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Thread: The point of reality is?

  1. #1 The point of reality is? 
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    I can't grasp reality, the simple meaning of it and the reasons we choose to be here. We can create our own justified truths in a separate world that is observable and which is objective/persistent outside human presence (vid games, simulations, ant farms, etc)

    Yet many choose this and in all its complexity, life is quite an open ended story with no real definition but the ones we create, which is the same as the stated examples above.
    Where reality is limited, those man made observable worlds can be used to fill in the gaps, or reinforce coherent theories but we still choose to implant those ideas here in reality.

    So really what is the point of it all, of reality?. It is not like everyday laws and rules in reality can't be countered (given that every subject that proves of an objective reality is based on the coherent theory) or that we also try to wrong them every moment or defy them.

    Thank you if you can help me understand this, sorry for sounding so confused because it is really hard to phrase this and place forward this idea.


    Last edited by jacate; August 25th, 2013 at 01:10 AM. Reason: mini additions
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  3. #2  
    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    I have days when I wonder, too. As you say, we give our lives purpose and meaning. If we view our lives as instruments to help others, it can make an otherwise blah existence seem worthwhile. You go beyond existing and tolerating life...to living and embracing it. I suggest a book that you might enjoy called "Man's Search for Meaning," by Viktor Frankl. Frankl was imprisoned in the concentration camps during WWII. In his book, he speaks about how the will to live comes from a person's reason to live, even if he applies the reason himself. He said that what often drew the line between someone living and dying in the camps wasn't physical strength and stamina, but rather a longing to survive. A longing to see life as more than a bleak set of circumstances. His challenge to his readers becomes looking at our lives and trying to find our own meaning. Think you'd enjoy it.


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  4. #3  
    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    In rereading your post, not sure if I've answered your question, really. Not sure if by reality you mean why are things the way they are, from a scientific perspective. I replied from a philosophical slant.
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  5. #4  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    In rereading your post, not sure if I've answered your question, really. Not sure if by reality you mean why are things the way they are, from a scientific perspective. I replied from a philosophical slant.
    Any slant is fine, but as a whole what is a true purpose of reality if you know what i mean. It is here without meaning so why do we choose to conform to it?
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  6. #5  
    Forum Professor scoobydoo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    I can't grasp reality, the simple meaning of it and the reasons we choose to be here.
    I did not get to choose.

    I was evicted from my mother's womb after failing to pay the rent after nine or so months, and also because I refused to perform "services" that might get me an extension on paying the rent back at a later time.
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  7. #6  
    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    In rereading your post, not sure if I've answered your question, really. Not sure if by reality you mean why are things the way they are, from a scientific perspective. I replied from a philosophical slant.
    Any slant is fine, but as a whole what is a true purpose of reality if you know what i mean. It is here without meaning so why do we choose to conform to it?
    Conform to who's reality?
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  8. #7  
    ...matter and pixie dust wegs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    I can't grasp reality, the simple meaning of it and the reasons we choose to be here.
    I did not get to choose. I was evicted from my mother's womb after failing to pay the rent after nine or so months, and also because I refused to perform "services" that might get me an extension on paying the rent back at a later time.
    We need to beam you back up.
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  9. #8  
    Forum Masters Degree LuciDreaming's Avatar
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    Are you talking about social, implicit laws and conformity? (Sorry just finishing a social psych module so my head is bent that way at the minute....). But what reality are you talking about?

    Some realities we have no control over like planetary orbits or earthquakes but other realities are the ones we choose to make for ourselves. According to my reality if I don't work all day I wont support myself but in truth I could learn to live in other ways and live by different rules and their reality.

    I have to admit its a bit early for me for life, the universe and everything questions..... :-)
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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  10. #9  
    Theatre Whore babe's Avatar
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    Reality is marching to my own drummer....been doing that all my life....MY reality is MINE! I own it! It is my REAL ESTATE.
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  11. #10  
    Anti-Crank AlexG's Avatar
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    Reality is, and there's no 'caring' to it. You make your own meaning for life. Or you don't. But the universe just is.
    babe and Cogito Ergo Sum like this.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  12. #11  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    Are you talking about social, implicit laws and conformity? (Sorry just finishing a social psych module so my head is bent that way at the minute....). But what reality are you talking about?

    Some realities we have no control over like planetary orbits or earthquakes but other realities are the ones we choose to make for ourselves. According to my reality if I don't work all day I wont support myself but in truth I could learn to live in other ways and live by different rules and their reality.

    I have to admit its a bit early for me for life, the universe and everything questions..... :-)
    Not about other people's reality just reality, being in the place, space, time, dimension, universe we are in now. Why do we still choose to conform to it(meaning be here, adhere to its rules and laws, not to mention many who are shunned trying to escape it). If you chose not to adhere to it, you would oppose it and by doing so is escaping the reality which is like living your life in a game and what not, or just simply committing suicide.

    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    I can't grasp reality, the simple meaning of it and the reasons we choose to be here.
    I did not get to choose.

    I was evicted from my mother's womb after failing to pay the rent after nine or so months, and also because I refused to perform "services" that might get me an extension on paying the rent back at a later time.
    If you didn't conform to it you would not be here now or you would be somewhere else, stuck in a game refusing to come out or you would be dead because to choose to conform to reality is like coming back to reality, living in reality whether objective or relative. Why do you still choose it and what is the point of reality, the whole of it. If it is your own property like babe says than that is that i guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by wegs View Post
    In rereading your post, not sure if I've answered your question, really. Not sure if by reality you mean why are things the way they are, from a scientific perspective. I replied from a philosophical slant.
    Any slant is fine, but as a whole what is a true purpose of reality if you know what i mean. It is here without meaning so why do we choose to conform to it?
    Conform to who's reality?
    Just reality as itself, not anyone's reality but a reality that is the real thing, the place called reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    Reality is, and there's no 'caring' to it. You make your own meaning for life. Or you don't. But the universe just is.
    Curious isn't it, we ask the purpose of our lives, what of our future, the purpose of subject, understanding, curiosity, but the purpose of reality is one without reason. If the universe just came to be without any purpose why do all living organisms seek to survive in it and not perish? Unless obviously this universe, reality, has a purpose that is more elusive than we think. (which i do hope it is true)
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  13. #12  
    Forum Professor scoobydoo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    If you didn't conform to it you would not be here now or you would be somewhere else, stuck in a game refusing to come out or you would be dead because to choose to conform to reality is like coming back to reality, living in reality whether objective or relative.
    To conform implies choice. I did not choose to be conceived.

