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Thread: The Key

  1. #101  
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    I am using word "Nature " in different sence not in common classificaiton sense Nature is resposible for all these thing from computer to airplane From elephant to human being
    "No law of Physics is surprising & can not beat commonsense until it does not give enough explanation logically or I did not understand it rightly or simply it is wrong "
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  2. #102  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    I am using word "Nature " in different sence not in common classificaiton sense Nature is resposible for all these thing from computer to airplane From elephant to human being
    Mahalo for your explanation. I have made it quite clear I am not a scientist. Theatre Arts lady here. I appreciate the clarification.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    someone had been captured in an isolate area,he almost forgot his language.limited input will make man be moron .

    I don't know here is what kind people.are there some experts in here.I want put the discussion go further.I had some question confuse me for a long time.I said "go home"before.actually I can't explain what is "go home"but I have some mysterious feeling about it .here the questions it are:
    1) life is a process,carry on past, present and future.so if we can give the present and future to life,we can consider the life is going on.we had a discussion about put memory(yesterday) into a new body to prolong the life.the way can give the yesterday(memory) a present and future.if we put the memory into internet,we just change a way to continue the information for memory.can we think it is still a life and it will be happy to live in the internet?(though I have said live in computer will boring,but maybe it will have another kind of live and "exciting")
    2)we are living in a 4d(length,wide,high,time) world.we obey the rules of the nature because we rely on our body to live.the body is a product by nature,so we can't disobey the rules of nature.but if we live in the internet,all the rules will be changed.no 4d sense,no physical rules.you can use your bare hands shot a light beam easily like online game.
    3)if we live in the internet,so we can't conscious the reality universe.so I don't know how to think about it.it's too beyond to my knowledge.
    4)we will be observer(this is a process,we make more lower our desire and we get more close to the observer),I don't know the terminal of observer will be what kind of form.will it be a kind of something we can understand(maybe TA will mix together the universe because maybe there is no limited to the observer) .this is I feel "go home" but can't explain.because it too faraway from me.
    Mr Puzzler why are describing rules of nature a different thing
    You, me & computer etc all are parts Nature and
    we all follow rules of nature
    There are some places in brain in some biochemical forms which stores data,information may feelings also
    that is necessary for proper working of brain

    Memory is nothing more than it
    do you know what's my meaning?maybe my English can't completely show my meaning.the internet is another "universe"to the reality universe if you live in.the computer,the server belong to the reality universe.but they create a new virtual world.in there all rules will be changed(do you play online game).in my theory the life is a process,if only we can continue the process,give it today and tomorrow.the life will be considered go on.the virtual world can work it too.give the memory(yesterday) today and tomorrow.for example my memory be putted into the internet and absorb the information from internet by some way(logic).it will look like a creature in the internet because it will grow up and has it own live style.but it can't decern the reality universe because it has no way to contact the reality universe(can you understand).
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  4. #104  
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    How rules are changed in Internet world?
    Human Memory is just a memory & does nothing more than storing information
    It is similar to computer memory in working aspects
    "No law of Physics is surprising & can not beat commonsense until it does not give enough explanation logically or I did not understand it rightly or simply it is wrong "
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  5. #105  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    How rules are changed in Internet world?
    Human Memory is just a memory & does nothing more than storing information
    It is similar to computer memory in working aspects
    have you seen what i posted before?
    1)the memory is the only thing can identity ourselves.
    2)life for us(intelligence creature) is a process,not a substance.the process include past,present and future.memory is the past.and body can give memory today and yesterday.so if we can extract our memory plus body.we can prolong our own life.
    3)human body just be composed by some atoms,like C,H,O,N etc as you view.but life's meaning for us not these.so memory is a memory but memory's meaning for us not this(memory is memory) yet.and I think if I use your way to study the universe will be so simple.the universe is the universe,the sun is the sun.
    4)in online game role can fly,can shot a light beam by bare hands.these are never happen in the reality world.we make the internet's rules.and if we change the rules I think the role can't aware it.the roles will think it is nature.maybe like universe to us.
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  6. #106  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Man is not like robot of computer
    But many aspects of working models of computer/robots match human beings
    In someway both can be compared
    Specially
    Input : Both takes input.
    Storage: Both store data and resut
    Processing: Both have processing capabilities
    Energy :Both need energy i.e./food,electricity
    Output:Both gives output

    Suppose a person is kept in a jail by birh and he is not given any input during all his life
    This will make his big effect on his thoughts , beliefs, feelings etc
    Possibly he will not know much about God or religion as we
    Yes, they can be compared and some similarities are there but you seem to overlook the very basic difference such as human's consciousness, human's awareness, human's emotions, human's free will to an extent, human's ability to not just store the information as memories but to actually understand it, human's ability to gain knowledge, the concept of right and wrong, power of thought, power of comprehension itself, etc...

