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Thread: The Key

  1. #1 The Key 
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    Hi,I知 glad in here to show something for you
    I知 chinese,my english isn稚 good and I am learning now.so forgive my word is too poor to explain all I want to say please.but I will say something is very simple and the cue aroud us.just we always ignore it.you can use it unlock many 電oors of the new world.
    First question:背ho am I?.the only answer is memory in our brain.not your face,your gene,your name.just is your memory.the result is very important beacause it is the basic key to a series of 電oors.if you have any question about it ,you can ask youself every morning when you wake up 努ho are you.and you can image that if you lost your memory or put another痴 memory in your brain then 努ho are you.
    If you accept that,you can check this link: Psychic computer that could plug into brain and show thoughts on screen is developed | Mail Online, this technology is rough now,just like computer in 1940s.but we can suppose that the technology may read much my memory in my brain 100 years or 200 years later.these can identify who I am enough.(most of our memory is not use to us.we forget many things every day)
    So 努ho am I and 杜ind-read,we can open a door of immortal.
    This is the first key.


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    The brain is the seat of your identity as a functional human being. I always thought it would be interesting if I could record my dreams.


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    nice,just like this ,your brain is the paper.your memory is the paint.and follow drawing you will be change in your whole life.so "who am I"just depend on the memory draw something in my brain.
    人的记忆也是如此.gif
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    the picture is GIF.not JPG.please to click it.we like the GIF.we don't know what is it in begin(our infant age),and we maybe realize who I am later,but following the time elapse,we rediscover who I am over and over.if time is infinite,"who am I"will change forever.
    Last edited by puzzler; December 21st, 2012 at 01:59 AM.
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    Nice Freudian connection there... the base of the brain. I guess if you want to really penetrate this topic you must open your.... mind.
    The topic can go pretty deep, though.

    Thanks for keeping us abreast of these developments.
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  7. #6  
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    no.you don't need open your brain .please check the link:Psychic computer that could plug into brain and show thoughts on screen is developed | Mail Online.and this is just begin,I will show more to you.include Fermi paradox;robot and human and so on.you may make clear all of it by yourself from the first key.
    we research the electrical not protein.
    Last edited by puzzler; December 21st, 2012 at 02:04 AM.
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  8. #7  
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    the second key:PLOS ONE: If I Were You: Perceptual Illusion of Body Swapping
    if you read it and feel it carefully.you may understand why you are "here".this is about the sense of exist.I named first person sight(who can help me to rename it in english,I can't describe it precisely in english).the sense confine us to have many copy of our memory.because there is the only one is me.others is he or she or it(or every memory is me,but every memory will have it's unique first person sight,so it will think the others is "he") . and this sense can make our life continue in new body.it is very important.you can think a scene that you will die tomorrow.so your doctor read your memory and make a euthanasia for you.and make a new body(clone,gene.AI) for you.and write your memory into the new body later.you can image what the new body thought ,feeling when he wake up.just like you wake up every morning.
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    the third key is the genic technology,AI and so on.these understand easy.many movie and story say it.we can produce a body by it.so there will be a magic thing happen when we blend the three "keys" together.a body has inherent sense,so it can see can listen and other sense.it just need to know who is he. then memory make it sure who is he.and the new body's first person sight will let it(it is you) know where it is(where you are).
    all of these will make you immortal.(if you have any question about it,ask me.I'll describe the detail)
    the most important thing is this will happen very soon.maybe 50 years,100 years(reference the computer's development).it's not a science fiction.it is truth and immediately.you can search "mind-read" and other relative key words in internet.maybe someday a scientist declare the mind-read machine has invented.
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  10. #9  
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    have anyone seen the movie <unknown>,when the roles lost their memory,they were anyone by they have found a little memory.
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  11. #10  
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    I have no confidence for my english.I have confused in this situation.no one reply me because my language or the theory.
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  12. #11  
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    The new explain of Fermi paradox
    Why we are so alone in the universe,this is impossible in statistics.it’s always confused us for a long time.but if we solve the following qusetions.maybe we can find the answer obviously.
    Can we read our memory from our brain by some kind of technology?and can we write it to a new brain of a new body we make it by genic technology or others.let’s assume it’s ture.so there are a series of questions coming.they are divided three parts.
    Part one: personal
    1:if your memory have been removed,who are you?
    2:if your memory have been replaced another one’s memory,who are you?think this question carefully,you can image that when you wake up in every morning.
    3:do you think the memory actually is your soul.( It doesn't matter if you don’t think so)
    4:do you want to prolong your life by this way that read and write your memory?if not,how about the time you will die very soon.I think if I will died and I will try it because I have nothing could be lost.
    Part two:Human
    1:if someone among us want prolong their life by the way read&write memory,does their life have huge advantage to normal person.because they are immortal,they can choose their body and etc.
    2:if 1% person in the world want prolong their life by this way,can they finally replace all human’s life form like now .
    3:if you can be immortal and change your body if you need.you live in the world a few thousands years after.what do you think about the meaning of the live.I have thought this question and I get a result that we will become observer from participator for nature.just watch,hear and feel the running of nature.
    4:can you image where the genic technology or other technology lead us to.the standard of body we choose is more strong, pretty or simple but can receive enough information from the nature that we can feel it better to be a observor.
    Part three: nature
    1:why every one in the earth thought they have soul and the soul is they real life.no one had ever seen or heard it.whatever they have different faith,education,nationality or etc.why this theory is infused into every one’s brain?can we define it is instinct.and every intelligent creature in the universe like or better than human have this instinct?
    2:if we calculate the length of human civilization from the birth of words.there have already been a few thousands years till now.let’s assume we will be observer within 5000 years.(it’s a very long time for human).so current human civilization is totally ten thousands years. The extinction of the Dinosaurs had occurred 66 million years ago.then you can image a scene that you have a book have 6.6 thousands pages.the kind of civilization of human just is one page among it.and we look for it in infinite space and time.the chance that we meet is very impossible.
    3:we all aware not every creature can be intelligent like human.human thing just is occasionaly happening.so maybe other “human” had appeared in the earth in other page.we just missed.so dose alien.the civilization like human that we look for just is a transition stage from participator to observer,the length is very short for the universe.and if we become observer,we just feel the running of the nature.don’t want to interfere in it.
    4:if we don’t like this future,can we stop it?I don’t think so.because no one can stop the science go forward.and there must have someone to try it when the read-mind technology is matured.
    5:Is there other way we can go?no,because the memory is the only answer for the soul,not DNA,face or something else.and the soul is human real life.no one can deny it.so if we can ,we must do.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 4th, 2013 at 09:59 PM.
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  13. #12  
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    memory vs DNA
    1:both of them are information but different appearance(just like words on the paper or out of mouth).
    2:both of them have remember function,the DNA remember parents(like yesterday) information,the memory remember yesterday
    3: DNA define the body,memory define who am I.
    4:both lost something and add something follow time.but both have main thread(trunk).DNA develop(change) slowly,memory develop very very faster than DNA.
    5:we always feel we have two part on us.one is the body,another is the spirit(memory).and we think the spirit is the real us
    6:your body have hungry feeling,your memory have too.you can try don't look at TV,use your computer,Ipad,phone etc.you will be agitated until you read or hear something. if you cannot accept new information for a long time,you will insanity.just like your body starve.
    so maybe memory is a type of life,maybe the life is a system of remember process.the life exist when the information is remebered and go on
    so maybe the intelligent creature in the universe always find they real life finally and take off the DNA(not utter take off,just don't depend on) .
    Last edited by puzzler; January 2nd, 2013 at 01:37 AM.
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  14. #13 a simple program of life 
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    1:The memory is the real life for the intelligent creature.like data base.
    2:the DNA create “instinct”to us.I divide the instinct into three parts,eat,breed and safe.
    So I make a simple program to simulate it.
    1:we have to got some data bases for some special kind of data
    2:we design some logic to simulate to instinct.
    The thing is
    The robot want to survive must to charge themselves when they are low power.so The situation is
    1:there are some electric outlet can refill power to the robots.but they are different.1)excellent:always have power.2)good:always have power but need more time to charge.3)no bad:sometimes can charge.
    2:these robots have different size,and the shape more bigger then they more strong.

    The robots logic
    1:when their power >30%.they first job is search for electric outlet and record its location and make “data base 1”(food) for themselves.and when they collect the location’s count >5,they can take a rest
    2:when their power<30%,they will be charged according to the “data base 1”.
    3:they will push away the other one who occupy the electric outlet when they are needing be charged.and because they are different size have different strong.so maybe they can work or not.they sign the robot with 1 or 0(can work is 1).and make the “data base 2”(safe).and next time the same things happening,they will according to the “data base 2”to make decision to push or go away to the next location according to the “data base 1”
    4:if their power lower than 15% and can’t be charged.they logic will be changed to find 10 electric outlet location in their “data base 1”after they survive.
    5:they have forgetting function..if some location long time not be visited,it will be abolished from the “data base1”

    The results:
    1:the robots can be learned by the database.
    2:they can be evolution.just like the situation their power lower than 15% and survive.
    3:more logic(need,instinct) need more database.so if the logics are numerous like human being,they can be more intelligence.
    4:logic can cross each other.for example,some electric outlets have over power and dangerous to some robots(small size).so the location of electric outlet will be signed in two database(food,safe).
    5:I think there have three main-logic---eat,breed(the robots sounds like don’t need it) and safe.and each main-logic have numerous sublogic.they maybe cross and found a new database.

    supplementary
    maybe we can get some conclusions from this experiment.
    1:the robots can live if they haven't database,just have more detail logic.so they need more breed for survive.because single unit have huge risk for survive.so they look like germ or plant.
    2:more database can get more intelligence,because they can make the best choice from the database.but they need more logic(need).if not,what does the data use for?
    3:we are intelligent creature,so the database is more important for us.
    4:logic is some kind of memory too.but different appearance. it like instinct database.each logic point to a need(instinct) of the robot.
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  15. #14  
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    I kind of feel some empathy toward the puzzler. His forum filibuster is obviously very important to him. I just wish I knew what it's all about. The word memory is oft repeated along with robots. Unfortunately something gets lost in the translation.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I kind of feel some empathy toward the puzzler. His forum filibuster is obviously very important to him. I just wish I knew what it's all about. The word memory is oft repeated along with robots. Unfortunately something gets lost in the translation.
    Puzzler thinks that our memories are the essence of our being, and these memories could be stored on a computer. Thus one might achieve immortality by downloading all of one's memories to a robotic computer.