    I suppose to put it in the right light; did your parents seek your permission or counsel before conception? I think not.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Why do you still choose it and what is the point of reality, the whole of it. If it is your own property like babe says than that is that i guess.
    By "it", did you mean continuing existence? If not, you will have to rephrase your question so that I may understand what it is you are asking.
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  14. #13  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    If you didn't conform to it you would not be here now or you would be somewhere else, stuck in a game refusing to come out or you would be dead because to choose to conform to reality is like coming back to reality, living in reality whether objective or relative.
    To conform implies choice. I did not choose to be conceived.

    I suppose to put it in the right light; did your parents seek your permission or counsel before conception? I think not.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Why do you still choose it and what is the point of reality, the whole of it. If it is your own property like babe says than that is that i guess.
    By "it", did you mean continuing existence? If not, you will have to rephrase your question so that I may understand what it is you are asking.
    Yes, but it is not saying to continue existing but to continue to be here in this reality, the universe. Not off somewhere in another reality or perhaps being dead. So why do you choose to be here, conform to live its rules and laws when you can be in some other man made world which defies all this?
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    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
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    The point of reality is to.... *drumroll*... nothing. Reality is arbitrary, more arbitrary than a dilettante's inserted sesquipedalian rhetoric when attempting to appear smartzers than they really are. The point of existence? Meh, in the grand scheme it is perhaps utterly meaningless. In short: Matter collocates, simple life forms emerge, life evolves, life endures extinction, life begins to understand the reality that spawned it, life colonizes other worlds, life becomes extinct, and the Universe simply carries on.
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  16. #15  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Why do we still choose to conform to it(meaning be here, adhere to its rules and laws, not to mention many who are shunned trying to escape it). If you chose not to adhere to it, you would oppose it and by doing so is escaping the reality which is like living your life in a game and what not, or just simply committing suicide.
    Because, so far as we can tell, it's either this or... absolutely nothing.
    Once you chose suicide all other options are irrevocably closed off.
    If you decide NOT to it's still on the table at any later time.
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  17. #16  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    The point of reality is to.... *drumroll*... nothing. Reality is arbitrary, more arbitrary than a dilettante's inserted sesquipedalian rhetoric when attempting to appear smartzers than they really are. The point of existence? Meh, in the grand scheme it is perhaps utterly meaningless. In short: Matter collocates, simple life forms emerge, life evolves, life endures extinction, life begins to understand the reality that spawned it, life colonizes other worlds, life becomes extinct, and the Universe simply carries on.
    But as straight forward as it sounds, why does life still try to flourish in an environment that it knows it will die some day? Unless there is a meaning to it all. Also why are you in a dog house o.O?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Why do we still choose to conform to it(meaning be here, adhere to its rules and laws, not to mention many who are shunned trying to escape it). If you chose not to adhere to it, you would oppose it and by doing so is escaping the reality which is like living your life in a game and what not, or just simply committing suicide.
    Because, so far as we can tell, it's either this or... absolutely nothing.
    Once you chose suicide all other options are irrevocably closed off.
    If you decide NOT to it's still on the table at any later time.
    You think we will ever find out the purpose of reality?
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  18. #17  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    You think we will ever find out the purpose of reality?
    I think assuming that there is (or should be) a purpose is a cause of depression.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  19. #18  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    You think we will ever find out the purpose of reality?
    I think assuming that there is (or should be) a purpose is a cause of depression.
    Indeed there is a cause of depression to all this XD
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  20. #19  
    Anti-Crank AlexG's Avatar
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    If you actually take a look at it, the ultimate point of life appears to be death. After all, EVERYTHING that lives, dies. Everything that ever has lived, has died. Death is always the last thing that happens in life.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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  21. #20  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    If you actually take a look at it, the ultimate point of life appears to be death. After all, EVERYTHING that lives, dies. Everything that ever has lived, has died. Death is always the last thing that happens in life.
    Well what if death isn't the last thing and that we are still on the tutorial level? Death is a penalty as player accounts have a life span of an average 80 years before being deleted. Also how about the immortal jellyfish, did it live or die?
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  22. #21  
    Forum Professor scoobydoo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Yes, but it is not saying to continue existing but to continue to be here in this reality, the universe.
    You will have to enlighten me as to the difference between the two because of your use of the word "but". Continual existence is to continue being here; in this reality/universe as you have put it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Not off somewhere in another reality...
    My timer was damaged beyond repair on my last reentry. (It's a Sliders reference in case you didn't catch it. )

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    ...or perhaps being dead.
    By way of both nature and nurture, I have been adequately equipped and trained to evade death so far. My biological programming is in full effect to ensure that the entity that is I refrain from suicidal tendencies. That and I have yet to see the incentives of non-existence. Needless to say, continual existence has it's entertainment value.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    So why do you choose to be here, conform to live its rules and laws when you can be in some other man made world which defies all this?
    Are you suggesting that I take psychotropic hallucinogens? Or are you referring to something else entirely?
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  23. #22  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Yes, but it is not saying to continue existing but to continue to be here in this reality, the universe.
    You will have to enlighten me as to the difference between the two because of your use of the word "but". Continual existence is to continue being here; in this reality/universe as you have put it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Not off somewhere in another reality...
    My timer was damaged beyond repair on my last reentry. (It's a Sliders reference in case you didn't catch it. )

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    ...or perhaps being dead.
    By way of both nature and nurture, I have been adequately equipped and trained to evade death so far. My biological programming is in full effect to ensure that the entity that is I refrain from suicidal tendencies. That and I have yet to see the incentives of non-existence. Needless to say, continual existence has it's entertainment value.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    So why do you choose to be here, conform to live its rules and laws when you can be in some other man made world which defies all this?
    Are you suggesting that I take psychotropic hallucinogens? Or are you referring to something else entirely?
    You can exist even in reality by simply just choosing to "live" your life in a game and not par take in any worldly activities but to fulfill your needs(in an idealistic situation that is). Therefore existence isn't the main question but the choice of your mind of staying in reality when you could in some far-offland walking unicorns but your body is still here. Or another extreme is the mind and body leaving reality. However the bigger actual question isn't focused on these smaller questions, the bigger question is, what is the point of reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post

    Well what if death isn't the last thing and that we are still on the tutorial level? Death is a penalty as player accounts have a life span of an average 80 years before being deleted.
    I think someone plays too many computer games
    Like they say, life is like a game =P
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  24. #23  
    Forum Professor scoobydoo1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    You can exist even in reality by simply just choosing to "live" your life in a game and not par take in any worldly activities but to fulfill your needs(in an idealistic situation that is). Therefore existence isn't the main question but the choice of your mind of staying in reality when you could in some far-offland walking unicorns but your body is still here. Or another extreme is the mind and body leaving reality.
    To be honest, I'm more accustomed to and have expected a lot denser philosophical-like material than this.

