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Thread: Is life meaningless ?

  1. #1 Is life meaningless ? 
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    We and all other livings live life. What is purpose of life ? Just utility ?
    It seems there is no purpose of life and a life without purpose meaningless ?
    Consciousness & feelings are just biochemical reactions
    Life arose from organic compounds which themselves have origin from in organic matter

    Does all this not make life purpose less
    and life just a result of matter reactions


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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Does all this not make life purpose less and life just a result of matter reactions
    Yes.
    What's your point?


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  4. #3  
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    Yes it seems meansingless
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    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    The thing is, yes it is meaningless in the grand scheme of things, but you can give personal meaning to life. It can mean something to you even if it means nothing to the universe in general. Even if there is no god, no heaven, no hell, no bottomless whiskey barrel, no land of fluffy pink horny horses. Your life can mean plenty to you and to those who you interact with and have an effect on. Jesus may well have never existed but just the idea of him effects a great many people and gives them meaning. Meaning is something that we create in our own minds. There is no harm in it. And it is usually quite useful in providing motivation to be productive in some way.

    So meaning and determining what it may or may not be is personal and unique to each individual. You can meander through life with no direction no goals and no purpose and accomplish little and within a few years of your passing,no one will remember you existed and it won't matter to you, because you are dead, or anyone else because you simply didn't make yourself matter to anyone. Or... you can choose to declare for yourself a purpose and meaning to your existence, use that as a motivation to become better than what you are. Motivation to make your existence known and to matter to others so that when you die, if it is important enough to you, that you will be remembered and that your life will somehow have improved the lives of others you knew and those who come after you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    We and all other livings live life. What is purpose of life ? Just utility ?
    It seems there is no purpose of life and a life without purpose meaningless ?
    Consciousness & feelings are just biochemical reactions
    Life arose from organic compounds which themselves have origin from in organic matter

    Does all this not make life purpose less
    and life just a result of matter reactions
    You nailed it.

    But you are here. You feel and even if it's by no design or purpose- that allows you the freedom to choose your purpose. I hope you choose it well.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Life has meanings but some people just haven't found theirs yet. Everyone can find a purpose for themselves if they so desire but many are unwilling, uneducated, lazy or non committal to finding theirs.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
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  8. #7  
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    short answer:
    Yes, life is meaningless!

    see
    absurdism
    existentialism
    exestential nihilism
    ....................
    or
    we just don't know
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  9. #8  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Yes it seems meansingless
    You were created without meaning. That doesn't mean you cannot give your life meaning through your actions.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    hi, simply...yes...when...we...have...knowledge
    ...and...no...wisdom...below...are...two...questio ns
    ...that...open...the...door...to...wisdom...and... meaning!

    1. Whats it all about?

    2. Why?

    Answers

    1. To Learn!

    2. Coz...there...really...is...something...next!


    peace&love...vern
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  11. #10  
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    My meaning to say was not related to live in optimistic or pacifistic manner.
    Naturally life is beautiful and with our senses we can take physical utility, mental utility
    and other happiness. We can take spiritual utility by other good works. We can enjoy life and make it purposeful for us.
    My means was just from ultimate point of view that livings are not more important than non livings. Ultimately nature keeps no difference between them.
    Both have equal important and converted from one to another.
    Life is nothing more than a series of senseless and unplanned chemical reactions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vernpeace View Post
    hi, simply...yes...when...we...have...knowledge
    ...and...no...wisdom...below...are...two...questio ns
    ...that...open...the...door...to...wisdom...and... meaning!

    1. Whats it all about?

    2. Why?

    Answers

    1. To Learn!

    2. Coz...there...really...is...something...next!


    peace&love...vern
    Please don't type like that. It makes my nose bleed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Please don't type like that. It makes my nose bleed.
    He's been told that on each of twenty five posts and it has made no difference, yet.
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  14. #13  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    My means was just from ultimate point of view that livings are not more important than non livings.
    But I think you are misguided in your reasoning for living things have the ability to do things that non living things do not and therefore they possess the ability to use the non living things whereas non living things cannot use living things.
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    Malignant Pimple shlunka's Avatar
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    Yes, we're just the random collocations of matter. What did you expect, magical unicorns had violent intercourse with each other, and the embryo inside the female unicorn "if they're not hermaphroditic" contains the entire universe, and they mated just to create the human species and watch us experience existence with unadulterated thought? No, coincidence brought us here, our experiencing of existence is the combination of biological systems, and our thoughts are likely determined 0 by past actions and genetics. Obviously you find some sort of meaning in life, as you certainly haven't blown your brains out yet, something is keeping you alive "likely survival instincts but whatever", and perhaps that is the subjective purpose of life, to simply experience consciousness? Or perhaps I'm wildly incorrect, the two cups of meaningless coffee I just ingested in a meaningless fashion haven't stimulated my meaningless mind to think in the slightly less deluded manner I experience when fully awake.
    Last edited by shlunka; April 20th, 2013 at 10:18 AM. Reason: I'm freaking awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Or perhaps I'm wildly incorrect, the two cups of meaningless coffee I just ingested in a meaningless fashion haven't stimulated my meaningless mind to think in the slightly less deluded manner I experience when fully awake.
    Last edited by shlunka; April 20th, 2013 at 10:18 AM. Reason: I'm freaking awesome.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Or perhaps I'm wildly incorrect, the two cups of meaningless coffee I just ingested in a meaningless fashion haven't stimulated my meaningless mind to think in the slightly less deluded manner I experience when fully awake.
    Last edited by shlunka; April 20th, 2013 at 10:18 AM. Reason: I'm freaking awesome.
    The deluded manner of thought can sometimes bring arrogance.
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    Life is an octopus. It has googols of tentacles disguised as life forms dispersed throughout the universe. Cutting one off hardly affects it as it has the capability of growing them back and more. So what does it mean you ask? I haven't a clue.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Repeat- just for fun:
    The Egg
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  20. #19  
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    alternately
    before animals roamed the earth
    the plants were poisoning the atmosphere with their waste product---oxygen. Which led to raging wild fires almost exterminating those wicked vermin(the oxygen producers)
    the poor plants really needed us
    then the animals began to inhale the waste product, and exhale the life giving CO2, insects, then amphibians, then reptiles, (during the great age of the reptiles and birds, they couldn't keep up with the plants,O levels were still 20-30% higher than today, and wild fires still raged, then, finally mammals, and we began to proliferate consuming the waste product of the plants and offering them our precious CO2, still, not quite enough, so we evolved into the lords of fire, exponentially increasing our simbiosis with our atmospheric counterpart---------------and the plants love us for it, ever crying for more CO2-----------

    If you really need meaning in this life
    please
    go exhale on a plant, then inhale it's simbiotic gift
    share the joy
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    Yes, life is meaningless.

    However, in the last 4000 + years of history he we have created a meaning to live: Civilization. We do not live for ourselves, we live for each other and the betterment of our societies. We live, we die, and society endures. She's always watching, always learning and always growing.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beyondthought View Post
    Yes, life is meaningless.

    However, in the last 4000 + years of history he we have created a meaning to live: Civilization. We do not live for ourselves, we live for each other and the betterment of our societies. We live, we die, and society endures. She's always watching, always learning and always growing.
    from the evidence of archaeological art, and recently gobleki tepe i'd bump that 4k out to atleast 29k, and likely 35k (so far)(maybe more)
    maybe it resides in our hard wiring
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beyondthought View Post
    Yes, life is meaningless.

    However, in the last 4000 + years of history he we have created a meaning to live: Civilization. We do not live for ourselves, we live for each other and the betterment of our societies. We live, we die, and society endures. She's always watching, always learning and always growing.
    But our society is made up of an animal species that will go extinct at some future date. So in the grand scheme of things what was accomplished? If we can get off this world an colonize other worlds or places not on Earth (putting our eggs in more baskets) we might be able to put off the inevitable extinction for quite awhile. But will even this give life any more meaning?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    alternately
    before animals roamed the earth
    the plants were poisoning the atmosphere with their waste product---oxygen. Which led to raging wild fires almost exterminating those wicked vermin(the oxygen producers)
    the poor plants really needed us
    then the animals began to inhale the waste product, and exhale the life giving CO2, insects, then amphibians, then reptiles, (during the great age of the reptiles and birds, they couldn't keep up with the plants,O levels were still 20-30% higher than today, and wild fires still raged, then, finally mammals, and we began to proliferate consuming the waste product of the plants and offering them our precious CO2, still, not quite enough, so we evolved into the lords of fire, exponentially increasing our simbiosis with our atmospheric counterpart---------------and the plants love us for it, ever crying for more CO2-----------

    If you really need meaning in this life
    please
    go exhale on a plant, then inhale it's simbiotic gift
    share the joy
    I prefer to take hedge trimmers to the defenseless plants, it gives me a sense of power.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I prefer to take hedge trimmers to the defenseless plants, it gives me a sense of power.
    In Arizona most people have rock yards and when the weeds grow in them the best way to do them in is with a propane flame thrower. (Much satisfaction)
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Beyondthought View Post
    Yes, life is meaningless.