    According to Puzzler, memory is the very reason that human is able to do all of what I wrote above, but if that were true then we should have already invented a robot with all of these human qualities. We are not able to invent such a robot because we cannot create the very essence of human being, the essence which has the power of comprehending the memories and which is the very reason of all of the human qualities that I wrote above.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Yes, they can be compared and some similarities are there but you seem to overlook the very basic difference such as human's consciousness, human's awareness, human's emotions, human's free will to an extent, human's ability to not just store the information as memories but to actually understand it, human's ability to gain knowledge, the concept of right and wrong, power of thought, power of comprehension itself, etc...
    Assuming we actually have free will.
    And that we'll never solve the other "problems".

    We are not able to invent such a robot because we cannot create the very essence of human being
    Oh, supposition.
    This could well be equivalent to someone ~100 years ago claiming that we can't invent a flying machine because we can't create the "very essence of a bird".
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Yes, they can be compared and some similarities are there but you seem to overlook the very basic difference such as human's consciousness, human's awareness, human's emotions, human's free will to an extent, human's ability to not just store the information as memories but to actually understand it, human's ability to gain knowledge, the concept of right and wrong, power of thought, power of comprehension itself, etc...

    According to Puzzler, memory is the very reason that human is able to do all of what I wrote above, but if that were true then we should have already invented a robot with all of these human qualities. We are not able to invent such a robot because we cannot create the very essence of human being, the essence which has the power of comprehending the memories and which is the very reason of all of the human qualities that I wrote above.
    Good news Puzzler! Dywyddyr solve all the problems of using a real human baby for your experiment. Just invent a robot with all the qualities I wrote above then do your memory transfer. How did you not think about such a simple process of inventing a robo-human?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post

    Good news Puzzler! Dywyddyr solve all the problems of using a real human baby for your experiment. Just invent a robot with all the qualities I wrote above then do your memory transfer. How did you not think about such a simple process of inventing a robo-human?
    please look at my 13 floor post.if we can design more detail to the program.the robot will look like human.but it won't have essence of human being.because we are in different environment and have different desire.
    this is I have said if we live in internet by some way(logic).we can make a program imitate the reality desire.we take our memory as data base.the program will be a new world for our memory.but they can't feel 4D sense in there and all rules can be changed.
    and what is "
    essence of human being",I think it just is a gift from the nature.climb up the tree and eat of fruits or play with Iphone and sit in office you always think this is live of human being just in different stage.we unconditional accept the gift come from nature.
    Last edited by puzzler; June 30th, 2013 at 10:47 PM.
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  10. #110  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post

    Good news Puzzler! Dywyddyr solve all the problems of using a real human baby for your experiment. Just invent a robot with all the qualities I wrote above then do your memory transfer. How did you not think about such a simple process of inventing a robo-human?
    please look at my 13 floor post.if we can design a program more detail.the robot will like human.but it won't have essence of human being.because we are in different environment and have different desire.
    this is I have said if we live in internet by some way(logic).we can make a program imitate the reality desire.we take our memory as data base.the program will be a new world for our memory.but they can't feel 4D sense in there and all rules can be changed.
    Oh okay, you are already working on it! When you are finished adding - (human's consciousness, human's awareness, human's emotions, human's free will to an extent, human's ability to not just store the information as memories but to actually understand it, human's ability to gain knowledge, the concept of right and wrong, power of thought, power of comprehension itself, etc...) - to the programme, please do not forget to beautify it by adding five senses and yes it would be even better if it is receiptable to some intuitions every now and then. Good luck! .
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  11. #111  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post

    Oh okay, you are already working on it! When you are finished adding - (human's consciousness, human's awareness, human's emotions, human's free will to an extent, human's ability to not just store the information as memories but to actually understand it, human's ability to gain knowledge, the concept of right and wrong, power of thought, power of comprehension itself, etc...) - to the programme, please do not forget to beautify it by adding five senses and yes it would be even better if it is receiptable to some intuitions every now and then. Good luck! .
    I think the robot in my program will have their own awareness,emotion,"free will"(do you think you really have you free will?) or etc.if the program have more detail of desire.I just set "hunger"desire to them

    we feel we have own free will.but we don't know where are our free will come from.if we thought it deeply we can find all our free will come from our desire and desire come from our body.just like my 13 floor post.instinct(logic) give us illusion to make us believe it is own free will.
    Last edited by puzzler; July 1st, 2013 at 05:34 AM.
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  12. #112  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faithfulbeliever View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Man is not like robot of computer
    But many aspects of working models of computer/robots match human beings
    In someway both can be compared
    Specially
    Input : Both takes input.
    Storage: Both store data and resut
    Processing: Both have processing capabilities
    Energy :Both need energy i.e./food,electricity
    Output:Both gives output

    Suppose a person is kept in a jail by birh and he is not given any input during all his life
    This will make his big effect on his thoughts , beliefs, feelings etc
    Possibly he will not know much about God or religion as we
    Yes, they can be compared and some similarities are there but you seem to overlook the very basic difference such as human's consciousness, human's awareness, human's emotions, human's free will to an extent, human's ability to not just store the information as memories but to actually understand it, human's ability to gain knowledge, the concept of right and wrong, power of thought, power of comprehension itself, etc...

