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Thread: Is empirical knowledge afforded by science the final frontier ?

  1. #1 Is empirical knowledge afforded by science the final frontier ? 
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    Is empirical knowledge afforded by science the final frontier of attainable knowledge by man?


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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    No.


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    What methods are there that will help mankind gain knowledge?
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Modelling.
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    Forum Radioactive Isotope cosmictraveler's Avatar
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    Theoretical physics might be one.
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Modelling.
    Yeah, I'm pretty good looking, but I really don't see what that has to do with it...
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmictraveler View Post
    Theoretical physics might be one.
    But that is (should be) always tested by experiment. Othweise it is an idea, not "knowledge".

    On the other hand, empirical knowledge afforded by science will never tell us which is the greatest movie or why Rodin's The Kiss is so powerful.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Modelling.
    Yeah, I'm pretty good looking, but I really don't see what that has to do with it...
    Ok, then. Yodelling.
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    I looked in the Oxford Dictionary the meaning of the word 'empirical'. It defines this word as follows :- " based on, concerned with , or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic". My question is:- Can man's dream- sleep state experience , where man experiences a dream world & regards that dream world as real while undergoing that dream sleep state experience , be regarded as empirical from his dream sleep state point of view ?
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    So, essentially, what you're asking is "While dreaming can that dream be regarded as valid from the point of view of the dream?"
    The answer, of course, is yes.
    But that does NOT mean the dream is valid in any other context whatsoever.

    What's your point here?
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Dywyddyr:- Thank you for your response. Do you think, empirical experience of dream sleep state of man can be helpful in solving the puzzle of wakeful state experience of man? I thank you once again for your response.
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    Genius Duck Moderator Dywyddyr's Avatar
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    Until you define "the puzzle of wakeful state experience of man" then the question is impossible to answer.
    I will, however, repeat my previous comment: But that does NOT mean the dream is valid in any other context whatsoever.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Until you define "the puzzle of wakeful state experience of man" then the question is impossible to answer.I will, however, repeat my previous comment: But that does NOT mean the dream is valid in any other context whatsoever.
    I thank you for you direct answer.
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chandragupta View Post
    I looked in the Oxford Dictionary the meaning of the word 'empirical'. It defines this word as follows :- " based on, concerned with , or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic". My question is:- Can man's dream- sleep state experience , where man experiences a dream world & regards that dream world as real while undergoing that dream sleep state experience , be regarded as empirical from his dream sleep state point of view ?
    Note the word "verifiable" in that definition. Science relies on evidence that is repeatable and consistent. Not attributes associated with the dream state. Random anecdotes of weird things don't count as evidence of anything much.

    Also, I rarely remember dreams, but when I do I nearly always know I am dreaming.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Thank you Strange for your response. When you state:' When I dream, I nearly always know I am dreaming'. Could I ask you as to the dream you are referring to, is it you your dream- sleep state dream or is it your day dream? Thanks once again.
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    I mean when I am sleeping.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    I mean when I am sleeping.
    Thanks for the clarification. This is not the usual experience. Usually dream sleep state dreams are accepted as real by the dream sleep state awareness while it is in dream sleep state. It is only when awareness re- enters its fully awakened state, it realises that it's dream state dream was merely a dream. But thank you once again for your clarification.
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    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chandragupta View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. This is not the usual experience.
    So I gather. I put it down to the fact that I am very rarely aware of dreaming (a few times a year?) so when I am aware of it it, it is because my sleep has been disturbed. Perhaps also influenced by a brief interest in lucid dreaming when I was young (when I learnt how to take control of my dreams).

    Usually dream sleep state dreams are accepted as real by the dream sleep state awareness while it is in dream sleep state.
    I really hope you are not trying to suggest that this puts dreams on the same footing as things we perceive when fully awake.
    ei incumbit probatio qui dicit, non qui negat
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    No.
    Thank you. Can I trouble you to enumerate other means of acquiring knowledge to understand this universe which could be accepted as much rigorous as empirical knowledge afforded by science? If you consider this question inappropriate then please ignore it. My purpose of asking this question is merely to learn & there is no other motive my part.
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    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
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    Empircal knowledge is limited inasmuch as it is constrained by the range of observations possible.

    You have now moved the goalposts. You are now asking for knowledge could be readily accepted. You are according knowledge that can be readily accepted a higher weighting or significance than knowledge which is derived from personal contemplation, drug induced ecstacy, or logical argument. That is restriction I did not consider when giving my answer.
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Galt View Post
    Empircal knowledge is limited inasmuch as it is constrained by the range of observations possible. You have now moved the goalposts. You are now asking for knowledge could be readily accepted. You are according knowledge that can be readily accepted a higher weighting or significance than knowledge which is derived from personal contemplation, drug induced ecstacy, or logical argument. That is restriction I did not consider when giving my answer.
    I did not realise when I asked the question that it would amount to 'moving the goalpost'. But now I do realise. Is there no place where simpleton like me get some breathing space intellectually? But I must thank you for pointing out my intellectual inadequacy.
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