    However, in the last 4000 + years of history he we have created a meaning to live: Civilization. We do not live for ourselves, we live for each other and the betterment of our societies. We live, we die, and society endures. She's always watching, always learning and always growing.
    from the evidence of archaeological art, and recently gobleki tepe i'd bump that 4k out to atleast 29k, and likely 35k (so far)(maybe more)
    maybe it resides in our hard wiring
    For safety reason i said 4000+ . As a young child when my school books noted that civilization was formed around 5000 bce I thought them wrong. I always said that there is evidence of civilized tribes existing in Egypt and Libya from 20,000 bce + but was only told by my teacher's I was wrong. And, not to start a wildfire here at he forum I went with 4000 + . Yes, we have been civilized for much longer then what our books tell us.... well, most of us anyways.

    At Rad Robot: Were you a fan of LOST by chance? And to go off what you said: Yes, this is what we are fighting for I believe. Somehow somewhere down the line of evolution we were hardwired to explore. It's as if we were meant to leave this planet. Now, this is a wild and fringe idea of mine, but I have always argued that we are a lot smaller then we think we are. Our solar system and galaxies for as far as we know are the nuclei of a cell of some much greater being. Perhaps humans are like the code that is born in the mitochondria of a cell. I don't remember what the scientific terminology was but before a cell passes data off to another it is formed in some deep recess of the cell. It must fill that 'sack' before it is sent off to the next cell. Perhaps our evolution is this process in the making. We must fill this planet before we can leave to the next. I know, this is wild and far fetched but it could very well be the case of our existence.... and I have not had my coffee yet.
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    Life is an end in and of itself. Of all of the different manifestations of existence throughout the universe, life seems more interesting than most. Would you rather be a single carbon atom or some hydrogen gas? Something void of all feeling and consciousness?

    On top of that, of all forms of life (that we know of) we humans have the highest level of intellectual comprehensibility and depth of emotion. Being matter and energy comprised in such a way that we are able to think and feel, experience, observe, etc. etc... Such a rare thing, even for a brief moment, is worth more than eons of existing as all of the inanimate objects in the universe combined.

    Is life pointless? Only if you think that it is.
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  28. #27  
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1(mpl)-E View Post
    Life is an end in and of itself. Of all of the different manifestations of existence throughout the universe, life seems more interesting than most. Would you rather be a single carbon atom or some hydrogen gas? Something void of all feeling and consciousness?

    On top of that, of all forms of life (that we know of) we humans have the highest level of intellectual comprehensibility and depth of emotion. Being matter and energy comprised in such a way that we are able to think and feel, experience, observe, etc. etc... Such a rare thing, even for a brief moment, is worth more than eons of existing as all of the inanimate objects in the universe combined.

    Is life pointless? Only if you think that it is.
    Are you more important than a stone outside your house for nature.
    For nature you and stone are equal important.
    Specially when Nature does not have conciseness and thinking power
    Specially when life is just a material reactions process comes and goes due to the properties of matter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1(mpl)-E View Post
    Is life pointless? Only if you think that it is.
    Vice versa, surely.
    Life is essentially meaningless unless you decide that it's not and find a meaning that works for you.
    Like you said - Life is an end in and of itself.
    Self-perpetuation isn't a meaning, it's a goal.

    Such a rare thing, even for a brief moment, is worth more than eons of existing as all of the inanimate objects in the universe combined.
    According to whom? Us or the rock?
    "Worth" is a human perspective.
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by S1(mpl)-E View Post
    Life is an end in and of itself. Of all of the different manifestations of existence throughout the universe, life seems more interesting than most. Would you rather be a single carbon atom or some hydrogen gas? Something void of all feeling and consciousness?

    On top of that, of all forms of life (that we know of) we humans have the highest level of intellectual comprehensibility and depth of emotion. Being matter and energy comprised in such a way that we are able to think and feel, experience, observe, etc. etc... Such a rare thing, even for a brief moment, is worth more than eons of existing as all of the inanimate objects in the universe combined.

    Is life pointless? Only if you think that it is.
    Are you more important than a stone outside your house for nature.
    For nature you and stone are equal important.
    Specially when Nature does not have conciseness and thinking power
    Specially when life is just a material reactions process comes and goes due to the properties of matter.
    Am I more important than a rock? Of course I am! Why? Because I say so! Because if I wanted to I could go get that rock and smash it into tiny pieces, turn it into a fine powder, melt it down, maybe make something out of it, use it as landscaping, or throw it in the bottom of the sea and it can't say a damn thing about it!

    Does nature think that I'm more important? Well, we are nature, I am nature, I say that I'm more important, and I have consciousness, so nature has consciousness, so the answer is yes, nature does think that, the rock can't speak for itself and contradict me, I guess you guys can if you want . There is often this human sense that we 'apart' from nature, but in reality we are as much a part of it as gravity or anything else.

    Do we need some sort of external validation to make us important? Well we're the lords of nature is a sense. I mean we're making atom bombs and computers and space ships and submarines etc. etc. The level at which we can control, manipulate, and use nature to our own advantages and purposes is unprecedented in the cosmos! I say that gives us plenty of cosmic validation. Remember the 2-slit trick? We can even control how external subatomic particles behave just by thinking about them! How's that for clout? Of course we have our limitations in knowledge and capabilities and are sometimes humbled, but I for one would never trade this experience in for being a damn rock!
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    ok?

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  32. #31  
    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1(mpl)-E View Post
    Am I more important than a rock? Of course I am! Why? Because I say so!
    Personal opinion then.

    Because if I wanted to I could go get that rock and smash it into tiny pieces, turn it into a fine powder, melt it down, maybe make something out of it, use it as landscaping, or throw it in the bottom of the sea and it can't say a damn thing about it!
    Non-sequitur.

    I have consciousness, so nature has consciousness
    Are you sure synecdoche works in this case?
    The vast majority of mammals are quaprupeds, does that mean the universe has four legs? Oh wait, mammals are outnumbered by insects. So the universe has six legs...

    so the answer is yes, nature does think that
    Nope, supposition, personal preference again.

    There is often this human sense that we 'apart' from nature, but in reality we are as much a part of it as gravity or anything else.
    Yet you've just spent the entirety of this post elevating yourself above the rest of nature.

    Well we're the lords of nature is a sense. I mean we're making atom bombs and computers and space ships and submarines etc. etc. The level at which we can control, manipulate, and use nature to our own advantages and purposes is unprecedented in the cosmos! I say that gives us plenty of cosmic validation.
    So what you're saying is that we're fairly big fish (how'd we do against hurricanes? landslides? earthquakes?) in a f*cking HUUUGE pond.
    What happens when (not if) the Sun goes blooey? What happens if something else way out there goes blooey and floods the entire Solar System with hard x-rays?
    Oh yeah - unprecedented in the cosmos? Unsupported.

    Remember the 2-slit trick? We can even control how external subatomic particles behave just by thinking about them! How's that for clout?
    You're mistaking discovering how the universe behaves under specific conditions with control.
    And "thinking about them"? Nope, check again.

    If we disappeared tomorrow the universe wouldn't even notice, much less care.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    ... If we disappeared tomorrow the universe wouldn't even notice, much less care.
    You do not know this.
    You can not know this.

    Not bad as conjectures go, but, conjecture none the less.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    ... If we disappeared tomorrow the universe wouldn't even notice, much less care.
    You do not know this.
    You can not know this.

    Not bad as conjectures go, but, conjecture none the less.
    There is zero evidence to suggest otherwise.
    Hypotheses non fingo...
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    [QUOTE=Dywyddyr;415624]
    Quote Originally Posted by S1(mpl)-E View Post
    Am I more important than a rock? Of course I am! Why? Because I say so!
    Personal opinion then.
    The point is that other forms of nature aren't necessarily capable of formulating such an opinion, but we are which is what gives it its credence.