    Seriously? Assuming in the absence of suicidal actions on their part, even a delusional person living in a fantasy world of his/her own concoction requires the intake of sustenance and to purge waste at some point; and that takes place in the mundane world we refer to as reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    ... what is the point of reality?
    Short answer; to be tangibly real.
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  25. #24  
    Lover of Ideas jacate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    You can exist even in reality by simply just choosing to "live" your life in a game and not par take in any worldly activities but to fulfill your needs(in an idealistic situation that is). Therefore existence isn't the main question but the choice of your mind of staying in reality when you could in some far-offland walking unicorns but your body is still here. Or another extreme is the mind and body leaving reality.
    To be honest, I'm more accustomed to and have expected a lot denser philosophical-like material than this.

    Seriously? Assuming in the absence of suicidal actions on their part, even a delusional person living in a fantasy world of his/her own concoction requires the intake of sustenance and to purge waste at some point; and that takes place in the mundane world we refer to as reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    ... what is the point of reality?
    Short answer; to be tangibly real.
    Didn't i mention the point of an idealistic situation. I am not able to give you my full thoughts as it can't come out right, that reality is like a moral point in our lives many choose to never abandon and we choose to say that it is to be real when we are not able to perceive what is truly real due to having no certainty that the ways of knowing is in anyway universal and to mention that even an objective reality is seen as an assumption, reality is nothing more than a box of coherent theories which makes it as fake as it is real.

    Given in an artificial man-made world we can establish the existence of an objective reality through the term called persistent world models for games and simulations. This is a concept whereby the world evolves even without the players presence thereby creating what seems to be closer to reality. It is indeed questionable that reality has a purpose to fulfill, that we aren't just humans being placed in this dimension to fulfill our curious thirst and our need for survival and that in the larger part of the scheme we can go on as ignorant as we are wise, affirming that no purpose exist because we choose to ignore such a purpose should exist or to be foolishly wise who is an overthinker of simple situations.

    However to be real is in itself a paradox that can't be placed in reality when we can't affirm anything in our observable scope is at the least bit real. So reality is like something we say is real but it can be said isn't universally real, so what really is the universal real ? Also what is the point of being even universally real?
    Last edited by jacate; August 26th, 2013 at 11:50 AM. Reason: Added final point
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Didn't i mention the point of an idealistic situation.
    I have to admit that I did skimmed over that portion of your post, and have missed the "idealistic situation" part. I shall be more careful in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    that reality is like a moral point in our lives many choose to never abandon and we choose to say that it is to be real when we are not able to perceive what is truly real due to having no certainty that the ways of knowing is in anyway universal and to mention that even an objective reality is seen as an assumption, reality is nothing more than a box of coherent theories which makes it as fake as it is real.
    The idea of choosing fantasy over reality (non-fantasy) or vise versa comes down to significance. Significance as in self-assigned meaning and purpose in either (fantasy or reality). More or less significance can be broken down into simple numeric values.

    When it comes down to choices in decision making processes, value theory come into action. If the mind prefers one reality (fantasy) over another (reality; for instance), it is usually because one has more value over the other. I wouldn't really call it a "moral" point since it does not pertain to morality, but I would agree in calling it a grounding point if you have no objections.

    We call it real for the simple fact that it directly impacts our existence in tangible ways. A fork to the eye will most certainly impair our ocular senses. The fantasy delving mind may not be so impaired by such losses, but a blade plunged into the heart (in reality) will most certainly remove our fantasy self from the fantasy world, or at the very least; no evidence have been presented that the mind concocted fantasy persists after mortality.

    An additional note on what is fantasy and what is real, can be distinguished from the effects it has. Consuming a fantasy concocted meal or beverage would not appeal *appease the sensation of hunger and thirst that ties the mind to the body in the real world. The need for satisfaction of that nature; to sustain the fantasy isn't appeased, therefore it isn't satisfying (so to speak). Which also plays a part in overall significance, dribbling down to simple values if the choice of choosing fantasy over reality is a conscious one. One that isn't a result of mental disorders wherein choice isn't present.
    Last edited by scoobydoo1; August 26th, 2013 at 01:45 PM. Reason: * typo correction.
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    The only purpose to reality is what we make it. We are driven towards certain things via genetics, but that isn't purpose, just biological drives. This is like asking "what is a star's purpose?" It has none, it just exists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Didn't i mention the point of an idealistic situation.
    I have to admit that I did skimmed over that portion of your post, and have missed the "idealistic situation" part. I shall be more careful in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    that reality is like a moral point in our lives many choose to never abandon and we choose to say that it is to be real when we are not able to perceive what is truly real due to having no certainty that the ways of knowing is in anyway universal and to mention that even an objective reality is seen as an assumption, reality is nothing more than a box of coherent theories which makes it as fake as it is real.
    The idea of choosing fantasy over reality (non-fantasy) or vise versa comes down to significance. Significance as in self-assigned meaning and purpose in either (fantasy or reality). More or less significance can be broken down into simple numeric values.

    When it comes down to choices in decision making processes, value theory come into action. If the mind prefers one reality (fantasy) over another (reality; for instance), it is usually because one has more value over the other. I wouldn't really call it a "moral" point since it does not pertain to morality, but I would agree in calling it a grounding point if you have no objections.

    We call it real for the simple fact that it directly impacts our existence in tangible ways. A fork to the eye will most certainly impair our ocular senses. The fantasy delving mind may not be so impaired by such losses, but a blade plunged into the heart (in reality) will most certainly remove our fantasy self from the fantasy world, or at the very least; no evidence have been presented that the mind concocted fantasy persists after mortality.

    An additional note on what is fantasy and what is real, can be distinguished from the effects it has. Consuming a fantasy concocted meal or beverage would not appeal the sensation of hunger and thirst that ties the mind to the body in the real world. The need for satisfaction of that nature; to sustain the fantasy isn't appeased, therefore it isn't satisfying (so to speak). Which also plays a part in overall significance, dribbling down to simple values if the choice of choosing fantasy over reality is a conscious one. One that isn't a result of mental disorders wherein choice isn't present.
    So where do the holodecks from ST:TNG come into effect? They make your fantasies real. In some ways, video games (and other "fantasy" things) make things in them real too. Repetition, certain types of music, product placement, subliminal messaging, etc. can have an effect on your real life.
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    Well gee. I totally missed the mark with this thread. 0_o
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    So where do the holodecks from ST:TNG come into effect?
    That depends on the awareness of the participants; whether they are aware of the fantasy setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    They make your fantasies real.
    They can, of sorts. Being placed in a holodeck fantasy where an ensign becomes an admiral for instance does not persist past the holodeck arch. The instance awareness sets in, what is real and what isn't usually depends on whether the mind can reconcile between the two. Of course, this is all speaking from a third person point of view (from a narrative perspective). The participant(s) whilst still in such a fantasy and being unaware that they are in one likely not be able to tell the difference (fantasy vs reality). But without a specific scenario in mind, this is all that we can push this line of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    In some ways, video games (and other "fantasy" things) make things in them real too.
    Note the colored keywords.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    Repetition, certain types of music, product placement, subliminal messaging, etc. can have an effect on your real life.
    If there is a point, I'm having trouble discerning it.
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    I am so confused!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    So where do the holodecks from ST:TNG come into effect?
    That depends on the awareness of the participants; whether they are aware of the fantasy setting.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    They make your fantasies real.
    They can, of sorts. Being placed in a holodeck fantasy where an ensign becomes an admiral for instance does not persist past the holodeck arch. The instance awareness sets in, what is real and what isn't usually depends on whether the mind can reconcile between the two. Of course, this is all speaking from a third person point of view (from a narrative perspective). The participant(s) whilst still in such a fantasy and being unaware that they are in one likely not be able to tell the difference (fantasy vs reality). But without a specific scenario in mind, this is all that we can push this line of thought.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    In some ways, video games (and other "fantasy" things) make things in them real too.
    Note the colored keywords.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    Repetition, certain types of music, product placement, subliminal messaging, etc. can have an effect on your real life.
    If there is a point, I'm having trouble discerning it.
    The point is that the fantasy is real, to a degree. In a video game it is real in the form of information stored in the computer. In your head something similar happens. Both can have a very real influence on your, and are therefore "real" to you. They influence you even after they are over. That's the point of fantasy, to feel like something occurred when it never did in the real world. It's effects, however, are real.

