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Thread: Are we all racial hypocrite?!

  1. #1 Are we all racial hypocrite?! 
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    Something baffles me for years, but never bother to ask around.

    Why are there Asian, African, Latino Community, if there should be racial equality?

    While all the politician, and phony were bashing about racism, why are people publicly support something that basically says "hey come and have fun every Saturday, make a lot of friends, but you have to be Asian/Black/ Latino to join the circus."

    Maybe those racially based communities started help each other fighting racism, but now it seems they wanna stick together to make each other feel better or superior. I mean what is the point of having all the asians, or blacks, latinos form a group each month, and occasionally give awards to each other. Who are they kidding..

    Some folks say, we need it not because of the race, but because of the culture..Black people's been reside in America for over 200 years, what culture are we talking about? A culture developed on top of discrimination to begin with? Or are you assuming people across Africa follow the same culture. Why is it called Asian Community, not Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese Community? Nigerian, Caribbean, Community?

    So when Elvis said that he was inspired by African Music at that time, it made it even more confusing. if we are equal in all aspect, who says if you stick with black people, you get good music.. Why is it when somebody done something good, and if he/she ain't white, we have to psycho-analyze down to every piece of crap of the guy. And all too often, you never get away with the race.

    The 1.3 billon Chinese didn't invent the paper, the country Iraq didn't invent light bulb, the Black in the entire world certainly didn't come up with rock and roll all together.... So when I see Jeremy Lin's Asian fan were cheering with a Taiwanese flag, I turn the TV off.

    Only certain individual did, or by and large a group of people did. BUT precisely in a murky situation like this, we attribute such thing to their affiliation, e.g race, nationality, which casts a false misconception. I'm saying whom invented paper, light bulbs, or inspired Elvis, have nothing to do what race they are. On the other hand, Are all white people KKK, red neck, or serial killers? then, why the hell do you blame an entire racial group for? You hear this on the news: most serial killers are white male, most terrorists are middle eastern. it makes me very very upset.

    We create such racial stereotypical perceptions, and now young people growing up, are making decision based on exactly that..

    Asians think they are really born smarter, hence a distorted motivation to make them study even harder, setting out to become doctors, professors. Blacks thinks they are better at sports and music/ dance, so they spent more time playing on the court, than going to school.

    It has become such a disease. If you call yourself an American, then shut the **** up and be an american..

    Let's go back to the question,

    Of course, I'm waiting for somebody coming out, and call me a retard, juvenile, and I will agree with you, if you can gimme a reasonable explanation why do we need those Race-based community groups.


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    why do we need those Race-based community groups.
    Why do we need Irish/ Scots/ Greek dance societies?

    Why do we need women's groups?

    Why do we need groups of any kind?

    There are two reasons - which often act to reinforce each other. Any group which is marginalised, or even oppressed, within a larger society feels the need to find others who don't marginalise or insult or offend them. Any group of immigrants, or people new to a region, will find ways to make their new environment more amenable. Whether that's by establishing food supplies of ingredients that are not readily available or by setting up social/ religious/ language education/ cultural stuff organisations - doesn't really matter. What matters is the feeling of being more secure in an insecure situation.

    This comes together in different ways for different groups - everything from occupational groups (armed services, other employee groups), area and regional groups (neighbourhood improvement, Rotary, Probus, Lions and the like), national/ ethnic identity groups (Hibernian societies and hundreds of others), problem solving groups (alcohol / drug / gambling addict groups are the obvious ones here), religious groups, survivor groups (victims of crime, torture survivors and other PTSD sufferers, ex-prisoners, rape, domestic violence survivors) - dozens and dozens of them. All established by people who see a need to attract like-minded people or to support people who have particular needs.

    If you know neither the language nor the people or you have learned the hard way that people of your colour, religion, gender, language or other distinctive characteristic will be shunned or insulted or worse by many people - you will prefer to find other groups of people who are more likely to welcome you and allow you to feel safe. Even Australians have their own little enclave in London where it's easier to find Vegemite, Tim-Tams and footy jumpers for their teams back home - and they have neither language problems nor culture shock nor, especially, exclusion from employment or other social goods to cope with.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylertyler View Post
    Something baffles me for years, but never bother to ask around.

    Why are there Asian, African, Latino Community, if there should be racial equality?

    While all the politician, and phony were bashing about racism, why are people publicly support something that basically says "hey come and have fun every Saturday, make a lot of friends, but you have to be Asian/Black/ Latino to join the circus."

    Maybe those racially based communities started help each other fighting racism, but now it seems they wanna stick together to make each other feel better or superior. I mean what is the point of having all the asians, or blacks, latinos form a group each month, and occasionally give awards to each other. Who are they kidding..

    Some folks say, we need it not because of the race, but because of the culture..Black people's been reside in America for over 200 years, what culture are we talking about? A culture developed on top of discrimination to begin with? Or are you assuming people across Africa follow the same culture. Why is it called Asian Community, not Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese Community? Nigerian, Caribbean, Community?

    So when Elvis said that he was inspired by African Music at that time, it made it even more confusing. if we are equal in all aspect, who says if you stick with black people, you get good music.. Why is it when somebody done something good, and if he/she ain't white, we have to psycho-analyze down to every piece of crap of the guy. And all too often, you never get away with the race.

    The 1.3 billon Chinese didn't invent the paper, the country Iraq didn't invent light bulb, the Black in the entire world certainly didn't come up with rock and roll all together.... So when I see Jeremy Lin's Asian fan were cheering with a Taiwanese flag, I turn the TV off.

    Only certain individual did, or by and large a group of people did. BUT precisely in a murky situation like this, we attribute such thing to their affiliation, e.g race, nationality, which casts a false misconception. I'm saying whom invented paper, light bulbs, or inspired Elvis, have nothing to do what race they are. On the other hand, Are all white people KKK, red neck, or serial killers? then, why the hell do you blame an entire racial group for? You hear this on the news: most serial killers are white male, most terrorists are middle eastern. it makes me very very upset.

    We create such racial stereotypical perceptions, and now young people growing up, are making decision based on exactly that..

    Asians think they are really born smarter, hence a distorted motivation to make them study even harder, setting out to become doctors, professors. Blacks thinks they are better at sports and music/ dance, so they spent more time playing on the court, than going to school.

    It has become such a disease. If you call yourself an American, then shut the **** up and be an american..

    Let's go back to the question,

    Of course, I'm waiting for somebody coming out, and call me a retard, juvenile, and I will agree with you, if you can gimme a reasonable explanation why do we need those Race-based community groups.
    I understand where you are coming from and adelady is correct as well. Groups do form to protect and/or support those groups who are often marginalized. However, being a woman, I have attended many women's groups throughout my life. And unfortunately I was quite disgusted by them. My children are bi-racial so I used to take them to activities promoted by African-American communities but stopped doing that as well. I have also attended groups for Christians when I was Christian and groups Muslims when I was Muslim post 9-11.

    The reason I stopped is because I noticed a trend in these groups. While they insist they are there to support those who are marginalized the primary activity was giving speeches condemning those who they claim to be marginalized by. Women's groups were bashing men, African-American groups bashing white people, Christians bashing Muslims and Muslims bashing Christians. There was little speech discussing the acheivements of people from these groups or about programs to help the economically disadvantaged of these groups. It was mostly reinforcement of hate towards the groups that are perceived to do the marginalizing. They would talk about how group x holds particular attitudes against group y, but give no supporting evidence to justify the accusation. If they do attempt to provide evidence it is evidence that is presented on a biased skew ignoring facts of particular situations. For instance. Group x feels it is vilified by group y saying they are throwing us in prison for rape!! but they fail to acknowledge that group y throws members of its own group in prison for rape as well and that the people from group x that were imprisoned had staggering evidence against them. This is more obvious when they site particular cases of course. So while they declare themselves victims of racism, sexism, or religious intolerance, they ignore the acts of racism and intolerance that some members of their own group commit. They use the words like "always/never", "all/none". Their terms of absolution do not allow for members of any group to be treated as individuals and therefore they reinforce racism, sexism, and religious intolerance.

    I personally get pretty irritated when women say a man should never hit a woman, but the same women who say that, don't seem to think there is any harm in a woman hitting a man. Partners in a romantic relationship should never hit each other, period, but it happens and it shouldn't matter what gender the aggressor is, whoever did the hitting should go to jail but it is rare that a woman will be arrested for domestic violence, even if she admits to the cop that she was the aggressor. Even when witnesses tell the police that the man never hit back. I have personally witnessed police hauling a guy into jail when his girlfriend showed up at his place and attacked him in his own home. A home they did not share. We told the cops what we saw but he was still arrested and she was left unattended in his apartment and she ended up stealing many of his things. He never got his stuff back and has an arrest record for domestic violence, when it was a clear case of unprovoked assault.

    So while I agree with adelady's comments in regards to the intentions of these groups, I don't see the manner in which they conduct themselves conducive to fighting the thing they claim to be against. They seem to be nothing more than excuse makers for why members of these groups continue to struggle. They give the group members excuses to not examine their own behavior and instead blaming any condemnation a member of the group may receive on some superficial trait rather than examining that individual's actual behavior to see if action against them was justified.