    That could be important to somebody, I suppose. However, unless somebody else shows some interest in the topic, I shall have to close the thread. This isn't a blog, after all.
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  17. #16  
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    Sustaining one's past thoughts in a computer...perhaps the least appealing way to achieve immortality.
    "MODERATOR NOTE : We don't entertain trolls here, not even in the trash can. Banned." -Markus Hanke
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I kind of feel some empathy toward the puzzler. His forum filibuster is obviously very important to him. I just wish I knew what it's all about. The word memory is oft repeated along with robots. Unfortunately something gets lost in the translation.
    why put some empathy to me?
    you can think these question when you wake up in every morning.
    1:if I lose all memory in this moment,who am I,what should I do?
    2:if my memory was infused into other guy's brain,what will happen on that guy?.you can image that guy's thought when he wake up.who is the guy?what would he does when he wake up?you feel it carefully.you will know what I mean.
    3:the guy's feeling is the key of our future.this thing has never happened in the human history.so it need us open our mind to know it.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 4th, 2013 at 09:17 PM.
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Sustaining one's past thoughts in a computer...perhaps the least appealing way to achieve immortality.
    Wouldn't a man made artifact from the past be the same thing, after all some ancient human thought to make it. So are not thoughts already preserved. Take a book for instance.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  20. #19  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    Sustaining one's past thoughts in a computer...perhaps the least appealing way to achieve immortality.
    Wouldn't a man made artifact from the past be the same thing, after all some ancient human thought to make it. So are not thoughts already preserved. Take a book for instance.
    the instance is improper.how do you write a book?you just translate you 10% mind(for a assuming) into the book and you will hide your real thought to write the book.and the reader can't entirely absorb your mind from the book.and the book just can provide a little thought to the reader's whole life.there's no way to change the reader who they are.
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  21. #20  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    the instance is improper.how do you write a book?you just translate you 10% mind(for a assuming) into the book and you will hide your real thought to write the book.and the reader can't entirely absorb your mind from the book.and the book just can provide a little thought to the reader's whole life.there's no way to change the reader who they are.
    You talk about the Key, where did you get the idea?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    the instance is improper.how do you write a book?you just translate you 10% mind(for a assuming) into the book and you will hide your real thought to write the book.and the reader can't entirely absorb your mind from the book.and the book just can provide a little thought to the reader's whole life.there's no way to change the reader who they are.
    You talk about the Key, where did you get the idea?
    occasionally,I had a joke with my colleague.I had said"if I put your memory into a dog's brain,the dog will thought it is you"and I find it is reasonable suddenly.and I think maybe I find something just like I find my key.and I found I can open many puzzle doors by use the key.like Fermi paradox,who am I,our future,the world is real or not real(our memory is not physical and we depend on our memory to connect the nature,to create the different universe belong to ourself.),and others.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 4th, 2013 at 09:56 PM.
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  23. #22  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    the instance is improper.how do you write a book?you just translate you 10% mind(for a assuming) into the book and you will hide your real thought to write the book.and the reader can't entirely absorb your mind from the book.and the book just can provide a little thought to the reader's whole life.there's no way to change the reader who they are.
    You talk about the Key, where did you get the idea?
    occasionally,I have a joke with my colleague.I had said"if I put your memory into a dog's brain,the dog will thought it is you"and I find it is reasonable suddenly.and I think maybe I find something just like I find my key.
    The idea of The Key.......Would you say it's changed your life, how you think, how you observe, how you imagine?

    book just can provide a little thought to the reader's whole life.there's no way to change the reader who they are.
    You are aware that if we want to learn about the Key then we must read your words.
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; June 4th, 2013 at 10:05 PM.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    the instance is improper.how do you write a book?you just translate you 10% mind(for a assuming) into the book and you will hide your real thought to write the book.and the reader can't entirely absorb your mind from the book.and the book just can provide a little thought to the reader's whole life.there's no way to change the reader who they are.
    You talk about the Key, where did you get the idea?
    occasionally,I have a joke with my colleague.I had said"if I put your memory into a dog's brain,the dog will thought it is you"and I find it is reasonable suddenly.and I think maybe I find something just like I find my key.
    The idea of The Key.......Would you say it's changed your life, how you think, how you observe, how you imagine?
    yes,I feel better for my life since I know who I am.it is hard to tell you what I am feeling.I just feel some kinds of freedom and expectation,just like you lose your way in your trip for a long time and suddenly you find the destination(direction)

    "You are aware that if we want to learn about the Key then we must read your words."

    it's misunderstand my meaning.no one can tell you who you are,just only yourself.I just took some question to help you to rethinking who you are. it's a hint,not conclusion.you get the result by yourself and maybe you think it's a bullshit or you are enlightened for it.the questions is the key,whatever who say it.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 5th, 2013 at 07:28 AM.
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  25. #24  
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    The Keymaker has arrived.



    If identity is memory and if memory is changeable, then identity is changeable.

    A thought experiment I like: What if you could make a perfect copy of your brain down to the smallest level, and by some Star Trek teleportation technology, swap it out instantly with your current brain? Would you experience death, because you are that original brain? Or would you continue to live, like the programs on a computer that had been instantly swapped on to a new (but identical) physical computer? What if it was done a piece at a time, so small parts of your brain were being replaced with identical (down to atomic level) parts?

    I believe the answer is that you would continue to live, because mind is information and brain is medium, like hard drive. But I'm not sure, I always wonder about that.

    Good post though.
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  26. #25  
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    Quote Originally Posted by TridentBlue View Post
    The Keymaker has arrived.



    If identity is memory and if memory is changeable, then identity is changeable.

    A thought experiment I like: What if you could make a perfect copy of your brain down to the smallest level, and by some Star Trek teleportation technology, swap it out instantly with your current brain? Would you experience death, because you are that original brain? Or would you continue to live, like the programs on a computer that had been instantly swapped on to a new (but identical) physical computer? What if it was done a piece at a time, so small parts of your brain were being replaced with identical (down to atomic level) parts?

    I believe the answer is that you would continue to live, because mind is information and brain is medium, like hard drive. But I'm not sure, I always wonder about that.

    Good post though.
    you got what I mean.but don't worry about the way of identify.because 1: our memory is always change and who am I is always change too.(you can compare your young age with today)2:we have no choice about it.we just only depend on memory to identify who I am.so whatever the memory is,you will accept without any trouble.(I want tell me I was a superman,but my memory say:don't be silly)

    don't need instant.if you put your memory into other body after 100 years,it just like you sleep at 100 year.

    every one has his own universe formed from his own memory.so in the ancient the man think the earth is square, this is right to him.though we know this is absolutely wrong.because ancient just can feel the square earth can't feel spherical earth and this wrong thought(memory)didn't influence his live.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 5th, 2013 at 07:21 AM.
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  27. #26 transplant chip 
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    how would we infuse our memory into another body.I have got a idea from some scientific topic.we can make a chip of our memory then transplant in a body.every science fans may know how it's work,so I don't explain the detail.(because my English).
    1:we can make a body used our gene(clone),and we have the right for the body.
    2:when the body is a baby we transplant the chip into his brain as a peripheral.
    3:I think the baby can entirely absorb the information from the peripheral,because they haven't his own consiousness,so he can accept the information well.just like our growth up.when we are baby we don't know who I am,so we absorb the information from around(a child can be anyone if he was adopted from different family).but when I am an adult,no one can change my mind easily.
    4:we can take the chip out when the baby already absorb the information enough.

    the point is:what the feeling about the baby,does he can identify himself smoothly
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  28. #27  
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    You have some very basic misunderstandings here of how memory works and what it is. You have [B]not [B] got every second of your life stored away somewhere ready for you to recall. Your memory doesn't exist until you have one. Fundamentally, nothing is stored in memory until something happens that excites your nervous system enough for it to take a "snapshot" of it. When you recall a memory it is pliable and you can and more than likely will mix in some details of what is currently happening in your environment as you recall the original memory (this is one of the processes by which false memories can occur). So basically - the only way you could get your memories downloaded onto a chip would be to actively recall them (at the minute that is - who knows, someone might invent a macro that could just run the connections of your brain to see what it gets......).

    And I think trying to deny the right of another human being to live their own life by installing your memories into their brain at infancy is just bordering on the criminally insane or not........? mwah, hah, hah, haaaaa
    "And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh" Nietzsche.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LuciDreaming View Post
    You have some very basic misunderstandings here of how memory works and what it is. You have [B]not [B] got every second of your life stored away somewhere ready for you to recall. Your memory doesn't exist until you have one. Fundamentally, nothing is stored in memory until something happens that excites your nervous system enough for it to take a "snapshot" of it. When you recall a memory it is pliable and you can and more than likely will mix in some details of what is currently happening in your environment as you recall the original memory (this is one of the processes by which false memories can occur). So basically - the only way you could get your memories downloaded onto a chip would be to actively recall them (at the minute that is - who knows, someone might invent a macro that could just run the connections of your brain to see what it gets......).

    And I think trying to deny the right of another human being to live their own life by installing your memories into their brain at infancy is just bordering on the criminally insane or not........? mwah, hah, hah, haaaaa
    thank you for you pointed that.I am not expert of neurology.what I said that basic on the brain function.if brain can do that,maybe we can do it in sometime or do it better.more efficiency . and I think we don't need entire memory to identify who I am.because our memory always change and we always forget some things.and those information can identify ourselves usually can be recalled easily.just like your name,family,where are you working and living,your lover and etc.

    yes,this is a big problem for ethics.but what is ethics?I think there is no ethics in the nature,it's made by human being.we define it by some human's reason.we can change it as we need and we always do it.and finally we always can accept it.now,in china,we can accept the sex before marriage. you have no idea about the important of virgin to chinese husband before a few decades.it can kill the husband(if the wife wasn't a virgin,the husband will insane or very depression in all life).
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    I ever had an experience of read&write memory ,just in a dream,but you know we always cannot distinguish the real or not real in the dream.so I had a real experience for it.the dream is I was pursued by a monster,very huge and ugly.I was scared and run as fast as I can .and finally I have no way to run,I closed my eyes in desperate and waiting for the follow things.but suddenly I found the voice is far away from me then I opened my eyes I found the monster was catching another man who crouched in the ground. I knew the man is me but I can't feel his(my) feeling.and my feeling was standing on another body I was possessing now.and then I felt a sense of huge freedom and courage I never had.I was so exciting because I will never afraid of hurt,disease,death or something else.
    I know this feeling is the feeling of read&write process feeling . one body died so his feeling is closed, and his memory will be continued in a new body who has its own sense.and the new body know who he is just like me in the dream.trust me,this experience is very very exciting that you never have. you can refer to the feeling you become superman.
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    I think the monster represent my disease,hurt,death or some other miserable things I can't avoid in my life.so I have no way to run till I transfer my memory.
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    Double post
    Last edited by Faithfulbeliever; June 23rd, 2013 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Deleted
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    The new explain of Fermi paradox
    Why we are so alone in the universe,this is impossible in statistics.it痴 always confused us for a long time.but if we solve the following qusetions.maybe we can find the answer obviously.
    Can we read our memory from our brain by some kind of technology?and can we write it to a new brain of a new body we make it by genic technology or others.let痴 assume it痴 ture.so there are a series of questions coming.they are divided three parts.
    Part one: personal
    1:if your memory have been removed,who are you?
    2:if your memory have been replaced another one痴 memory,who are you?think this question carefully,you can image that when you wake up in every morning.
    3:do you think the memory actually is your soul.( It doesn't matter if you don稚 think so)
    4:do you want to prolong your life by this way that read and write your memory?if not,how about the time you will die very soon.I think if I will died and I will try it because I have nothing could be lost.
    Part two:Human
    1:if someone among us want prolong their life by the way read&write memory,does their life have huge advantage to normal person.because they are immortal,they can choose their body and etc.
    2:if 1% person in the world want prolong their life by this way,can they finally replace all human痴 life form like now .
    3:if you can be immortal and change your body if you need.you live in the world a few thousands years after.what do you think about the meaning of the live.I have thought this question and I get a result that we will become observer from participator for nature.just watch,hear and feel the running of nature.
    4:can you image where the genic technology or other technology lead us to.the standard of body we choose is more strong, pretty or simple but can receive enough information from the nature that we can feel it better to be a observor.
    Part three: nature
    1:why every one in the earth thought they have soul and the soul is they real life.no one had ever seen or heard it.whatever they have different faith,education,nationality or etc.why this theory is infused into every one痴 brain?can we define it is instinct.and every intelligent creature in the universe like or better than human have this instinct?
    2:if we calculate the length of human civilization from the birth of words.there have already been a few thousands years till now.let痴 assume we will be observer within 5000 years.(it痴 a very long time for human).so current human civilization is totally ten thousands years. The extinction of the Dinosaurs had occurred 66 million years ago.then you can image a scene that you have a book have 6.6 thousands pages.the kind of civilization of human just is one page among it.and we look for it in infinite space and time.the chance that we meet is very impossible.
    3:we all aware not every creature can be intelligent like human.human thing just is occasionaly happening.so maybe other 塗uman had appeared in the earth in other page.we just missed.so dose alien.the civilization like human that we look for just is a transition stage from participator to observer,the length is very short for the universe.and if we become observer,we just feel the running of the nature.don稚 want to interfere in it.
    4:if we don稚 like this future,can we stop it?I don稚 think so.because no one can stop the science go forward.and there must have someone to try it when the read-mind technology is matured.
    5:Is there other way we can go?no,because the memory is the only answer for the soul,not DNA,face or something else.and the soul is human real life.no one can deny it.so if we can ,we must do.
    Some of the things you said makes sense upto a certain extent, but there is also a major flaw there. You are indirectly claiming that : "we are our memory". We can see the world because we have eyes and without an eye we won't be able to see. Does it mean that the eye is the actual seeing itself? Of course not, it is only a medium through which we are able to see. Similarly, through our memory we are able to remember our identity in this world, it does not mean our memory is our own selves. If you donate your eyes to a blind infant, he will see the world through your eyes, but still it would be him seeing it. Similarly if you transfer all your memories to an infant, it will only mean he will experience all that you've experienced in your lifetime, but his own identity will not vanish. If you transfer all you memories to an infant while you are alive, does it mean there are "two" of you at the same time? Do you see what I am saying now?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Some of the things you said makes sense upto a certain extent, but there is also a major flaw there. You are indirectly claiming that : "we are our memory". We can see the world because we have eyes and without an eye we won't be able to see. Does it mean that the eye is the actual seeing itself? Of course not, it is only a medium through which we are able to see. Similarly, through our memory we are able to remember our identity in this world, it does not mean our memory is our own selves.
    Does it not?
    EVERYTHING that "you" are is a product of your memory - the accumulation of all the experiences you've had, everything you've seen, etc.