    According to Puzzler, memory is the very reason that human is able to do all of what I wrote above, but if that were true then we should have already invented a robot with all of these human qualities. We are not able to invent such a robot because we cannot create the very essence of human being, the essence which has the power of comprehending the memories and which is the very reason of all of the human qualities that I wrote above.
    I expressed only similarities , This does not mean I said computer and human being does not have difference.
    "No law of Physics is surprising & can not beat commonsense until it does not give enough explanation logically or I did not understand it rightly or simply it is wrong "
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  13. #113  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    How rules are changed in Internet world?
    Human Memory is just a memory & does nothing more than storing information
    It is similar to computer memory in working aspects
    have you seen what i posted before?
    1)the memory is the only thing can identity ourselves.
    2)life for us(intelligence creature) is a process,not a substance.the process include past,present and future.memory is the past.and body can give memory today and yesterday.so if we can extract our memory plus body.we can prolong our own life.
    3)human body just be composed by some atoms,like C,H,O,N etc as you view.but life's meaning for us not these.so memory is a memory but memory's meaning for us not this(memory is memory) yet.and I think if I use your way to study the universe will be so simple.the universe is the universe,the sun is the sun.
    4)in online game role can fly,can shot a light beam by bare hands.these are never happen in the reality world.we make the internet's rules.and if we change the rules I think the role can't aware it.the roles will think it is nature.maybe like universe to us.
    Why are saying memory memory memory
    It is not memory , these are biochemical that are responsible for presence of conciseness, awareness, logic, feelings etc
    For example Processor in Computer System is responsible for processing
    Memory may be just for storing informaiton
    Why are you uniting them
    & how are you comparing Internet with real world
    What happened on earth is a evolution
    and what is link with internet ?
    Iternet has no relation with biological evolution
    "No law of Physics is surprising & can not beat commonsense until it does not give enough explanation logically or I did not understand it rightly or simply it is wrong "
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  14. #114  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    How rules are changed in Internet world?
    Human Memory is just a memory & does nothing more than storing information
    It is similar to computer memory in working aspects
    have you seen what i posted before?
    1)the memory is the only thing can identity ourselves.
    2)life for us(intelligence creature) is a process,not a substance.the process include past,present and future.memory is the past.and body can give memory today and yesterday.so if we can extract our memory plus body.we can prolong our own life.
    3)human body just be composed by some atoms,like C,H,O,N etc as you view.but life's meaning for us not these.so memory is a memory but memory's meaning for us not this(memory is memory) yet.and I think if I use your way to study the universe will be so simple.the universe is the universe,the sun is the sun.
    4)in online game role can fly,can shot a light beam by bare hands.these are never happen in the reality world.we make the internet's rules.and if we change the rules I think the role can't aware it.the roles will think it is nature.maybe like universe to us.
    Why are saying memory memory memory
    It is not memory , these are biochemical that are responsible for presence of conciseness, awareness, logic, feelings etc
    For example Processor in Computer System is responsible for processing
    Memory may be just for storing informaiton
    Why are you uniting them
    & how are you comparing Internet with real world
    What happened on earth is a evolution
    and what is link with internet ?
    Iternet has no relation with biological evolution
    yes ,you are right.computer is computer,memory is memory,universe is universe.the world is so simply. don't be entangled with some moron's theory . so you may ignore what I said OK.
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  15. #115  
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    If computer is not computer Is computer human being?
    "No law of Physics is surprising & can not beat commonsense until it does not give enough explanation logically or I did not understand it rightly or simply it is wrong "
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    At 0 years I was mostly any baby, with very little unique personality...
    I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE that a baby age 0 has no personality. Sorry. As a mother...
    Uh, you absolutely disagreed with something I didn't say. I take your point that we all enter the world with different personalities. My point was that these become more elaborate and defined as we develop. And Babe, as parents, and social animals, we might notice that our bonding mechanism magnifies differences between children, so that we tend to dwell on their differences more than similarities.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler
    1)ethical is not existence in the nature...
    2)I have just said a matter that will be happen in the way of human's development.it's not be controlled or decided by me.
    1) Agreed. I say long-lived human minds are "no good" - not ethically good/evil - but no good because minds develop in a way that is most optimal at the middle of a normal lifespan. It is better to grow fresh minds and let old minds die.
    2) You may be right that humans will try immortality anyway. But that's by the vain hope that evolution (nature) won't cut down immortals some way in the future. Personally, I think the better course is working with evolution, as we have successfully for 3 billion years. There are other ways to advance technology, that work nicely with evolution.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    1) Agreed. I say long-lived human minds are "no good" - not ethically good/evil - but no good because minds develop in a way that is most optimal at the middle of a normal lifespan. It is better to grow fresh minds and let old minds die.
    2) You may be right that humans will try immortality anyway. But that's by the vain hope that evolution (nature) won't cut down immortals some way in the future. Personally, I think the better course is working with evolution, as we have successfully for 3 billion years. There are other ways to advance technology, that work nicely with evolution.
    you look like some pessimistic of the future.
    1)if you can live a long time,your mind(knowledge)will developed with your life.it couldn't stoped in some stage.some old mans are stubborn because their bodies are old so they hard study new things and can't compete with young man.and they are fear of their social authority be lost by the young people.so they are showed stubborn.even so those old mans are developing their mind with the time.my dad is studying computer though he doesn't like it.in the future you can always young,you can have varied body to experience varied live.your mind will be more open than now.
    2)this evolution(become observer) looks like be controlled by human.but just like I have said before.we belong to the nature,we have no free will(if we have so we can be survival to against nature,or in other words we can control this evolution if most people don't like it).so this evolution(become observer) still belong to the nature.and Fermi paradox maybe can reverse prove my theory.why the universe is so silent ,could it be said that human is the only son of the GOD?