    This is just my personal observation and opinion. I don't know how these groups conduct themselves in other countries but from where I am, and the one's I have experienced, and there were many, they all seemed to just project their own hatred on the groups they hated themselves.
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  5. #4  
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    Cant help much, not from the US, but its important to distinguish between "Race" and culture or sub culture.
    Last edited by icewendigo; April 26th, 2013 at 09:21 AM.
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  6. #5  
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    cutting through the rest
    think
    peer group identity

    people tend to want to find a peer group with whom they feel comfortable--------it could be, and often is, sex, race, language, ethnicity, education, job, hobby, etc. ... based

    black pride
    irish pride
    polish pride, etc...

    both my wives were part italian, and with my 1st., i went to a columbus day celebration, and got a button that read "I'm proud I'm Italian"
    -------and a friend of her's said------"but you're not Italian?" and i responded, "Yes, I know this, but everyone has to be proud of something"

    Even on these forums, we segregate into our various areas of interest and/or expertese
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Why wasn't this posted in Chinese.
    *(apparently Icewendigo edited his post a few times since I actually responded. I just noticed what I responded to wasn't in the quote from him because by the time I clicked "quote" to respond he had already edited it.)

    I know what you are getting at. But agreeing to a format that accomodates the needs of the most participants isn't exactly the same as creating a group that excludes or demonizes people because of some superficial biological trait that they cannot change.

    I would not be rejected from a Chinese speaking forum for not being Chinese, but I would for not speaking Chinese. At the present, I cannot speak Chinese but there is no reason that I cannot learn, other than it is inconvenient for me right now. But I could never become Chinese no matter how badly I wanted to.

    As adelady pointed out, there are enclaves in London that are supportive of Aussie culture. But I doubt these shops that offer Vegemite have any signs posted on their walls that say "All Brits are bastards that hate us Aussies!!" or "No Brits Allowed!!"

    I am no longer Muslim but I still occasionally shop at halal shops because I am fond of some of the Pakistani food that I grew accustomed to and the ingredients to make it are hard to find in mainstream American stores. I have never been denied business by a Muslim Halal grocer just because I was not Muslim.

    But many of the group type behavior I was referring to is stuff like offering Scholarships for excellence but only to people of a particular gender or color or faith. In America, if any charity group offered such things but limited to white males only, minority and women's groups would be in an uproar. So this means that minority and women's groups have access to all the charities that white males get, plus the favoritism offered them by their collective groups. And the only group allowed to exist today that supports supposed white interests is the KKK, but they are the epitome of what a segregationist group actually does. They "support" their members by reinforcing hatred towards outsiders. They are just more honest and open about their despicable intentions so while they are legally allowed to continue operations, within limits, they have to hide their faces for fear of social backlash. Personally, I think many of the members of other groups should feel equally ashamed of themselves. I am opposed to groups that "support" by way of demonizing non-members. I have refused scholarships from organizations who only offer scholarships to women. To me, accepting a helping hand because I am a woman is only reinforcing the idea that woman cannot make it in a so-called man's world without help. I believe I can and should achieve my goals and whatever status that comes with it by my own merit, and not because I was graded on a curve, or given handicap (handicap definition as used here:
    n.
    1. Sports & Games
    a. A race or contest in which contestants are given advantages or compensations to equalize the chances of winning.
    b. Such an advantage or penalty..).
    Last edited by seagypsy; April 26th, 2013 at 10:20 AM. Reason: explaining the change in the quote
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post

    Even on these forums, we segregate into our various areas of interest and/or expertese
    I agree, we do. While sometimes it simply keeps things organized, meaning I see a thread in the physics forum and I know that posting there will likely cause me to make a fool of myself. But it isn't because of something I cannot change. Interests are changeable. Most physical attributes are not. I want to be clear, that I don't think all ethnically based organizations are out to demonize outsiders. Many hold festivals like the ones you mentioned, simply to remember and celebrate a heritage, but while doing so they encourage outsiders to come and learn and enjoy the diversity. I have seen documentaries showcasing Kwanzaa activities that at no time brought up racism or oppression. They only expressed a love for the heritage of African-American Heritage. This doesn't mean that members from other groups claiming to celebrate the same thing never show up and talk trash about non-African Americans. But their actions were not the center of attention at the festival.

    This will happen anywhere. You always have a few in the crowd that just can't be happy unless everyone is fighting.

    But as I said, too many (in this instance defined as any number higher than 0) groups seem to focus more on disparaging outsiders than celebrating their own positive attributes and working to correct negative ones.

    edit: I always thought the idea of racial or ethnic pride to be odd. In my mind, pride is something created through accomplishment. So to have pride in one's gender or ethnicity is to implied that they did something special in the womb to make sure they came out that way.

    In America, I would never say I am proud to be white. Though I have said, I am lucky to be white. I didn't feel so lucky to be white while in Pakistan however. And certainly didn't feel lucky to be female.

    Maybe this is just a personal qwirk of mine. Does anyone else find it strange to take pride in something that came about by chance?
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    ... But as I said, too many (in this instance defined as any number higher than 0) groups seem to focus more on disparaging outsiders than celebrating their own positive attributes and working to correct negative ones. ... ?
    Many people suffer from insecurity and self loathing, and can only feel good about themselves if they have someone else to "look down upon"

    what a pity
    .......................
    and some are so full of self loathing, that they need to share it with the whole species:...
    "We poisoned the oceans. We destroyed the earth. We drove species to extinction. ... etc. etc...."
    .......
    reminds me of the old joke about Tonto and the Lone Ranger
    They are holed up in a box canyon fighting off 1000s of angry indians, and the lone ranger asked Tonto, "how many bullets do you have left?", "Two kemo sabe" and the ranger said, "I only have one---It looks like we're done for old friend."
    and Tonto replied:
    "What do you mean "we", white man?"
    Last edited by sculptor; April 26th, 2013 at 09:40 AM.
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    For as intelligent as we claim to be, we are still animals and we act like it.
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  11. #10  
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    Does anyone else find it strange to take pride in something that came about by chance?
    Yes to an extent, but then again I also find it strange that people feel pride for what someone else is doing because they happen to be from a place thats near (like someone eating chicken wings on a couch being exhaled that "his" bread-and-circuses sports team is winning), and that also happens to have zero benefit for humanity, "yeah, 'my' team came in 'first' at running around in a circle and doing absolutely nothing but running around in a circle, I am exhalted by my personal association with this achievement of being 1/10th of a second before the other team this one time on this specific day at running around in a circle (or pushing a ball around, etc), Yeah, Yeeewwah! "
    <-- (this green smile face was edited in, reason; just forgot about it, reason why I wanted it in the first place; because its more fun to have it, its part of the non verbal communication, thanks )
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  12. #11  
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Does anyone else find it strange to take pride in something that came about by chance?
    Yes to an extent, but then again I also find it strange that people feel pride for what someone else is doing because they happen to be from a place thats near (like someone eating chicken wings on a couch being exhaled that "his" bread-and-circuses sports team is winning), and that also happens to have zero benefit for humanity, "yeah, 'my' team came in 'first' at running around in a circle and doing absolutely nothing but running around in a circle, I am exhalted by my personal association with this achievement of being 1/10th of a second before the other team this one time on this specific day at running around in a circle (or pushing a ball around, etc), Yeah, Yeeewwah! "
    Agreed 100%.
    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    <-- (this green smile face was edited in, reason; just forgot about it, reason why I wanted it in the first place; because its more fun to have it, its part of the non verbal communication, thanks )
    I wanted to say something but I just don't know if there are words to express my feelings right now.
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    racial superiority is understandable but not racial monopolism
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    What?
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    there should be cross cultural(community) interaction leaving arrogance aside.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post

    But many of the group type behavior I was referring to is stuff like offering Scholarships for excellence but only to people of a particular gender or color or faith. In America, if any charity group offered such things but limited to white males only, minority and women's groups would be in an uproar. So this means that minority and women's groups have access to all the charities that white males get, plus the favoritism offered them by their collective groups. And the only group allowed to exist today that supports supposed white interests is the KKK, but they are the epitome of what a segregationist group actually does. They "support" their members by reinforcing hatred towards outsiders. They are just more honest and open about their despicable intentions so while they are legally allowed to continue operations, within limits, they have to hide their faces for fear of social backlash. Personally, I think many of the members of other groups should feel equally ashamed of themselves. I am opposed to groups that "support" by way of demonizing non-members. I have refused scholarships from organizations who only offer scholarships to women. To me, accepting a helping hand because I am a woman is only reinforcing the idea that woman cannot make it in a so-called man's world without help. I believe I can and should achieve my goals and whatever status that comes with it by my own merit, and not because I was graded on a curve, or given handicap (handicap definition as used here:
    n.
    1. Sports & Games
    a. A race or contest in which contestants are given advantages or compensations to equalize the chances of winning.
    b. Such an advantage or penalty..).
    Groups that are offered such scholarships are usually offered it because they are disadvantaged to begin with.