    TO quote a movie:
    "What is real? How do you define REAL? If you're talking about what you can see and touch, then real is nothing more than electrical signals interpreted by your brain."
    -Morpheus, "Matrix"

    Before you can answer questions about reality, you must define "real." I've been posting under the definition that real is what exists even outside of your perception of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    The point is that the fantasy is real, to a degree.
    Before I address the rest of your post, I will require clarification on whether the point you are making is in response to the following exchange, or is it something else entirely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    Repetition, certain types of music, product placement, subliminal messaging, etc. can have an effect on your real life.
    If there is a point, I'm having trouble discerning it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    The point is that the fantasy is real, to a degree.
    Before I address the rest of your post, I will require clarification on whether the point you are making is in response to the following exchange, or is it something else entirely different.

    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    Repetition, certain types of music, product placement, subliminal messaging, etc. can have an effect on your real life.
    If there is a point, I'm having trouble discerning it.
    yes
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    I will require clarification on whether the point you are making is in response to the following exchange, or is it something else entirely different.
    yes
    Is that a Zen answer?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    Repetition, certain types of music, product placement, subliminal messaging, etc. can have an effect on your real life.
    If the contention here is abstract non-physical stimulus can elicit a reaction in a receiver, you wouldn't hear any disagreements from me. Another form of that would be why an untruthful/inaccurate statement, such as hearsay and lies can also have an effect on people and their lives.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    That's the point of fantasy, to feel like something occurred when it never did in the real world. It's effects, however, are real.
    The effects on the person can be real, but the fantasy itself or achievements in games aren't in the same sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    "What is real? How do you define REAL? If you're talking about what you can see and touch, then real is nothing more than electrical signals interpreted by your brain."
    I'd enjoyed that movie, but disliked how superficial the "philosophical" tidbits were to accommodate the storyline.

    In the context of the Matrix series, that phrase relates to how the people who were "plugged" into the matrix machines interprets the simulations as their shared reality, while their real bodies reside in the "real world" and their bodily functions taken cared of by the machines. What is meant by "nothing more than electrical signals interpreted by your brain" is far too simplistic to be of much use in a mildly serious philosophical discussion.

    Microorganisms and plantlife have no such brains to receive electrical signals like those that do have one, but they interact with their environment all the same. That is only possible if they detect or perceive their environment as "real" too, but through other means.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    Before you can answer questions about reality, you must define "real."
    Had the OP taken this route instead of asking for the thread question that we were given; we may perhaps had an opportunity to go into something interesting. But as it turns out...

    Quote Originally Posted by TheUnknowable View Post
    I've been posting under the definition that real is what exists even outside of your perception of it.
    If you have no objections in rephrasing it to "real is can be what exists even outside of your perception of it"; we may have an agreement.
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    Signs and symbols have points, but reality doesn't have a point, reality is what signs and symbols point to. Does this mean reality isn't significant or important? Yes, it does. To be significant is to signify, which is to be a sign and to point to something, and to be important is to import or bring in meaning from something else, but reality is all there is, so there's nothing for it to import or point to. Does this mean reality isn't good? Absolutely not. Some of the best things don't point to anything at all, such as play, music, dance, watching the sunset, stargazing, mountain climbing, ect. and so reality is like those things, it's playful. Try to relax and let go, enjoy the music, and join the dance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Signs and symbols have points, but reality doesn't have a point, reality is what signs and symbols point to. Does this mean reality isn't significant or important? Yes, it does. To be significant is to signify, which is to be a sign and to point to something, and to be important is to import or bring in meaning from something else, but reality is all there is, so there's nothing for it to import or point to. Does this mean reality isn't good? Absolutely not. Some of the best things don't point to anything at all, such as play, music, dance, watching the sunset, stargazing, mountain climbing, ect. and so reality is like those things, it's playful. Try to relax and let go, enjoy the music, and join the dance.
    I beg to differ. Many pieces of both music and theatre do have a point. Listen to the story line and music music from "South Pacific",

    Cited.

    carefully taught.wmv - YouTube
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Signs and symbols have points, but reality doesn't have a point, reality is what signs and symbols point to. Does this mean reality isn't significant or important? Yes, it does. To be significant is to signify, which is to be a sign and to point to something, and to be important is to import or bring in meaning from something else, but reality is all there is, so there's nothing for it to import or point to. Does this mean reality isn't good? Absolutely not. Some of the best things don't point to anything at all, such as play, music, dance, watching the sunset, stargazing, mountain climbing, ect. and so reality is like those things, it's playful. Try to relax and let go, enjoy the music, and join the dance.
    I beg to differ. Many pieces of both music and theatre do have a point. Listen to the story line and music music from "South Pacific",

    Cited.

    carefully taught.wmv - YouTube
    When I said play, I didn't mean theater, I meant play as in what children do. And yes, lots of music has a meaning, but I would argue that some of the best music doesn't have any meaning at all, and is played and listened to for its own sake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3217H8JppI
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    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Signs and symbols have points, but reality doesn't have a point, reality is what signs and symbols point to. Does this mean reality isn't significant or important? Yes, it does. To be significant is to signify, which is to be a sign and to point to something, and to be important is to import or bring in meaning from something else, but reality is all there is, so there's nothing for it to import or point to. Does this mean reality isn't good? Absolutely not. Some of the best things don't point to anything at all, such as play, music, dance, watching the sunset, stargazing, mountain climbing, ect. and so reality is like those things, it's playful. Try to relax and let go, enjoy the music, and join the dance.
    I beg to differ. Many pieces of both music and theatre do have a point. Listen to the story line and music music from "South Pacific",

    Cited.

    carefully taught.wmv - YouTube
    When I said play, I didn't mean theater, I meant play as in what children do. And yes, lots of music has a meaning, but I would argue that some of the best music doesn't have any meaning at all, and is played and listened to for its own sake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3217H8JppI
    And being a theatre arts person and a vocalist, I would absolutely disagree. Every MUSICIAN I know, who plays any song, finds meaning in the piece.


