my house.

    It can hardly leave everyone at peace. It is not everyone's cup of tea either to have this wasted space, this void existence to have to struggle for survival when even if we die as a species, there won't be anything as significant or spectacular that would impact the universe in anyway. Its like a paradox, that all this vast universe, is empty of meaning. So big is its scope, but so pointless is its existence. Its like asking a man why did he build a castle above a mountain with his reply because i did it that way. Some would accept, others can't. So this search for meaning, for what does it mean to be human beings. Because being humans beings means nothing in this big endless empty space, and if we are ponder, do we really mean nothing? That all this knowledge and truths now, their coherence only applies to us as humans, if another species were to see this they would think that all of it is non-sense, a dog probably wouldn't understand the importance of finding the circumference of a circle, and do you too find any importance in it?

    So wouldn't we try to associate more knowledge to give it meaning, so that the circumference of a circle isn't just some random distance? So to you as a question, when you ask for a meaning on anything, have you thought that it was ever meaningless, that it was there by chance, that you are there by chance to see it be there by chance, that it shares no importance? That whatever you learnt has always been a combination of simple ideas to something complicated and abstract, but when you look at all these basic concepts and define them, what are they?
    I've once mentioned my suspicion that that was in part due to the desire for motivation on a different thread. That the desire for meaning and purpose seems to motivate some of us in what appears to be a harsh and possibly uncertain environment; "to keep us going" for lack of a better substitute. Also, that our brains and mind seem rather apt and inapt in pattern recognition; depending on how it processes available/filtered information, and thus leading to what we now identify as various forms of cognitive bias (such as confirmation and/or selection bias).

    The "why" questions in search of answers and meanings also ties into our hunger for knowledge (not necessarily factual, accurate, or complete) to stay that hunger. Some or many of us are uncomfortable with uncertainty as that at times leaves us in a state of not knowing what to do or how to proceed from a hypothetical "there on". To be lacking in meaning removes motivation and possibly incentives to carry on, similarly so when we are deprived/denied of it even if knowledge that provides answers and meaning are out of reach by various obstacles. This much has been observed by myself and possibly you and others.

    It should also be brought up that not everyone is uncomfortable with the lack of meanings, and that may be due to the fact that they derive motivation from somewhere else, or that they are preoccupied with other matters that may provide motivation. I did also at one time wondered if it may be due to some form of impaired evolutionary instinct in the following thread below

    Is life meaningless ?
    What you say in the 2nd and 3rd para is true. However the post doesn't revolve mainly on does life have meaning or purpose, rather what does it mean to be it, but not the meaning of its existence. So what does it mean to be human and does it take to be one, is the topic question based on the title. However there is no lack of a better substitute because all answers can be accepted, its all based on one's knowledge, not a system that exist objectively outside of their own ways of knowing, but knowledge that comes personal to them.

    I guess this thread probably came off the wrong footing, but to clarify, this is not just about the existential question of why humans exist, but also what does it mean to be a human being and what does it take to be one. I admit to be quite out of point when trying to explain the significance of meaning, but the use of existential meaning is easier to explain than the meaning of what it is to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    jacate, what about intuition and actual work is that not a part of knowledge?
    Clearly you never studied any of these subjects, Intuition is also taken into account in the way of knowing called emotions. I have made a discussion once about the viability of it being a separate form of the ways of knowing, but in conclusion despite it being able to be one of the ways of knowing, it is highly unreliable and it is based on that gut feeling, which assumes that no reasoning has taken place. All things are part of knowledge, which are considered a justified truth belief, however these ideas you are describing are related to how we gain knowledge but to apply it and to classify it there are many different methods which neither one is without their pros or cons, furthermore most of these methods depend on reason to be classified.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    I guess this thread probably came off the wrong footing, but to clarify, this is not just about the existential question of why humans exist, but also what does it mean to be a human being and what does it take to be one. I admit to be quite out of point when trying to explain the significance of meaning, but the use of existential meaning is easier to explain than the meaning of what it is to be.
    Was my answer in post #99 not satisfactory?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    I guess this thread probably came off the wrong footing, but to clarify, this is not just about the existential question of why humans exist, but also what does it mean to be a human being and what does it take to be one. I admit to be quite out of point when trying to explain the significance of meaning, but the use of existential meaning is easier to explain than the meaning of what it is to be.
    Was my answer in post #99 not satisfactory?
    It was, the post i made was directed to the your comment to my answer , which was the answer to the question to pose stargate. So overall just trying to provide more understanding.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I mean physical work experience, does it not register in the physical brain as a part of knowledge?
    Of what?
    If you carve a human out of stone, is it not work, experience, and knowledge?
    Stone isn't human. You did work carving the sculpture. You did learn about stone carving while carving the sculpture. IMHO.
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  36. #136  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    You did learn about stone carving while carving the sculpture. IMHO.
    This is what I'm disputing.
    You don't always learn by doing something.

    How well was it carved?
    How much thought and consideration was given to each cut?
    If someone simply hacked away with a blunt chisel and hammer until an acceptable result eventuated how much was actually learned?