    And usually that disadvantage stems from lack of access to equal education, for example.

    Ideally, the need for such scholarships should not exist at all. However we do not exist in an ideal world and without such scholarships (as one example), many students would not have a chance at an education.

    I am curious, however, do you feel the same way about sports scholarships?
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post

    But many of the group type behavior I was referring to is stuff like offering Scholarships for excellence but only to people of a particular gender or color or faith. In America, if any charity group offered such things but limited to white males only, minority and women's groups would be in an uproar. So this means that minority and women's groups have access to all the charities that white males get, plus the favoritism offered them by their collective groups. And the only group allowed to exist today that supports supposed white interests is the KKK, but they are the epitome of what a segregationist group actually does. They "support" their members by reinforcing hatred towards outsiders. They are just more honest and open about their despicable intentions so while they are legally allowed to continue operations, within limits, they have to hide their faces for fear of social backlash. Personally, I think many of the members of other groups should feel equally ashamed of themselves. I am opposed to groups that "support" by way of demonizing non-members. I have refused scholarships from organizations who only offer scholarships to women. To me, accepting a helping hand because I am a woman is only reinforcing the idea that woman cannot make it in a so-called man's world without help. I believe I can and should achieve my goals and whatever status that comes with it by my own merit, and not because I was graded on a curve, or given handicap (handicap definition as used here:
    n.
    1. Sports & Games
    a. A race or contest in which contestants are given advantages or compensations to equalize the chances of winning.
    b. Such an advantage or penalty..).
    Groups that are offered such scholarships are usually offered it because they are disadvantaged to begin with.

    And usually that disadvantage stems from lack of access to equal education, for example.

    Ideally, the need for such scholarships should not exist at all. However we do not exist in an ideal world and without such scholarships (as one example), many students would not have a chance at an education.

    I am curious, however, do you feel the same way about sports scholarships?
    Then they should balance out the schools. instead of schools being better in rich neighborhoods than in poor they should equally divide the tax money to support those school throughout the state, not just the local zip code. I don't know how they do it where you are from but from what I understand that schools are supported by local property taxes. So if hte property surrounding a school is of low value there will be low taxes which means poor funding for that school. And the taxes for each school come from within the district of that school. if they collected the tax money and distributed it evenly across the state by number of students enrolled, then the schools would be evenly balanced. Over time the kids in the poor neighborhoods would have better educations and be able to get better jobs. And unless they flee those neighborhoods, the neighborhoods would improve. Some would undoubtedly flee but some would stay to be close to parents and grandparents. Not to mention that housing would be cheaper there for a long while even after they start getting better jobs.

    Hand outs don't teach people how to achieve, it just gets them addicted to the government tit. And they will be so accustomed to having their hand held that they will be a pain in the ass to deal with as an adult.

    As far as sports scholarships are concerned, I never really gave it much thought. I don't care about sports and I don't have any feelings for or against it. I know there is sometimes corruption in that kids on teams are sometimes graded less stringently because they are good players and bad grades will take them off the team. It used to happen in my high school. The teachers would coddle the good players because we were a small school and we barely had enough players to make a team, they didn't want the star players flunking off the team. Our best players were idiots but somehow managed to stay on the honor roll. Even when they slept in class and didn't turn in assignments. Not exactly teaching personal responsibility there.

    But I don't know how wide spread stuff like that happens. I've seen movies about it but that is hardly something to consider observable reality.

    but IDEALLY speaking. To be on a sports team in high school. You are supposed to maintain a certain grade point average. So the sports activity is like a reward for good grades as well as physical aptitude. If one manages to get a sports scholarship, one would have to have also maintained good grades all through high school. So assuming no coddling or corruption occurred. I would think the sports scholarships are more merit based because they imply scholastic ability as well as athletic ability. And they have to continue to maintain that scholastic ability all through college to continue receiving the scholarship. So yeah, unless there is some aspect of getting a sports scholarship that I am completely unaware of, I do see it as being earned on merit and it is not restricted to people of a particular color or gender. If it were restricted then I would have a problem with it.
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    Superiority is a natural feeling. So feeling of racial superiority is also natural.However racial monopolism is a fascist outcome. You have a right to feel yourself superior to other(s). But monopolism starts when you want the other person to agree to your superiority by force.










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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29081973 View Post
    Superiority is a natural feeling. So feeling of racial superiority is also natural.However racial monopolism is a fascist outcome. You have a right to feel yourself superior to other(s). But monopolism starts when you want the other person to agree to your superiority by force.


    h
    If an individual feel superior, that is not racial superiority. That is just being conceited or arrogant. And hating people based on race may be natural for some, but not all. It tends to be a learned behavior.
    Last edited by seagypsy; June 16th, 2013 at 03:11 PM. Reason: spelling
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post

    I understand where you are coming from and adelady is correct as well. Groups do form to protect and/or support those groups who are often marginalized. However, being a woman, I have attended many women's groups throughout my life. And unfortunately I was quite disgusted by them. My children are bi-racial so I used to take them to activities promoted by African-American communities but stopped doing that as well. I have also attended groups for Christians when I was Christian and groups Muslims when I was Muslim post 9-11.

    The reason I stopped is because I noticed a trend in these groups. While they insist they are there to support those who are marginalized the primary activity was giving speeches condemning those who they claim to be marginalized by. Women's groups were bashing men, African-American groups bashing white people, Christians bashing Muslims and Muslims bashing Christians. There was little speech discussing the acheivements of people from these groups or about programs to help the economically disadvantaged of these groups. It was mostly reinforcement of hate towards the groups that are perceived to do the marginalizing. They would talk about how group x holds particular attitudes against group y, but give no supporting evidence to justify the accusation. If they do attempt to provide evidence it is evidence that is presented on a biased skew ignoring facts of particular situations. For instance. Group x feels it is vilified by group y saying they are throwing us in prison for rape!! but they fail to acknowledge that group y throws members of its own group in prison for rape as well and that the people from group x that were imprisoned had staggering evidence against them. This is more obvious when they site particular cases of course. So while they declare themselves victims of racism, sexism, or religious intolerance, they ignore the acts of racism and intolerance that some members of their own group commit. They use the words like "always/never", "all/none". Their terms of absolution do not allow for members of any group to be treated as individuals and therefore they reinforce racism, sexism, and religious intolerance.
    Yeah. This is definitely a problem. There's pride in one's group/identity and then there's hatred to others.

    A lot of people who become white supremacists join while they're in prison. In there, they actually are a minority, and actually do need to group together in order to find safety. But of course, once they're back on the outside, the purpose of the group turns more toward aggressiveness and hatred.

    This same effect is probably the one that's driving this reverse racism garbage. Groups banded together to resist oppression and now that they're not really being oppressed anymore, the group has no more useful things to achieve. It doesn't want to disband, so it just plods onward.





    I personally get pretty irritated when women say a man should never hit a woman, but the same women who say that, don't seem to think there is any harm in a woman hitting a man. Partners in a romantic relationship should never hit each other, period, but it happens and it shouldn't matter what gender the aggressor is, whoever did the hitting should go to jail but it is rare that a woman will be arrested for domestic violence, even if she admits to the cop that she was the aggressor. Even when witnesses tell the police that the man never hit back. I have personally witnessed police hauling a guy into jail when his girlfriend showed up at his place and attacked him in his own home. A home they did not share. We told the cops what we saw but he was still arrested and she was left unattended in his apartment and she ended up stealing many of his things. He never got his stuff back and has an arrest record for domestic violence, when it was a clear case of unprovoked assault.
    Women may, yes, also hit men. However I've never met a woman who would instill fear in me by hitting me.

    If the man doesn't try to hit back, then he's obviously not in fear for his life or safety.

    The underlying problem of physical abuse is not that a physical act of violence is being perpetrated. It's that it's being used as a tool for control, to deny another person their basic liberty.

    I've never met a man who was so afraid of his wife or girlfriend hitting him that he felt he couldn't be free to live his life how he wanted. Certainly I've never met a man who was genuinely afraid his girlfriend might escalate the abuse or kill him if he tried to leave.

    With battered women, fear for the woman's life is one of the primary reasons for law enforcement to try to intervene. They tell her: "Look. If you stay with this guy long enough, then sooner or later he's likely going to kill you." And of course, as you've previously mentioned, he's also likely to kill her if she tries to leave.