    Similarly if you transfer all your memories to an infant, it will only mean he will experience all that you've experienced in your lifetime, but his own identity will not vanish.
    Pure speculation on your part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Some of the things you said makes sense upto a certain extent, but there is also a major flaw there. You are indirectly claiming that : "we are our memory". We can see the world because we have eyes and without an eye we won't be able to see. Does it mean that the eye is the actual seeing itself? Of course not, it is only a medium through which we are able to see. Similarly, through our memory we are able to remember our identity in this world, it does not mean our memory is our own selves.
    Does it not?
    EVERYTHING that "you" are is a product of your memory - the accumulation of all the experiences you've had, everything you've seen, etc.

    Similarly if you transfer all your memories to an infant, it will only mean he will experience all that you've experienced in your lifetime, but his own identity will not vanish.
    Pure speculation on your part.
    Let us say if you completely lost all of your memories and then all my memories are transferred into your brain, does it mean you will use all those memories in exact same way as I use them? Will you simply become me and do things in a way I do them?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Let us say if you completely lost all of your memories and then all my memories are transferred into your brain, does it mean you will use all those memories in exact same way as I use them? Will you simply become me and do things in a way I do them?
    If I no longer have my memories (any of them) then anything I have learned (including behaviours) will go. There will no longer be anything that defines my personality as "me".
    If I then subsequently get your memories I'd become "you" - and then, due to differences in location, experiences, physique, physical abilities, etc. we'd diverge as personalities - the longer it's left the further "I" would depart from "you" - although, to a certain extent, I'd be recognisable as you (except physically).

    At least that's how I see it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Let us say if you completely lost all of your memories and then all my memories are transferred into your brain, does it mean you will use all those memories in exact same way as I use them? Will you simply become me and do things in a way I do them?
    If I no longer have my memories (any of them) then anything I have learned (including behaviours) will go. There will no longer be anything that defines my personality as "me".
    If I then subsequently get your memories I'd become "you" - and then, due to differences in location, experiences, physique, physical abilities, etc. we'd diverge as personalities - the longer it's left the further "I" would depart from "you" - although, to a certain extent, I'd be recognisable as you (except physically).

    At least that's how I see it.
    Good answer!
    I would go a step further though. Immediately after receiving my memories, I think, you would not necessarily use them in the exact same way as I use them currently. You would start developing your own personality even if the environment is given the same. One reason could be the heredity and more reasons, mentioning them would be out of topic. (Plus personality is not to be confused with identity). I do like your answer though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    I would go a step further though. Immediately after receiving my memories, I think, you would not necessarily use them in the exact same way as I use them currently. You would start developing your own personality even if the environment is given the same. One reason could be the heredity
    Granted, possibly neuron connections (brain structure) would have some effect.

    and more reasons, mentioning them would be out of topic.
    ?

    (Plus personality is not to be confused with identity).
    What's the difference? The meaningful difference? (Neglecting the physical aspects of course).
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    What's the difference? The meaningful difference? (Neglecting the physical aspects of course).
    Well, if you ask me the difference between my personality and my identity, then all I can tell you is what people are able to see of me through their physical vision and through interaction with me is my personality which is changeable and what I know of my own self deep down is my identity which is unchangeable.

    See ya!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Well, if you ask me the difference between my personality and my identity, then all I can tell you is what people are able to see of me through their physical vision and through interaction with me is my personality which is changeable and what I know of my own self deep down is my identity which is unchangeable.
    See ya!
    By physical aspects I meant body.
    But here's a couple of links that tend to suggest that identity (excepting body/ appearance) IS personality (mind).
    Personal Identity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
    Personal identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    From the second: Take for example a prince's mind which enters the body of a cobbler: to all exterior eyes, the cobbler would remain a cobbler. But to the prince himself, the cobbler would be himself, as he would be conscious of the prince's thoughts and acts, and not those of the cobbler. A prince's consciousness in a cobbler's body: thus the cobbler is, in fact, a prince.

    And why on Earth do you think that your own self is unchangeable?
    As far as I can tell the ONLY thing thing that doesn't change is the sense/ knowledge that "I am myself".
    Tastes change, attitudes change, behaviours change...
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Well, if you ask me the difference between my personality and my identity, then all I can tell you is what people are able to see of me through their physical vision and through interaction with me is my personality which is changeable and what I know of my own self deep down is my identity which is unchangeable.
    See ya!
    By physical aspects I meant body.
    But here's a couple of links that tend to suggest that identity (excepting body/ appearance) IS personality (mind).
    Personal Identity (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
    Personal identity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    From the second: Take for example a prince's mind which enters the body of a cobbler: to all exterior eyes, the cobbler would remain a cobbler. But to the prince himself, the cobbler would be himself, as he would be conscious of the prince's thoughts and acts, and not those of the cobbler. A prince's consciousness in a cobbler's body: thus the cobbler is, in fact, a prince.

    And why on Earth do you think that your own self is unchangeable?
    As far as I can tell the ONLY thing thing that doesn't change is the sense/ knowledge that "I am myself".
    Tastes change, attitudes change, behaviours change...
    IF it would be possible to transfer the complete consciousness of prince into the cobbler and delete the consciousness of cobbler, then yes, the cobbler would actually become prince. That's a big IF though. That would not be a mere change of personality but a change of identity. Simply transferring the memories would not do the job.

    Taste changes, attitudes changes, behaviours changes all of which is a part of one's personality which as I said above is itself changeable. Identity does not change because it does not depend on one's personality. The knowledge of "who I really am" is one's identity!

    ( I will read the links you provided later, middle of something right now. Gotta go).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    IF it would be possible to transfer the complete consciousness of prince into the cobbler and delete the consciousness of cobbler, then yes, the cobbler would actually become prince. That's a big IF though. That would not be a mere change of personality but a change of identity. Simply transferring the memories would not do the job.
    What is there to identity (mentally) apart from memories?

    Taste changes, attitudes changes, behaviours changes all of which is a part of one's personality which as I said above is itself changeable. Identity does not change because it does not depend on one's personality. The knowledge of "who I really am" is one's identity!
    In other words the "feeling" that "I am myself" - which is also embedded in the memory (which provides the "continuity" of self).
    That knowledge is a sole aspect - and only, as far as I can tell, just that - "I am myself".
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    A serial killer trades consciousness with another person then kills old self, repeatedly. I think it would make a great movie plot.

    Anyway I'm not too well researched on mind (memory)transfer but wouldn't evolution deter such a thing from happening? Would not every brain be different, even slightly due to the evolutionary process, a little tweak here and there. Would brains be compatible? How would you format one personality to run in a different design?

    Somehow I can't see Einstein moving into Forrest Gump's brain.
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; June 23rd, 2013 at 09:24 PM.
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    [QUOTE=Faithfulbeliever;433616]
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post

    Some of the things you said makes sense upto a certain extent, but there is also a major flaw there. You are indirectly claiming that : "we are our memory". We can see the world because we have eyes and without an eye we won't be able to see. Does it mean that the eye is the actual seeing itself? Of course not, it is only a medium through which we are able to see. Similarly, through our memory we are able to remember our identity in this world, it does not mean our memory is our own selves. If you donate your eyes to a blind infant, he will see the world through your eyes, but still it would be him seeing it. Similarly if you transfer all your memories to an infant, it will only mean he will experience all that you've experienced in your lifetime, but his own identity will not vanish. If you transfer all you memories to an infant while you are alive, does it mean there are "two" of you at the same time? Do you see what I am saying now?
    what do your think about your life?a single entity,or a process and system?if you think your life is a single entity,my theory is wrong to you.most of us usually have this thinking.we are the one be produced by the nature.though we don't know what we are in the future,but it must be.because who we are is destined from birth day.
    if you think your life is a system and process ,you can use my theory explain your life.we have yesterday ,today and tomorrow.we need continued the process to prolong our life.so if today I died,I take off my memory and put into another health body to continue MY life.because the memory carry on my yesterday,so I can use the new body and memory go through today and tomorrow.if my memory is vanished,my yesterday is also vanished.so today is a man's new life cause he have no yesterday.
    if you think your life is a system,so you can understand your personality is not solid,it's can changed by environment.and we can assemble our life by use some way.1) personality,you are sick and health, rich and poor, sunny and rainy,fresh air and pollution and everything can change you personality.confidence,generous,happy,sadness....a nd your personality is always change from your baby age to now.so we don't have our own personality,just possess current personality and it is created by environment(include your body and your memory).2)assemble,if we can accept our life is a system,so we can assemble our life by some technology.make new body,read&write memory.it's simple in the future.
    the first person sight not the first person eye.I used a sense not organ.you can image you are in a black room and I transfer another people's sense to you and cut down your own sense.can you distinguish and deny the other one's sense?
    a simple example,if a infant is adopted by 100 family,you think the baby will become 100 kinds person,or whatever he will be the one man that is destined by nature.so if my memory put into a infant's brain,how does he identify himself.he doesn't have his own memory.
    the first person sight is important to avoid we copy numerous our memory.the first sight decide our existence feeling.we just can only have one first person sight.so if we produce 100 "me".each of them think him is "me "but the other 99 person is he.so this is none sense for us.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 23rd, 2013 at 09:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    A serial killer trades consciousness with another person then kills old self, repeatedly. I think it would make a great movie plot.