    As a vocalist, EVERY song I sing has a meaning.....as does every piece of music, whether it be silly, funny, romantic, haunting, .....etc, etc, etc...

    We shall differ on this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Signs and symbols have points, but reality doesn't have a point, reality is what signs and symbols point to. Does this mean reality isn't significant or important? Yes, it does. To be significant is to signify, which is to be a sign and to point to something, and to be important is to import or bring in meaning from something else, but reality is all there is, so there's nothing for it to import or point to. Does this mean reality isn't good? Absolutely not. Some of the best things don't point to anything at all, such as play, music, dance, watching the sunset, stargazing, mountain climbing, ect. and so reality is like those things, it's playful. Try to relax and let go, enjoy the music, and join the dance.
    I beg to differ. Many pieces of both music and theatre do have a point. Listen to the story line and music music from "South Pacific",

    Cited.

    carefully taught.wmv - YouTube
    When I said play, I didn't mean theater, I meant play as in what children do. And yes, lots of music has a meaning, but I would argue that some of the best music doesn't have any meaning at all, and is played and listened to for its own sake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3217H8JppI
    And being a theatre arts person and a vocalist, I would absolutely disagree. Every MUSICIAN I know, who plays any song, finds meaning in the piece.


    As a vocalist, EVERY song I sing has a meaning.....as does every piece of music, whether it be silly, funny, romantic, haunting, .....etc, etc, etc...

    We shall differ on this.
    Well what's the meaning of Beethoven's 9th symphony? Just because a piece of music makes you feel something doesn't mean that this feeling you're having is the meaning, different people can get different feelings from the same music.

    Have you ever listened to Dylan? Back in the 60's there were entire groups dedicated to deciphering the meaning of his songs, but he said himself that many of his songs had no meaning, and that he was just playing with words.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ5XtabITh8

    John Lennon said the same thing about a lot of his own music:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrQ2NBX6c0w

    Sitting on a cornflake waiting for the van to come
    Corporation teeshirt, stupid bloody Tuesday
    Man you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long
    I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
    I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob

    What's the meaning of that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Signs and symbols have points, but reality doesn't have a point, reality is what signs and symbols point to. Does this mean reality isn't significant or important? Yes, it does. To be significant is to signify, which is to be a sign and to point to something, and to be important is to import or bring in meaning from something else, but reality is all there is, so there's nothing for it to import or point to. Does this mean reality isn't good? Absolutely not. Some of the best things don't point to anything at all, such as play, music, dance, watching the sunset, stargazing, mountain climbing, ect. and so reality is like those things, it's playful. Try to relax and let go, enjoy the music, and join the dance.
    I beg to differ. Many pieces of both music and theatre do have a point. Listen to the story line and music music from "South Pacific",

    Cited.

    carefully taught.wmv - YouTube
    When I said play, I didn't mean theater, I meant play as in what children do. And yes, lots of music has a meaning, but I would argue that some of the best music doesn't have any meaning at all, and is played and listened to for its own sake.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3217H8JppI
    And being a theatre arts person and a vocalist, I would absolutely disagree. Every MUSICIAN I know, who plays any song, finds meaning in the piece.


    As a vocalist, EVERY song I sing has a meaning.....as does every piece of music, whether it be silly, funny, romantic, haunting, .....etc, etc, etc...

    We shall differ on this.
    Well what's the meaning of Beethoven's 9th symphony? Just because a piece of music makes you feel something doesn't mean that this feeling you're having is the meaning, different people can get different feelings from the same music.

    Have you ever listened to Dylan? Back in the 60's there were entire groups dedicated to deciphering the meaning of his songs, but he said himself that many of his songs had no meaning, and that he was just playing with words.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ5XtabITh8

    John Lennon said the same thing about a lot of his own music:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrQ2NBX6c0w

    Sitting on a cornflake waiting for the van to come
    Corporation teeshirt, stupid bloody Tuesday
    Man you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long
    I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
    I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob

    What's the meaning of that?
    Meant something at the time they wrote it. Stoned or whatever...had a meaning at that moment.

    As I said, we won't agree.
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    To say something must have meaning is really a way of degrading it and putting it down, because what you're really saying is that it's not good enough on it's own, and that there must be something else that it's pointing to. The best things can stand on their own, they don't need to point to anything beyond themselves.
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    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    To say something must have meaning is really a way of degrading it and putting it down, because what you're really saying is that it's not good enough on it's own, and that there must be something else that it's pointing to. The best things can stand on their own, they don't need to point to anything beyond themselves.
    They still have meaning, either to the person who wrote it, or the person who reads, hears, watches or sees it.

    Your point is moot.

    End of discussion.
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    oops, forgot, SINGS IT!

    Mea Culpa
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Sitting on a cornflake waiting for the van to come
    Corporation teeshirt, stupid bloody Tuesday
    Man you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long
    I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
    I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob

    What's the meaning of that?
    Drugs are bad m'kay.
    Silly Professor Demon it is a SONG by the BEATLES

    The Beatles - I Am The Walrus - YouTube
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that John Lennon was probably off his tits on LSD and God knows what else when he wrote it!

    Hence "Drugs are bad m'kay".

    Drugs Are Bad, Mmkay - YouTube
    Not disagreeing with that, however I am saying it DID have meaning WHEN HE WROTE IT!

    At that TIME....

    to us..it also had meaning, though probably not where he was coming from!

    Did you read the previous posts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Yes, I can sort of see what N0THING is getting at but I don't agree. I'm closer to your opinion on the subject.

    I just made the easy joke about Lennon's lyrics
    and for that, I'm going to spank you like a bad boy....

    BRAT!
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    Quote Originally Posted by PhDemon View Post
    Yes, I can sort of see what N0THING is getting at but I don't agree. I'm closer to your opinion on the subject.

    I just made the easy joke about Lennon's lyrics
    YOU BRAT!! I am trying to be all serious and you throw me a curve ball..

    definitely being spanked like a bad little boy
    PhDemon likes this.
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    GRRR then he likes it...need new form of punishment for PhDemon....LOLLIPOP Parade for you buddy
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    Lennon was probably tripping when he wrote that song, he used to take LSD everyday until he started having bad trips and stopped. I don't think Beethoven was tripping, though, when he wrote his 9th symphony, and there is no meaning to that.