    Personal anecdote: me & woodworking.
    Despite, over the years, many attempts (especially at school) to teach me woodwork and the fact that my father was a hugely skilled joiner and I grew up with a hammer, nail and "piece o' yud" in my hands, woodworking tends to elude me.
    Sure, I can get a result, sure, shelves (generally) stay up, but... I have no "feel" for it. Each job tends to be approached as a completely fresh task and zero relation to what happened last time.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  37. #137  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    You did learn about stone carving while carving the sculpture. IMHO.
    This is what I'm disputing.
    You don't always learn by doing something.

    How well was it carved?
    How much thought and consideration was given to each cut?
    If someone simply hacked away with a blunt chisel and hammer until an acceptable result eventuated how much was actually learned?

    Personal anecdote: me & woodworking.
    Despite, over the years, many attempts (especially at school) to teach me woodwork and the fact that my father was a hugely skilled joiner and I grew up with a hammer, nail and "piece o' yud" in my hands, woodworking tends to elude me.
    Sure, I can get a result, sure, shelves (generally) stay up, but... I have no "feel" for it. Each job tends to be approached as a completely fresh task and zero relation to what happened last time.
    I will never agree with you on this. Ever.

    YOU ALWAYS LEARN BY DOING!

    Many people are hands ON people and that is their learning curve, and not by reading, studying or observation, they need to do it.

    Sorry Mr. Ducky we shall not agree on this.

    You learned how to work with the stone.

    You learned how it reacted to how you tried to chisel it.

    YOU LEARNED from your mistakes.

    You learned how to create art from a piece of stone.

    You also take that knowledge the next time you work with a piece of stone...as to it's character..where it will splinter more....where is the best place to chisel this form....what stone NOT to buy for it's inability to create what you wish to.

    My father was also in his spare time a woodcrafter.

    You have that creativity or you don't.

    You didn't.

    I don't have it for what you do.

    Doesn't make either of us less.

    It would be pretty boring if we could all do everything everyone else can do in life.

    Ya think?
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  38. #138  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    YOU ALWAYS LEARN BY DOING!
    Untrue.

    YOU LEARNED from your mistakes.
    ONLY if you reflect on them.

    You also take that knowledge the next time you work with a piece of stone...as to it's character..where it will splinter more....where is the best place to chisel this form
    ONLY if you give it consideration.

    Like I said: each woodworking job I take on is approached from a beginner's POV - nothing carried over from previous attempts.

    Learning by doing requires repetition and concentration.
    And, it should be noted, that repetition needs to be closely-spaced - you don't learn to do something by doing it once a year.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  39. #139  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    YOU ALWAYS LEARN BY DOING!
    Untrue.

    YOU LEARNED from your mistakes.
    ONLY if you reflect on them.

    You also take that knowledge the next time you work with a piece of stone...as to it's character..where it will splinter more....where is the best place to chisel this form
    ONLY if you give it consideration.

    Like I said: each woodworking job I take on is approached from a beginner's POV - nothing carried over from previous attempts.

    Learning by doing requires repetition and concentration.
    And, it should be noted, that repetition needs to be closely-spaced - you don't learn to do something by doing it once a year.
    We shall not agree on this, Sir Ducky.

    Period.

    I have learned more from every show I did in every way shape or form.

    My father learned when crafting everytime he did a new project. We used to discuss it. My family dining table on the Mainland reflects that.



    I shall not argue with you as I do not agree with you in any way, shape or form on this subject and I stand firmly on this.

    Aloha's Sir Ducky
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  40. #140  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I have learned more from every show I did in every way shape or form.
    My father learned when crafting everytime he did a new project. We used to discuss it. My family dining table on the Mainland reflects that.
    Because you gave consideration to what you were doing?
    Because you reflected on what you did, and how you did it?
    Because it meant something?



    Presumably, then, since you did mathematics at school, you learned all about it and could do any problem that you "learned" then now?
    Or maybe you just learned how to do those particular portions of the discipline that you repeated time and again and that you concentrated on learning.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Sir Ducky

    Because you gave consideration to what you were doing? YES Because you reflected on what you did, and how you did it? YES

    Because it meant something? YES and because I could carry it to the next level



    Presumably, then, since you did mathematics at school, you learned all about it and could do any problem that you "learned" then now?

    I hated Math fiercely. frankly and honestly. I wound up doing my other job as most actors do in accounting strangely....but did I like Math..NO NO NO NO NO
    It scared the hell out of me. However I did manage about 4 million budget....doing it wasn't hard...the process for me was.

    Or maybe you just learned how to do those particular portions of the discipline that you repeated time and again and that you concentrated on learning. I do nothing not concentrating on learning!! *S*

    nor do I do it half assed....Sir Ducky
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    Actually, Sir Ducky....nothing much I learned in school could I reply to the reality of doing it in real life.

    IN any aspect of studies...

    ok.....I'm wrong

    I can throw a vase
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  43. #143  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    You did learn about stone carving while carving the sculpture. IMHO.
    This is what I'm disputing.
    You don't always learn by doing something.