    by the way I want to ask a question for you(or other people who looking at this post) ,do you want to be immortal?if you will die at tomorrow and a doctor come to ask you:"do you want to make a special sleep,and when you wake up you will find you are young again"what are you choice.die or read memory?
    Last edited by puzzler; July 8th, 2013 at 01:50 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Pong View Post
    At 0 years I was mostly any baby, with very little unique personality...
    I ABSOLUTELY DISAGREE that a baby age 0 has no personality. Sorry. As a mother...
    Uh, you absolutely disagreed with something I didn't say. I take your point that we all enter the world with different personalities. My point was that these become more elaborate and defined as we develop. And Babe, as parents, and social animals, we might notice that our bonding mechanism magnifies differences between children, so that we tend to dwell on their differences more than similarities.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler
    1)ethical is not existence in the nature...
    2)I have just said a matter that will be happen in the way of human's development.it's not be controlled or decided by me.
    1) Agreed. I say long-lived human minds are "no good" - not ethically good/evil - but no good because minds develop in a way that is most optimal at the middle of a normal lifespan. It is better to grow fresh minds and let old minds die.
    2) You may be right that humans will try immortality anyway. But that's by the vain hope that evolution (nature) won't cut down immortals some way in the future. Personally, I think the better course is working with evolution, as we have successfully for 3 billion years. There are other ways to advance technology, that work nicely with evolution.
    As a parent, I really didn't dwell on their similarities at all, but if anything more their differences in personalities. No two children are the same, but my bonding was equal and still is.
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  19. #119  
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    Maybe I should clarify that a bit.