    My point, before we got side tracked discussing the meaning of music, was that reality doesn't have a point, and that it's similar to things we do for play, in which there is no point to the activity other than the activity itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by N0THING View Post
    Lennon was probably tripping when he wrote that song, he used to take LSD everyday until he started having bad trips and stopped. I don't think Beethoven was tripping, though, when he wrote his 9th symphony, and there is no meaning to that.

    My point, before we got side tracked discussing the meaning of music, was that reality doesn't have a point, and that it's similar to things we do for play, in which there is no point to the activity other than the activity itself.
    Am I the only one seeing the irony in that your name is the answer to the OP?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    -snip-

    Ok i am going to try again to explain clearer if possible, if you are not able to understand then i am sorry but i guess my vocabulary is limited to provide a thorough explanation.

    What is our point existing in this current reality. Not the fundamental question of what is the purpose of life, but the purpose of just one of us being in reality.

    Being real is a desired aspect of humans, the certainty that comes with said reality is probably the main reason why we choose to want to have this realness. So relating back to the question why choose this certainty or to exist within this reality. Even if a fake or artificial one can grant us the same set of certainty. This would be a reference to realities within simulations, even though you may argue that it can't generate reality in the exact same conditions and circumstances, it would only be a valid view unless we assume time doesn't go and that moore's law doesn't apply.

    So why pick this reality, this form of certainty which we assume is true when we say it is all falsifiable. What is the purpose of being certain about everything, having truths, finding meaning, having a sense of reality since none of this are even truly justifiable to 100% accuracy or truth, we can say that living in any form of reality even death is a certainity beyond doubt.

    I am sorry to all those that probably is frustrated or confused because i am really trying my best to phrase this question around.
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    There is no point to reality?

    What?
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    Ok...so their is not point to death? Birth?

    Guess not if you are devoid of emotion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Ok...so their is not point to death? Birth?

    Guess not if you are devoid of emotion.
    From a detached point of view, they are meaningless.

    Also the point of reality, about the point certainty and truths. Do they have a point to be chosen over a truth that can be artificially made when pretty much all truths are explained by man-made language?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    So why pick this reality
    In what sense do we "pick" reality? Reality is what it is. The best we can do is try and make sense of it, and give it meaning by celebrating life and death. But I am not aware that we choose reality, and even less so that we choose one possible reality over another.

    I'm afraid your question makes no sense to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Ok...so their is not point to death? Birth?

    Guess not if you are devoid of emotion.
    From a detached point of view, they are meaningless.

    Also the point of reality, about the point certainty and truths. Do they have a point to be chosen over a truth that can be artificially made when pretty much all truths are explained by man-made language?
    Seeing I have lost too many people, too young, and too soon, and to too many different things....I think you need to be in my ignore bin

    Your lack of human empathy does not equate with who I am nor, does it equate with anything I would possibly learn from an empty vessel.

    I love learning and even if I joke around with the folks in here, I do learn from them.

    I can learn nothing from you.

    you are empty

    and thus you shall remain on my screen
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Ok...so their is not point to death? Birth?

    Guess not if you are devoid of emotion.
    From a detached point of view, they are meaningless.

    Also the point of reality, about the point certainty and truths. Do they have a point to be chosen over a truth that can be artificially made when pretty much all truths are explained by man-made language?
    Seeing I have lost too many people, too young, and too soon, and to too many different things....I think you need to be in my ignore bin

    Your lack of human empathy does not equate with who I am nor, does it equate with anything I would possibly learn from an empty vessel.

    I love learning and even if I joke around with the folks in here, I do learn from them.

    I can learn nothing from you.

    you are empty

    and thus you shall remain on my screen
    A sound an empty vessel makes isn't one without reason and without knowledge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    So why pick this reality
    In what sense do we "pick" reality? Reality is what it is. The best we can do is try and make sense of it, and give it meaning by celebrating life and death. But I am not aware that we choose reality, and even less so that we choose one possible reality over another.

    I'm afraid your question makes no sense to me.
    You are choosing this reality, this form of certainty and truth that exist within reality. If you are not choosing it, even if you are being place here without reason, why no migrate to one where truths are still man-made and real into the context of that reality. Like if in reality now had i die, i would be no more and that is a fact within what our language, certainity and justified truth beliefs. However if you die in another world like a game, you still have a chance to re-live your life again. Both are truths within each system that are real and tangible within their systems but both these truths are inter-changeable. So overall with this distinction why choose to continue living on this reality when you can still have a reality that is on another terms of truth that is certain in that world.

    These truths are not just limited to life and death, but emotions and sensations, thoughts and perceived ideas and even our fundamental laws that can be applied in simulations that simulate say flying a plane. These can be re-created, the experience and all which are true within the context of that world and thus it is real in that world. I understand it is hard to grasp what i am trying to say as i am even struggling to explain it. Just think around the idea of losing a grip on reality to live in a virtual reality when actually reality is equally virtual as most of what happens around us is what we perceive.

    Also back to the point if you were to say that one can't feel satisfied as though they had a meal when they actually didn't (according to scoobydoo) that is when we assume time does not apply and future technologies can trick our minds into feeling such sensations (which is already possible but that which is costly).
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    You are choosing this reality, this form of certainty and truth that exist within reality. If you are not choosing it, even if you are being place here without reason, why no migrate to one where truths are still man-made and real into the context of that reality.
    You appear (*) to be suggesting that there is an alternative reality we could "choose". You make no sense at all.

    (*) it is hard to tell from your semi-random streams of words
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    You are choosing this reality, this form of certainty and truth that exist within reality. If you are not choosing it, even if you are being place here without reason, why no migrate to one where truths are still man-made and real into the context of that reality.
    You appear (*) to be suggesting that there is an alternative reality we could "choose". You make no sense at all.

    (*) it is hard to tell from your semi-random streams of words
    It is not semi random. I am trying my best to get this idea through so i am very sorry because it i find it really difficult to describe.

    Yes we can choose to live in an alternate reality. Similar to stories of people living their lives in games and forgetting that they once belonged to this reality. It does make sense, not to mention even as we speak scientist and a russian tycoon plan to digitally store our brains into computers and have human immortality by 2045. Although a goal for the distant future, we are also allowed to do this now(but not to such a similar extent).

    How it relates is that if we can have our brains exist within a digital realm and in reality, couldn't we pick to live in one or another in the future? Even if we don't talk about future perhaps, but choosing to let go of reality to be in another world and where haptic feed-back can be replicated to simulate sensations that we are accustomed to this world. That in another world we are living the experience that we have in them is a truth and certainty that only exist within that world.