    How well was it carved?
    How much thought and consideration was given to each cut?
    If someone simply hacked away with a blunt chisel and hammer until an acceptable result eventuated how much was actually learned?

    Personal anecdote: me & woodworking.
    Despite, over the years, many attempts (especially at school) to teach me woodwork and the fact that my father was a hugely skilled joiner and I grew up with a hammer, nail and "piece o' yud" in my hands, woodworking tends to elude me.
    Sure, I can get a result, sure, shelves (generally) stay up, but... I have no "feel" for it. Each job tends to be approached as a completely fresh task and zero relation to what happened last time.
    I will never agree with you on this. Ever.

    YOU ALWAYS LEARN BY DOING!

    Many people are hands ON people and that is their learning curve, and not by reading, studying or observation, they need to do it.

    Sorry Mr. Ducky we shall not agree on this.

    You learned how to work with the stone.

    You learned how it reacted to how you tried to chisel it.

    YOU LEARNED from your mistakes.

    You learned how to create art from a piece of stone.

    You also take that knowledge the next time you work with a piece of stone...as to it's character..where it will splinter more....where is the best place to chisel this form....what stone NOT to buy for it's inability to create what you wish to.

    My father was also in his spare time a woodcrafter.

    You have that creativity or you don't.

    You didn't.

    I don't have it for what you do.

    Doesn't make either of us less.

    It would be pretty boring if we could all do everything everyone else can do in life.

    Ya think?
    I will always agree with you on this Babe, because it makes sense to me.
    babe likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I have learned more from every show I did in every way shape or form.
    My father learned when crafting everytime he did a new project. We used to discuss it. My family dining table on the Mainland reflects that.
    Because you gave consideration to what you were doing?
    Because you reflected on what you did, and how you did it?
    Because it meant something?



    Presumably, then, since you did mathematics at school, you learned all about it and could do any problem that you "learned" then now?
    Or maybe you just learned how to do those particular portions of the discipline that you repeated time and again and that you concentrated on learning.
    I am not sure I am understanding anything you say at the moment. Don't you learn anything from what you do? Even if it is not repetitive? I am sorry but Babe is making a lot more sense than you at the moment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I am not sure I am understanding anything you say at the moment. Don't you learn anything from what you do? Even if it is not repetitive? I am sorry but Babe is making a lot more sense than you at the moment.
    I have already stated that, despite having done certain things, I learned nothing about them.

    Simply "doing" mathematics does not mean that you learn mathematics: unless and until you do it repetitively until it gets ingrained.
    This is why lessons take so long - to learn something you MUST repeat and concentrate/ assimilate.
    Ergo: (as I stated) work, in and of itself isn't knowledge.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I am not sure I am understanding anything you say at the moment. Don't you learn anything from what you do? Even if it is not repetitive? I am sorry but Babe is making a lot more sense than you at the moment.
    I have already stated that, despite having done certain things, I learned nothing about them.

    Simply "doing" mathematics does not mean that you learn mathematics: unless and until you do it repetitively until it gets ingrained.
    This is why lessons take so long - to learn something you MUST repeat and concentrate/ assimilate.
    Ergo: (as I stated) work, in and of itself isn't knowledge.
    Although you might not know all of what you are doing you certainly know something. let me get this right, are you saying knowledge does not come from doing?
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  47. #147  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Although you might not know all of what you are doing you certainly know something.
    With regard to what?

    let me get this right, are you saying knowledge does not come from doing?
    Evidently this is true in your case, since you have "done" (i.e. read my post) but not gained any knowledge of what I said.
    Please read, exactly, what I wrote:
    Simply "doing" mathematics does not mean that you learn mathematics: unless and until you do it repetitively until it gets ingrained.
    This is why lessons take so long - to learn something you MUST repeat and concentrate/ assimilate.
    Ergo: (as I stated) work, in and of itself isn't knowledge.

    Knowledge does come from doing: after time and repetition.
    But that wasn't the original claim, or, to be precise, that wasn't the claim as written.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    DYW, please read this although it is a bit long. I would love to hear what you think.