    Anyway I'm not too well researched on mind (memory)transfer but wouldn't evolution deter such a thing from happening? Would not every brain be different, even slightly due to the evolutionary process, a little tweak here and there. Would brains be compatible? How would you format one personality to run in a different design?

    Somehow I can't see Einstein moving into Forrest Gump's brain.
    just like i said before(the example of virgin in china),the ethic always change.and you don't worry about killer or crazy scientist or some evil politician would control the whole people or world.maybe in the begin some people will do that your concerned because of the thought of inertia(just like you first choose your body like handsome,strong or...and many times later you don't care these features)
    why dose the killer want to kill other people,he can produce a new body from some company(breed company) or just sex.and why some evil politician want to control the world or change people's memory(though they do it in current),in the future we'll want to be a observer not participator,why they make themselves life so hard.watch the running of nature just like tourist is comfortable.
    we choose our new body is in initiative,not random.so we can control the situation after transferred,if we can't,get ride of it and make one more time is OK.the problem of compatible is spare question because you can use the body made of your gene at least.

    consciousness and personality is not the thing we used for identity myself.can you describe your personality precisely and like other one think of you?can you know the next second you will create what kind of consciousness?I don't know what is my exactly personality,and I never know what I am feeling at the next second .but I always know who I am ,and I can be sure if the next time my memory is vanished and I can't know who I am immediately.who am I is a kind of consciousness,and there are numerous others consciousness.just like you can name puzzler(me) is a human but can't name human is puzzler.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 24th, 2013 at 02:35 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    what do your think about your life?a single entity,or a process and system?if you think your life is a single entity,my theory is wrong to you.most of us usually have this thinking.we are the one be produced by the nature.though we don't know what we are in the future,but it must be.because who we are is destined from birth day.
    if you think your life is a system and process ,you can use my theory explain your life.we have yesterday ,today and tomorrow.we need continued the process to prolong our life.so if today I died,I take off my memory and put into another health body to continue MY life.because the memory carry on my yesterday,so I can use the new body and memory go through today and tomorrow.if my memory is vanished,my yesterday is also vanished.so today is a man's new life cause he have no yesterday.
    if you think your life is a system,so you can understand your personality is not solid,it's can changed by environment.and we can assemble our life by use some way.1) personality,you are sick and health, rich and poor, sunny and rainy,fresh air and pollution and everything can change you personality.confidence,generous,happy,sadness....a nd your personality is always change from your baby age to now.so we don't have our own personality,just possess current personality and it is created by environment(include your body and your memory).2)assemble,if we can accept our life is a system,so we can assemble our life by some technology.make new body,read&write memory.it's simple in the future.
    the first person sight not the first person eye.I used a sense not organ.you can image you are in a black room and I transfer another people's sense to you and cut down your own sense.can you distinguish and deny the other one's sense?
    a simple example,if a infant is adopted by 100 family,you think the baby will become 100 kinds person,or whatever he will be the one man that is destined by nature.so if my memory put into a infant's brain,how does he identify himself.he doesn't have his own memory.
    the first person sight is important to avoid we copy numerous our memory.the first sight decide our existence feeling.we just can only have one first person sight.so if we produce 100 "me".each of them think him is "me "but the other 99 person is he.so this is none sense for us.
    [When I read your post about capturing the memory of a person into a chip and then transferring it into another, I had hard time digesting the concept. But I responded because the level of confidence you showed tells me you really believe it is possible. And if it is possible, then doing it only makes the little baby a victim of a serious crime.]

    I think you are confused between a personality of a person and identity of a person. If the memory transfer is really done, then it would definitely affect the personality of the infant, but not his identity. Consider this, if the memory of a lion is transferred into a goat, will the goat become a lion? of course not, it will still remain a goat but a confused one. I understand that you are saying that the memory should be transferred to the being which belongs to the same species, but do you think that you are a human and that is your complete identity? Your species is your identity? If that is true then there are already more than six billion of you on earth then why bother transferring your memory? And if you really think your memory is you, then why not transfer it into a supercomputer or just leave it in the chip and stay alive in the chip forever? I do not how to make clearer than this so you understand what I am trying to say to you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    I think you are confused between a personality of a person and identity of a person. If the memory transfer is really done, then it would definitely affect the personality of the infant, but not his identity.
    Please explain the difference between the two.
    And why memory isn't at the root of identity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    I think you are confused between a personality of a person and identity of a person. If the memory transfer is really done, then it would definitely affect the personality of the infant, but not his identity.
    Please explain the difference between the two.
    And why memory isn't at the root of identity.
    If you read my previous post in its entirety and understand it, you will automatically understand the answer to both your questions. But if I try to be more clearer to tell you, you will only bring up more questions and we will enter into a very different debate and I prefer not to. So if you do not see your answers in my previous post, then I appreciate if you ignore it or just call it wrong and I don't have a problem with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    If you read my previous post in its entirety and understand it, you will automatically understand the answer to both your questions
    And if you'd read my reply to that you'd have seen that you're making assumptions.

    But if I try to be more clearer to tell you, you will only bring up more questions and we will enter into a very different debate and I prefer not to. So if you do not see your answers in my previous post, then I appreciate if you ignore it or just call it wrong and I don't have a problem with it.
    Fine, you can't actually answer.
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    I'll go out on a limb and say memory transfer will never come to pass. It's one of those things that will never be invented, like perpetual motion machines. Sure some people will claim they can do it but then again those same people have cured cancer a hundredfold, yet it's still around. Hoaxes, shams and elaborate ruses will boggle the minds of the easily duped, who will profess the credibility of the wonder device. This whole idea belongs in the pretend world of faith healers and psychics.

    I hope the Puzzler doesn't waste a lifetime chasing the elusive dream. I have a vision of the poor guy, hair unkempt, unshaven, fingers poking through his gloves complete with frozen nasal sap hovering over a mouthful of crooked teeth as he wanders the streets carrying the secrets of mind transfer with him inside a plastic Walmart shopping bag, tucked deep within a wire basket hanging loosely from the handlebars of a rusty old Chinese Flying Pigeon.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I'll go out on a limb and say memory transfer will never come to pass. It's one of those things that will never be invented, like perpetual motion machines. Sure some people will claim they can do it but then again those same people have cured cancer a hundredfold, yet it's still around. Hoaxes, shams and elaborate ruses will boggle the minds of the easily duped, who will profess the credibility of the wonder device. This whole idea belongs in the pretend world of faith healers and psychics.

    I hope the Puzzler doesn't waste a lifetime chasing the elusive dream. I have a vision of the poor guy, hair unkempt, unshaven, fingers poking through his gloves complete with frozen nasal sap hovering over a mouthful of crooked teeth as he wanders the streets carrying the secrets of mind transfer with him inside a plastic Walmart shopping bag, tucked deep within a wire basket hanging loosely from the handlebars of a rusty old Chinese Flying Pigeon.
    1)perpetual motion machines do not like read&write memory technology.because it isn't exist in the nature.but read&write is a function of brain,is normally in the nature.why we can't study it and invent some thing like this.have you seen this :Psychic computer that could plug into brain and show thoughts on screen is developed | Mail Online)
    2)my theory explain the Fermi paradox,on the other way the Fermi paradox testify my theory.I can't believe every civilization will disappeared by some catastrophe.because seven billion human in the earth thrive from several dozens of human in ancient Africa.if we meet a catastrophe and most of us be killed.just left several dozens people,we can thrive again.we are more intelligent than those people in ancient Africa
    3)why do you hate me so much,even if my situation like your image,it's nothing about what I said.you just focus on my words and try find something is wrong is correct.

    " if the memory of a lion is transferred into a goat, will the goat become a lion?"why not!(discard the problem of compatible)do your hear the story of wolf child(I don't know how to translate this word 狼孩),the story happened in India,the boy(girl) was raised by wolf since he was infant.the species confusing is often happen in the world.and you can think about why the boy(girl) think he is wolf not human.Feral child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    "When I read your post about capturing the memory of a person into a chip and then transferring it into another, I had hard time digesting the concept."you can think it like this way,you provide your gene to the doctor and authorize him to produce your organ(the baby).you have the right of the baby and you won't kill the baby just give he a life of yours.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 25th, 2013 at 01:19 AM.
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    Whoa! Do you believe this is a credible source?

    why do you hate me so much,
    No one here hates you. We try very hard to understand what you're saying. Yes, something is lost in the translation.

    However, just as you have the right to promote memory transfer, I have the right to say it will never happen. That's just the way it is. I don't hate anyone for believing in something.
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; June 24th, 2013 at 09:09 PM.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    we can not stop its happen.we just can do the thing is accept it or not.
    you can image if the technology is invented and what will happen.can you stop the scientist study our brain?can you stop anyone in the earth test it?if they are renascence,can you compete with them?you died and they still alive with much knowledge.your descendant will accept it and want to be them.and eventually all human will go this way.those can't accept it will disappear.
    the problem for me is can I get the chance the technology been invented and mature
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    If cellular memory exists as is suggested in this article then how do you propose to exchange memory between individuals? You think memory is stored only in the brain but these people think differently. If the people who wrote this article are correct then simply transferring memory from one person's brain to another's is not enough since the rest of the body's cells will still have memory of the original owner. Can you show me how these people are wrong or how you would get a memory transfer completed if what they say is true?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    If cellular memory exists as is suggested in this article then how do you propose to exchange memory between individuals? You think memory is stored only in the brain but these people think differently. If the people who wrote this article are correct then simply transferring memory from one person's brain to another's is not enough since the rest of the body's cells will still have memory of the original owner. Can you show me how these people are wrong or how you would get a memory transfer completed if what they say is true?
    yes,DNA is a kind of memory,and we also have muscular memory(play basketball,ride on a bicycle).I think it's depend on what is more important to you.I think the memory in your brain can identity who are you and it's exclusive(Hawkin know who he is).and the most important thing to you is how can identity who are you.not play basketball or something else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    If cellular memory exists as is suggested in this article then how do you propose to exchange memory between individuals? You think memory is stored only in the brain but these people think differently. If the people who wrote this article are correct then simply transferring memory from one person's brain to another's is not enough since the rest of the body's cells will still have memory of the original owner. Can you show me how these people are wrong or how you would get a memory transfer completed if what they say is true?
    yes,DNA is a kind of memory,and we also have muscular memory(play basketball,ride on a bicycle).I think it's depend on what is more important to you.I think the memory in your brain can identity who are you and it's exclusive(Hawkin know who he is).and the most important thing to you is how can identity who are you.not play basketball or something else.
    So you think it is possible for a body to retain one memory(identity) from one person and co-exist along with the original memory (cellular) of another? Wouldn't brain cells be included with cellular memory? From the article:
    The Cellular Memory pre-disposes or, "programs" you to perceive and behave a certain way as thoughts and feelings are made manifest within your consciousness.
    Stored within the Cellular Memory are all the conscious and unconscious patterns of behaviors. The unproductive patterns impair our ability to feel well, happy, healthy, attain our goals and fulfill our destiny
    Would these cellular attributes not conflict with the sudden introduction of an alien identity?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    If cellular memory exists as is suggested in this article then how do you propose to exchange memory between individuals? You think memory is stored only in the brain but these people think differently. If the people who wrote this article are correct then simply transferring memory from one person's brain to another's is not enough since the rest of the body's cells will still have memory of the original owner. Can you show me how these people are wrong or how you would get a memory transfer completed if what they say is true?
    yes,DNA is a kind of memory,and we also have muscular memory(play basketball,ride on a bicycle).I think it's depend on what is more important to you.I think the memory in your brain can identity who are you and it's exclusive(Hawkin know who he is).and the most important thing to you is how can identity who are you.not play basketball or something else.
    So you think it is possible for a body to retain one memory(identity) from one person and co-exist along with the original memory (cellular) of another? Wouldn't brain cells be included with cellular memory? From the article:
    The Cellular Memory pre-disposes or, "programs" you to perceive and behave a certain way as thoughts and feelings are made manifest within your consciousness.
    Stored within the Cellular Memory are all the conscious and unconscious patterns of behaviors. The unproductive patterns impair our ability to feel well, happy, healthy, attain our goals and fulfill our destiny
    Would these cellular attributes not conflict with the sudden introduction of an alien identity?
    cellular memory do not conflict alien memory.we always receive outside information. our body don't feel bad.but our body rejects other body's organ.this maybe the conflict of cellular memory.
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    This certainly sounds like Scientology nonsense.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Whoa! Do you believe this is a credible source?