    Because if I wanted to I could go get that rock and smash it into tiny pieces, turn it into a fine powder, melt it down, maybe make something out of it, use it as landscaping, or throw it in the bottom of the sea and it can't say a damn thing about it!
    Non-sequitur.
    Have you heard of the consequences of erudite vernacular utilized irrespective of necessity? Or maybe you just like Latin words...

    I have consciousness, so nature has consciousness
    Are you sure synecdoche works in this case?
    The vast majority of mammals are quaprupeds, does that mean the universe has four legs? Oh wait, mammals are outnumbered by insects. So the universe has six legs...
    Oooo I didn't say the universe, I said nature. And absolutely nature has 4 legs, like when it's a quadruped, unless that quadruped got maimed by an octopus, in which case maybe nature has 3 legs.

    so the answer is yes, nature does think that
    Nope, supposition, personal preference again.
    See above, by virtue of being able to formulate such an opinion innately lends it some cosmic validity. Now I am not saying that untested opinions automatically have cosmic validity, there is a distinct difference, it is the capacity of being able form opinions in first place.

    There is often this human sense that we 'apart' from nature, but in reality we are as much a part of it as gravity or anything else.
    Yet you've just spent the entirety of this post elevating yourself above the rest of nature.
    Life tends to do that in general, but consciousness especially.

    Well we're the lords of nature is a sense. I mean we're making atom bombs and computers and space ships and submarines etc. etc. The level at which we can control, manipulate, and use nature to our own advantages and purposes is unprecedented in the cosmos! I say that gives us plenty of cosmic validation.
    So what you're saying is that we're fairly big fish (how'd we do against hurricanes? landslides? earthquakes?) in a f*cking HUUUGE pond.
    What happens when (not if) the Sun goes blooey? What happens if something else way out there goes blooey and floods the entire Solar System with hard x-rays?
    Hey, I'm not saying that it couldn't all be over in a second, I'm simply pointing out that we should be more positive about it and enjoy the ride.
    Oh yeah - unprecedented in the cosmos? Unsupported.
    Well, unprecedented in the known cosmos, but you're right, we don't know much about most of the cosmos.

    Remember the 2-slit trick? We can even control how external subatomic particles behave just by thinking about them! How's that for clout?
    You're mistaking discovering how the universe behaves under specific conditions with control.
    And "thinking about them"? Nope, check again.
    OK so, recording data for usage in intellectual extrapolation with the data recording element of the interaction being irrelevant to the results of subatomic particle behavior. Happy?

    If we disappeared tomorrow the universe wouldn't even notice, much less care.
    Your unsupported personal opinion then.
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    It's meaningless only for the lost atheists.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUrfrcHaUNg
    Men are four: He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool--shun him; He who knows not and knows he knows not, he is simple--teach him; He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep--wake him; He who knows and knows he knows, hi is wise--follow him!
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1(mpl)-E View Post
    The point is that other forms of nature aren't necessarily capable of formulating such an opinion, but we are which is what gives it its credence.
    The only "credence" that has is what we claim it has.

    Have you heard of the consequences of erudite vernacular utilized irrespective of necessity? Or maybe you just like Latin words...
    Or maybe you've never come across such a common and useful phrase before. It's used a great deal on here.
    You're sat in front of a computer, with the entire internet accesible from it. Avail yourself of it, get an education.

    Oooo I didn't say the universe, I said nature.
    Oh right. Because the universe isn't nature.

    And absolutely nature has 4 legs, like when it's a quadruped, unless that quadruped got maimed by an octopus, in which case maybe nature has 3 legs.


    See above, by virtue of being able to formulate such an opinion innately lends it some cosmic validity.
    Only to us.

    Now I am not saying that untested opinions automatically have cosmic validity, there is a distinct difference, it is the capacity of being able form opinions in first place.
    So it's opinion. Again.

    Life tends to do that in general
    Really?

    but consciousness especially.
    And you got this conclusion from a sample of... one. Way to go.

    Hey, I'm not saying that it couldn't all be over in a second, I'm simply pointing out that we should be more positive about it and enjoy the ride.
    Enjoying the ride has nothing to do with our (speculated) importance. And vice versa.

    Well, unprecedented in the known cosmos
    Also incorrect.
    Simply because we haven't found "them" doesn't necessarily mean they're not there.

    OK so, recording data for usage in intellectual extrapolation with the data recording element of the interaction being irrelevant to the results of subatomic particle behavior. Happy?
    I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
    The interaction is what lets us detect what's happening - ergo it's hardly "irrelevant".

    Your unsupported personal opinion then.
    Oops, see my reply to Sculptor.
    RAJ_K likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some View Post
    It's meaningless only for the lost atheists.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUrfrcHaUNg
    Oh the crank is back.
    Pity...
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  39. #38  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    ... If we disappeared tomorrow the universe wouldn't even notice, much less care.
    You do not know this.
    You can not know this.

    Not bad as conjectures go, but, conjecture none the less.
    There is zero evidence to suggest otherwise.
    Hypotheses non fingo...
    "particular propositions are inferred from the phenomena, and afterwards rendered general by induction."
    Ok
    you can call it phread, or phydeaux

    objective statements about the state of the universe at any given moment are without the knowledge of our combines species

    which I would call conjecture, not hypotheses, nor even null hypotheses
    just simple philosophical conjecture

    I do not sense any change in the universe when someone dissapears(of course, i have never actually seen anyone dissapear--so that too, remains in conjecture . ) .
    ergo, i postulate that there is no change
    ok
    maybe I'm blind?

    Perhaps, every thought, every deed, every displaced speck of dust has a profound effect on it's immediate surroundings, changing forever the energy ripples that wash away from the action or item in ways that we cannot imagine.
    I once read that some polynesian sailors could find up current or upwind islands by watching for little counter ripples in the greater waves.
    Is not all energy of the same stuff?
    Just because you do not know how to measure it does not necessitate, nor indicate it's lack of existance.

    .............
    as humble as this may seem
    you really do matter duck

    live with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Some View Post
    It's meaningless only for the lost atheists.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUrfrcHaUNg

    As an atheist I like the following 2 min video a lot.

    Monty Python - The Meaning of Life

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DA2MKuI6fs
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    "particular propositions are inferred from the phenomena, and afterwards rendered general by induction."
    Ok
    you can call it phread, or phydeaux

    objective statements about the state of the universe at any given moment are without the knowledge of our combines species

    which I would call conjecture, not hypotheses, nor even null hypotheses
    just simple philosophical conjecture
    Pfft, it was an observation.

    I do not sense any change in the universe when someone dissapears(of course, i have never actually seen anyone dissapear--so that too, remains in conjecture . ) .
    ergo, i postulate that there is no change
    Nah, you accept that there is no reason to suppose there is a change.

    Perhaps, every thought, every deed, every displaced speck of dust has a profound effect on it's immediate surroundings, changing forever the energy ripples that wash away from the action or item in ways that we cannot imagine.
    I once read that some polynesian sailors could find up current or upwind islands by watching for little counter ripples in the greater waves.
    Is not all energy of the same stuff?
    Just because you do not know how to measure it does not necessitate, nor indicate it's lack of existance.
    Hmm, "energy ripples" that "forever wash away from the action"?
    Such as?

    as humble as this may seem
    you really do matter duck
    On a highly localised severely short-lived (relative to the scale of the universe) level, certainly.
    My cats would starve to death were I not here. My sisters would have more disposable income. &c &c.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    The point is that other forms of nature aren't necessarily capable of formulating such an opinion, but we are which is what gives it its credence.
    The only "credence" that has is what we claim it has.
    Agreed

    Have you heard of the consequences of erudite vernacular utilized irrespective of necessity? Or maybe you just like Latin words...
    Or maybe you've never come acroos such a common and useful phrase before. It's used a great deal on here.
    You're sat in front of a computer, with the entire internet accesible from it. Avail yourself of it, get an education.
    Right, because I always know the etymology of words that I know nothing about.

    Oooo I didn't say the universe, I said nature.
    Oh right. Because the universe isn't nature.
    I'm not assigning universal attributes because of one specific form of existence. All things are part of the universe and their existence is facilitated by the nature of the universe, but that relationship is mostly one of causality and not some sort of mirrored representation. So to say that a specific type of nature has 4 legs because of the universe is accurate, to say that the universe must have 4 legs because some sub-type of existence also does is ridiculous.