    The question I ask, is it possible to study science before studying self? This question might seem a bit off the mark to some who have never given it a thought. However, if one asks the question, for what, or for whom the study is being made, the answer is most likely going to end up with self as the benefactor. We say science is the study of phenomena, I presume myself to be an entity in the phenomenon of the phenomena. The study of one’s self is specifically centered on the totality of self. To accommodate studying, I must first be conscious that I am aware of what I am intending to do. I must know the methods of studying and the tool I will be using to make the studies. It can be clearly stated that my first realization is that the most important tool I will be using is my brain. If I know a tiny bit of the function of my brain I can do whatever I can with that tiny bit of knowledge to generate more knowledge. This tiny bit of knowledge can help me to widen my scope of knowledge and give me a broader perspective of the study of myself.
    I will call this study the inner study of self. Let me elucidate more clearly what I mean. If I tell myself I would like to drive a car, I must first get a car and get in the car. If I have acquired the knowledge from some source that I can move the car, I would have to know how to do that. It would require the knowledge of learning how to drive the car. There are several gadgets in the car, each of the gadgets need a sequence of operations in order for it to operate correctly, without the knowledge of these sequences the car will not move. There is a possibility that even if I do not know all the sequences that must be implemented to maneuver the car, and I only know some of those sequences, the results derived from that partial knowledge will hinder me when I come to situations where the knowledge will be required. This information will not be available at that given point, because it had not been acquired.
    The most important factor from any study comes from results and the subsequent use of those results on self. If my brain works like a computer, I might have a very good computer, but if I do not know how to use it, or even partially use it, the benefits will be measured on my knowledge base of my computer. Some of the results may be valid, and some may not be, depending on the scope of knowledge that was acquired. The brain computer I spoke of earlier is a tool that analyses internally, and externally. It’s a tool that measures in comparisons. The stored information, let’s call it Solid Reference Information; (SRI) is measured against new incoming information. This stored information must have a basis of experience registered; it ultimately represence the knowledge base that is used by the brain to make its comparisons when making measurements. If the SRI is not valid the brain will return most surely flawed results. This is in some way similar to the way modern day computers works copied from the brain.
    The brain receives three major sequences of impulses when it acquires knowledge. It gathers information on angle of perception, time, and experience; those three requirements make up the basis for what the brain terms as knowledge.

    Information includes everything, or what I term peripheral information; it is the brain that sorts out everything, and places it in its right order. There are different regions in the brain that stores this information. The important thing to know is what the brain registers as experience; I call non- volatile info. What it registers as not personal experience, I will call volatile info, in which case the results may be flawed. Experience is a steady base of physical and mental work that is registered in the base charka or sexual center. It is used for base confirmation reference; knowledge is accumulated from actually doing; together with logical thinking, parts of holistic participation of being. Let me explain. If someone carries out an experiment and the results are satisfactory, someone using these results does not have full knowledge of the fact. Unless the experiment is carried out by each one individually, those results cannot be individually verified within the brain. If individual experience was not involved, the brain would register the results not reliable, why? Because the results were not verified by the individual participation, SRI, is a prerequisite for the brain to classify it as knowledge.
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  49. #149  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    DYW, please read this although it is a bit long. I would love to hear what you think.
    A stunning, specious mix of rubbish, reason and woo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    DYW, please read this although it is a bit long. I would love to hear what you think.
    A stunning, specious mix of rubbish, reason and woo.
    Wow, all of it? you are making me suspecious of your power of reasoning.
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  51. #151  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Wow, all of it? you are making me suspecious of your power of reasoning.
    Yes ALL of it.
    You may note that I distinctly used the word "mix".
    That's an indication that some parts are one thing, some another and others yet another.

    That's alright: I've never had any doubts about the quality of your reasoning (or comprehension): it's lacking.
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  52. #152  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Wow, all of it? you are making me suspecious of your power of reasoning.
    Yes ALL of it.
    You may note that I distinctly used the word "mix".
    That's an indication that some parts are one thing, some another and others yet another.

    That's alright: I've never had any doubts about the quality of your reasoning (or comprehension): it's lacking.
    No problems, I guess we are reflecting our capabilities. I am used to discussing what I find useful as to what I already know. You seem to take the whole cake and attempting to eat it. I might warn you if you are capable of accepting a warning, take it slow it might choke you; I would hate to see that because at times you make some good points.
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  53. #153  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    No problems, I guess we are reflecting our capabilities.

    Or lack of.

    I am used to discussing what I find useful as to what I already know.
    So what do you "know" about the posted essay?

    You seem to take the whole cake and attempting to eat it.
    And?

    I might warn you if you are capable of accepting a warning, take it slow it might choke you
    It hasn't happened so far.

    I would hate to see that because at times you make some good points.
    Then I'm one up on you because so far you haven't.
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  54. #154  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    No problems, I guess we are reflecting our capabilities.

    Or lack of.

    I am used to discussing what I find useful as to what I already know.
    So what do you "know" about the posted essay?

    You seem to take the whole cake and attempting to eat it.
    And?

    I might warn you if you are capable of accepting a warning, take it slow it might choke you
    It hasn't happened so far.

    I would hate to see that because at times you make some good points.

    Then I'm one up on you because so far you haven't.
    You need to learn to read sarcasm, and more importantly read between the lines not everyone can do that. I am sorry we are really digressing from the topic.
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  55. #155  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    You need to learn to read sarcasm, and more importantly read between the lines not everyone can do that.

    You need to stop assuming that I don't.

    I am sorry we are really digressing from the topic.
    I'll ask again: what do you "know" about the essay you posted and what relevance does it have?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  56. #156  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    You need to learn to read sarcasm, and more importantly read between the lines not everyone can do that.

    You need to stop assuming that I don't.

    I am sorry we are really digressing from the topic.

    I'll ask again: what do you "know" about the essay you posted and what relevance does it have?
    Do you know why I can pick up sense out of some of the nonsense you write? It is because no one, I repeat no one, can be only ignorant, there has to be some element of truth in everything a human says. I hope I am not confusing you.