    why do you hate me so much,
    No one here hates you. We try very hard to understand what you're saying. Yes, something is lost in the translation.

    However, just as you have the right to promote memory transfer, I have the right to say it will never happen. That's just the way it is. I don't hate anyone for believing in something.
    Professor Jack Gallant, who carried out the experiment at the University of California, Berkeley,

    Read more: Psychic computer that could plug into brain and show thoughts on screen is developed | Mail Online
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    c
    an you connect the professor,you know I speak English is hard.maybe he will say something about read memory.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    This certainly sounds like Scientology nonsense.
    Agreed.

    Is this part of a hidden agenda? I'll make sure I follow every step of the way. Also can't wait for the latest perpetual motion machine update .
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    This certainly sounds like Scientology nonsense.
    Agreed.

    Is this part of a hidden agenda? I'll make sure I follow every step of the way. Also can't wait for the latest perpetual motion machine update .
    I think the earth is the center of the universe.all stars are around of earth.and the earth is a big square.don't try to deny these to me, I don't believe all of your evidence.why do I recollect something had happened in the medieval age. LOL ,
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Professor Jack Gallant, who carried out the experiment at the University of California, Berkeley,
    Wanted to make sure Gallant had experimented on animals prior to humans. It appears that he has but it seems like that didn't exactly meet with approval from a dissenting public. Looks like the professor has a few animal rights groups who don't seem to appreciate his work. I thought this one sounded a bit upset. These guys are pissed off too. Activists could stall or derail the inventing of mind reading devices in North America.

    Why is it called a Psychic computer? Is it because it can't be explained using natural laws or does the computer have some kind of telepathic ability?
    Last edited by zinjanthropos; June 25th, 2013 at 09:55 PM.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Professor Jack Gallant, who carried out the experiment at the University of California, Berkeley,
    Wanted to make sure Gallant had experimented on animals prior to humans. It appears that he has but it seems like that didn't exactly meet with approval from a dissenting public. Looks like the professor has a few animal rights groups who don't seem to appreciate his work. I thought this one sounded a bit upset. These guys are pissed off too. Activists could stall or derail the inventing of mind reading devices in North America.

    Why is it called a Psychic computer? Is it because it can't be explained using natural laws or does the computer have some kind of telepathic ability?
    it just showed a possibility for mind reading,and it is too roughly to satisfied people's necessary that identity who he is.but we talk the thing have a huge range.100 years,1000 years.and the range is very short to the universe.so open your mind to think this problem maybe you can get it.what was the situation of world 100 years ago,and can you image I(a Chinese guy) can exchange my opinion to you anytime in that age?
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    This certainly sounds like Scientology nonsense.
    Agreed.

    Is this part of a hidden agenda? I'll make sure I follow every step of the way. Also can't wait for the latest perpetual motion machine update .
    I think the earth is the center of the universe.all stars are around of earth.and the earth is a big square.don't try to deny these to me, I don't believe all of your evidence.why do I recollect something had happened in the medieval age. LOL ,
    Because you're still living in it
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    " if the memory of a lion is transferred into a goat, will the goat become a lion?"
    why not!(discard the problem of compatible)do your hear the story of wolf child(I don't know how to translate this word 狼孩),the story happened in India,the boy(girl) was raised by wolf since he was infant.the species confusing is often happen in the world.and you can think about why the boy(girl) think he is wolf not human.
    Feral child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    "When I read your post about capturing the memory of a person into a chip and then transferring it into another, I had hard time digesting the concept."
    you can think it like this way,you provide your gene to the doctor and
    authorize him to produce your organ(the baby).you have the right of the baby and you won't kill the baby just give he a life of yours.
    I'll leave aside the "question of possibility" of what you said and try to explain you the flaw in your "theory" one last time.

    Interesting story you shared, but again you missed my whole point. The boy was raised by wolves so his personality became like a wolf and I've already acknowledged that personality gets affected by the environment. Consider this, if we bring a new born baby wolf into our society, what will happen? we all know we can train him to be like a domesticated dog, but can we teach it to read and write during his lifetime? Drive a car? use a computer etc,etc. Now if we bring back the wolf boy from the jungle permanently, we probably won't be able to make him a Scientist or a Doctor, but it takes only common sense to know that he will start picking up a lot of human qualities, which a wolf would never be able to do. Now this was just to show you how an individual of one species cannot just transform into another species during his entire lifetime. I have not even touched the "change of identity" part here because there is no point going that far here, since I do not wish to start a new debate.

    About just giving your life (memories) to the baby, what you would actually be doing is taking away his own right to build his own memories while he grow up, as if he is some non-living being at your disposal. How can we even think about doing this kind of experiment on a another human being that too an innocent baby? If you really wish to save your memories forever, then just make million copies of that chip and like you said you will leave forever, cause according to your own self, you are your memories.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    " if the memory of a lion is transferred into a goat, will the goat become a lion?"
    why not!(discard the problem of compatible)do your hear the story of wolf child(I don't know how to translate this word 狼孩),the story happened in India,the boy(girl) was raised by wolf since he was infant.the species confusing is often happen in the world.and you can think about why the boy(girl) think he is wolf not human.
    Feral child - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    "When I read your post about capturing the memory of a person into a chip and then transferring it into another, I had hard time digesting the concept."
    you can think it like this way,you provide your gene to the doctor and
    authorize him to produce your organ(the baby).you have the right of the baby and you won't kill the baby just give he a life of yours.
    I'll leave aside the "question of possibility" of what you said and try to explain you the flaw in your "theory" one last time.

    Interesting story you shared, but again you missed my whole point. The boy was raised by wolves so his personality became like a wolf and I've already acknowledged that personality gets affected by the environment. Consider this, if we bring a new born baby wolf into our society, what will happen? we all know we can train him to be like a domesticated dog, but can we teach it to read and write during his lifetime? Drive a car? use a computer etc,etc. Now if we bring back the wolf boy from the jungle permanently, we probably won't be able to make him a Scientist or a Doctor, but it takes only common sense to know that he will start picking up a lot of human qualities, which a wolf would never be able to do. Now this was just to show you how an individual of one species cannot just transform into another species during his entire lifetime. I have not even touched the "change of identity" part here because there is no point going that far here, since I do not wish to start a new debate.

    About just giving your life (memories) to the baby, what you would actually be doing is taking away his own right to build his own memories while he grow up, as if he is some non-living being at your disposal. How can we even think about doing this kind of experiment on a another human being that too an innocent baby? If you really wish to save your memories forever, then just make million copies of that chip and like you said you will leave forever, cause according to your own self, you are your memories.
    yes ,because the boy has human body structure so he can return back to human society,but this no matter with the memory is the only identity to who are you.why he think he is a wolf?do you think about this?and why he can be a man again,because we get he some memory about human(."but can we teach it to read and write during his lifetime? Drive a car? use a computer")

    you know when I watched the series drama CSI.
    legal medical expert cut a body of victim or boil their skull or empty their body like animal in every episode. these activity is not allowed in ancient,it's a big humiliation .but it can be accepted now.why?who give these legal medical expert rights to do this to those innocent people's body?
    by the other way to think about it,if you use your gene to make an organ for transplant,can you accept it?you know what,what are we disputing now is none of our business.the history will go on,and it will give us the answer.the authority(right or wrong) is not in human's hand,it's belong to the nature.

    and chip isn't life.it's a tool,a medium.life is a process,it has yesterday today tomorrow.body can give memory today ,tomorrow.memory just is yesterday

    I found the now situation is very like something happened in medieval age.when someone said we are not the center of the universe,we came from the monkey.most of people couldn't accept it and deny the evidence.they prefer to believed that they wanted.I said this is not proof I was right.I just hope you can open your mind and judge my argument is reasonable or not by objective.I answered all of your question that I thought reasonable.but you still deny it.and we must know the authority is in the nature's hand,not you and me.if it is true,deny it is useless.if it is wrong,even if I say more word,it must not happen.all of my job just say it to you and you judge it by yourself.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 26th, 2013 at 11:59 PM.
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    In my view, evolution is the greatest property of life. Personal immortality would end evolution. So imposing oneself over eternity, over all possible others, seems a crime against life itself, in my view.

    In other words, aren't you being selfish?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    In my view, evolution is the greatest property of life. Personal immortality would end evolution. So imposing oneself over eternity, over all possible others, seems a crime against life itself, in my view.