    I never dwelled on the differences in my children. I found that to be normal, and I didn't dwell or scrutinze them.
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  20. #120 A special sleep can explain the Fermi pardox 
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    We all will die in someday,most of us are afraid of it.so if the day will come soon,you sleep in the bed and pray to GOD:I donít want to go.,I have a lot of things want to do yet.and then there is a miracle happen,a doctor come to you and asking:do you want make a special sleep and when you wake up,you will be young and health again.I think you will be so exiting for hear this news.maybe you have some questions about it.but you will die soon how hard it could be.
    The next thing is you watch the doctor infuse over anaesthetic into your body and the world become vague more and more.suddenly you wake up and open your eyes,and you are confused whatís happened,did the operation end?the truth is you are revived.itís sound like fantasy,but it could be ture until the read&write mind technology grow up: Psychic computer that could plug into brain and show thoughts on screen is developed | Mail Online
    What is happened when you lose your consciousness?thr truth is the docotor make a euthanasia for you.and read your memory store into a chip(or some other ways).then make a new body use your gene.transplant the chip into the new body.so when the new bodyís brain receive(learn the world) information from surrounding,he will be prior to get information from the chip.and at the same time he also receive some information from nature.but the information in the chip can identity who is he.and where he derive from..
    The feeling for he just like a sleep.and it will be smoothly no pain..because in this procedure he lost every consciousness canít aware the original him is died and he repossess his consciousness.or let me divide the procedure into two parts.for original him,because being euthanasia.so he has no pain no consciousness.for the new body(baby),we identity ourselves rely on our memory.so in the babyís life he will stand on the memory to start(continue)his life.the original him is the babyís yesterday.his previous life
    So is it easy to understand?only if the read@write technology grow up,we will find a way to immortal.and then the new life style will completely replace the current people.because they all obey the law of nature,they will die in someday.if they donít want choose this way.and their descendant will accept this easily.
    So if we live in the world through thousand years,what do we want?more strong,,more good foods or more sex?I think we need more freedom from the nature,not bound in some conditions like now.we work hard for full our stomach,we love girl(boy) though we havenít mutual interesting things,just because hormone.we can just watch and feel the things happen in the nature in everyday just like travel .all of these we can depend on the genic technology or computer(artificial intelligence) development.so few thousands years we will become the observer(or close to) to the nature,not participator and live hard in the nature.
    This is a great benefit to both of us and nature.we need lower energy or can get easily(like plant),so we can lower influence the nature not like now.pollute the environment,slaughter animal for food.we and nature can free.
    There also has a interesting things to talk.itís the soul.in the ancient times human were isolated and illiterate,but all of they thought they have soul that no one had been seen or felt it.and they all thought soul is their truly life.why?I think it is a instinct for the intelligent creature.just like sex for the animal.no one teach animal how to make sex but they want and know how to operate it spontaneously.we want to find the alien also is a intelligent creature,and just like I have said before we read&write our memory as we transfer our ďsoulĒ,so the alienís culture must pass this way in their culture evolutionary way.
    The Fermi paradox is where are they.so if we be observer,we will ďdisappearĒto the nature.we can change our body that it just can store and run our memory is enough.our culture have been existed for few thousands years since the word birthed.and plus few thousands years that we become observer.totally within ten thousands years.itís a short time for the universe.the current humanís culture just is a short appearance,and the universe has infinite time and space,two culture like humanís meet is so hard and so impossible.
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    I revise my article to more easy to understand.and I need help for you to make this article more English and tell more people to know about it.I have some reasons to do it.
    1:I have experience for it though in my dream.I know how its feel and I obsess it.I want this free life.
    2:the thing must be happened soon or later,we can catch up with it or not,I hope I can.and I think this is a most great thing in my life.if you do think so ,please join me.contact me by email:thtfldz@hotmail.com. it maybe can be the most interesting thing in your life.
    3:it's a good thing to everyone(I think),they have right to know how to immortal,and what is their real life and etc.and if we promote the things happen early that we can catch up,we will no regret for it.
    4:English world is so strange to me,and western has the discourse power about almost everything in this planet.so if I want to push the thing go on ,I must depend on you.
    Last edited by puzzler; July 21st, 2013 at 10:16 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    4:English world is so strange to me,and western has the discourse power about almost everything in this planet.so if I want to push the thing go on ,I must depend on you.
    Weird.

    Here in America, if we want to get anything done, we depend on YOU guys.
    babe likes this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    4:English world is so strange to me,and western has the discourse power about almost everything in this planet.so if I want to push the thing go on ,I must depend on you.
    Weird.

    Here in America, if we want to get anything done, we depend on YOU guys.
    whatever America or England or Australia,you speak English,this is what my meaning about English world.maybe I got your humor,china is a huge factory to the world.but we all know science's discourse power in this planet is in your hands.not orient.if you think all of what I said is important or if you want make that "special" sleep in your last day in the world and free your life.you should push this technology's(read&write memory) development.this is not for me,is for yourself,for ourselves if you want catch up with the time(you can immortal).if you don't think so,please ignore what I have said

    please ask yourself some question,when you lie in the bed in your last day,what would you think?would you have any regret about your whole life?would you not have any curious about tomorrow?I think you will very need to make a "special" sleep in that time,you will want to "wake up" again and youth back.but if we don't struggle for it,the last day we just only have nothing we can do except wait death.

    maybe I need explain the special sleep again.
    1:for science or philosophy,memory carry on your yesterday(philosophy),carry on your identity(science),so if you want to prolong your life you have to take your memory on the way.
    2:for your feeling,it is a smooth transfer.you just sleep and wake up.you will
    be not conscious of the operation.maybe like a cosmetic surgery
    Last edited by puzzler; July 20th, 2013 at 05:56 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    whatever America or England or Australia,you speak English,this is what my meaning about English world.maybe I got your humor,china is a huge factory to the world.but we all know science's discourse power in this planet is in your hands.not orient.


    I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss China as a hub of new innovation. While there have been some unscrupulous practices (taking plans from car manufacturer's and ripping them off or making mock pop technology at bargain prices), the fact that China can make things the world wants at a cheaper price than anyone else is not to be swept aside.

    The US is becoming an idea-based economy and it is not an easy transition for us. We have skilled laborers who are out of work, schools that aren't properly preparing people for our new technological landscape, and legislation which is killing trades like coal mining and lumber harvesting (not that I disagree with that legislation).