    With a battered man, usually the guy is just plain being passive. He could resist if he wanted to. I mean... unless she's a martial arts master or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post

    I personally get pretty irritated when women say a man should never hit a woman, but the same women who say that, don't seem to think there is any harm in a woman hitting a man. Partners in a romantic relationship should never hit each other, period, but it happens and it shouldn't matter what gender the aggressor is, whoever did the hitting should go to jail but it is rare that a woman will be arrested for domestic violence, even if she admits to the cop that she was the aggressor. Even when witnesses tell the police that the man never hit back. I have personally witnessed police hauling a guy into jail when his girlfriend showed up at his place and attacked him in his own home. A home they did not share. We told the cops what we saw but he was still arrested and she was left unattended in his apartment and she ended up stealing many of his things. He never got his stuff back and has an arrest record for domestic violence, when it was a clear case of unprovoked assault.
    In Arizona in any domestic disturbance call both parties are arrested and processed, to determine who was the aggressor, who started it and who was hitting who. If only one was, the other did not get a black mark on their record. I think many states are starting to implement that policy, but personally I don't know how many of them are following that policy now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    In Arizona in any domestic disturbance call both parties are arrested and processed, to determine who was the aggressor, who started it and who was hitting who. If only one was, the other did not get a black mark on their record. I think many states are starting to implement that policy, but personally I don't know how many of them are following that policy now.
    That's a great idea- that way, neither party will call the cops on the other.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    Does anyone else find it strange to take pride in something that came about by chance?
    Yes to an extent, but then again I also find it strange that people feel pride for what someone else is doing because they happen to be from a place thats near (like someone eating chicken wings on a couch being exhaled that "his" bread-and-circuses sports team is winning), and that also happens to have zero benefit for humanity, "yeah, 'my' team came in 'first' at running around in a circle and doing absolutely nothing but running around in a circle, I am exhalted by my personal association with this achievement of being 1/10th of a second before the other team this one time on this specific day at running around in a circle (or pushing a ball around, etc), Yeah, Yeeewwah! "
    <-- (this green smile face was edited in, reason; just forgot about it, reason why I wanted it in the first place; because its more fun to have it, its part of the non verbal communication, thanks )
    Yep! Soccer fans through out the world keep dying because one team or the other lost. How sick is that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If the man doesn't try to hit back, then he's obviously not in fear for his life or safety.

    The underlying problem of physical abuse is not that a physical act of violence is being perpetrated. It's that it's being used as a tool for control, to deny another person their basic liberty.

    I've never met a man who was so afraid of his wife or girlfriend hitting him that he felt he couldn't be free to live his life how he wanted. Certainly I've never met a man who was genuinely afraid his girlfriend might escalate the abuse or kill him if he tried to leave.

    With battered women, fear for the woman's life is one of the primary reasons for law enforcement to try to intervene. They tell her: "Look. If you stay with this guy long enough, then sooner or later he's likely going to kill you." And of course, as you've previously mentioned, he's also likely to kill her if she tries to leave.

    With a battered man, usually the guy is just plain being passive. He could resist if he wanted to. I mean... unless she's a martial arts master or something.
    Sorry, but you do have to sleep don't you? Maybe, she knows things about you that are confidential. Threats and intimidation can be just as nasty as physical violence and can keep you in a state of fear. Consider yourself lucky you never got to know a women who could use those skills against you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    In Arizona in any domestic disturbance call both parties are arrested and processed, to determine who was the aggressor, who started it and who was hitting who. If only one was, the other did not get a black mark on their record. I think many states are starting to implement that policy, but personally I don't know how many of them are following that policy now.
    That's a great idea- that way, neither party will call the cops on the other.
    Typically the neighbors frequently make the call. I would anonymously.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    ....I am curious, however, do you feel the same way about sports scholarships?
    sports seemed good--"a sound mind in a sound body" but, college sports are buisness ventures, and do nothing for the universities' purpose of furthering education and knowledge. IMHO they have become a travestry and mockery of the institutions that spawned them. The "scholorships" allow the coaches to buy talent for their "games", and have become a mockery of the "scholar" part of scholarships. They ain't buying scholars!

    long ago at my 3rd university (SIU), I took a course in existential philosophy, and was amazed to see the room over 1/2 full of jocks------it seemed really crazy to my accumulated perspective. Then, the class started with the professor introducing himself, and introducing his philosophy. After which, he said that he was here to share his philosophy, and those interested could stay for an a or an f, but, if they wanted a sure bet, they could come up and sign off for a c.
    And all the jocks stood and lined up to sign away their education for a c. I stayed for the adventure into existentialism, and am the richer for it.

    I ain't no sports fan, so I'm biased in this. I suspect that there should be a place for spectator sports. I see no value in making it part of the universities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    ....I am curious, however, do you feel the same way about sports scholarships?
    sports seemed good--"a sound mind in a sound body" but, college sports are buisness ventures, and do nothing for the universities' purpose of furthering education and knowledge. IMHO they have become a travestry and mockery of the institutions that spawned them. The "scholorships" allow the coaches to buy talent for their "games", and have become a mockery of the "scholar" part of scholarships. They ain't buying scholars!

    long ago at my 3rd university (SIU), I took a course in existential philosophy, and was amazed to see the room over 1/2 full of jocks------it seemed really crazy to my accumulated perspective. Then, the class started with the professor introducing himself, and introducing his philosophy. After which, he said that he was here to share his philosophy, and those interested could stay for an a or an f, but, if they wanted a sure bet, they could come up and sign off for a c.
    And all the jocks stood and lined up to sign away their education for a c. I stayed for the adventure into existentialism, and am the richer for it.

    I ain't no sports fan, so I'm biased in this. I suspect that there should be a place for spectator sports. I see no value in making it part of the universities.
    I'm not much of a sports fan either, unless I'm actually playing the sport. Your philosophy professor made the right call for those of you in his class that really wanted to stay and learn. He got rid of all the time wasting distractions and much of the political problems D's and F's would cause him from powerful people that want certain players not to fail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    then sooner or later he's likely going to kill you." And of course, as you've previously mentioned, he's also likely to kill her if she tries to leave.

    With a battered man, usually the guy is just plain being passive. He could resist if he wanted to. I mean... unless she's a martial arts master or something.
    Sorry, but you do have to sleep don't you? Maybe, she knows things about you that are confidential. Threats and intimidation can be just as nasty as physical violence and can keep you in a state of fear. Consider yourself lucky you never got to know a women who could use those skills against you.[/QUOTE]

    If she's using blackmail, then you're not afraid for your life. You're just afraid of getting embarassed.

    If a woman leaves an abusive boyfriend or husband, the's got to worry that he's going to stalk her, then walk through the restraining order and put her in the hospital or even kill her. Neither fate is very uncommon. It's kind of an epidemic. There are a lot of men in our society who feel entitled to impose their will by using their fists, and even don't mind going to prison afterward so long as they "defended their honor" as they see it by putting the weaker person in their place.

    It makes me sad when people bring up the reverse abuse problem because it deflects attention off of a very serious issue by shifting focus onto a fairly trivial one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tranquille View Post
    ....I am curious, however, do you feel the same way about sports scholarships?
    sports seemed good--"a sound mind in a sound body" but, college sports are buisness ventures, and do nothing for the universities' purpose of furthering education and knowledge. IMHO they have become a travestry and mockery of the institutions that spawned them. The "scholorships" allow the coaches to buy talent for their "games", and have become a mockery of the "scholar" part of scholarships. They ain't buying scholars!

    long ago at my 3rd university (SIU), I took a course in existential philosophy, and was amazed to see the room over 1/2 full of jocks------it seemed really crazy to my accumulated perspective. Then, the class started with the professor introducing himself, and introducing his philosophy. After which, he said that he was here to share his philosophy, and those interested could stay for an a or an f, but, if they wanted a sure bet, they could come up and sign off for a c.
    And all the jocks stood and lined up to sign away their education for a c. I stayed for the adventure into existentialism, and am the richer for it.

    I ain't no sports fan, so I'm biased in this. I suspect that there should be a place for spectator sports. I see no value in making it part of the universities.
    So not really any different than my high school experience. Just more honest about it. I don't think all college athletes toss aside their education and assume they will go pro though. Some are arrogant enough to expect that but not all of them. My step-dad played foot ball for Purdue, but was pursuing a degree in electrical engineering. He never finished though because he got his draft papers to go to Vietnam and decided to enlist instead. He never returned to college but he is working in the field he was studying. Just not at the level having a complete degree would have given him access to.

    He had gone to school on a full scholarship as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    then sooner or later he's likely going to kill you." And of course, as you've previously mentioned, he's also likely to kill her if she tries to leave.

    With a battered man, usually the guy is just plain being passive. He could resist if he wanted to. I mean... unless she's a martial arts master or something.
    Sorry, but you do have to sleep don't you? Maybe, she knows things about you that are confidential. Threats and intimidation can be just as nasty as physical violence and can keep you in a state of fear. Consider yourself lucky you never got to know a women who could use those skills against you.
    If she's using blackmail, then you're not afraid for your life. You're just afraid of getting embarassed.

    If a woman leaves an abusive boyfriend or husband, the's got to worry that he's going to stalk her, then walk through the restraining order and put her in the hospital or even kill her. Neither fate is very uncommon. It's kind of an epidemic. There are a lot of men in our society who feel entitled to impose their will by using their fists, and even don't mind going to prison afterward so long as they "defended their honor" as they see it by putting the weaker person in their place.