    And absolutely nature has 4 legs, like when it's a quadruped, unless that quadruped got maimed by an octopus, in which case maybe nature has 3 legs.
    See above, by virtue of being able to formulate such an opinion innately lends it some cosmic validity.
    Only to us
    .
    Now I am not saying that untested opinions automatically have cosmic validity, there is a distinct difference, it is the capacity of being able form opinions in first place.
    So it's opinion. Again.
    A conscious opinion yes, because most things in this universe aren't afforded that privilege.

    Life tends to do that in general
    Really?
    All life manipulates matter and energy to its own end - survival.

    but consciousness especially.
    And you got this conclusion from a sample of... one. Way to go.
    How about the human race then? If some asteroid comes at us from outer space we may blow that sh*t up with an atom bomb saving all life on the planet! Any you don't think that we're a great species?

    Hey, I'm not saying that it couldn't all be over in a second, I'm simply pointing out that we should be more positive about it and enjoy the ride.
    Enjoying the ride has nothing to do with our (speculated) importance. And vice versa.
    It does have to do with quality of life though. This thread is not really about our importance in the universe but whether life has meaning. It is hard to find better meaning in life than enjoying it.

    Well, unprecedented in the known cosmos
    Also incorrect.
    Simply because we haven't found "them" doesn't necessarily mean they're not there.
    It also doesn't necessarily mean that they are there. It does necessarily mean that we don't know.

    OK so, recording data for usage in intellectual extrapolation with the data recording element of the interaction being irrelevant to the results of subatomic particle behavior. Happy?
    I have no idea what you're trying to say here.
    The interaction is what lets us detect what's happening - ergo it's hardly "irrelevant".
    Because when they ran the recording device without looking at the results it acted as though there was no recording. The results only changed when conscious intelligence was interested in the results..

    Your unsupported personal opinion then.
    Oops, see my reply to Sculptor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by S1(mpl)-E View Post
    Right, because I always know the etymology of words that I know nothing about.
    You don't need toknow the etymology.
    What you do is type those exact words into Google...

    I'm not assigning universal attributes because of one specific form of existence. All things are part of the universe and their existence is facilitated by the nature of the universe, but that relationship is mostly one of causality and not some sort of mirrored representation. So to say that a specific type of nature has 4 legs because of the universe is accurate, to say that the universe must have 4 legs because some sub-type of existence also does is ridiculous.
    And, equally, to say that the universe is conscious because some sub-type of existence also does is ridiculous.

    All life manipulates matter and energy to its own end - survival.
    Which is not the same as "elevating itself above the rest of nature".

    How about the human race then? If some asteroid comes at us from outer space we may blow that sh*t up with an atom bomb saving all life on the planet! Any you don't think that we're a great species?
    You're not following the argument, are you?

    It does have to do with quality of life though. This thread is not really about our importance in the universe but whether life has meaning. It is hard to find better meaning in life than enjoying it
    Ah, okay. A change of tack.

    It also doesn't necessarily mean that they are there. It does necessarily mean that we don't know.
    Agreed. In which case someone was wrong to state - unprecedented in the cosmos.

    Because when they ran the recording device without looking at the results it acted as though there was no recording. The results only changed when conscious intelligence was interested in the results.
    Link/ source please. This contradicts everything I've seen on the subject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post




    Perhaps, every thought, every deed, every displaced speck of dust has a profound effect on it's immediate surroundings, changing forever the energy ripples that wash away from the action or item in ways that we cannot imagine.
    I once read that some polynesian sailors could find up current or upwind islands by watching for little counter ripples in the greater waves.
    Is not all energy of the same stuff?
    Just because you do not know how to measure it does not necessitate, nor indicate it's lack of existance.
    Hmm, "energy ripples" that "forever wash away from the action"?
    Such as? .
    everything seems to be an energy emitter, or blocker
    In the greater universe, we infer that which we cannot see by the way light bends around it.

    Did you know that Bucky Fuller liked to think of himself as a trim tab;
    with the philosophy that even small, low energy changes in a trim tab can turn a mighty ship.

    Of course, some who think themselves trim tabs, are just barnacles attached to the hull.

    and I do not know which is which.
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    Yes, we/ everything emits energy to some extent, but how far can it propagate before getting lost in the background noise?
    For a lot of the radiation/ energy we emit I'd suggest our atmosphere does a pretty good job of insulating the rest of the universe from it.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    [/quote]Which is not the same as "elevating itself above the rest of nature".[/quote]
    You're not following the argument, are you?
    You know, I feel like my personal form of existence is fundamentally better than that of a rock's. Perhaps you don't feel like you are better than a rock. So I'll tell you what, I'll have it my way and you can have it your way.

    Link/ source please. This contradicts everything I've seen on the subject.
    Lecture 1 | Modern Physics: Quantum Mechanics (Stanford) - YouTube
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Timestamp please.
    I'm not sitting through nearly two hours of video to find something you may have misinterpreted.
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    1) Life is a random meaningless sidetrack of the universe
    2) Life is the very purpose of the universe

    I find number 2 to be more logical and reasonable.

    But if number 1 turns out to be truth... the Monty Python song "Always look on the bright side of life" is darn good wisdom.
    Last edited by markashley; April 21st, 2013 at 06:53 PM. Reason: nothing important
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  49. #48  
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    1) Life is a random meaningless sidetrack of the universe
    2) Life is the very purpose of the universe

    I find number 2 to be more logical and reasonable.

    But if number 1 turns out to be truth... the Monty Python song is darn good wisdom.
    Ooh, "more logical"?
    Please, lay out this logic for us.

    "Reasonable"?
    Because you like the idea?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    1) Life is a random meaningless sidetrack of the universe
    2) Life is the very purpose of the universe

    I find number 2 to be more logical and reasonable.

    But if number 1 turns out to be truth... the Monty Python song is darn good wisdom.
    Ooh, "more logical"?
    Please, lay out this logic for us.

    "Reasonable"?
    Because you like the idea?
    Dywyddyr: I am about the most skeptical, atheistic, scientifically minded persons here. I cheer your arguments against the non-scientific religious believers. But, I am merely stating that, although I do not know the answer, my formal training in biology leads me to an appreciation of it's wonders and the very real possibility that life is the purpose (not of a specific man-made religion... but of a greater purpose that we are not aware of).
    Last edited by markashley; April 21st, 2013 at 07:12 PM. Reason: minor typo
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  51. #50  
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I cheer your arguments against the non-scientific religious believers. But, I am merely stating that, although I do not know the answer, my formal training in biology leads me to an appreciation of it's wonders and the very real possibility that life is the purpose (not of a specific man-made religion... but of a greater purpose that we are no aware of).
    I agree with this.
    Right up to the part where you say "and the very real possibility that life is the purpose..."
    A feeling/ belief 1/ idea/ whatever is one thing, but you stated "I find number 2 to be more logical".
    Could you run through the chain of logic that led you to this conclusion?

    1 Given the proviso that "belief" doesn't necessarily imply "rigidly held faith".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I cheer your arguments against the non-scientific religious believers. But, I am merely stating that, although I do not know the answer, my formal training in biology leads me to an appreciation of it's wonders and the very real possibility that life is the purpose (not of a specific man-made religion... but of a greater purpose that we are no aware of).
    I agree with this.
    Right up to the part where you say "and the very real possibility that life is the purpose..."
    A feeling/ belief 1/ idea/ whatever is one thing, but you stated "I find number 2 to be more logical".
    Could you run through the chain of logic that led you to this conclusion?

    1 Given the proviso that "belief" doesn't necessarily imply "rigidly held faith".
    Indeed, I don't like the word "belief". Everything has a degree of uncertainty and belief insinuates certainty.

    I want to state that life may indeed be a random sidetrack and most people "believe" that life is planned because it is a warm and fuzzy notion. However, my point is that although life may have manifested randomly, I think there is a chance (perhaps more than 50%) that life is so wonderful, that the logic of Occam's razor points towards life as a purpose rather than an accident... something that 21st century science has yet to discover.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I think there is a chance (perhaps more than 50%) that life is so wonderful, that the logic of Occam's razor points towards life as a purpose rather than an accident... something that 21st century science has yet to discover.
    Occams Razor refers to the simplest of two explanations, not the more aesthetically pleasing.
    Believing it has some unknown purpose implies an intelligence or a designer or both- none of which is the simplest explanation but are warm and fuzzy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I think there is a chance (perhaps more than 50%) that life is so wonderful, that the logic of Occam's razor points towards life as a purpose rather than an accident... something that 21st century science has yet to discover.
    Occams Razor refers to the simplest of two explanations, not the more aesthetically pleasing.
    Believing it has some unknown purpose implies an intelligence or a designer or both- none of which is the simplest explanation but are warm and fuzzy.
    I disagree.