    In other words, aren't you being selfish?
    all of what I said is not I can control or decide,it's a conclusion from those questions.and these questions is in the way we can't avoid,soon or later.please don't blame me,I just is a normal guy,not devil.i have no power to change the world .I just only found these question and I figure it out.just like I have said before the authority is not in human's hand,it's in nature's(universe,GOD,or something else)hand.for example, the technology have been invented in someday in future,let's speculate what will happen.
    1)I have already known I will die very soon,but I don't want to die.and a doctor told me there is an operation I can try,maybe it will make me live again.what do I think?try,because I have nothing to lost.why not to try.but I need a body yet,what body can I use.so I clone my gene to make a new body.
    2)"I"wake up again,and "I"know what happen,and I found I'm young again and I still remember my lover,my work,my knowledge or something I caring.
    3)many years later,I do this operation again,but this time I depute a gene factory to make an excellent body.and......

    this "I" isn't me(puzzler),is anyone who will die and don't want to die.can you stop it happen forever(can you stop the murder,rape or something guilty)?now do you know what I mean that the authority is not in human's hand?

    and I agree evolution is the essential of the nature.this(mind reading) look like is human's willing but not.because human can't control it.and I think it deeply,I think we will be observer and it is a kind of "go home",the "home" is universe.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 30th, 2013 at 02:04 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    The new explain of Fermi paradox
    Why we are so alone in the universe,this is impossible in statistics.it’s always confused us for a long time.but if we solve the following qusetions.maybe we can find the answer obviously.
    Can we read our memory from our brain by some kind of technology?and can we write it to a new brain of a new body we make it by genic technology or others.let’s assume it’s ture.so there are a series of questions coming.they are divided three parts.
    Part one: personal
    1:if your memory have been removed,who are you?
    2:if your memory have been replaced another one’s memory,who are you?think this question carefully,you can image that when you wake up in every morning.
    3:do you think the memory actually is your soul.( It doesn't matter if you don’t think so)
    4:do you want to prolong your life by this way that read and write your memory?if not,how about the time you will die very soon.I think if I will died and I will try it because I have nothing could be lost.
    Part two:Human
    1:if someone among us want prolong their life by the way read&write memory,does their life have huge advantage to normal person.because they are immortal,they can choose their body and etc.
    2:if 1% person in the world want prolong their life by this way,can they finally replace all human’s life form like now .
    3:if you can be immortal and change your body if you need.you live in the world a few thousands years after.what do you think about the meaning of the live.I have thought this question and I get a result that we will become observer from participator for nature.just watch,hear and feel the running of nature.
    4:can you image where the genic technology or other technology lead us to.the standard of body we choose is more strong, pretty or simple but can receive enough information from the nature that we can feel it better to be a observor.
    Part three: nature
    1:why every one in the earth thought they have soul and the soul is they real life.no one had ever seen or heard it.whatever they have different faith,education,nationality or etc.why this theory is infused into every one’s brain?can we define it is instinct.and every intelligent creature in the universe like or better than human have this instinct?
    2:if we calculate the length of human civilization from the birth of words.there have already been a few thousands years till now.let’s assume we will be observer within 5000 years.(it’s a very long time for human).so current human civilization is totally ten thousands years. The extinction of the Dinosaurs had occurred 66 million years ago.then you can image a scene that you have a book have 6.6 thousands pages.the kind of civilization of human just is one page among it.and we look for it in infinite space and time.the chance that we meet is very impossible.
    3:we all aware not every creature can be intelligent like human.human thing just is occasionaly happening.so maybe other “human” had appeared in the earth in other page.we just missed.so dose alien.the civilization like human that we look for just is a transition stage from participator to observer,the length is very short for the universe.and if we become observer,we just feel the running of the nature.don’t want to interfere in it.
    4:if we don’t like this future,can we stop it?I don’t think so.because no one can stop the science go forward.and there must have someone to try it when the read-mind technology is matured.
    5:Is there other way we can go?no,because the memory is the only answer for the soul,not DNA,face or something else.and the soul is human real life.no one can deny it.so if we can ,we must do.
    Our brain is an organ, it is developed for some needs, like all organs it has a structure, memory is nothing more than a vital part of brain which is necessary for proper functioning of brain like computer or mobile. We cannot give it other meanings .
    "No law of Physics is surprising & can not beat commonsense until it does not give enough explanation logically or I did not understand it rightly or simply it is wrong "
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Our brain is an organ, it is developed for some needs, like all organs it has a structure, memory is nothing more than a vital part of brain which is necessary for proper functioning of brain like computer or mobile. We cannot give it other meanings .
    maybe you do not like computer brain.it will so boring to you.
    our body can react with the environment.like temperature,pressure,light,smell or something else.I call it is chemical body.all of our feeling is come from chemical reaction.if we have a computer body,it can't react with environment,so you will boring.no exciting.(I call it material body).but it has its own advantage,that is because it can't react with environment,so it can travel in the universe safely.like our spaceship.
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    Our brain is incredibly versatile.

    It makes decisions in so many aspects of our lives.

    We pick out what we eat, write, clean, wash read, learn, and I firmly blieve sometimes how long a person holds on to life for a specific date before they let go is all a partof our brain, as well as biological things, such as sex is also a brain function.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    all of what I said is not I can control or decide,it's a conclusion from those questions.and these questions is in the way we can't avoid,soon or later.
    OK I understand. That's an ethical and reasonable position.

    Let's do a thought experiment...

    I guess you agree evolution makes different people, and as times change some of these different people fit better with the times. Now let's suppose the kind of immortality you describe was already possible in the year 1227, and one man opted for it. Suppose he's still alive today. What's he doing? He doesn't type on a computer or read books or talk gently to children - he prays to a mountain, sharpens his dagger, and steals horses to build his army. He invites virgins to join his harem but these modern females have attitudes. The police are looking for him, he was last seen in the park throwing rocks at swans. Doesn't it seem cruel to make this guy live beyond his times? To fit this man to modern times you must change almost every aspect of his personality. You should change his beliefs and sentiments for each generation, so he fits the current society. You might have to erase his memory so he doesn't hate the man he used to be.

    Wouldn't anyone who begins immortality now, find the distant future just as unlivable? Why not?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    yes ,because the boy has human body structure so he can return back to human society,but this no matter with the memory is the only identity to who are you.why he think he is a wolf?do you think about this?and why he can be a man again,because we get he some memory about human(."but can we teach it to read and write during his lifetime? Drive a car? use a computer")

    you know when I watched the series drama CSI.
    legal medical expert cut a body of victim or boil their skull or empty their body like animal in every episode. these activity is not allowed in ancient,it's a big humiliation .but it can be accepted now.why?who give these legal medical expert rights to do this to those innocent people's body?
    by the other way to think about it,if you use your gene to make an organ for transplant,can you accept it?you know what,what are we disputing now is none of our business.the history will go on,and it will give us the answer.the authority(right or wrong) is not in human's hand,it's belong to the nature.

    and chip isn't life.it's a tool,a medium.life is a process,it has yesterday today tomorrow.body can give memory today ,tomorrow.memory just is yesterday

    I found the now situation is very like something happened in medieval age.when someone said we are not the center of the universe,we came from the monkey.most of people couldn't accept it and deny the evidence.they prefer to believed that they wanted.I said this is not proof I was right.I just hope you can open your mind and judge my argument is reasonable or not by objective.I answered all of your question that I thought reasonable.but you still deny it.and we must know the authority is in the nature's hand,not you and me.if it is true,deny it is useless.if it is wrong,even if I say more word,it must not happen.all of my job just say it to you and you judge it by yourself.
    Well of course, life is a process (of past, present and future) which each one of us experiences individually. But you seem to imply that we ourselves are the process, and not the ones experiencing the process and that's where I split with you. I believe that we experience this process while awaiting to enter yet another one which is a different one, free from the bondage of time. Infact I like to share with you a saying which goes something like this "We are not the physical beings awaiting the spiritual experience, we are the spiritual beings experiencing the physical"!

    (by the way, you compared the little babies to dead bodies which was a stretch to say the least).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    all of what I said is not I can control or decide,it's a conclusion from those questions.and these questions is in the way we can't avoid,soon or later.
    OK I understand. That's an ethical and reasonable position.

    Let's do a thought experiment...

    I guess you agree evolution makes different people, and as times change some of these different people fit better with the times. Now let's suppose the kind of immortality you describe was already possible in the year 1227, and one man opted for it. Suppose he's still alive today. What's he doing? He doesn't type on a computer or read books or talk gently to children - he prays to a mountain, sharpens his dagger, and steals horses to build his army. He invites virgins to join his harem but these modern females have attitudes. The police are looking for him, he was last seen in the park throwing rocks at swans. Doesn't it seem cruel to make this guy live beyond his times? To fit this man to modern times you must change almost every aspect of his personality. You should change his beliefs and sentiments for each generation, so he fits the current society. You might have to erase his memory so he doesn't hate the man he used to be.

    Wouldn't anyone who begins immortality now, find the distant future just as unlivable? Why not?
    you didn't understand what will happen when we being immortality.there are two points you lost 1)gene technology and AI(though I have said computer body will get boring live,but it has its own use).so you will make a body less depend on resource and energy.so you can make your live more free so that you will become the observer. 2)the thing will be happened to the whole human,not some special people.so we are equal.
    you can image if you live in the world for 500 years,what do you need?there is a phrase in Chinese--- 绚烂之极归于平淡(after splendid will be silence)。the current people's life is too short so that can't get this level.
    and the guy you mentioned still alive in now he will be the most gentle men.even if you beat him,he will not fight back.because you are nothing to him.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 27th, 2013 at 09:19 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    "We are not the physical beings awaiting the spiritual experience, we are the spiritual beings experiencing the physical"!

    (by the way, you compared the little babies to dead bodies which was a stretch to say the least).
    I like these words,we think the spiritual is most important to us.and we always can't figure out what is spiritual,and for my theory the spiritual is the feeling of brain run the memory(cpu run the data)
    and for the baby and the dead bodies,do you hear the story of kill baby for contribute to GOD(神 shen) in ancient.and in ancient China if you touch my forefathers dead body(dig from the tomb or cut or something else),that was the biggest humiliation for my clan.I just want to say the ethic is not exist in the nature,it was made by human and adapt to human's society.so you think it is a big thing right now will be nothing tomorrow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    "We are not the physical beings awaiting the spiritual experience, we are the spiritual beings experiencing the physical"!
    Ooh, unsupported claim.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    "We are not the physical beings awaiting the spiritual experience, we are the spiritual beings experiencing the physical"!

    (by the way, you compared the little babies to dead bodies which was a stretch to say the least).
    I like these words,we think the spiritual is most important to us.and we always can't figure out what is spiritual,and for my theory the spiritual is the feeling of brain run the memory(cpu run the data)
    and for the baby and the dead bodies,do you hear the story of kill baby for contribute to GOD(神 shen) in ancient.and in ancient China if you touch my forefathers dead body(dig from the tomb or cut or something else),that was the biggest humiliation for my clan.I just want to say the ethic is not exist in the nature,it was made by human and adapt to human's society.so you think it is a big thing right now will be nothing tomorrow.
    I do know about some people (not just in China) in the ancient time doing all sorts of inhumane things to other humans in the name of sacrifice, but we evolved out of it not just to simply change the method of being inhumane, which is exactly what your "theory" proposes.

    In your view the spirit may be the feeling of brain or memory and nothing else, but in my view the spirit is the very essence of our being which while in a physical form uses the feeling, the brain, the memory as tools because the spirit is limited in the bondage of time during this stage. That is exactly why I used the example of eyes, the vision and actually Seeing in my first post of this thread, where I showed you the difference between each one of it. But anyway you have your views and I have mine and as I said we are bond within the limits of time in our present stage, so only time will bring forth the reality. No point in dragging the discussion any further. Take Care!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    "We are not the physical beings awaiting the spiritual experience, we are the spiritual beings experiencing the physical"!
    Ooh, unsupported claim.
    Dywyddyr, this is in the woo-woo philosophy section. You can't really support woo philosophy.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Actually philosophy demands support.
    But, yeah, woo doesn't.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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  80. #79  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    all of what I said is not I can control or decide,it's a conclusion from those questions.and these questions is in the way we can't avoid,soon or later.
    OK I understand. That's an ethical and reasonable position.

    Let's do a thought experiment...

    I guess you agree evolution makes different people, and as times change some of these different people fit better with the times. Now let's suppose the kind of immortality you describe was already possible in the year 1227, and one man opted for it. Suppose he's still alive today. What's he doing? He doesn't type on a computer or read books or talk gently to children - he prays to a mountain, sharpens his dagger, and steals horses to build his army. He invites virgins to join his harem but these modern females have attitudes. The police are looking for him, he was last seen in the park throwing rocks at swans. Doesn't it seem cruel to make this guy live beyond his times? To fit this man to modern times you must change almost every aspect of his personality. You should change his beliefs and sentiments for each generation, so he fits the current society. You might have to erase his memory so he doesn't hate the man he used to be.