    It makes me sad when people bring up the reverse abuse problem because it deflects attention off of a very serious issue by shifting focus onto a fairly trivial one.
    Yes men do have to sleep. And that is when some women kill. They also can kill you by paying someone else to do it. They can also kill you by setting you up. They put a gun in the house, call the police and tell them you are threatening her with a gun. Cops show up, she runs out screaming you come out, they assume you have a gun and open fire on you. You're dead and the cops just have to justify shooting a man who cannot speak for himself to show the woman was lying.

    You under estimate a woman's ability to kill a man by indirect means. She may even threaten to kill other people he cares about. Women can be dirty, very dirty. Consider yourself lucky you haven't come across one like that. I know men that have.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    If she's using blackmail, then you're not afraid for your life. You're just afraid of getting embarrassed.

    If a woman leaves an abusive boyfriend or husband, she's got to worry that he's going to stalk her, then walk through the restraining order and put her in the hospital or even kill her. Neither fate is very uncommon. It's kind of an epidemic. There are a lot of men in our society who feel entitled to impose their will by using their fists, and even don't mind going to prison afterward so long as they "defended their honor" as they see it by putting the weaker person in their place.

    It makes me sad when people bring up the reverse abuse problem because it deflects attention off of a very serious issue by shifting focus onto a fairly trivial one.
    I could have gone into more detail on the subject. The woman I knew was a narcissist that used men. She wouldn't do the stalking she'd have another man do it for her and she wasn't above sending men to do violence for her. She was an expert at using and controlling men. Several men she had as boyfriends ended up going to prison when she was tired of them and wanted them out of her life. The poor fools did her bidding then paid the price while she moved on. It's very easy to get involved with a sociopath/narcissist before you become aware of your situation, then very hard to get out of that situation. You without any experience in that situation have absolutely no idea what it's like. You might think you could handle the problem, but knowing how you think, I know you would be very surprised at what this kind of woman could do to you. Your probably thinking, how much could I know about the way you think, but I've read enough of your posts and have a very good idea about how you think.

    Anyway, I'm done trying to convince you and I hope you never have to find out the hard way.
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    In response to S.G.'s comment:
    The sad thing is, so do I. I've known people that ran afoul of the manipulative and underhanded side of a vengeful woman. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't meek, docile or submissive, at all.
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    My own mother still laughs today about the time she chased a newly ex boyfriend down the highway shooting at his gas tank. And no psychiatrist has ever even called her criminally insane. They do say she has anger issues though. Her male boss is afraid of her even. She has threatened to beat the hell out of him several times and dared him to call the police. Did they fire her? No they gave her a promotion and made her district manager rather than store manager. And my mom is usually quite likeable. Just don't piss her off.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    then sooner or later he's likely going to kill you." And of course, as you've previously mentioned, he's also likely to kill her if she tries to leave.

    With a battered man, usually the guy is just plain being passive. He could resist if he wanted to. I mean... unless she's a martial arts master or something.
    Sorry, but you do have to sleep don't you? Maybe, she knows things about you that are confidential. Threats and intimidation can be just as nasty as physical violence and can keep you in a state of fear. Consider yourself lucky you never got to know a women who could use those skills against you.
    If she's using blackmail, then you're not afraid for your life. You're just afraid of getting embarassed.

    If a woman leaves an abusive boyfriend or husband, the's got to worry that he's going to stalk her, then walk through the restraining order and put her in the hospital or even kill her. Neither fate is very uncommon. It's kind of an epidemic. There are a lot of men in our society who feel entitled to impose their will by using their fists, and even don't mind going to prison afterward so long as they "defended their honor" as they see it by putting the weaker person in their place.

    It makes me sad when people bring up the reverse abuse problem because it deflects attention off of a very serious issue by shifting focus onto a fairly trivial one.
    Yes men do have to sleep. And that is when some women kill. They also can kill you by paying someone else to do it. They can also kill you by setting you up. They put a gun in the house, call the police and tell them you are threatening her with a gun. Cops show up, she runs out screaming you come out, they assume you have a gun and open fire on you. You're dead and the cops just have to justify shooting a man who cannot speak for himself to show the woman was lying.

    You under estimate a woman's ability to kill a man by indirect means. She may even threaten to kill other people he cares about. Women can be dirty, very dirty. Consider yourself lucky you haven't come across one like that. I know men that have.
    Then she has one or two of the very long list of tools at the disposal of a male abuser. Indeed, the tools available to her are the hardest to wield and the least frightening. Also easy to defend against.

    Just leave her. That alone thwarts most of the options.

    But think of how she'll wield them and what the triggers are. A man may beat his child and or wife to within an inch of their life just because he had a bad day at work. He just gets mad over some little mistake and then takes her responses and/or denials as further provocation until he's worked himself into a frenzy. It makes him feel powerful, like taking a hit of cocaine or something. He'll apologize the next day.

    An abusive woman? What are her triggers? How frightened does a man have to be that he'll end up getting beat to within an inch of his life tomorrow due to forces entirely out of his control?

    I don't doubt that a woman can kill a man, or even hurt him. Perhaps you wish you'd killed your husband. I don't know. It's not fully a fantasy to say a woman can do damage. Just doesn't seem very likely she would, or that she'd take it as far as a vain, self absorbed, egotistical male abuser will when his prisoner tries to run from him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bad Robot View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    then sooner or later he's likely going to kill you." And of course, as you've previously mentioned, he's also likely to kill her if she tries to leave.

    With a battered man, usually the guy is just plain being passive. He could resist if he wanted to. I mean... unless she's a martial arts master or something.
    Sorry, but you do have to sleep don't you? Maybe, she knows things about you that are confidential. Threats and intimidation can be just as nasty as physical violence and can keep you in a state of fear. Consider yourself lucky you never got to know a women who could use those skills against you.
    If she's using blackmail, then you're not afraid for your life. You're just afraid of getting embarassed.

    If a woman leaves an abusive boyfriend or husband, the's got to worry that he's going to stalk her, then walk through the restraining order and put her in the hospital or even kill her. Neither fate is very uncommon. It's kind of an epidemic. There are a lot of men in our society who feel entitled to impose their will by using their fists, and even don't mind going to prison afterward so long as they "defended their honor" as they see it by putting the weaker person in their place.

    It makes me sad when people bring up the reverse abuse problem because it deflects attention off of a very serious issue by shifting focus onto a fairly trivial one.
    Yes men do have to sleep. And that is when some women kill. They also can kill you by paying someone else to do it. They can also kill you by setting you up. They put a gun in the house, call the police and tell them you are threatening her with a gun. Cops show up, she runs out screaming you come out, they assume you have a gun and open fire on you. You're dead and the cops just have to justify shooting a man who cannot speak for himself to show the woman was lying.

    You under estimate a woman's ability to kill a man by indirect means. She may even threaten to kill other people he cares about. Women can be dirty, very dirty. Consider yourself lucky you haven't come across one like that. I know men that have.
    Then she has one or two of the very long list of tools at the disposal of a male abuser. Indeed, the tools available to her are the hardest to wield and the least frightening. Also easy to defend against.

    Just leave her. That alone thwarts most of the options.

    But think of how she'll wield them and what the triggers are. A man may beat his child and or wife to within an inch of their life just because he had a bad day at work. He just gets mad over some little mistake and then takes her responses and/or denials as further provocation until he's worked himself into a frenzy. It makes him feel powerful, like taking a hit of cocaine or something. He'll apologize the next day.

    An abusive woman? What are her triggers? How frightened does a man have to be that he'll end up getting beat to within an inch of his life tomorrow due to forces entirely out of his control?

    I don't doubt that a woman can kill a man, or even hurt him. Perhaps you wish you'd killed your husband. I don't know. It's not fully a fantasy to say a woman can do damage. Just doesn't seem very likely she would, or that she'd take it as far as a vain, self absorbed, egotistical male abuser will when his prisoner tries to run from him.
    Wow, wish you luck. It's that mindset that sets someone up to be prey. Women are not always weaker than men. It doesn't necessarily take strength to beat someone to death.

    Imagine this.

    You are married to a woman. Everything seems fine until you have kids. You're working doing the good husband/father role. She is working too. She has this spotless reputation, PTA mom of the year. She volunteers at the local shelter. She throws small neighborhood parties inviting everyone on street over. She always makes sure EVERYTHING is just perfect. She has them all convinced she is a saint. She even has you thinking, "Wow, how did I get so lucky?" So she, like any equal partnered relationship would have, has access to all your bank accounts, your computer, you car, your phone. She tends to be or appears to be accident prone though. Constantly cutting her self when cooking. Slipping and falling bruising her knees or elbows. She even manages to fall and break an arm and bang up her cheek pretty bad just as you came home, slipped on some water that was spilled in the kitchen. So you take her to the ER. The docs, taking standard protocol rush you out of the room so they can talk to her, probably telling you they need you to fill out papers. There they ask her if she is being abused. She says yes. And she has been secretly telling some of her girlfriends that you are not very nice to her when the curtains are drawn. When other people are around she acts eager to serve you and plasters on the smile. But tells her friends that she has to be so nitpicky about things because if she isn't, you give her a beating. She has already isolated you from your old drinkin buddies, or other guy friends. Nagged you that they were a bad influence on you or told you they were not faithful to their wives. Or she just gave them shit behind your back, and since you didn't believe them, they told you to f*ck off. She has been telling you that your mom talks bad about you and that your dad hits on her. or any number of things that have caused you to have a falling out with your family. So now you have no close friends of your own, or family you can turn to. All of your friends are HER friends.