    The fact is, we owe a lot to China. We don't like to admit it because we still have a sketchy opinion of the country in general (based on the government, not the people). There are more than enough Chinese scientists and innovators in the world to cement China as a fount of science.

    I'll be honest, though, I'm not entirely sure what the rest of the post about "special sleep" means. Might need some clarification.

    Also, I know you said English isn't your strongest language, so if you need me to explain anything better, I understand. Just ask.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    whatever America or England or Australia,you speak English,this is what my meaning about English world.maybe I got your humor,china is a huge factory to the world.but we all know science's discourse power in this planet is in your hands.not orient.


    I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss China as a hub of new innovation. While there have been some unscrupulous practices (taking plans from car manufacturer's and ripping them off or making mock pop technology at bargain prices), the fact that China can make things the world wants at a cheaper price than anyone else is not to be swept aside.

    The US is becoming an idea-based economy and it is not an easy transition for us. We have skilled laborers who are out of work, schools that aren't properly preparing people for our new technological landscape, and legislation which is killing trades like coal mining and lumber harvesting (not that I disagree with that legislation).

    The fact is, we owe a lot to China. We don't like to admit it because we still have a sketchy opinion of the country in general (based on the government, not the people). There are more than enough Chinese scientists and innovators in the world to cement China as a fount of science.

    I'll be honest, though, I'm not entirely sure what the rest of the post about "special sleep" means. Might need some clarification.

    Also, I know you said English isn't your strongest language, so if you need me to explain anything better, I understand. Just ask.
    thank for your help.first let me explain the "special sleep",it's a analogy.and actually it is a operation.but you will feel it like a sleep.I presume the operation like this(maybe other way),first make an euthanasia for you(when you will die soon) and take your memory out and store them by some way(USB,chip or something else).and make a new body for you(presume use your gene).and instill your memory into the new body(I presume transplant the chip which store your memory into the new body's brain).and the whole procedure to you just like a sleep.and you will revive from the new body.you will be youth again.
    I don't want to discuss who has more innovation.I just know Chinese scientist are diffidence. this is because of our culture and recently history.maybe you can't understand what I say.you just need to know we(Chinese) are fear of innovation and can't accept a new idea from ourselves(Chinese).we just follow the west(English world),if you make some new things happen,we follow it immediately and make more cheap.this is what we do,not innovation.and this is the reason why I am studying English and come here.

    have you read all this thread?it's more information,and actually it is very simple.just one sentence"memory is our real life".can you make my 121 floor's story more English and put it on other website(if you can understand my English,LOL)?
    I acknowledge all what I have done is for myself.I hope I can have a choice in my last day.I have imaged that scene about my last day,I will lie in the bed and waiting to death(if not sudden death just for old),nothing can do.desperate waiting.and I have had a dream(please refer to 30th floor),I think that monster is my death, disease,pain or some other bad things,and because I have had this experience(free my life).so I want it be true,especially in my last day.if you help me actually you just help yourself,you maybe can have the choice in your last day.don't need to desperate waiting death.
    I think the technology of read&write memory is the most important thing for human.but I found people don't know that.their direction is in the money.what kind of technology can make more money,they do it at all costs.but money will be useless when we are die.JOBS has so many money,but he can't make that special sleep.so if we can make more people know how it is important for us.maybe we can pull the time(read memory) come early,maybe several decades years.maybe you and me and other people can catch up with the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    you just need to know we(Chinese) are fear of innovation and can't accept a new idea from ourselves(Chinese).we just follow the west(English world),if you make some new things happen,we follow it immediately and make more cheap.this is what we do,not innovation.and this is the reason why I am studying English and come here.
    When you say Chinese, are you referring to citizens of PRC or the entire Chinese race? I'm of Chinese descent and a citizen of Singapore. As far as I know, I have yet to come across many possessing what you have described as "fear of innovation and can't accept a new idea..." in my country.

    As for the rest of the content in your post, all I can say is that it makes for a believable science fiction story and perhaps a movie script. I do however haven't the faintest idea what this thread has to do with philosophy. Perhaps you can clarify?
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    Look, if this is something about who truly you are, I find spiritual books written by others far more convincing. Chinese philosophers like Lao Zi have much better theories, I don't understand where this 'key' of yours come from. It seems like something that popped up in your head.

    You are the consciousness, right now, as you read this, you are a mere perceiver, your superficial identity doesn't matter, just stop reading right now and close your eyes, stop identifying with your body and feel your inner self. That inner self is the real you.