    Before I state my reasoning I should like to say that I think it is entirely possible that life is a random chance event.

    However, the notion that conscious thought developed completely by chance seems to be, perhaps, the less simple choice if you consider the alternative that there is something going on unknown to current scientific understanding. What that answer may be - I will not begin to pretend to have an answer.

    In other words, just as I criticize religious fundamentalists for being overly arrogant, I would suggest a humble attitude before concluding that random biochemical reactions are the only answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I think there is a chance (perhaps more than 50%) that life is so wonderful, that the logic of Occam's razor points towards life as a purpose rather than an accident... something that 21st century science has yet to discover.
    Occams Razor refers to the simplest of two explanations, not the more aesthetically pleasing.
    Believing it has some unknown purpose implies an intelligence or a designer or both- none of which is the simplest explanation but are warm and fuzzy.
    I disagree.

    Before I state my reasoning I should like to say that I think it is entirely possible that life is a random chance event.

    However, the notion that conscious thought developed completely by chance seems to be, perhaps, the less simple choice if you consider the alternative that there is something going on unknown to current scientific understanding. What that answer may be - I will not begin to pretend to have an answer.

    In other words, just as I criticize religious fundamentalists for being overly arrogant, I would suggest a humble attitude before concluding that random biochemical reactions are the only answer.
    Are you disagreeing with what Occam's Razor states or are you disagreeing with what you perceive to be the simplest answer?

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    My understanding of logic involved is that you should choose the simplest answer.

    For example, if you see a UFO, the simpler answer is that it is an earth-based military test flight (not an alien air force from the other side of the universe).

    Thus, my argument is that something as complicated as a human brain randomly existing is not simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    My understanding of logic involved is that you should choose the simplest answer.

    For example, if you see a UFO, the simpler answer is that it is a military test flight (not an alien air force from the other side of the universe).

    Thus, my argument is that something as complicated as a human brain randomly existing is not simple.
    Then you don't understand evolution and just how sloppy it actually is. Ever hear the expression, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Even in complete and utter chaos sometimes things can actually work. So out of billions of mutations that take place over time, sometimes one is right.

    Now consider this, if an intelligent designer, an ALL KNOWING GOD created us, what's up with all the trial and error?
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Thus, my argument is that something as complicated as a human brain randomly existing is not simple.
    By itself, maybe but you're ignoring/neglecting all the brains below it that led up to it. Frankly, I think you're being overly impressed by the human brain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Now consider this, if an intelligent designer, an ALL KNOWING GOD created us, what's up with all the trial and error?
    As an atheist (and someone who accepts biological evolution), I don't consider a God (at least in the popular understanding of the term) a feasible possibility. I am merely suggesting that 21st century science is incomplete. This notion should be agreeable with most clear thinking persons.

    Again, I feel like I am playing devils advocate because I am nearly 50% convinced that life did originate completely randomly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly
    Frankly, I think you're being overly impressed by the human brain.
    Considering the fact that I am one... perhaps some bias has been manifested. Although, I could use all the complicated mathematical laws of nature as an example of the complicated nature of the universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    As an atheist (and someone who accepts biological evolution), I don't consider a God (at least in the popular understanding of the term) a feasible possibility. I am merely suggesting that 21st century science is incomplete. This notion should be agreeable with most clear thinking persons.
    A lack of a scientific explanation does not provide support for the extreme explanation.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Although, I could use all the complicated mathematical laws of nature as an example of the complicated nature of the universe.
    Exactly, which you could use to say, "The watch implies a watchmaker." The thing is; complexity as a result of emergence does not imply a maker. It implies emergence. Emergence is observed and verified as well as verifiable- your ideas are not. That means that emergence is simpler.
    Period.
    Now, if you choose to believe- that is fine. But your belief is not in what is simpler. Do not claim that it is anything else than what it is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Indeed, I don't like the word "belief". Everything has a degree of uncertainty and belief insinuates certainty.
    Belief insinuates certainty?
    I believe you're wrong on that, but I'm open to correction,

    I want to state that life may indeed be a random sidetrack and most people "believe" that life is planned because it is a warm and fuzzy notion. However, my point is that although life may have manifested randomly, I think there is a chance (perhaps more than 50%) that life is so wonderful, that the logic of Occam's razor points towards life as a purpose rather than an accident... something that 21st century science has yet to discover.
    So, not only no actual logic, but also a more-than-somewhat-nebulous appeal to "something yet to be discovered".
    And you're wrong in bringing Occam onto on your side: your "explanation" requires ADDING something.
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; April 22nd, 2013 at 11:07 PM.
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    "Matter has capacity to develop conciseness and awareness in itself if it gets certain physical and environmental conditions "
    Both may be viewd much common and same from another point of view.
    Same Matter that has different forms , under different conditions
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    I think that life's meaning can be found in the most important characteristics of life itself.
    1. It is finite.
    2. It is able to reproduce.
    3. It is able to...some kind of metabolism.

    So...life is very old and probably very rare and it had to fight hard fight against countless things (like meteors, clima changes, volcanos, and aggressive lifeforms like humans or viruses) that could have caused it extinction.
    If you'll ask our DNA...they could tell the hell of a story and it probably would suggest that the meaning of life is to struggle on.
    So...based on the characteristics....

    1. Teach us that we should enjoy life...and make the best in the given time. Every life is absolutely unique...this atoms and circumstances will never come together...so (thats how I see it) you have to prove that this gathering was worth existing.

    2. I think we should do something that is beneficial for our kind and helps our set of genes to survive.
    May it be to raise children or to improve the world...(may it be by art, technic or social interactions). This also includes being a part of a society...and keep it running. And even if you don't work...you somehow influence other people...may it be by caring for them or just cheering them up or whatever. So...I guess it is hard to decide what is beneficial for mankind and the rest of life and whats not (in the most cases). I think it's always a mixture of beneficial and harmful things we do (may it be unintentionally or not) but I think you succeded if the beneficial things prevail.

    3. We are able to eat, breathe, look at things etc. So...if this is the case...why don't eat good, breathe clear air, look at nice things.
    So...I think, if we asked a Lion what is the purpose in life...beside defending his kids (in the case of female lions) or fuck a lot of woman (males) it would probably to have good food. Every bacterium looks for the most comfortable place to live in. So...increasing or wellbeing, and this of others is as well a reason to live. Or in easier words...to be happy and make others happy.
    This is also given by nature...because natures (our brains) award is happiness. So...it makes absolute sense to get that award (as long as it doesn't contradicts with the survival of life idea)

    I do realize that all of my three points sound alike...but that is my point...every characteristic of life...points in the same direction.
    And...just to offer a more poetic view on things...may our special purpose in life as humans is to witness how great the universe is.
    Plus I think we as a race can be very proud if we don't end up destroying ourselves and the rest of the planet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Headdresser View Post
    I think that life's meaning can be found in the most important characteristics of life itself.
    1. It is finite.
    2. It is able to reproduce.
    3. It is able to...some kind of metabolism.

    So...life is very old and probably very rare and it had to fight hard fight against countless things (like meteors, clima changes, volcanos, and aggressive lifeforms like humans or viruses) that could have caused it extinction.
    If you'll ask our DNA...they could tell the hell of a story and it probably would suggest that the meaning of life is to struggle on.
    So...based on the characteristics....

    1. Teach us that we should enjoy life...and make the best in the given time. Every life is absolutely unique...this atoms and circumstances will never come together...so (thats how I see it) you have to prove that this gathering was worth existing.

    2. I think we should do something that is beneficial for our kind and helps our set of genes to survive.
    May it be to raise children or to improve the world...(may it be by art, technic or social interactions). This also includes being a part of a society...and keep it running. And even if you don't work...you somehow influence other people...may it be by caring for them or just cheering them up or whatever. So...I guess it is hard to decide what is beneficial for mankind and the rest of life and whats not (in the most cases). I think it's always a mixture of beneficial and harmful things we do (may it be unintentionally or not) but I think you succeded if the beneficial things prevail.