    So now there is public record of you beating her at the hospital. Complete with photos. But she tells them she doesn't want to press charges because she is afraid for herself and her kids. So they do as she asks but agree to keep the photos on file for her in case she needs them. This is how the system works. It is standard protocol.

    So she starts to get more controlling and you start to realize that Oz isn't what it's cracked up to be. You got invited by the boss to go play golf but she says no. You've gotten tired of her controlling anything and you go anyway. You get home, she slaps you and accuses you of cheating on her. You argue back and forth but you don't touch her. Over time the accusations and physical assaults against you get worse. Your anger finally gets the best of you and you push her against the wall just to restrain her. You leave handprint bruises on her shoulders. You are horrified by your own actions and apologize. She calls the police. They see the bruises and you admit to pinning her to the wall. You go to jail. All the physical abuse done to you means nothing at this point because there are no marks on you. Now you have a criminal record of domestic violence.

    When you get back she is all sweet and nice for a while. Then she starts again. And now she is threatening to call the police and have you arrested again. Telling you she will divorce you and take your kids away never letting you see them again. You realize that you have a domestic abuse record now and since it happened in front of the kids, its considered child abuse as well. You will never get custody if she leaves. You realize she is poisoning the kids minds against you too. They flinch when you reach out to them. They do this in front of teachers making them call CPS. The kids tell CPS that daddy is angry all the time and that he is scary and beats on mommy. They are afraid of you. Now you have a child abuse report against you. And the threats of taking your kids away from you continue. One day you come home to find the kids crying in their rooms. They both have lashes on them. They asked you why? "Why did you tell mommy to spank us!?! What did we do wrong?"

    Now you know she will hurt the kids when you aren't around. You have to get away from her. She tells you if you leave her, she will keep the kids and everytime she beats them it will be from you. You figure you will take the kids and run in the night with them, only to discover she has transferred all your money to some account that only has her name on it. And when she registered your car the last time around, she took your name off the title by forging your signature.

    You discover she has been reading your emails and your snail mail. You have no where to turn. She attacks you again. Can you really defend yourself without ending up in jail or worse prison? What will happen to your kids?

    Think it can't or doesn't happen? Think again. It goes underreported because of people like you who make men ashamed to come forward. Who make them feel like it's their fault they are being abused. The same thing used to be done to women. When will people like you stop doing it to men. Ironically, when it happened to women, it was more often than not, women who treated the abused women badly for coming forward. They figured if they stepped on the throats of those women who called for help, then they would be in less danger from their own abusive husbands. I used to hear loud mouth idiot women talk a load of crap about what they would do if a man ever put his hands on them. Hands are the least of any abusee's concern. It is the psychological trauma and the circumstances that the abuser creates that makes it hard to escape. My ex's would pressure me to having nervous breakdowns and then tell everyone I was mentally ill and threaten to take the kids from me.

    Abusers operate the same way whether they are male or female. And all they need is an unsuspecting victim. Your personality is usually ideal for them. Good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
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    then sooner or later he's likely going to kill you." And of course, as you've previously mentioned, he's also likely to kill her if she tries to leave.

    With a battered man, usually the guy is just plain being passive. He could resist if he wanted to. I mean... unless she's a martial arts master or something.
    Sorry, but you do have to sleep don't you? Maybe, she knows things about you that are confidential. Threats and intimidation can be just as nasty as physical violence and can keep you in a state of fear. Consider yourself lucky you never got to know a women who could use those skills against you.
    If she's using blackmail, then you're not afraid for your life. You're just afraid of getting embarassed.

    If a woman leaves an abusive boyfriend or husband, the's got to worry that he's going to stalk her, then walk through the restraining order and put her in the hospital or even kill her. Neither fate is very uncommon. It's kind of an epidemic. There are a lot of men in our society who feel entitled to impose their will by using their fists, and even don't mind going to prison afterward so long as they "defended their honor" as they see it by putting the weaker person in their place.

    It makes me sad when people bring up the reverse abuse problem because it deflects attention off of a very serious issue by shifting focus onto a fairly trivial one.
    Yes men do have to sleep. And that is when some women kill. They also can kill you by paying someone else to do it. They can also kill you by setting you up. They put a gun in the house, call the police and tell them you are threatening her with a gun. Cops show up, she runs out screaming you come out, they assume you have a gun and open fire on you. You're dead and the cops just have to justify shooting a man who cannot speak for himself to show the woman was lying.

    You under estimate a woman's ability to kill a man by indirect means. She may even threaten to kill other people he cares about. Women can be dirty, very dirty. Consider yourself lucky you haven't come across one like that. I know men that have.
    Then she has one or two of the very long list of tools at the disposal of a male abuser. Indeed, the tools available to her are the hardest to wield and the least frightening. Also easy to defend against.

    Just leave her. That alone thwarts most of the options.

    But think of how she'll wield them and what the triggers are. A man may beat his child and or wife to within an inch of their life just because he had a bad day at work. He just gets mad over some little mistake and then takes her responses and/or denials as further provocation until he's worked himself into a frenzy. It makes him feel powerful, like taking a hit of cocaine or something. He'll apologize the next day.

    An abusive woman? What are her triggers? How frightened does a man have to be that he'll end up getting beat to within an inch of his life tomorrow due to forces entirely out of his control?

    I don't doubt that a woman can kill a man, or even hurt him. Perhaps you wish you'd killed your husband. I don't know. It's not fully a fantasy to say a woman can do damage. Just doesn't seem very likely she would, or that she'd take it as far as a vain, self absorbed, egotistical male abuser will when his prisoner tries to run from him.
    Wow, wish you luck. It's that mindset that sets someone up to be prey. Women are not always weaker than men. It doesn't necessarily take strength to beat someone to death.

    Imagine this.

    You are married to a woman. Everything seems fine until you have kids. You're working doing the good husband/father role. She is working too. She has this spotless reputation, PTA mom of the year. She volunteers at the local shelter. She throws small neighborhood parties inviting everyone on street over. She always makes sure EVERYTHING is just perfect. She has them all convinced she is a saint. She even has you thinking, "Wow, how did I get so lucky?" So she, like any equal partnered relationship would have, has access to all your bank accounts, your computer, you car, your phone. She tends to be or appears to be accident prone though. Constantly cutting her self when cooking. Slipping and falling bruising her knees or elbows. She even manages to fall and break an arm and bang up her cheek pretty bad just as you came home, slipped on some water that was spilled in the kitchen. So you take her to the ER. The docs, taking standard protocol rush you out of the room so they can talk to her, probably telling you they need you to fill out papers. There they ask her if she is being abused. She says yes. And she has been secretly telling some of her girlfriends that you are not very nice to her when the curtains are drawn. When other people are around she acts eager to serve you and plasters on the smile. But tells her friends that she has to be so nitpicky about things because if she isn't, you give her a beating. She has already isolated you from your old drinkin buddies, or other guy friends. Nagged you that they were a bad influence on you or told you they were not faithful to their wives. Or she just gave them shit behind your back, and since you didn't believe them, they told you to f*ck off. She has been telling you that your mom talks bad about you and that your dad hits on her. or any number of things that have caused you to have a falling out with your family. So now you have no close friends of your own, or family you can turn to. All of your friends are HER friends.
    That would require real determination.

    By comparison, for a man to simply fly into a rage and hit his wife is very easy. May actually be difficult for some men *not* to do.

    One abuser needs to apply quite a lot of discipline in order to achieve their result. The other needs to be short on discipline. To actually be willing to hurt herself, this isn't somebody who's merely blowing off steam. She would have to genuinely hate you.


    So now there is public record of you beating her at the hospital. Complete with photos. But she tells them she doesn't want to press charges because she is afraid for herself and her kids. So they do as she asks but agree to keep the photos on file for her in case she needs them. This is how the system works. It is standard protocol.

    So she starts to get more controlling and you start to realize that Oz isn't what it's cracked up to be. You got invited by the boss to go play golf but she says no. You've gotten tired of her controlling anything and you go anyway. You get home, she slaps you and accuses you of cheating on her. You argue back and forth but you don't touch her. Over time the accusations and physical assaults against you get worse. Your anger finally gets the best of you and you push her against the wall just to restrain her. You leave handprint bruises on her shoulders. You are horrified by your own actions and apologize. She calls the police. They see the bruises and you admit to pinning her to the wall. You go to jail. All the physical abuse done to you means nothing at this point because there are no marks on you. Now you have a criminal record of domestic violence.