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  57. #157  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Do you know why I can pick up sense out of some of the nonsense you write?

    I'm intrigued.
    Could you point some of the nonsense I've written and explain why it's nonsense?

    It is because no one, I repeat no one, can be only ignorant, there has to be some element of truth in everything a human says. I hope I am not confusing you.
    Not going to answer my questions?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Do you know why I can pick up sense out of some of the nonsense you write?

    I'm intrigued.
    Could you point some of the nonsense I've written and explain why it's nonsense?

    It is because no one, I repeat no one, can be only ignorant, there has to be some element of truth in everything a human says. I hope I am not confusing you.

    Not going to answer my questions?
    DYD, you do not give and it gets tiring when there is no exchange.
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  59. #159  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    DYD, you do not give and it gets tiring when there is no exchange.
    I have explained each time I've been asked.
    YOU are the one refusing to answer my questions.
    YOU are the one making claims and not backing them up.
    I fail to see how I'm the one that's not "giving".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    DYD, you do not give and it gets tiring when there is no exchange.
    I have explained each time I've been asked.
    YOU are the one refusing to answer my questions.
    YOU are the one making claims and not backing them up.
    I fail to see how I'm the one that's not "giving".
    You reject everything I cannot find a space for meaningful dialog. If you found some points where I could be questioned as to why I think that way, then yes, but to constantly reject everything takes the initiative away. It sounds as if you are the only one with something to say and I know that is not true or maybe you can only accept certain things from certain people, there are lots of people like you. Sometimes people get caught up into believing because they visited some high name university no one can tell them anything. Sorry DWY, you sound like one of them. I cannot help it some of the things you say does make sense to me, just not all of it. You are so arrogant that everything I say you reject it, which cannot be normal.
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  61. #161  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    You reject everything I cannot find a space for meaningful dialog.

    And I point out WHY I "reject" it.
    You, on the other hand, do little more than simply reassert your claim, or, as with that essay, appear to divert and STILL fail to provide any explanation.

    If you found some points where I could be questioned as to why I think that way

    You mean like the questions I asked in post
    #157 (not answered), post #159 (not answered), post #161 (not answered)?
    Those sort of points?

    You are so arrogant that everything I say you reject it, which cannot be normal.
    And you are so arrogant that you persistently fail to provide any support for your position.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  62. #162  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    You reject everything I cannot find a space for meaningful dialog.

    And I point out WHY I "reject" it.
    You, on the other hand, do little more than simply reassert your claim, or, as with that essay, appear to divert and STILL fail to provide any explanation.

    If you found some points where I could be questioned as to why I think that way

    You mean like the questions I asked in post
    #157 (not answered), post #159 (not answered), post #161 (not answered)?
    Those sort of points?

    You are so arrogant that everything I say you reject it, which cannot be normal.

    And you are so arrogant that you persistently fail to provide any support for your position.
    I took time out to reply in form of post #152 you reject it totally what should I discuss? Some of what was said there came from learned people, not just from me, what am I supposed to say. I think some of it may be seen with other eyes or different understanding, and that is what I was hoping would take place. Einstein said some beautiful things that did not have to do with relativity.
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  63. #163  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I took time out to reply in form of post #152

    Ah, right.
    That's one question answered: you wrote it.
    (But, yet again, it's a claim with no actual support).

    you reject it totally what should I discuss?
    That would be a lie: go back and re-read what I wrote.

    Some of what was said there came from learned people
    Which parts?
    And what were they "learned" in?

    I think some of it may be seen with other eyes or different understanding, and that is what I was hoping would take place.
    If part of that "different understanding" includes crank crap how does it help?

    Einstein said some beautiful things that did not have to do with relativity.
    So what?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  64. #164  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I took time out to reply in form of post #152

    Ah, right.
    That's one question answered: you wrote it.
    (But, yet again, it's a claim with no actual support).

    you reject it totally what should I discuss?
    That would be a lie: go back and re-read what I wrote.

    Some of what was said there came from learned people
    Which parts?
    And what were they "learned" in?

    I think some of it may be seen with other eyes or different understanding, and that is what I was hoping would take place.
    If part of that "different understanding" includes crank crap how does it help?

    Einstein said some beautiful things that did not have to do with relativity.

    So what?
    Are you referring to my crap, or your crap?
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  65. #165  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Are you referring to my crap, or your crap?
    Your crap.
    I'm still waiting for you to point out mine.

    Note, once again, your failure to answer questions.
    I look forward to you complaining about me not asking them, again.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    [QUOTESo what do you "know" about the posted essay?