    If you want to discuss this, I can make a new thread. I was famous once on this forum for my thread 'Obejective vs. Subjective'.
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  28. #128  
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    Please stop.
    The topic is convoluted enough without adding woo and inflated claims to it.
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    I was famous once on this forum for my thread 'Obejective vs. Subjective'.
    Famous is not the word anyone else would use.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    you just need to know we(Chinese) are fear of innovation and can't accept a new idea from ourselves(Chinese).we just follow the west(English world),if you make some new things happen,we follow it immediately and make more cheap.this is what we do,not innovation.and this is the reason why I am studying English and come here.
    When you say Chinese, are you referring to citizens of PRC or the entire Chinese race? I'm of Chinese descent and a citizen of Singapore. As far as I know, I have yet to come across many possessing what you have described as "fear of innovation and can't accept a new idea..." in my country.

    As for the rest of the content in your post, all I can say is that it makes for a believable science fiction story and perhaps a movie script. I do however haven't the faintest idea what this thread has to do with philosophy. Perhaps you can clarify?
    I am glad to see you.can you read Chinese word or old Chinese words(I'm in Beijing,use simple Chinese words)?if you don't know any Chinese words,you are the English world's people to me.your mind is western(I don't mean that is bad)。如果你能看懂中文,我的意思是現在這個世界上科學創新以西方為主,東方人包括日本很少能創新出什 麽新思想或者新理論。有很多華人也獲得過諾貝爾科學獎(不包括文學),不過他們無一例外的都有西方的知識背 景。這就是我所說的中國人害怕創新的意思。我在大陸,我知道的就是這邊的搞科學的都以翻譯西方的文獻為傲( 科學松鼠會),他們從不提出自己的新的見解甚至幻想,怕被同行貶為民科。我們這邊做投行的投資一個新項目第 一句話問的就是“你這個項目在國外(通常指的是西方國家,你不能拿泰國或者越南的成功案例來說明)有成功案 例嗎?”如果說沒有,那麼投行一定不會投錢給你的。
    about you want me to clarify more,sorry,I can't.because I have done enough,if you still can't get it.maybe you can ignore what I have said.
    Last edited by puzzler; July 20th, 2013 at 09:39 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Man View Post
    Look, if this is something about who truly you are, I find spiritual books written by others far more convincing. Chinese philosophers like Lao Zi have much better theories, I don't understand where this 'key' of yours come from. It seems like something that popped up in your head.

    You are the consciousness, right now, as you read this, you are a mere perceiver, your superficial identity doesn't matter, just stop reading right now and close your eyes, stop identifying with your body and feel your inner self. That inner self is the real you.

    If you want to discuss this, I can make a new thread. I was famous once on this forum for my thread 'Obejective vs. Subjective'.
    read your memory is the "KEY",open a new world to you.free your life.you don't understand what I had said yet.
    what is the inner self?can you describe it?my memory is in my brain's inner,do you mean that?you sound like a Psychic.the simple question can you answer?if you lose your all memory,you think who are you?
    why some people can't know this very simple question.
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  32. #132  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    I am glad to see you.can you read Chinese word or old Chinese words(I'm in Beijing,use simple Chinese words)?if you don't know any Chinese words,you are the English world's people to me.your mind is western(I don't mean that is bad)。
    Perhaps, it wasn't made clear. Yes, I can read and speak Mandarin. I converse in English, Malay, Mandarin and at least two of its dialects (namely the Minnan variant of Hokkien, and the unrelated dialect of Cantonese) on a daily basis when engaging my colleagues at work. This is a result of my distinct cultural background being born and raised in Singapore. The usage of the various languages is primarily to cultivate good interpersonal relationships amongst the many ethnic groups here; not that it is necessary, but it does make them more comfortable and open when you speak in their respective mother tongue.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    如果你能看懂中文,我的意思是現在這個世界上科學創新以西方為主,東方人包括日本很少能創新出什麽新思想或 者新理論。有很多華人也獲得過諾貝爾科學獎(不 包括文學),不過他們無一例外的都有西方的知識背景。這就是我所說的中國人害怕創新的意思。我在大陸,我知 道的就是這邊的搞科學的都以翻譯西方的文獻為傲 (科學松鼠會),他們從不提出自己的新的見解甚至幻想,怕被同行貶為民科。我們這邊做投行的投資一個新項目 第一句話問的就是“你這個項目在國外有成功案例 嗎?”如果說沒有,那麼投行一定不會投錢給你的。
    For the sake of other non-Mandarin speakers here, I shall reply in English to this portion of your post. Its all about the rigorous application the scientific method plus having your work peer-reviewed. And as it stands, the language barrier does play a part in limiting the amount of exposure non-English speaking countries have in the review process if I'm not mistaken.

    So, if you are referring strictly to citizens of PRC when describing them as "fear(ful) of innovation and can't accept a new idea...", you would probably know that more than anyone else. But do be more precise in your usage of the word "Chinese". Not all Chinese reside in China, not all Chinese are limited to Mandarin as a spoken language, not all Chinese have suffered through the cultural revolution that stunted (some argue regressed) its growth, not all Chinese fear innovation, and last but not least; not all Chinese aren't able to accept new ideas.