    When you get back she is all sweet and nice for a while. Then she starts again. And now she is threatening to call the police and have you arrested again. Telling you she will divorce you and take your kids away never letting you see them again. You realize that you have a domestic abuse record now and since it happened in front of the kids, its considered child abuse as well. You will never get custody if she leaves. You realize she is poisoning the kids minds against you too. They flinch when you reach out to them. They do this in front of teachers making them call CPS. The kids tell CPS that daddy is angry all the time and that he is scary and beats on mommy. They are afraid of you. Now you have a child abuse report against you. And the threats of taking your kids away from you continue. One day you come home to find the kids crying in their rooms. They both have lashes on them. They asked you why? "Why did you tell mommy to spank us!?! What did we do wrong?"

    Now you know she will hurt the kids when you aren't around. You have to get away from her. She tells you if you leave her, she will keep the kids and everytime she beats them it will be from you. You figure you will take the kids and run in the night with them, only to discover she has transferred all your money to some account that only has her name on it. And when she registered your car the last time around, she took your name off the title by forging your signature.

    You discover she has been reading your emails and your snail mail. You have no where to turn. She attacks you again. Can you really defend yourself without ending up in jail or worse prison? What will happen to your kids?
    So .... she beats the kids, but they're afraid of *you*? Wow. That would take some skill for her to pull off.

    Because up until now it seems to me the kids weren't previously being seriously traumatized. I mean, "seriously" is a relative term, but they weren't going to the hospital with bruises until she decided to include that in her evil plot against me.

    It's all so orchestrated. Maybe she should buy a fake curly mustache so she can begin twirling it.
    Some clocks are only right twice a day, but they are still right when they are right.
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  37. #36  
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy



    Think it can't or doesn't happen? Think again. It goes underreported because of people like you who make men ashamed to come forward. Who make them feel like it's their fault they are being abused. The same thing used to be done to women. When will people like you stop doing it to men. Ironically, when it happened to women, it was more often than not, women who treated the abused women badly for coming forward. They figured if they stepped on the throats of those women who called for help, then they would be in less danger from their own abusive husbands. I used to hear loud mouth idiot women talk a load of crap about what they would do if a man ever put his hands on them. Hands are the least of any abusee's concern. It is the psychological trauma and the circumstances that the abuser creates that makes it hard to escape. My ex's would pressure me to having nervous breakdowns and then tell everyone I was mentally ill and threaten to take the kids from me.

    Abusers operate the same way whether they are male or female. And all they need is an unsuspecting victim. Your personality is usually ideal for them. Good luck.
    I think it would happen with about the same frequency as a random serial killer choosing you as their next target. Man abusing wife happens with a staggeringly high frequency. They're not the same problem.

    Also I suspect that a lot of these men are omitting details. For the woman to be unafraid to hurt herself, ..... good chance she learned that lack of fear somewhere .... maybe by being hurt and then mastering her own fear so she could turn it on him? It could be she learned it in childhood. Or it could be she is showing him that she can play his own game back on him.

    If she waits for him to hit her again and then goes forward, she doesn't have the element of surprise. Hurting herself lets her choose when and where, and lets him know he's not in control. It's also a beautiful irony. He goes down for something he didn't do, to make up for all the times he didn't go down for things he had done. Do you see the poetic justice? It's the perfect kind of revenge. Cold. Calculated.




    Also.... I'm not an easy victim. I mastered my own fear as a child being hit by my father. I'm telling you what I would do in her situation. In a sense, I'm telling you what I actually did. Some abuse victims learn how to turn on their own attackers. I started provoking my father to hit me so he'd leave a visible mark. He figured out real quick that he wasn't half as good at the game as I was, and stopped hitting me altogether. To this day the man is morbidly afraid of me.

    I was 5, so hitting him back wasn't an option. I did what I had to do. (And to be clear, I doubt he was afraid of my 5 year old self, but more what I'd do later on if he kept it up. And knowing for certain he couldn't intimidate me into silence if someone asked me about it. )
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy



    Think it can't or doesn't happen? Think again. It goes underreported because of people like you who make men ashamed to come forward. Who make them feel like it's their fault they are being abused. The same thing used to be done to women. When will people like you stop doing it to men. Ironically, when it happened to women, it was more often than not, women who treated the abused women badly for coming forward. They figured if they stepped on the throats of those women who called for help, then they would be in less danger from their own abusive husbands. I used to hear loud mouth idiot women talk a load of crap about what they would do if a man ever put his hands on them. Hands are the least of any abusee's concern. It is the psychological trauma and the circumstances that the abuser creates that makes it hard to escape. My ex's would pressure me to having nervous breakdowns and then tell everyone I was mentally ill and threaten to take the kids from me.

    Abusers operate the same way whether they are male or female. And all they need is an unsuspecting victim. Your personality is usually ideal for them. Good luck.
    I think it would happen with about the same frequency as a random serial killer choosing you as their next target. Man abusing wife happens with a staggeringly high frequency. They're not the same problem.

    Also I suspect that a lot of these men are omitting details. For the woman to be unafraid to hurt herself, ..... good chance she learned that lack of fear somewhere .... maybe by being hurt and then mastering her own fear so she could turn it on him? It could be she learned it in childhood. Or it could be she is showing him that she can play his own game back on him.

    If she waits for him to hit her again and then goes forward, she doesn't have the element of surprise. Hurting herself lets her choose when and where, and lets him know he's not in control. It's also a beautiful irony. He goes down for something he didn't do, to make up for all the times he didn't go down for things he had done. Do you see the poetic justice? It's the perfect kind of revenge. Cold. Calculated.




    Also.... I'm not an easy victim. I mastered my own fear as a child being hit by my father. I'm telling you what I would do in her situation. In a sense, I'm telling you what I actually did. Some abuse victims learn how to turn on their own attackers. I started provoking my father to hit me so he'd leave a visible mark. He figured out real quick that he wasn't half as good at the game as I was, and stopped hitting me altogether. To this day the man is morbidly afraid of me.

    I was 5, so hitting him back wasn't an option. I did what I had to do. (To be clear, I don't think he was afraid of what I'd do at that age, but rather what I might do later on if he kept going. And whether he wanted a person who could do that to hate him enough to hurt him.)
    So you became an abuser? In my scenario she was abusing an innocent man. Are you changing the scenario I put forth to suit your own purpose. In my scenario, SHE WAS THE ABUSER, NOT THE MAN. Why can you not see that? Or is it abuse when a man defends himself, but poetic justice when a woman abuses an innocent man. What justice is there in an innocent man being framed for abuse?

    You say some victims turn on their attackers. Fine, I get that, but in my scenario, She was the abuser. If her victim turns on her, he will end up in prison most likely leaving his children unprotected. Are you intentionally ignoring that?

    Being the smaller person doesn't always make the smaller one the victim. READ my scenario. She started the vicious attacks completely unprovoked. Yet you are acting as if he deserved it. Maybe you are projecting your anger towards your father against all men, even this fictional one in a clear cut case of being framed for a crime he didn't commit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post

    That would require real determination.

    By comparison, for a man to simply fly into a rage and hit his wife is very easy. May actually be difficult for some men *not* to do.

    One abuser needs to apply quite a lot of discipline in order to achieve their result. The other needs to be short on discipline. To actually be willing to hurt herself, this isn't somebody who's merely blowing off steam. She would have to genuinely hate you.


    So now there is public record of you beating her at the hospital. Complete with photos. But she tells them she doesn't want to press charges because she is afraid for herself and her kids. So they do as she asks but agree to keep the photos on file for her in case she needs them. This is how the system works. It is standard protocol.

    So she starts to get more controlling and you start to realize that Oz isn't what it's cracked up to be. You got invited by the boss to go play golf but she says no. You've gotten tired of her controlling anything and you go anyway. You get home, she slaps you and accuses you of cheating on her. You argue back and forth but you don't touch her. Over time the accusations and physical assaults against you get worse. Your anger finally gets the best of you and you push her against the wall just to restrain her. You leave handprint bruises on her shoulders. You are horrified by your own actions and apologize. She calls the police. They see the bruises and you admit to pinning her to the wall. You go to jail. All the physical abuse done to you means nothing at this point because there are no marks on you. Now you have a criminal record of domestic violence.

    When you get back she is all sweet and nice for a while. Then she starts again. And now she is threatening to call the police and have you arrested again. Telling you she will divorce you and take your kids away never letting you see them again. You realize that you have a domestic abuse record now and since it happened in front of the kids, its considered child abuse as well. You will never get custody if she leaves. You realize she is poisoning the kids minds against you too. They flinch when you reach out to them. They do this in front of teachers making them call CPS. The kids tell CPS that daddy is angry all the time and that he is scary and beats on mommy. They are afraid of you. Now you have a child abuse report against you. And the threats of taking your kids away from you continue. One day you come home to find the kids crying in their rooms. They both have lashes on them. They asked you why? "Why did you tell mommy to spank us!?! What did we do wrong?"