    ][/QUOTE]

    We were talking about work being part of experience. I gave you the essay because it adresses that in some ways.
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  67. #167  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    We were talking about work being part of experience. I gave you the essay because it adresses that in some ways.
    But it still doesn't explain - it just claims.
    And (although, given the shotgun approach to punctuation, I'm not entirely sure) this sequence "knowledge is accumulated from actually doing; together with logical thinking," appears to reinforce MY point while NOT supporting yours.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  68. #168  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    We were talking about work being part of experience. I gave you the essay because it adresses that in some ways.
    But it still doesn't explain - it just claims.
    And (although, given the shotgun approach to punctuation, I'm not entirely sure) this sequence "knowledge is accumulated from actually doing; together with logical thinking," appears to reinforce MY point while NOT supporting yours.
    Are you saying you need scientific proof that doing, or work, has nothing to do with accumulating knowledge? Logical thinking might have a place somewhere, but certainly not here.
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  69. #169  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Are you saying you need scientific proof that doing, or work, has nothing to do with accumulating knowledge?

    You have comprehension problems, don't you?
    I have clearly stated my objections to the simplistic claim, more than once in previous posts.
    I have not mentioned, nor requested, "scientific proof".
    If you're going to continue this disingenuity (or dishonesty, I'm not sure which it is) then you're just going to dig your hole deeper.

    Logical thinking might have a place somewhere, but certainly not here.
    Exactly: you persist in making claims.
    You persist in failing to support them.
    You persist in diverting (usually by sliding toward insults).
    You have presented NOTHING BUT claims.

    I have spelled out, more than once (post #132, post #140, post #142, post #144... etc etc etc) that merely "doing" is insufficient.
    It MUST be coupled with something else: repetition (as I mentioned), concentration (as I mentioned), consideration (as I mentioned).
    The portion of your own essay that I quoted ALSO states that "knowledge is accumulated by doing; together with logical thinking" i.e. doing AND consideration of what is being done.
    Ergo: it's exactly what I wrote and NOT what you have previously been claiming.
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  70. #170  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Are you saying you need scientific proof that doing, or work, has nothing to do with accumulating knowledge?

    You have comprehension problems, don't you?
    I have clearly stated my objections to the simplistic claim, more than once in previous posts.
    I have not mentioned, nor requested, "scientific proof".
    If you're going to continue this disingenuity (or dishonesty, I'm not sure which it is) then you're just going to dig your hole deeper.

    Logical thinking might have a place somewhere, but certainly not here.

    Exactly: you persist in making claims.
    You persist in failing to support them.
    You persist in diverting (usually by sliding toward insults).
    You have presented NOTHING BUT claims.

    I have spelled out, more than once (post #132, post #140, post #142, post #144... etc etc etc) that merely "doing" is insufficient.
    It MUST be coupled with something else: repetition (as I mentioned), concentration (as I mentioned), consideration (as I mentioned).
    The portion of your own essay that I quoted ALSO states that "knowledge is accumulated by doing; together with logical thinking" i.e. doing AND consideration of what is being done.
    Ergo: it's exactly what I wrote and NOT what you have previously been claiming.
    have spelled out, more than once (post #132, post #140, post #142, post #144... etc etc etc) that merely "doing" is insufficient.
    And again I am making the claim that doing even once, or work even once, will give knowledge, not total knowledge, but knowledge. If you do not do, or work, what you have accumulated is information. Doing does not have to be repetitive to accumulate knowledge. Am I clear enough for you? I am sorry I do not intend to insult you, I have no reason to, if you find some of what I say insulting I will do my best to refrain from it, please point it out as you are doing now.
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  71. #171  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    And again I am making the claim that doing even once, or work even once, will give knowledge, not total knowledge, but knowledge.

    And again, you have failed to do anything other than simply claim.
    (And you're also contradicting yourself - per the quote from your essay).

    If you do not do, or work, what you have accumulated is information.
    The difference between "knowledge" and "information" would be... what?
    (Other than your own circular "definitions" given above).
    information is "Knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance"

    Doing does not have to be repetitive to accumulate knowledge. Am I clear enough for you? I am sorry I do not intend to insult you, I have no reason to, if you find some of what I say insulting I will do my best to refrain from it, please point it out as you are doing now.
    You are clear.
    But - AS I HAVE REPEATEDLY POINTED OUT - all you're doing is claiming: not explaining.
    Unsupported claims are worthless.
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  72. #172  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    And again I am making the claim that doing even once, or work even once, will give knowledge, not total knowledge, but knowledge.

    And again, you have failed to do anything other than simply claim.
    (And you're also contradicting yourself - per the quote from your essay).

    If you do not do, or work, what you have accumulated is information.
    The difference between "knowledge" and "information" would be... what?
    (Other than your own circular "definitions" given above).
    information is "Knowledge communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance"

    Doing does not have to be repetitive to accumulate knowledge. Am I clear enough for you? I am sorry I do not intend to insult you, I have no reason to, if you find some of what I say insulting I will do my best to refrain from it, please point it out as you are doing now.

    You are clear.
    But - AS I HAVE REPEATEDLY POINTED OUT - all you're doing is claiming: not explaining.
    Unsupported claims are worthless.
    I have repeatedly explained that information does not equate with personal experience or knowledge. With personal experience you have to accomplish some work from self. If someone tells you a thing you have no way of knowing if it’s true unless you have done it yourself. If you have seen something done, you do not have personal experience. If you want to bake a cake you have to bake one to get the knowledge of baking. There is nothing to replace self-knowledge.
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  73. #173  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I have repeatedly explained that information does not equate with personal experience or knowledge.