    Wouldn't anyone who begins immortality now, find the distant future just as unlivable? Why not?
    you didn't understand what will happen when we being immortality.there are two points you lost 1)gene technology and AI(though I have said computer body will get boring live,but it has its own use).so you will make a body less depend on resource and energy.so you can make your live more free so that you will become the observer. 2)the thing will be happened to the whole human,not some special people.so we are equal.
    you can image if you live in the world for 500 years,what do you need?there is a phrase in Chinese--- 绚烂之极归于平淡(after splendid will be silence)。the current people's life is too short so that can't get this level.
    and the guy you mentioned still alive in now he will be the most gentle men.even if you beat him,he will not fight back.because you are nothing to him.
    This utopia of eternal silence sounds as good as death. It's a garden of stone.

    This is a common theme in stories. The forces of evil want to deaden life to preserve life. The heroes strive against them, for a free and open future. If the heroes are made to live like robots, they resist in little ways. When the heroes win at the end you see seeds sprout and children play; so you know the cycle of life, and evolution, survived.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    This is a common theme in stories. The forces of evil want to deaden life to preserve life. The heroes strive against them, for a free and open future. If the heroes are made to live like robots, they resist in little ways. When the heroes win at the end you see seeds sprout and children play; so you know the cycle of life, and evolution, survived.
    the silence is not mean death.just like you have said" you see seeds sprout and children play; so you know the cycle of life, and evolution, survived.",we will be the observer to feel the running of the nature.but our desire will silence(for we choose the body has low desire),so we can feel the peace and silence in our heart.
    do you always feel your memory hungry?maybe you never notice it, if you don't see any kind of screen one day,you will feel bad.if you do this long time,you will be crazy.our memory like our body,it can be hungry,sex(sex is a process for exchange
    genetic information,just like we exchange our information by communication),grow up,metabolism(you forget something and add new information)protect itself(so I can't persuade you easily) or something else.
    so in the future our live's main point will change from body to the memory(information).and information is infinite.don't like material or energy.so we will silence for the objective universe,but our desire will transfer to the information.do you like travel?how huge the galaxy is and how huge the universe is.you have enough time and more freedom body and ways to explore it.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 27th, 2013 at 09:48 PM.
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    I was about to ask "If there's no pain or desire, why do anything?" but you answered:
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    our desire will transfer to the information
    So the struggle of life will become a struggle of ideas?

    This sounds like hermits who stay in their rooms reading all day. Am I right?

    It's good for some people to be like that. Some can be great thinkers. But they lack real-world feedback so many get lost. For humanity that's an acceptable loss because as I suggested a few of them will have great thoughts no one else can. If we're all like that, what's to stop us from going crazy?
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    I was about to ask "If there's no pain or desire, why do anything?" but you answered:
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    our desire will transfer to the information
    So the struggle of life will become a struggle of ideas?

    This sounds like hermits who stay in their rooms reading all day. Am I right?

    It's good for some people to be like that. Some can be great thinkers. But they lack real-world feedback so many get lost. For humanity that's an acceptable loss because as I suggested a few of them will have great thoughts no one else can. If we're all like that, what's to stop us from going crazy?
    no,not sit in the room to read newspaper or watch TV.you have many ways to take part in the real-word.like this:PLOS ONE: If I Were You: Perceptual Illusion of Body Swapping(I don't explain it ,you can image it by youself).or something else.there are a lot of ways to observe the world.you are "superman"(you can choose your body to adapted the various environment,and you will never die just only you have back-up your memory,if you die you can continue your life just like WOW)
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    I still think this goes against evolution, because evolution depends on both life and death, success and failure. Your utopia tries to do better by taking away death and failure. Then people last forever, have no cares, don't evolve.

    Is that good enough for you? I'd rather have future generations better than myself.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    I still think this goes against evolution, because evolution depends on both life and death, success and failure. Your utopia tries to do better by taking away death and failure. Then people last forever, have no cares, don't evolve.

    Is that good enough for you? I'd rather have future generations better than myself.
    you worried too much.we can't against the nature.do you think all what I have said is come from my brain without ground?no,it's come from the nature.the conditions and the time is enough so I can figure these question out.even if I didn't say these.someone else must say these soon or later.
    if you live for 1000 years,do you think you still is Pong?most information of Pong maybe vanished by forget.so the Pong has already died.after 1000 years(or 100 years),you must be another guy.and why are you worry about evolution,I think the evolution is a change to adapt to the environment's change.you will always change and you will always adapt to the environment.
    what about you want ,I want is nonsense for the nature.we can't against the nature even if we think we have intelligence.single person is a person,he can has his own will.seven billions persons is an objective matter,it has the nature's will.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 28th, 2013 at 10:08 PM.
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    I believe in re-incarnation. It certainly isn't scientific, to my knowledge. I think we are re-cycled, so to speak. I do NOT believe in heaven, hell, purgatory or outhouses in the sky. I don't believe in the Pearly Gates either, or angels, or in Peter, Paul and Mary, except in the musical side of things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    if you live for 1000 years,do you think you still is Pong?most information of Pong maybe vanished by forget.so the Pong has already died.after 1000 years(or 100 years),you must be another guy.
    I think just the opposite, regarding how the mind develops. At 0 years I was mostly any baby, with very little unique personality. At 5 years I was thinking hard about tying shoes. At 15 years I was thinking all sorts of things, but I must have "forgot" how to tie shoes because if you ask I can't explain how I do it. A 5-year-old child in my mind ties shoelaces for me. Now at 42 I've got so many of these little-Pongs in mind taking care of everyday stuff, I don't always know where I am. I might cross traffic lights, stop to buy milk, I can't recall because the parts of me that did it before always do it again... and they've grown quick and accurate without help from the "Pong" you're talking to. This is how the mind develops, I believe. It doesn't move through time - rather it hardens like the wood of a tree, the tender new growth unaware it'll soon be hardened and supporting fresh growth. So to answer your question: Yes, after 1000 years I will be 1000x more uniquely me, and set in my ways, than 0 years. Eventually my mind will have developed so much, I'll have very little consciousness in the present moment.

    You see I believe the mind grows through life in a way that can't keep growing forever. It's not age or illness that causes this; it's the conscious thinking about things that ultimately works itself out of the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    why are you worry about evolution,I think the evolution is a change to adapt to the environment's change.you will always change and you will always adapt to the environment.
    You'll change and adapt less as your mind develops. I promise.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    [QUOTE=Pong;435046]
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    if you live for 1000 years,do you think you still is Pong?most information of Pong maybe vanished by forget.so the Pong has already died.after 1000 years(or 100 years),you must be another guy.
    I think just the opposite, regarding how the mind develops. At 0 years I was mostly any baby, with very little unique personality. At 5 years I was thinking hard about tying shoes. At 15 years I was thinking all sorts of things, but I must have "forgot" how to tie shoes because if you ask I can't explain how I do it. A 5-year-old child in my mind ties shoelaces for me. Now at 42 I've got so many of these little-Pongs in mind taking care of everyday stuff, I don't always know where I am. I might cross traffic lights, stop to buy milk, I can't recall because the parts of me that did it before always do it again... and they've grown quick and accurate without help from the "Pong" you're talking to. This is how the mind develops, I believe. It doesn't move through time - rather it hardens like the wood of a tree, the tender new growth unaware it'll soon be hardened and supporting fresh growth. So to answer your question: Yes, after 1000 years I will be 1000x more uniquely me, and set in my ways, than 0 years. Eventually my mind will have developed so much, I'll have very little consciousness in the present moment.

    You see I believe the mind grows through life in a way that can't keep growing forever. It's not age or illness that causes this; it's the conscious thinking about things that ultimately works itself out of the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    why are you worry about evolution,I think the evolution is a change to adapt to the environment's change.you will always change and you will always adapt to the environment.
    You'll change and adapt less as your mind develops. I promise.[/QUOTE I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE that a baby age 0 has no personality. Sorry. As a mother, my children had a personality that is reflective to their adult years at age 0 days. Did they grow in other ways, with age, yes. HOWEVER, they both had a very distinctive and individual personality from the time of their birth.
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    [QUOTE=babe;435049]
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    if you live for 1000 years,do you think you still is Pong?most information of Pong maybe vanished by forget.so the Pong has already died.after 1000 years(or 100 years),you must be another guy.
    I think just the opposite, regarding how the mind develops. At 0 years I was mostly any baby, with very little unique personality. At 5 years I was thinking hard about tying shoes. At 15 years I was thinking all sorts of things, but I must have "forgot" how to tie shoes because if you ask I can't explain how I do it. A 5-year-old child in my mind ties shoelaces for me. Now at 42 I've got so many of these little-Pongs in mind taking care of everyday stuff, I don't always know where I am. I might cross traffic lights, stop to buy milk, I can't recall because the parts of me that did it before always do it again... and they've grown quick and accurate without help from the "Pong" you're talking to. This is how the mind develops, I believe. It doesn't move through time - rather it hardens like the wood of a tree, the tender new growth unaware it'll soon be hardened and supporting fresh growth. So to answer your question: Yes, after 1000 years I will be 1000x more uniquely me, and set in my ways, than 0 years. Eventually my mind will have developed so much, I'll have very little consciousness in the present moment.

    You see I believe the mind grows through life in a way that can't keep growing forever. It's not age or illness that causes this; it's the conscious thinking about things that ultimately works itself out of the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    why are you worry about evolution,I think the evolution is a change to adapt to the environment's change.you will always change and you will always adapt to the environment.
    You'll change and adapt less as your mind develops. I promise.[/QUOTE I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE that a baby age 0 has no personality. Sorry. As a mother, my children had a personality that is reflective to their adult years at age 0 days. Did they grow in other ways, with age, yes. HOWEVER, they both had a very distinctive and individual personality from the time of their birth.
    personality part come from the physical body,and part come from experience(memory).if you baby is stronger than other baby and like talk,he will be confidence.and personality can't be used by identity who you are.just only is a feature for person. ps: the identity is we identity ourself(who am I) not other people identity us(who are you).