    3. We are able to eat, breathe, look at things etc. So...if this is the case...why don't eat good, breathe clear air, look at nice things.
    So...I think, if we asked a Lion what is the purpose in life...beside defending his kids (in the case of female lions) or fuck a lot of woman (males) it would probably to have good food. Every bacterium looks for the most comfortable place to live in. So...increasing or wellbeing, and this of others is as well a reason to live. Or in easier words...to be happy and make others happy.
    This is also given by nature...because natures (our brains) award is happiness. So...it makes absolute sense to get that award (as long as it doesn't contradicts with the survival of life idea)

    I do realize that all of my three points sound alike...but that is my point...every characteristic of life...points in the same direction.
    And...just to offer a more poetic view on things...may our special purpose in life as humans is to witness how great the universe is.
    Plus I think we as a race can be very proud if we don't end up destroying ourselves and the rest of the planet.
    How do you think life is more than just a characteristic of matter that can take form if certain physical conditions meet
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    Neverfly & Dywyddyr:

    Question: Is your position there is a 100% chance that life is random?

    Before answering, consider the vast amount of scientific knowledge yet undiscovered. Future generations will look at our science as we look at 17th century science. Also consider the discipline of science is, by nature, humble. Scientists question and check each others work (as opposed to the clergy, which is woefully arogant).

    I accept your arguments pertaining to emergence. My hypothesis is not that some God created life a few thousand years ago. My hypothesis is that the very laws of organic chemistry and physics at the start of the big bang may have had something in it yet undiscovered that prefers life.

    Regarding the logic involved: When people say "Jesus walked on water"... I say, the simpler explanation is that it is a legend or folk tale. The idea that the conditions at the instant of the big bang were created randomly and and in such a way that they would randomly derive life seems (as I've said before) very reasonable. But is it so unreasonable to suggest there may be something going on as yet undiscovered?
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Neverfly & Dywyddyr:
    Question: Is your position there is a 100% chance that life is random?
    Try mine if you think it's not...
    Oh.

    I accept your arguments pertaining to emergence. My hypothesis is not that some God created life a few thousand years ago. My hypothesis is that the very laws of organic chemistry and physics at the start of the big bang may have had something in it yet undiscovered that prefers life.
    Not sure what you mean by "prefer". That life is an inevitable consequence from the start or that life was "designed in"?
    The first, sure, the second, not so much.

    But does that (the first one) mean there's a purpose?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Neverfly & Dywyddyr:
    Question: Is your position there is a 100% chance that life is random?
    Try mine if you think it's not...
    Oh.

    I accept your arguments pertaining to emergence. My hypothesis is not that some God created life a few thousand years ago. My hypothesis is that the very laws of organic chemistry and physics at the start of the big bang may have had something in it yet undiscovered that prefers life.
    Not sure what you mean by "prefer". That life is an inevitable consequence from the start or that life was "designed in"?
    The first, sure, the second, not so much.

    But does that (the first one) mean there's a purpose?
    Apologies, but I didn't understand the top answer.

    I am satisfied that you said "not so much" which implies you accept the possibility. I suppose I am suggesting the possibility (not saying with any confidence mind you) that life was more or less part of a broader purpose.

    I hesitate to use the word purpose because it may lump me in with the "intelligent design" crowd. I am merely suggesting a very opaque, unknown, cause of the universe. (Not anything approaching a God)

    The thrust of my argument is that this is such a profound question, we should remain humble and aware that our present scientific knowledge may not be yet advanced enough to make any conclusions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Question: Is your position there is a 100% chance that life is random?
    Your question does not make sense. If you are asking me if I think that it's entirely plausible that life originated without intelligent interference, I would say "yes."
    If you ask which I believe is likelier, I would say that it is more likely that the origin was not intelligently implemented.
    I do not know.
    Unless evidence comes forward to convince me that intelligence brought forth life on Earth, I have no reason to consider it at this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Before answering, consider the vast amount of scientific knowledge yet undiscovered. Future generations will look at our science as we look at 17th century science.
    Broad claim. We do not know the future. I also do not care how they look at us- it has no bearing on your I.D. beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    My hypothesis is that the very laws of organic chemistry and physics at the start of the big bang may have had something in it yet undiscovered that prefers life.
    All the way back to the Big Bang, eh? There were some properties that made a slight preference of matter over anti-matter, too. Now, the Universe is primarily matter.
    Your argument should have the Universe absolutely teeming with life.
    Maybe it is. But until I see evidence of it, I won't claim it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    The idea that the conditions at the instant of the big bang were created randomly and and in such a way that they would randomly derive life seems (as I've said before) very reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    But is it so unreasonable to suggest there may be something going on as yet undiscovered?
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You may maintain your faith in an intelligent designer, waiting for that designer to be discovered, if you choose.
    But citing the Big Bang? That was almost 8,000,000,000 years before the Earth even Existed.
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    Neverfly:

    As much as I love science, dare I say you seem a bit arrogant in your confidence.

    The great Carl Sagan's claim can be turned:

    Random life is an extraordinary claim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Neverfly & Dywyddyr:

    Question: Is your position there is a 100% chance that life is random?

    Before answering, consider the vast amount of scientific knowledge yet undiscovered. Future generations will look at our science as we look at 17th century science. Also consider the discipline of science is, by nature, humble. Scientists question and check each others work (as opposed to the clergy, which is woefully arogant).

    I accept your arguments pertaining to emergence. My hypothesis is not that some God created life a few thousand years ago. My hypothesis is that the very laws of organic chemistry and physics at the start of the big bang may have had something in it yet undiscovered that prefers life.

    Regarding the logic involved: When people say "Jesus walked on water"... I say, the simpler explanation is that it is a legend or folk tale. The idea that the conditions at the instant of the big bang were created randomly and and in such a way that they would randomly derive life seems (as I've said before) very reasonable. But is it so unreasonable to suggest there may be something going on as yet undiscovered?
    My personal belief is that where ever life can exist it will sooner or later. Someday they may know enough to have a law of life. But for now I'm just looking forward to proof that life once lived on Mars, and that may come sooner than any of us think. I am getting excited by the latest NASA reports on that subject.

    Rover: Conditions Once Suited for Life on Mars - NASA Science
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    One word: Arrogance
    Is this your profession? Arrogance, I mean. You know arrogance because you are an avid practitioner of it maybe? An arrogant person wouldn't say they don't know something, as Neverfly and others have. And it takes arrogance to pretend like you aren't pushing ID by simply using different words that mean the same thing. To say that something before the BB "preferred" life, implies an intelligence behind the BB, as well as a design put in place by that intelligence. Do you want to act as if you don't mean a creator, and hope that we are too stupid to know what you are doing? Or are you suggesting that we are an alien lab experiment? An equally baseless belief, btw.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Neverfly:

    As much as I love science, dare I say you seem a bit arrogant.
    You can dare to, but you are the arrogant one thinking you have insight into things not yet discovered, much less supported by a shred of evidence.
    You are the arrogant one claiming that all the biologists and scientists cannot figure out basic origin biology and chemistry, along with emergence.
    You are the arrogant one claiming that a watch implies a watch-maker and implying that anyone that disagrees with you is suffereing bias, mental blocks or otherwise incapable of seeing what you see.

    You best back up off of me, son. You call me arrogant for your folly? I don't think so.
    Let me spell it out for you:
    THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF INTELLIGENT DESIGN. In fact, there is a great deal of evidence that contradicts it and makes that belief quite absurd. Is it arrogant to not place faith in the absurd?
    It is according to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I am satisfied that you said "not so much" which implies you accept the possibility.
    When I said "not so much" I meant it in the same way as I would if someone asked me "Is your cat smart? Smarter than Einstein?" and I'd reply "Sure, and not so much".

    I suppose I am suggesting the possibility (not saying with any confidence mind you) that life was more or less part of a broader purpose.
    I hesitate to use the word purpose because it may lump me in with the "intelligent design" crowd. I am merely suggesting a very opaque, unknown, cause of the universe. (Not anything approaching a God)
    The thrust of my argument is that this is such a profound question, we should remain humble and aware that our present scientific knowledge may not be yet advanced enough to make any conclusions.
    Now here you have me confused. You use the word "purpose" and then say you hesitate to use it.
    So what do you mean?
    Even IF the rise of life was inevitable, and even IF the universe is discovered to be teaming with it, that still doesn't necessarily mean there's a purpose to life.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Random life is an extraordinary claim.
    Your appalling ignorance about chemistry and emergence does not magically validate this claim.