    Please tell me if you are still in doubt.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Yes we can choose to live in an alternate reality.
    Really?
    Evidence please.

    not to mention even as we speak scientist and a russian tycoon plan to digitally store our brains into computers and have human immortality by 2045.
    I doubt they'll manage it by that date.
    I doubt (based on nothing except some inkling of our profound lack of knowledge of what consciousness is) that it will be possible for the next 100 years or so.

    we are also allowed to do this now(but not to such a similar extent).
    Where? How?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Yes we can choose to live in an alternate reality.
    Really?
    Evidence please.

    not to mention even as we speak scientist and a russian tycoon plan to digitally store our brains into computers and have human immortality by 2045.
    I doubt they'll manage it by that date.
    I doubt (based on nothing except some inkling of our profound lack of knowledge of what consciousness is) that it will be possible for the next 100 years or so.

    we are also allowed to do this now(but not to such a similar extent).
    Where? How?
    When i say we can or to a similar extent, it is like letting go of reality and just living your life by like playing a game or simulation forever under idealistic setting. In those realities that truth is the entities alike are entitled to live forever. That is a truth within that world and it is undeniable.

    Have you heard stories of parents playing games till their child dies? It is along that line, but i am trying to not focus on those negative "if i neglect reality consequences are harsh" aspect instead i am focusing on the certainty and truths behind each worlds and systems.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    When i say we can or to a similar extent, it is like letting go of reality and just living your life by like playing a game or simulation forever under idealistic setting.
    So what you meant was "we can't".
    Got it.

    In those realities that truth is the entities alike are entitled to live forever.
    Entitled? By whom/ what?

    That is a truth within that world and it is undeniable.
    Um, "undeniable"? No.

    Have you heard stories of parents playing games till their child dies?
    No.
    But even if I had I'm damned sure that reality intruded at times.

    It is along that line, but i am trying to not focus on those negative "if i neglect reality consequences are harsh" aspect instead i am focusing on the certainty and truths behind each worlds and systems.
    But, since one of those "worlds" is not real - to the extent that it doesn't exist, then there can't be any "certainties and truths" behind it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    When i say we can or to a similar extent, it is like letting go of reality and just living your life by like playing a game or simulation forever under idealistic setting.
    So what you meant was "we can't".
    Got it.

    In those realities that truth is the entities alike are entitled to live forever.
    Entitled? By whom/ what?

    That is a truth within that world and it is undeniable.
    Um, "undeniable"? No.

    Have you heard stories of parents playing games till their child dies?
    No.
    But even if I had I'm damned sure that reality intruded at times.

    It is along that line, but i am trying to not focus on those negative "if i neglect reality consequences are harsh" aspect instead i am focusing on the certainty and truths behind each worlds and systems.
    But, since one of those "worlds" is not real - to the extent that it doesn't exist, then there can't be any "certainties and truths" behind it.
    Entities in games don't have a life span or even simulations. They can live as long as that game allows it and that the game still exist which is thus an undeniable truth within that system.

    Those worlds are man-made, similar to have to present our truths and certainty. Overall that system would hold truths and logic even if "fake" that are based on our ideas, overall boiling down to there are existing truths behind them. It is like saying an object when it hits a wall, it will bounce back. That is a truth within that world even if it was fake and such other programmed occurrences. Furthermore the reliability of that truth or certainty has near 100% accuracy and thus is justifiable within that system/reality.

    However what you say at the end, it is like a piece of the question that i am trying to phrase. In the view that anyone can acknowledge that any reality is fake and given how much emphasize is put that what we observe is purely perception and not truly what it is, none of it is actually 100% real because there is no way to prove it to someone who lacks one of the senses to perceive reality. Like that of describing the color of red to a blind man. So to a blind man the concept of color is fake or absurd and so to him that part of reality is non-existent. However to put this into the context of having all senses but choosing to perceive the different realities as one's truth rather than viewing this one reality as the true one and only place. Like how if we are immersed in a movie or an activity we still know that we are rooted to reality and have to get back, so why choose to get back to reality. Thank you for helping to phrase part of the question!
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Yes we can choose to live in an alternate reality.
    If you think that, then you are the only one who can explain why you have chosen this one. As far as I know, no sane person would believe such a thing.

    Please tell me if you are still in doubt.
    You make no sense at all. No doubt.
    PhDemon likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Entities in games don't have a life span or even simulations. They can live as long as that game allows it and that the game still exist which is thus an undeniable truth within that system.
    "Entities" in games aren't alive.
    That's step one.
    Step two is that as soon as you exit the game they're either gone or frozen.

    Those worlds are man-made, similar to have to present our truths and certainty. Overall that system would hold truths and logic even if "fake" that are based on our ideas, overall boiling down to there are existing truths behind them. It is like saying an object when it hits a wall, it will bounce back. That is a truth within that world even if it was fake and such other programmed occurrences. Furthermore the reliability of that truth or certainty has near 100% accuracy and thus is justifiable within that system/reality.
    Um, "truth even if fake"?

    In the view that anyone can acknowledge that any reality is fake
    For someone to acknowledge something it would have to be the truth.
    Which you have so far failed to show.

    none of it is actually 100% real because there is no way to prove it to someone who lacks one of the senses to perceive reality. Like that of describing the color of red to a blind man. So to a blind man the concept of color is fake or absurd and so to him that part of reality is non-existent.
    Which doesn't, in any way, mean that red isn't red.
    You're getting confused here.

    However to put this into the context of having all senses but choosing to perceive the different realities as one's truth rather than viewing this one reality as the true one and only place.
    Again, you're assuming something that's not been shown to be the case: that of different realities.

    Like how if we are immersed in a movie or an activity we still know that we are rooted to reality and have to get back, so why choose to get back to reality.
    We don't "get back" to reality. Because we never left it.
    All that happened was that, for a time, we ignored some aspects of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Yes we can choose to live in an alternate reality.
    If you think that, then you are the only one who can explain why you have chosen this one. As far as I know, no sane person would believe such a thing.

    Please tell me if you are still in doubt.
    You make no sense at all. No doubt.
    "In the view that anyone can acknowledge that any reality is fake and given how much emphasize is put that what we observe is purely perception and not truly what it is, none of it is actually 100% real because there is no way to prove it to someone who lacks one of the senses to perceive reality. Like that of describing the color of red to a blind man. So to a blind man the concept of color is fake or absurd and so to him that part of reality is non-existent. However to put this into the context of having all senses but choosing to perceive the different realities as one's truth rather than viewing this one reality as the true one and only place. Like how if we are immersed in a movie or an activity we still know that we are rooted to reality and have to get back, so why choose to get back to reality. "

    That is something i wanted to phrase. Also to say that i am the only one to be able to answer it is kinda countering the purpose of me asking this question in the first place wouldn't it. Furthermore i haven't traversed that path either so i wanted to try to situate this idea of forgoing reality and still knowing when the come back, why choose to come back, and back to what i asked originally why choose reality.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    Entities in games don't have a life span or even simulations. They can live as long as that game allows it and that the game still exist which is thus an undeniable truth within that system.
    "Entities" in games aren't alive.
    That's step one.
    Step two is that as soon as you exit the game they're either gone or frozen.