    Claimed, not explained (nor supported).

    With personal experience you have to accomplish some work from self. If someone tells you a thing you have no way of knowing if it’s true unless you have done it yourself. If you have seen something done, you do not have personal experience. If you want to bake a cake you have to bake one to get the knowledge of baking. There is nothing to replace self-knowledge.
    This is your personal definition.
    NOT the generally accepted one.

    And once again you have ignored half of my post.

    Since you can't reply to questions/ points raised, can't support your arguments - except with personal definitions that contradict accepted ones - and (in a different thread) choose to hand-wave rather than make coherent replies I'm done with you.
    I'll continue to point out your fallacies and ridiculous claims but won't bother actually interacting with you until (or unless) you decide to be more intellectually honest in your posts.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I have repeatedly explained that information does not equate with personal experience or knowledge.

    Claimed, not explained (nor supported).

    With personal experience you have to accomplish some work from self. If someone tells you a thing you have no way of knowing if it’s true unless you have done it yourself. If you have seen something done, you do not have personal experience. If you want to bake a cake you have to bake one to get the knowledge of baking. There is nothing to replace self-knowledge.

    This is your personal definition.
    NOT the generally accepted one.

    And once again you have ignored half of my post.

    Since you can't reply to questions/ points raised, can't support your arguments - except with personal definitions that contradict accepted ones - and (in a different thread) choose to hand-wave rather than make coherent replies I'm done with you.
    I'll continue to point out your fallacies and ridiculous claims but won't bother actually interacting with you until (or unless) you decide to be more intellectually honest in your posts.
    I can only match up to you if I accept what you call the accepted norms. Well DYD, I am not about to accept something that does not make sense to me, so I will have to say by for now. For what it’s worth DYD, thanks for what I got from the tedious discussions.
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  75. #175  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    I can only match up to you if I accept what you call the accepted norms.

    In other words you want to propagate bullshit.
    If you want use non-accepted "norms" or definitions then have to justify them.
    This you have consistently and spectacularly failed to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    To be superior? To be greatness itself? To be an achieved individual? To raise civilizations? To love one another? To commune in complexities? To find truth?
    To take in knowledge? To live? To be aware of our existence? To work to meaningfully spend our short lives before death? etc etc.

    What is it? What does it mean to a human being and what does it take to be one?

    Is there even a definite answer or is this a subjective/relativistic answer?
    there is a definite answer. one, you must be a being. second, you must be human. only one way to determine who is human, DNA.
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  77. #177  
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    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    To be superior? To be greatness itself? To be an achieved individual? To raise civilizations? To love one another? To commune in complexities? To find truth?
    To take in knowledge? To live? To be aware of our existence? To work to meaningfully spend our short lives before death? etc etc.

    What is it? What does it mean to a human being and what does it take to be one?

    Is there even a definite answer or is this a subjective/relativistic answer?
    there is a definite answer. one, you must be a being. second, you must be human. only one way to determine who is human, DNA.
    From the lions POV. Looks like a human, smells like a human, taste like a human.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chero View Post

    there is a definite answer. one, you must be a being. second, you must be human. only one way to determine who is human, DNA.
    From the lions POV. Looks like a human, smells like a human, taste like a human.

    yum!
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    depends. I don't believe in a universal human nature.
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  80. #180  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    depends. I don't believe in a universal human nature.
    Please explain what you mean, I do not know what post you are referring to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    depends. I don't believe in a universal human nature.
    Human nature is like a spectrum of behaviors that arrange themselves over a bell curve with extremes at both ends. Each human is also a mixture of behaviors and while many of us might be capable of extremes if the conditions present themselves. Most of us prefer keeping our behavior in a range somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and we will gladly take the high road and look good to others most of the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    depends. I don't believe in a universal human nature.
    Human nature is like a spectrum of behaviors that arrange themselves over a bell curve with extremes at both ends. Each human is also a mixture of behaviors and while many of us might be capable of extremes if the conditions present themselves. Most of us prefer keeping our behavior in a range somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and we will gladly take the high road and look good to others most of the time.
    Most of us prefer keeping our behavior in a range somewhere in the middle of the spectrum
    Human spectrum, animal spectrum, or what?
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  83. #183  
    Forum Freshman The Huntsman's Avatar
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    To have the best time you can without hurting anyone.
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  84. #184  
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Huntsman View Post
    To have the best time you can without hurting anyone.
    Welcome to the forum. Funny you should say what you did with that avatar of yours.
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    What does it take? Complex molecular arrangements... 13+ Billion years... Some other things (there are theories)...

    What does it mean? It means the universe is a pretty interesting place, well, I seem to think so, anyway.
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    To treat everyone with the same respect you wish to have. To admire every profession that does something positive for humans and nature regardless of what it is. To give joy and human to everyone whenever possible. To love, deeply.