    You're vastly outnumbered by educated people, kid. Get over it.
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    much like the word "GOD"
    now the phrase "INTELLIGENT DESIGN"
    also has unasailable individual precognitions, fantasies, and fairy tales

    trash the silly words and phrases and get to the meat of the matter
    smash the bones and suck out the life giving marrow

    recognize that your preconcepts are blinders

    hellmanidon't mean to lecture but every once in awhile it seems the only apropos response
    add in a coupla whiskeys and I'm lucky to find the right keys
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Random life is an extraordinary claim.
    Your appalling ignorance about chemistry and emergence does not magically validate this claim.

    You're vastly outnumbered by educated people, kid. Get over it.
    I have degrees in chemistry and biology.

    I started out this argument stating I was an atheist acting as a devil's advocate because I am 50% in agreement with your position.

    You guys need to seriously chill out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I have degrees in chemistry and biology.
    This demonstrates exatly why "Appeal to Authority" is a fallacy.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I started out this argument stating I was an atheist acting as a devil's advocate because I am 50% in agreement with your position.

    You guys need to seriously chill out.
    Your indecisiveness is not anyone elses issue. You were promoting that the watch implies a watchmaker.
    Period.
    Backpeddling and declaring that everyone else is hyper-reactive is nonsense. If you don't like having your Bad Science debunked- don't promote it.
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    much like the word "GOD"
    now the phrase INTELLIGENT DESIGN
    also has unasailable individual precognitions

    trash the silly words and phrases and get to the meat of the matter
    smash the bones and suck out the life giving marrow
    ...............................
    it's 9 pm (2100 hrs) here duck
    when do you sleep?
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    You guys make me want to side with the intelligent design people.

    Post script: which I will not do
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    You guys make me want to side with the intelligent design people.

    Post script: which I will not do
    curious
    what, exactly, does that phrase (intelligent design) mean to you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    You guys make me want to side with the intelligent design people.
    According to your posts, you seem to have already done so. You claim to hold degrees in Biology and Chemistry, yet you didn't know what Emergence is? Yet, you claim that emergence is an extraordinary claim compared to I.D.? You claimed the watch implies a maker?
    You hesitated to say that life has a purpose, but that hesitation did not stop you. Then, you called others arrogant for saying that seems less likely than the simpler properties of emergence.

    Yeah, we're done here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    You guys make me want to side with the intelligent design people.

    Post script: which I will not do
    You already have. Denial doesn't stop that from being true.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    it's 9 pm (2100 hrs) here duck
    when do you sleep?
    It's only 3:13 AM here.
    Sleep is over-rated: your brain stops working rationally when you sleep.
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    sleep is needed for sanity
    really'really'really

    pleasant dreams dadio
    ...................................
    i had a friend in the army who didn't like to sleep, saying it was much like death--------but when i told everyone to take a break, he would almost instantly nod off---lost track of him somewhere in the central highlands and never heard from him again---------------RIP dan munter(?)
    I'd wake up in the middle of the night and see him sitting in his rack smoking marlboro 100s. Helped me sleep knowing that he didn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    You guys make me want to side with the intelligent design people.
    According to your posts, you seem to have already done so. You claim to hold degrees in Biology and Chemistry, yet you didn't know what Emergence is? Yet, you claim that emergence is an extraordinary claim compared to I.D.? You claimed the watch implies a maker?
    You hesitated to say that life has a purpose, but that hesitation did not stop you. Then, you called others arrogant for saying that seems less likely than the simpler properties of emergence.

    Yeah, we're done here.
    I claimed I accepted emergence.

    I claimed I am undecided regarding life being completely 100% chance. (For the love of god, I give it just as much weight as not being by chance for crying out loud).

    I do have said degrees (B.A. chemistry and B.S. biology from University of South Florida). The great thing that science taught me was that everything has a degree of uncertainty and that a humble attitude is usually wise.

    Regarding my claim that you are arrogant... I realized immediately after posting that it was too antagonizing and farther than I would have wished given more thought. Thus, I edited it to say it was "a bit" arrogant.
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    Markashley,

    Consider this. Is it possible that you, a human being, have committed murder? I am not asking you if you have but is it possible? I mean, humans have been known to do that from time to time and you are human.

    Is it possible, that you have a huge hairy wart on your head. Be sure to consider this from the perspective of those who are not you. Those of us on this forum. We cannot see you. We cannot measure you. We can ask you questions, but you can lie in your answers or refuse to respond. We have very limited resources for testing any of your responses. And we cannot go into the past and watch your every move. So would you not agree that the possibility that you have at least once committed murder and have a hairy wart on your forehead, is an actual possibility?

    The same could be true for me, or anyone else on this forum. But does that possibility justify the belief that it is true? Does that possibility justify starting a grand investigation to find evidence to support the possibility and increase the probability of it?

    How would you feel, if the police showed up at your door and took you in for questioning and you were held on suspicion of murder for months while the police looked for evidence of a murder that you committed? Without even a body to suggest that a murder even occurred? They only have a dead body that shows no signs of foul play. And appears to have died of natural causes (old age). There is no evidence that the deceased ever even crossed paths with you in their life, but because someone suggested to the police that it is possible that you did it, they lock you up and doggedly hunt for a way to credit you with the murder, as well as a hairy wart on your head.

    This is what you are doing when you imagine any scenario you can to support the possibility of something that is merely possible but highly unlikely. Scientists do not say there is absolutely without a doubt, NO GOD. They say there absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support the existence of a god, or intelligent designer, or a BB preference towards life, whatever you want to call it in order to pretend you are not a believer of ID.

    Aren't you glad our criminal justice system doesn't do science the way you do?
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    You guys make me want to side with the intelligent design people.

    Post script: which I will not do
    You already have. Denial doesn't stop that from being true.
    Dear lord, I have stated multiple times that I am little more than 50% in agreement with such a notion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I claimed I accepted emergence.
    "Ok, I see your point and your argument, so I accept it, but I'll go ahead and keep telling you how arrogantly wrong you are anyway."
    Right. Got it. My mistake.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I claimed I am undecided regarding life being completely 100% chance.
    I'd say it appears 70/30... Claiming that emergence is extraordinary when it's just basic chemistry... Claiming that our existence implies a design... Claiming that our origins go all the way back to the Big Bang Event... You went far above and beyond.
    Now, I do not disbelieve you when you say you're undecided. I do disbelieve you when you say it's 50/50.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I do have said degrees (B.A. chemistry and B.S. biology from University of South Florida). The great thing that science taught me was that everything has a degree of uncertainty and that a humble attitude is usually wise.
    You have a degree of uncertainty. Got it.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Regarding my claim that you are arrogant... I realized immediately after posting that it was too antagonizing and farther than I would have wished given more thought. Thus, I edited it to say it was "a bit" arrogant.
    Thank you. It made a huge difference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    You guys make me want to side with the intelligent design people.

    Post script: which I will not do
    You already have. Denial doesn't stop that from being true.
    Dear lord, I have stated multiple times that I am little more than 50% in agreement with such a notion.
    Very well then, let it not offend you if I am little more than 50% in agreement with the notion that you have committed murder in your lifetime and have a huge hairy wart on your head.
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    Markashley,

    Consider this. Is it possible that you, a human being, have committed murder? I am not asking you if you have but is it possible? I mean, humans have been known to do that from time to time and you are human.

    Is it possible, that you have a huge hairy wart on your head. Be sure to consider this from the perspective of those who are not you. Those of us on this forum. We cannot see you. We cannot measure you. We can ask you questions, but you can lie in your answers or refuse to respond. We have very limited resources for testing any of your responses. And we cannot go into the past and watch your every move. So would you not agree that the possibility that you have at least once committed murder and have a hairy wart on your forehead, is an actual possibility?

    The same could be true for me, or anyone else on this forum. But does that possibility justify the belief that it is true? Does that possibility justify starting a grand investigation to find evidence to support the possibility and increase the probability of it?

    How would you feel, if the police showed up at your door and took you in for questioning and you were held on suspicion of murder for months while the police looked for evidence of a murder that you committed? Without even a body to suggest that a murder even occurred? They only have a dead body that shows no signs of foul play. And appears to have died of natural causes (old age). There is no evidence that the deceased ever even crossed paths with you in their life, but because someone suggested to the police that it is possible that you did it, they lock you up and doggedly hunt for a way to credit you with the murder, as well as a hairy wart on your head.

    This is what you are doing when you imagine any scenario you can to support the possibility of something that is merely possible but highly unlikely. Scientists do not say there is absolutely without a doubt, NO GOD. They say there absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support the existence of a god, or intelligent designer, or a BB preference towards life, whatever you want to call it in order to pretend you are not a believer of ID.