    Those worlds are man-made, similar to have to present our truths and certainty. Overall that system would hold truths and logic even if "fake" that are based on our ideas, overall boiling down to there are existing truths behind them. It is like saying an object when it hits a wall, it will bounce back. That is a truth within that world even if it was fake and such other programmed occurrences. Furthermore the reliability of that truth or certainty has near 100% accuracy and thus is justifiable within that system/reality.
    Um, "truth even if fake"?

    In the view that anyone can acknowledge that any reality is fake
    For someone to acknowledge something it would have to be the truth.
    Which you have so far failed to show.

    none of it is actually 100% real because there is no way to prove it to someone who lacks one of the senses to perceive reality. Like that of describing the color of red to a blind man. So to a blind man the concept of color is fake or absurd and so to him that part of reality is non-existent.
    Which doesn't, in any way, mean that red isn't red.
    You're getting confused here.

    However to put this into the context of having all senses but choosing to perceive the different realities as one's truth rather than viewing this one reality as the true one and only place.
    Again, you're assuming something that's not been shown to be the case: that of different realities.

    Like how if we are immersed in a movie or an activity we still know that we are rooted to reality and have to get back, so why choose to get back to reality.
    We don't "get back" to reality. Because we never left it.
    All that happened was that, for a time, we ignored some aspects of it.
    To those entities they were alive within their game/world. Even then we can talk about persistent world games (upcoming next generation gaming) which is about worlds that never stop even after the player has left it. Examples are games like Division, Destiny, DayZ and etc.

    Sorry for my lack of punctuations and partly on missing words too.

    " Those worlds are man-made, similar to have to present our truths and certainty. Overall that system would hold truths and logic even if (the world was) "fake" are based on our ideas, overall boiling down to there are existing truths behind them. It is like saying an object when it hits a wall, it will bounce back. That is a truth within that world, even if it(the world) was fake, and such other programmed occurrences. Furthermore the reliability of that truth or certainty has near 100% accuracy and thus is justifiable within that system/reality."

    If i were to acknowledge that a dog can uproot a tree and row a boat is fake, that is like saying i accept the truth that a dog doing that action is fake. Similar to saying that anyone can admit that the truth is, any reality is fake.

    I am not confusing this concept, i am saying that to a person who say lacks all their senses, reality as a whole would not exist for that person. That reality is only grasped within our ability to perceive it and what it actually is we wouldn't know. If you can describe to me in plain words what is the color red so that i can visualize it, your probably came to a road block and the most you can tell the person with the most detail as to what red is, " it is a specific electromagnetic frequency within the visible region of the electromagnetic frequency." and still to that blind person, they won't know how real is the red.

    Yes i am assuming there are different realities but only within the context that exist now, such as virtual reality and etc.

    Yes that is true, we ignored aspects of it. However i am not sure if you ever experienced being immersed in an activity for a near full day's worth (15 hours of continous gaming for me) and at times there is the urge to come back. Not to relieve any needs that the human body has to, but to be aware of reality even though i chose to ignore almost the whole day. It is like an emotion that is hard to explain and that even after so long, one can't choose to ignore it forever even if the needs are not met or how developed my vocabulary is. Speaking of which i am not sure if those people who die playing games the whole day still have this urge to get back.
    Last edited by jacate; September 1st, 2013 at 06:05 AM. Reason: Electromagnetic specturm words wrongly placed.
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    To those entities they were alive within their game/world.
    There seem to be some people who are unable to clearly distinguish things that exists outside their head with things they imagine.

    Those worlds are man-made, similar to have to present our truths and certainty.
    No similarity at all. Presumably you think that dreams are just as real your life when you are awake?

    i am saying that to a person who say lacks all their senses, reality as a whole would not exist for that person.
    Nonsense. I have heard people who have been blind from birth talk about how they choose which colours to wear. One of my favourite musicians is completely deaf.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jacate View Post
    To those entities they were alive within their game/world.
    There seem to be some people who are unable to clearly distinguish things that exists outside their head with things they imagine.

    Those worlds are man-made, similar to have to present our truths and certainty.
    No similarity at all. Presumably you think that dreams are just as real your life when you are awake?

    i am saying that to a person who say lacks all their senses, reality as a whole would not exist for that person.
    Nonsense. I have heard people who have been blind from birth talk about how they choose which colours to wear. One of my favourite musicians is completely deaf.
    I am able to distinguish that present in the laws that that world was created in, those objects abide those laws and are said to be alive. From what i can gather is that you are suggesting that all points and frames of view must be derived from the central idea that reality is the center of everything and that what doesn't exist in the laws that govern reality does not exist. However that is to say that a computer generated world is non-existent when paradoxically it does exist within the space and time we are in now as well but instead in terms of codes and data of 1 and 0s. My point of view on how to place each world or system as the main point of reference is that we treat those worlds as a separate point and within those worlds those laws that govern them are the absolute truth within them, thus when we say for example a monster is alive within that world, that monster would be alive based on those laws that the world is written in and it cannot be proven wrong unless you say that that world should not be placed as a point of reference. Thus the different pages and main points of conflict that we are on as we both refuse to see the others view through.

    Also when i wake from my dreams i would be stunned for awhile because they were so real. In the end of that i would focus my attention back to reality and say to myself ignore those dreams, they are all false, what they meant and what not. However that is to say that we assume all dreams are fake and that none can be possibly real and that you can prove such a circumstance.

    You can tell me that a blind person who can talk from birth, now describe to me who is a person with sight, what the color red is when you see it. Because to that person all they can do is say the name of colors but not actually see it so all they can do is assume such a reality exist. However within their sense of perception, that concept wouldn't be in any form tangible to them and thus it exist but they would not be able to perceive these aspects within their observable reality. By saying no to this you are saying that in their observable reality that they can perceive the color red which is also nonsense. Even if they could choose it doesn't mean they would know what it is. Also the musician who was deaf, assuming Beethoven unless you care to specify, is death from the age of 26 and before that he could perceive music. Thus music was within his observable reality previously but after he became deaf, he couldn't observe it but only deduce what it could be.

    So to him music become a reality that he could only think for and not perceive after he become deaf. However you are also ignoring the point i raised that if a person lacks all their 6 senses, not just one but all 6, reality to them would be non-existent.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    You're just posting nonsense.
    Off to the ignore list with you.
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    I think he may be talking about Robert Anton Wilson's reality tunnels.

    Reality tunnel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    You're just posting nonsense.
    Off to the ignore list with you.
    *L* did that after reading first ten.....
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