    To be the little ginger shit head that I am.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    depends. I don't believe in a universal human nature.
    Human nature is like a spectrum of behaviors that arrange themselves over a bell curve with extremes at both ends. Each human is also a mixture of behaviors and while many of us might be capable of extremes if the conditions present themselves. Most of us prefer keeping our behavior in a range somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and we will gladly take the high road and look good to others most of the time.
    Yes. And?
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  88. #188  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    depends. I don't believe in a universal human nature.
    Human nature is like a spectrum of behaviors that arrange themselves over a bell curve with extremes at both ends. Each human is also a mixture of behaviors and while many of us might be capable of extremes if the conditions present themselves. Most of us prefer keeping our behavior in a range somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and we will gladly take the high road and look good to others most of the time.
    Yes. And?
    And what? If you want more comments I could use more to go on. I will say regardless what anybody might believe about being human and how they should act. The only requirement to being human is to have human parents.
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  89. #189  
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    I have a side question, if there were a biological weapon, a mutagenic virus, that infected and replaced most of the dna of human victims with Pig DNA, transforming the victims into pigs that would keep their memories but loose the ability to speak for biomechanical reasons (but could communicate with signs etc). Should these former humans and new pigs, be bought and sold to farmers and processed into tasty bacon?
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I have a side question, if there were a biological weapon, a mutagenic virus, that infected and replaced most of the dna of human victims with Pig DNA, transforming the victims into pigs that would keep their memories but loose the ability to speak for biomechanical reasons (but could communicate with signs etc). Should these former humans and new pigs, be bought and sold to farmers and processed into tasty bacon?
    My goodness Icewendigo, where did this come from? Is this a new video on YouTube?
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  91. #191  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Should these former humans and new pigs, be bought and sold to farmers and processed into tasty bacon?
    Could, should, would.

    They could, they should not, they probably would not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    depends. I don't believe in a universal human nature.
    Human nature is like a spectrum of behaviors that arrange themselves over a bell curve with extremes at both ends. Each human is also a mixture of behaviors and while many of us might be capable of extremes if the conditions present themselves. Most of us prefer keeping our behavior in a range somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and we will gladly take the high road and look good to others most of the time.
    I said that human exists. and?


    Yes. And?
    And what? If you want more comments I could use more to go on. I will say regardless what anybody might believe about being human and how they should act. The only requirement to being human is to have human parents.
    So all traits whether morphological or psychological are based are in a bell curve. it's fairly to say that most fear pain and/or death, or value loved ones and one doesn't need basic psychological training to comprehend that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I have a side question, if there were a biological weapon, a mutagenic virus, that infected and replaced most of the dna of human victims with Pig DNA, transforming the victims into pigs that would keep their memories but loose the ability to speak for biomechanical reasons (but could communicate with signs etc). Should these former humans and new pigs, be bought and sold to farmers and processed into tasty bacon?
    Yes. I'd like to paid handsomely to write the marketing plan for homo baconus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    To treat everyone with the same respect you wish to have. To admire every profession that does something positive for humans and nature regardless of what it is. To give joy and human to everyone whenever possible. To love, deeply.

    To be the little ginger shit head that I am.
    I can never just past these kind of quotes because these are absolutely goodies in the basket of knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    depends. I don't believe in a universal human nature.
    Human nature is like a spectrum of behaviors that arrange themselves over a bell curve with extremes at both ends. Each human is also a mixture of behaviors and while many of us might be capable of extremes if the conditions present themselves. Most of us prefer keeping our behavior in a range somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and we will gladly take the high road and look good to others most of the time.
    Most of us prefer keeping our behavior in a range somewhere in the middle of the spectrum
    Human spectrum, animal spectrum, or what?
    Human nature doesn't exist.
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  96. #196  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Stargate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sarnamluvu View Post
    depends. I don't believe in a universal human nature.
    Human nature is like a spectrum of behaviors that arrange themselves over a bell curve with extremes at both ends. Each human is also a mixture of behaviors and while many of us might be capable of extremes if the conditions present themselves. Most of us prefer keeping our behavior in a range somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and we will gladly take the high road and look good to others most of the time.
    Most of us prefer keeping our behavior in a range somewhere in the middle of the spectrum
    Human spectrum, animal spectrum, or what?
    Human nature doesn't exist.
    I am trying very hard to visualize what you mean with human nature does not exist, but I am not getting it, can you explain? please?
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  97. #197  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I have a side question, if there were a biological weapon, a mutagenic virus, that infected and replaced most of the dna of human victims with Pig DNA, transforming the victims into pigs that would keep their memories but loose the ability to speak for biomechanical reasons (but could communicate with signs etc). Should these former humans and new pigs, be bought and sold to farmers and processed into tasty bacon?
    That's one of those things that if labeled with that info nobody would buy.
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  98. #198  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    I have a side question, if there were a biological weapon, a mutagenic virus, that infected and replaced most of the dna of human victims with Pig DNA, transforming the victims into pigs that would keep their memories but loose the ability to speak for biomechanical reasons (but could communicate with signs etc). Should these former humans and new pigs, be bought and sold to farmers and processed into tasty bacon?
    I hope so, because life without ham and bacon would suck.
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