    if Pong live for 1000,you have already changed many times body.and maybe the name "Pong" has lost a few hundreds years ago even you don't remember Pong's face.you will have an abundant of various memory.you are just 42(I am 38) now and you still remember little-Pong's memory because the length is too short.
    and you should know we choose and make the body,so the body will fit my mind and the environment.we have the initiative.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 28th, 2013 at 08:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    You'll change and adapt less as your mind develops. I promise.
    I agree! There is a possibility that trying to fulfill "the dream of living forever" in proposed manner might actually become a reason for extinction of mankind. Centuries later we might be faced with a problem that "30 year old newborn babies" are unable to evolve at the required speed to adapt to changed environment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE that a baby age 0 has no personality. Sorry. As a mother, my children had a personality that is reflective to their adult years at age 0 days. Did they grow in other ways, with age, yes. HOWEVER, they both had a very distinctive and individual personality from the time of their birth.
    I belong to a family so big that I have actually interacted(can't find the right word) with several babies and I agree that each one is so different that it can be said that they are born with their own individual personality. I guess this was one of the reasons I felt such an urge to respond to OP and try to convince him how unethical it would be to manipulate the nature's way of continuation of life, if it were to be possible in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE that a baby age 0 has no personality. Sorry. As a mother, my children had a personality that is reflective to their adult years at age 0 days. Did they grow in other ways, with age, yes. HOWEVER, they both had a very distinctive and individual personality from the time of their birth.
    I belong to a family so big that I have actually interacted(can't find the right word) with several babies and I agree that each one is so different that it can be said that they are born with their own individual personality. I guess this was one of the reasons I felt such an urge to respond to OP and try to convince him how unethical it would be to manipulate the nature's way of continuation of life, if it were to be possible in the first place.
    I have to say again
    1)ethical is not existence in the nature,it's made by human and it's always change to adapt human's society and human's development.
    2)I have just said a matter that will be happen in the way of human's development.it's not be controlled or decided by me.there must have some guy think he has right for his gene and relative product(or else he use whose baby to prolong his life).so don't judge me for it.if it will be happened and existence,it must be the nature's will.not anyone's will.just like Darwin's theory"natural selection"
    3)we have own face,fingerprint,DNA,personality or something else.but if you don't sense of these(I don't know my DNA,fingerprint,and I define my personality different other people define mine) ,you still know who you are.but if you can't sense your memory you don't know who you are at once.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 28th, 2013 at 10:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE that a baby age 0 has no personality. Sorry. As a mother, my children had a personality that is reflective to their adult years at age 0 days. Did they grow in other ways, with age, yes. HOWEVER, they both had a very distinctive and individual personality from the time of their birth.
    I belong to a family so big that I have actually interacted(can't find the right word) with several babies and I agree that each one is so different that it can be said that they are born with their own individual personality. I guess this was one of the reasons I felt such an urge to respond to OP and try to convince him how unethical it would be to manipulate the nature's way of continuation of life, if it were to be possible in the first place.
    My parents were foster parents. We had up to 3 newborns at a time, growing up. EACH of those babies had a distinct personality that even myself, as a child of 7 could recognize.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE that a baby age 0 has no personality. Sorry. As a mother, my children had a personality that is reflective to their adult years at age 0 days. Did they grow in other ways, with age, yes. HOWEVER, they both had a very distinctive and individual personality from the time of their birth.
    I belong to a family so big that I have actually interacted(can't find the right word) with several babies and I agree that each one is so different that it can be said that they are born with their own individual personality. I guess this was one of the reasons I felt such an urge to respond to OP and try to convince him how unethical it would be to manipulate the nature's way of continuation of life, if it were to be possible in the first place.
    I have to say again
    1)ethical is not existence in the nature,it's made by human and it's always change to adapt human's society and human's development.
    2)I have just said a matter that will be happen in the way of human's development.it's not be controlled or decided by me.there must have some guy think he has right for his gene and relative product(or else he use whose baby to prolong his life).so don't judge me for it.if it will be happened and existence,it must be the nature's will.not anyone's will.just like Darwin's theory"natural selection"
    3)we have own face,fingerprint,DNA,personality or something else.but if you don't sense of these(I don't know my DNA,fingerprint,and I define my personality different other people define mine) ,you still know who you are.but if you can't sense your memory you don't know who you are at once.
    I do not have any reason to judge you, I only disagree with some of the things you said because I do not believe that humans are are robots with memory. The reasons for me to not to believe so are in some of my previous posts which if you read them with open mind then you will see.

    Talking about development in future, I do not know how many mothers in future will willingly subject their baby to what you have proposed, but I think vast majority will not (you cannot bring up the past and mention its ignorance and then claim in the name of development that the humanity will return to the state of ignorance, but in a different form). Now if you talk about things such as cloning and believe that that's how all our future generation will conceive their children, then basically humans at that stage would have evolved out of humanity, hence such a future does not even apply to us real humans. (which I believe will never happen anyway).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    I do not have any reason to judge you, I only disagree with some of the things you said because I do not believe that humans are are robots with memory. The reasons for me to not to believe so are in some of my previous posts which if you read them with open mind then you will see.

    Talking about development in future, I do not know how many mothers in future will willingly subject their baby to what you have proposed, but I think vast majority will not (you cannot bring up the past and mention its ignorance and then claim in the name of development that the humanity will return to the state of ignorance, but in a different form). Now if you talk about things such as cloning and believe that that's how all our future generation will conceive their children, then basically humans at that stage would have evolved out of humanity, hence such a future does not even apply to us real humans. (which I believe will never happen anyway).
    no one can claim other people in the name of development.because if it is belong to nature then it must happen don't need human's interference.
    I think the sequence like this,ps: I call those people who had mind-reading is TA(chinese spelling,the mean is she ,he or it)
    1)some rich or powerful people do this at the beginning.they have resource and power to make it.
    2)in the beginning they maybe control mind-reading as a business.but later they will find this is bad idea,because other people who still in the original state still live with them in the same world.and their miserable things(disease,starve,or something else) around TA.and TA's desire and view of live will change.so TA will open the way of mind-reading to normal people.those who don't want prolong their life by mind-reading will dead in nature way.so TA will replace the original human to the new human.and the world will become a paradise for human and other creature in the earth(because human's desire is low)
    many people don't want to death.the desire is the power to promote TA's appearance.
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    Man is not like robot of computer
    But many aspects of working models of computer/robots match human beings
    In someway both can be compared
    Specially
    Input : Both takes input.
    Storage: Both store data and resut
    Processing: Both have processing capabilities
    Energy :Both need energy i.e./food,electricity
    Output:Both gives output

    Suppose a person is kept in a jail by birh and he is not given any input during all his life
    This will make his big effect on his thoughts , beliefs, feelings etc
    Possibly he will not know much about God or religion as we
    "No law of Physics is surprising & can not beat commonsense until it does not give enough explanation logically or I did not understand it rightly or simply it is wrong "
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Man is not like robot of computer
    Etc.
    Suppose a person is kept in a jail by birh and he is not given any input during all his life
    In other words a limited input = limited "output".

    Possibly he will not know much about God or religion as we
    The rest of us don't know anything about god, and all we know about religion is what we've invented.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    someone had been captured in an isolate area,he almost forgot his language.limited input will make man be moron .

    I don't know here is what kind people.are there some experts in here.I want put the discussion go further.I had some question confuse me for a long time.I said "go home"before.actually I can't explain what is "go home"but I have some mysterious feeling about it .here the questions it are:
    1) life is a process,carry on past, present and future.so if we can give the present and future to life,we can consider the life is going on.we had a discussion about put memory(yesterday) into a new body to prolong the life.the way can give the yesterday(memory) a present and future.if we put the memory into internet,we just change a way to continue the information for memory.can we think it is still a life and it will be happy to live in the internet?(though I have said live in computer will boring,but maybe it will have another kind of live and "exciting")
    2)we are living in a 4d(length,wide,high,time) world.we obey the rules of the nature because we rely on our body to live.the body is a product by nature,so we can't disobey the rules of nature.but if we live in the internet,all the rules will be changed.no 4d sense,no physical rules.you can use your bare hands shot a light beam easily like online game.
    3)if we live in the internet,so we can't conscious the reality universe.so I don't know how to think about it.it's too beyond to my knowledge.
    4)we will be observer(this is a process,we make more lower our desire and we get more close to the observer),I don't know the terminal of observer will be what kind of form.will it be a kind of something we can understand(maybe TA will mix together the universe because maybe there is no limited to the observer) .this is I feel "go home" but can't explain.because it too faraway from me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    someone had been captured in an isolate area,he almost forgot his language.limited input will make man be moron .

    I don't know here is what kind people.are there some experts in here.I want put the discussion go further.I had some question confuse me for a long time.I said "go home"before.actually I can't explain what is "go home"but I have some mysterious feeling about it .here the questions it are:
    1) life is a process,carry on past, present and future.so if we can give the present and future to life,we can consider the life is going on.we had a discussion about put memory(yesterday) into a new body to prolong the life.the way can give the yesterday(memory) a present and future.if we put the memory into internet,we just change a way to continue the information for memory.can we think it is still a life and it will be happy to live in the internet?(though I have said live in computer will boring,but maybe it will have another kind of live and "exciting")
    2)we are living in a 4d(length,wide,high,time) world.we obey the rules of the nature because we rely on our body to live.the body is a product by nature,so we can't disobey the rules of nature.but if we live in the internet,all the rules will be changed.no 4d sense,no physical rules.you can use your bare hands shot a light beam easily like online game.
    3)if we live in the internet,so we can't conscious the reality universe.so I don't know how to think about it.it's too beyond to my knowledge.
    4)we will be observer(this is a process,we make more lower our desire and we get more close to the observer),I don't know the terminal of observer will be what kind of form.will it be a kind of something we can understand(maybe TA will mix together the universe because maybe there is no limited to the observer) .this is I feel "go home" but can't explain.because it too faraway from me.
    Mr Puzzler why are describing rules of nature a different thing
    You, me & computer etc all are parts Nature and
    we all follow rules of nature
    There are some places in brain in some biochemical forms which stores data,information may feelings also
    that is necessary for proper working of brain

    Memory is nothing more than it
    "No law of Physics is surprising & can not beat commonsense until it does not give enough explanation logically or I did not understand it rightly or simply it is wrong "
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Man is not like robot of computer
    Etc.
    Suppose a person is kept in a jail by birh and he is not given any input during all his life
    In other words a limited input = limited "output".

    Possibly he will not know much about God or religion as we
    The rest of us don't know anything about god, and all we know about religion is what we've invented.
    right
    "No law of Physics is surprising & can not beat commonsense until it does not give enough explanation logically or I did not understand it rightly or simply it is wrong "
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    someone had been captured in an isolate area,he almost forgot his language.limited input will make man be moron .

    I don't know here is what kind people.are there some experts in here.I want put the discussion go further.I had some question confuse me for a long time.I said "go home"before.actually I can't explain what is "go home"but I have some mysterious feeling about it .here the questions it are:
    1) life is a process,carry on past, present and future.so if we can give the present and future to life,we can consider the life is going on.we had a discussion about put memory(yesterday) into a new body to prolong the life.the way can give the yesterday(memory) a present and future.if we put the memory into internet,we just change a way to continue the information for memory.can we think it is still a life and it will be happy to live in the internet?(though I have said live in computer will boring,but maybe it will have another kind of live and "exciting")
    2)we are living in a 4d(length,wide,high,time) world.we obey the rules of the nature because we rely on our body to live.the body is a product by nature,so we can't disobey the rules of nature.but if we live in the internet,all the rules will be changed.no 4d sense,no physical rules.you can use your bare hands shot a light beam easily like online game.
    3)if we live in the internet,so we can't conscious the reality universe.so I don't know how to think about it.it's too beyond to my knowledge.
    4)we will be observer(this is a process,we make more lower our desire and we get more close to the observer),I don't know the terminal of observer will be what kind of form.will it be a kind of something we can understand(maybe TA will mix together the universe because maybe there is no limited to the observer) .this is I feel "go home" but can't explain.because it too faraway from me.
    Mr Puzzler why are describing rules of nature a different thing
    You, me & computer etc all are parts Nature and
    we all follow rules of nature
    There are some places in brain in some biochemical forms which stores data,information may feelings also
    that is necessary for proper working of brain

    Memory is nothing more than it
    How is a COMPUTER a part of Nature?
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