    Now you know she will hurt the kids when you aren't around. You have to get away from her. She tells you if you leave her, she will keep the kids and everytime she beats them it will be from you. You figure you will take the kids and run in the night with them, only to discover she has transferred all your money to some account that only has her name on it. And when she registered your car the last time around, she took your name off the title by forging your signature.

    You discover she has been reading your emails and your snail mail. You have no where to turn. She attacks you again. Can you really defend yourself without ending up in jail or worse prison? What will happen to your kids?
    So .... she beats the kids, but they're afraid of *you*? Wow. That would take some skill for her to pull off.

    Because up until now it seems to me the kids weren't previously being seriously traumatized. I mean, "seriously" is a relative term, but they weren't going to the hospital with bruises until she decided to include that in her evil plot against me.

    It's all so orchestrated. Maybe she should buy a fake curly mustache so she can begin twirling it.
    People like this are called sociopaths and/or psychopaths and they enjoy the game. It's what they do. my second husband had a long drawn out plan of action against me that started before we even met. He looked for prey and he found it. I wasn't his first victim or his last. The woman he was married to before me he met in a depression chat room. Some hunt for prey, others lie in wait for it to come to them. From both his wife before me and myself he took advantage of our citizenship and our finances. He didn't physically beat either of us, though he did rape the first one. With me he just used our shared religion against me to assure I never said no. Then he took me to pakistan where I couldn't get medical care for my chronic/potentially fatal illness. When I didn't die quick enough and I had caught on to his plan I had to get as twisted as him to get away. Thats when the death threats against me and my kids started. I still get emails from him from time to time threatening to kill me or my kids.

    edit: if a 5 year old can learn to be calculated and cunning, what makes you think a grown woman can't be? A woman can want to control a man just as easily as a man can want to control a woman. And most people who abuse adult life partners don't start abusing right away. They have to create the circumstances that will allow them to get away with it for a while at least. Abusing your own children can come quickly because a parent is already in a position of power over the child and the child has that natural love for the parent and a naivete about the world.

    So you were abused as a child, that is not the same experience one has when abused as an adult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    So you were abused as a child, that is not the same experience one has when abused as an adult.
    Yeah. It has the advantage that the abuser doesn't really want to kill you.

    I see now that an abusive spouse may actually have your death in mind.

    However it seems there are two kinds of abuser here. There's the calculated abuser and the impulsive abuser. It appears that women and men alike are plagued by calculated abusers. Sociopaths exist on both sides of the fence. I also think they would tend to be much less common than impulsive abusers.

    The impulsive abusers, on the other hand, appear to be almost exclusively men. My father was definitely an impulsive abuser, not a calculated one.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post

    Also.... I'm not an easy victim. I mastered my own fear as a child being hit by my father. I'm telling you what I would do in her situation. In a sense, I'm telling you what I actually did. Some abuse victims learn how to turn on their own attackers. I started provoking my father to hit me so he'd leave a visible mark. He figured out real quick that he wasn't half as good at the game as I was, and stopped hitting me altogether. To this day the man is morbidly afraid of me.

    I was 5, so hitting him back wasn't an option. I did what I had to do. (To be clear, I don't think he was afraid of what I'd do at that age, but rather what I might do later on if he kept going. And whether he wanted a person who could do that to hate him enough to hurt him.)
    So you became an abuser? In my scenario she was abusing an innocent man. Are you changing the scenario I put forth to suit your own purpose. In my scenario, SHE WAS THE ABUSER, NOT THE MAN. Why can you not see that? Or is it abuse when a man defends himself, but poetic justice when a woman abuses an innocent man. What justice is there in an innocent man being framed for abuse?

    You say some victims turn on their attackers. Fine, I get that, but in my scenario, She was the abuser. If her victim turns on her, he will end up in prison most likely leaving his children unprotected. Are you intentionally ignoring that?

    Being the smaller person doesn't always make the smaller one the victim. READ my scenario. She started the vicious attacks completely unprovoked. Yet you are acting as if he deserved it. Maybe you are projecting your anger towards your father against all men, even this fictional one in a clear cut case of being framed for a crime he didn't commit.

    Abusing the abuser? That doesn't strike me as such a bad character flaw. I think most abusers won't stop unless they're confronted with that possibility.

    I also used to beat up other kids on recess to blow off steam, though.

    However I never had any stomach for hitting girls. Also if a person didn't resist or fight back at all, then I usually felt irresistibly compelled to walk away. I was looking for a fight, not a turkey shoot. And if they did fight back, I stopped hitting them when they finally broke, gave in and exposed their jugular, so to speak. And then I felt a lot of remorse. I'd tell myself I wasn't going to do it again - but later on I did it again.

    Finally when I was 10 I took a vow of pacifism. I kind of realized there was something wrong with me in terms of my ability to use violence rightly, so I forsook it entirely until I was 20.
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  41. #40  
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    Quote Originally Posted by kojax View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    So you were abused as a child, that is not the same experience one has when abused as an adult.
    Yeah. It has the advantage that the abuser doesn't really want to kill you.

    I see now that an abusive spouse may actually have your death in mind.

    However it seems there are two kinds of abuser here. There's the calculated abuser and the impulsive abuser. It appears that women and men alike are plagued by calculated abusers. Sociopaths exist on both sides of the fence. I also think they would tend to be much less common than impulsive abusers.

    The impulsive abusers, on the other hand, appear to be almost exclusively men. My father was definitely an impulsive abuser, not a calculated one.

    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post

    Also.... I'm not an easy victim. I mastered my own fear as a child being hit by my father. I'm telling you what I would do in her situation. In a sense, I'm telling you what I actually did. Some abuse victims learn how to turn on their own attackers. I started provoking my father to hit me so he'd leave a visible mark. He figured out real quick that he wasn't half as good at the game as I was, and stopped hitting me altogether. To this day the man is morbidly afraid of me.

    I was 5, so hitting him back wasn't an option. I did what I had to do. (To be clear, I don't think he was afraid of what I'd do at that age, but rather what I might do later on if he kept going. And whether he wanted a person who could do that to hate him enough to hurt him.)
    So you became an abuser? In my scenario she was abusing an innocent man. Are you changing the scenario I put forth to suit your own purpose. In my scenario, SHE WAS THE ABUSER, NOT THE MAN. Why can you not see that? Or is it abuse when a man defends himself, but poetic justice when a woman abuses an innocent man. What justice is there in an innocent man being framed for abuse?

    You say some victims turn on their attackers. Fine, I get that, but in my scenario, She was the abuser. If her victim turns on her, he will end up in prison most likely leaving his children unprotected. Are you intentionally ignoring that?

    Being the smaller person doesn't always make the smaller one the victim. READ my scenario. She started the vicious attacks completely unprovoked. Yet you are acting as if he deserved it. Maybe you are projecting your anger towards your father against all men, even this fictional one in a clear cut case of being framed for a crime he didn't commit.

    Abusing the abuser? That doesn't strike me as such a bad character flaw. I think most abusers won't stop unless they're confronted with that possibility.

    I also used to beat up other kids on recess to blow off steam, though.

    However I never had any stomach for hitting girls. Also if a person didn't resist or fight back at all, then I usually felt irresistibly compelled to walk away. I was looking for a fight, not a turkey shoot. And if they did fight back, I stopped hitting them when they finally broke, gave in and exposed their jugular, so to speak. And then I felt a lot of remorse. I'd tell myself I wasn't going to do it again - but later on I did it again.

    Finally when I was 10 I took a vow of pacifism. I kind of realized there was something wrong with me in terms of my ability to use violence rightly, so I forsook it entirely until I was 20.
    I can understand why you may take a vow of pacifism. I did the same thing at the age of 13. I used to beat on guys exclusively. I saw my mother beaten by my alcoholic step dad. But at the age of thirteen, being undefeated (mainly because guys were too shocked that a tiny little girl just opened a can of whoopass on them showing no fear at all to get a single swing in before I had then on the floor bleeding), I figured there was eventually gonna be a guy who wasn't shocked and he would beat me to a pulp. So I figured I'd stop while I was ahead. And I didn't get in fights anymore. Until I got married anyway. By then I had gotten weak and was in no position to defend myself, plus I had small children to worry about if I had been killed. But I did start watching MMA videos and watched how little guys took out big ones using leverage rather than strength.

    Becoming a pacifist, more or less, set me up to be an easy mark. Not pacifism alone but my entirety of life experiences. The calculated predators look for people who are weak. Not necessarily physically weak. Emotional weakness can make the most physically strong body builder a meek little mouse and easy to control.

    Their goal is rarely to kill the victim. They want to control them. They are parasites and need something from the victim. Sometimes its simply validation of their own perceived authoritarian status. To have you on the floor begging for mercy is affirmation of their might and strength which is where they feed their own self esteem or ego. Those would be the more impulsive ones but even the impulse ones follow a pattern. They do it subconciously. They isolate you from family and friends and make you dependent on them for your very survival in some way. Then when they have unrestricted access to something you love more than them, such as your children, that's when they can start being the bastards that they are and the physical abuse starts. but its something that they work up to. It's rare that anyone gets in a relationship with an abuser after having been beaten on a first date.
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