    Aren't you glad our criminal justice system doesn't do science the way you do?
    I am virtually positive there is no god or god-like being.

    I understand your argument, but I am suggesting (indeed, not even stating it is true) that there is an answer between the two extremes (an all-seeing god...and complete randomness).
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    I am a little more than 50% sure that I am a walrus. Or is that a human? Something like that. Either way, I'm pretty sure that I'm not uncertainly certain about it. I'm decidedly positioned right in the middle.
    All I can say is, my gut says it's a definite maybe.

    After-all, you cannot prove that I am not a walrus.

    You keep using this word, "random." I do not think it means what you think it means.
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    I am a strong enough person to not hide and say I am 50% sure when I am really 70%. I think you guys need to go to a christian forum and argue with people who really believe in intelligent design and not someone who is merely suggesting we don't yet, in this century, have all the answers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    and not someone who is merely suggesting we don't yet, in this century, have all the answers.
    As well as claiming that emergence is extraordinary, that it's simpler to think that life was designed in some fashion than that life developed through basic chemistry... As well as claiming the "Random Factor." As well as claiming the watch implies a watchmaker argument.

    Silly me. When you said all of that stuff, I had no idea that you were merely suggesting that a lack of future discoveries that might maybe change our minds about the current evidence makes any of that other stuff you said make sense.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    I am a strong enough person to not hide and say I am 50% sure when I am really 70%. I think you guys need to go to a christian forum and argue with people who really believe in intelligent design and not someone who is merely suggesting we don't yet, in this century, have all the answers.
    why should we go there, when they come here and tell us science, which is backed up be evidence rather than just feel good fairy tales, is wrong. And how is it that you keep ignoring that none of us have said we have all the answers? We have only said there is no evidence for ID. which is still creation, it is not somewhere in between. Either we were created or we weren't. And at this time there is no evidence suggesting that we were created by anything intelligent at the very least. Trial and error suggests, random guesses at best. I have not come across any reputable scientist that claims to have any idea what happened before the BB or what caused it. Only believers have the nerve to even suggest any possibilities. There is no humanly way of knowing and we have been stating that all this time. Why you pretend that we are stating anything other than that is a mystery to me.
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    Just for the Record... The Lambda CDM model has Nothing To Do with the origin and evolution of life on Earth. (Yes, there is a connection considering that life developed in the Universe that was spawned from the BBE- but it is simply irrelevant for this discussion.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Question: Is your position there is a 100% chance that life is random?
    Your question does not make sense. If you are asking me if I think that it's entirely plausible that life originated without intelligent interference, I would say "yes."
    If you ask which I believe is likelier, I would say that it is more likely that the origin was not intelligently implemented.
    I do not know.
    Unless evidence comes forward to convince me that intelligence brought forth life on Earth, I have no reason to consider it at this time.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Before answering, consider the vast amount of scientific knowledge yet undiscovered. Future generations will look at our science as we look at 17th century science.
    Broad claim. We do not know the future. I also do not care how they look at us- it has no bearing on your I.D. beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    My hypothesis is that the very laws of organic chemistry and physics at the start of the big bang may have had something in it yet undiscovered that prefers life.
    All the way back to the Big Bang, eh? There were some properties that made a slight preference of matter over anti-matter, too. Now, the Universe is primarily matter.
    Your argument should have the Universe absolutely teeming with life.
    Maybe it is. But until I see evidence of it, I won't claim it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    The idea that the conditions at the instant of the big bang were created randomly and and in such a way that they would randomly derive life seems (as I've said before) very reasonable.
    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    But is it so unreasonable to suggest there may be something going on as yet undiscovered?
    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You may maintain your faith in an intelligent designer, waiting for that designer to be discovered, if you choose.
    But citing the Big Bang? That was almost 8,000,000,000 years before the Earth even Existed.
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    Here's the quick answer; hold your hand in the fire. You will quickly realize that life is important and so is your hands. About 25 generations ago people were afraid to sail on the oceans because they would fall off of the edge of the world. They were limited by the world wide concept that the earth was flat. There is a similar limiting concept in the world today; that there does not exist a mental or spiritual universe only a physical universe. The concepts of love, courage, ethics were devised by the cells to pretend that someone "existed" within the being. Of course within each cell something had to pretend that the cells had entities that could develop concepts like love and such. If you go down the structure of the cell and its parts this theory becomes impossibly complicated. Just like the origination of life the Theory of Evolution falls apart with the complication.
    And then take the other side of the argument. Why do you care? If you are just a chemical reaction with no reality within, you don't exist. You have never existed. Might as well keep your hand in the fire. But you know that you are a being. You do have reality within. If you really want to know read my book, pdf for free "Little Book Open - Securing a Narrow Clear Passage to the Future" use Google to search.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidAuthor View Post
    Here's the quick answer; hold your hand in the fire. You will quickly realize that life is important and so is your hands.
    Huh?

    About 25 generations ago people were afraid to sail on the oceans because they would fall off of the edge of the world. They were limited by the world wide concept that the earth was flat.
    Wrong. We've known the Earth was "spherical" for >2,000 years.

    There is a similar limiting concept in the world today; that there does not exist a mental or spiritual universe only a physical universe.
    Really?
    What do you mean by "mental universe"?
    What evidence do you have for a "spiritual universe"?

    The concepts of love, courage, ethics were devised by the cells to pretend that someone "existed" within the being. Of course within each cell something had to pretend that the cells had entities that could develop concepts like love and such.
    Wild speculation.

    the Theory of Evolution falls apart with the complication.
    Nonsense.

    If you are just a chemical reaction with no reality within, you don't exist. You have never existed.
    Complete rubbish.

    If you really want to know read my book, pdf for free "Little Book Open - Securing a Narrow Clear Passage to the Future" use Google to search.
    I think you've become somewhat confused here. Reading your book isn't going to help anyone know anything.
    Except, perhaps, that reading certain books is a waste of time.
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    Dywyddyr: don't read it. My answer is for RAJ_K who asked a real question that many people are wondering about. If you think life is meaningless then you give up on life. You become a critical spirit that pokes holes in everything and everyone's ideas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidAuthor View Post
    Dywyddyr: don't read it.
    You appear to have misunderstood my comment.

    My answer is for RAJ_K who asked a real question that many people are wondering about. If you think life is meaningless then you give up on life. You become a critical spirit that pokes holes in everything and everyone's ideas.
    I especially poke holes in nonsensical, specious, unprovable, unsupported wild ideas and misinformation. Such as presented in your book.
    But my life isn't meaningless.
    Plus, like I said, whatever you think is in that book, there certainly isn't the answer to the question posed.

    I also note that you've failed to answer my questions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by markashley View Post
    Neverfly & Dywyddyr:

    Question: Is your position there is a 100% chance that life is random?

    Before answering, consider the vast amount of scientific knowledge yet undiscovered. Future generations will look at our science as we look at 17th century science. Also consider the discipline of science is, by nature, humble. Scientists question and check each others work (as opposed to the clergy, which is woefully arogant).

    I accept your arguments pertaining to emergence. My hypothesis is not that some God created life a few thousand years ago. My hypothesis is that the very laws of organic chemistry and physics at the start of the big bang may have had something in it yet undiscovered that prefers life.

    Regarding the logic involved: When people say "Jesus walked on water"... I say, the simpler explanation is that it is a legend or folk tale. The idea that the conditions at the instant of the big bang were created randomly and and in such a way that they would randomly derive life seems (as I've said before) very reasonable. But is it so unreasonable to suggest there may be something going on as yet undiscovered?
    I also have some these type of feelings.
    Overall Life is just a "characteristic of matter to develop conciseness and thinking power if it get certain physical conditions"
    It is a characteristic of dead matter
    If matter gets certain physical conditions , it has ability to create life in itself.
    We can not give other hypothesis as it is true as per present knowledge.
    We can not give the name of God or intellectual object as it would be just an illogical imagination
    Yes it is just my personal view that life is very strange,surprising and creates many doubt
    personally for me as it is difficult to believable how awareness is possible in space
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidAuthor View Post
    Dywyddyr: don't read it. My answer is for RAJ_K who asked a real question that many people are wondering about. If you think life is meaningless then you give up on life. You become a critical spirit that pokes holes in everything and everyone's ideas.
    He isn't poking holes, he is just pointing out the ones that are there. Would you prefer he allow leaky ships to go out to sea, or would you prefer to know there are leaks so you can fix them?
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