    To be very clear, Chinese as I see it is an ethnicity, and they neither reside in a specific country nor do they always possess the traits you have described them to have.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    about you want me to clarify more,sorry,I can't.because I have done enough,if you still can't get it.maybe you can ignore what I have said.
    Are you by any chance using a language translator? The reason I'm asking is because some of your "ideas" in this thread borders on science fiction fantasy, and all that talk about duplicating memories, special sleep (whatever that means), storage in USB & chips, etc. seems a little "out there" when compared with what we are capable now or even within the next ten to twenty years.

    But I do have to ask again. what does all that you have said have to do with philosophy?
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    OK,in your mind Chinese is a bigger scope than me.I admit it,I just used to this usage.because of the capability of my English.in Chinese language your mean is 华人。my mean is 大陆人包括港澳台。let's put aside this discussion,it's nonsense for this thread.
    about the relationship to the philosophy,I would like to pay more detail to you(I thought I have been explain it before)
    my theory is about the relationship for the science and mind(objective&subjectivity).we all have our own unique world.our mind(subjectivity) and the substance(objectivity) make up the world to ourselves.for example, a stone,you can think it is fossil,treasure,weapon,art or etc.the stone is a stone,but when it through our mind,it will be interpreted different thing to us.in this relationship the subjectivity is the lord,the objective is the servant and serve the subjectivity.subjectivity dominate our own world.
    back to my theory,memory just is some information belong to objective.but our subjectivity use it as the only identity for us.and this is the most important thing for everyone and for my theory.so if I want to explain my theory I can't avoid those subjective topic"what do you think""what do you feel".so if I want to explain my theory,I must need to use the science(some scientific experiment)and your mind(feel,think).so can you understand me ,if not,do you read Chinese no trouble,I can explain it in Chinese again.

    I don't think my theory is science fiction. on the contrary I think it is our future and we have no choice to pass on in sometime(do you carefully read my all before post?)
    did you see this information in my before post:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete....html?ITO=1490,and when this technology grow up,can you image that what will happen.

    maybe this presumption can make you understand my theory easy.if your body died last night ,but all of your memory put into my brain and my memory is erased.so this morning when my body wake up,who is this guy?and where am I(puzzler)?please answer the question.
    Last edited by puzzler; July 21st, 2013 at 01:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    OK,in your mind Chinese is a bigger scope than me.I admit it,I just used to this usage.because of the capability of my English.in Chinese language your mean is 华人。my mean is 大陆人包括港澳台。let's put aside this discussion,it's nonsense for this thread.
    Agreed. I've only wanted to clarify to other readers that your use of the word Chinese was in-fact referring specifically to mainland Chinese (or citizens of PRC), and not everyone who is of Chinese descent who may reside outside of China.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    about the relationship to the philosophy,I would like to pay more detail to you(I thought I have been explain it before)
    my theory is about the relationship for the science and mind(objective&subjectivity).we all have our own unique world.our mind(subjectivity) and the substance(objectivity) make up the world to ourselves.for example, a stone,you can think it is fossil,treasure,weapon,art or etc.the stone is a stone,but when it through our mind,it will be interpreted different thing to us.in this relationship the subjectivity is the lord,the objective is the servant and serve the subjectivity.subjectivity dominate our own world.

    back to my theory,memory just is some information belong to objective.but our subjectivity use it as the only identity for us.and this is the most important thing for everyone and for my theory.so if I want to explain my theory I can't avoid those subjective topic"what do you think""what do you feel".so if I want to explain my theory,I must need to use the science(some scientific experiment)and your mind(feel,think).so can you understand me ,if not,do you read Chinese no trouble,I can explain it in Chinese again.
    If you meant you would like to discuss philosophy of the mind, I have to ask which aspect of it relates to what you have been talking about. It is a very broad subject after all.


    • Are you perhaps attempting to delve into whether the mind can be separated from the biological organ that is the brain, and into a machine capable of replicating a brain's function?
    • Whether there are limitations for such an endeavor since mechanical component lacks the ability to both produce and process hormones that drives/spurs us? Such as hunger, procreation, rest (sleep), entertainment, etc. In short (dis)pleasure.
    • Whether or not it is possible to code a machine that allows for one mind to interpret an object/subject differently from another mind. Such as a tree for instance. One might see it as a beautiful thing, others might simply see "firewood". Or will the machine determine/allow only one interpretation in such an exercise?
    • How can/will value theory be applied in such scenarios? For example: a child may be seen as a parasite, an inert object, or a bundle of joy.
    • Etc.


    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    I don't think my theory is science fiction. on the contrary I think it is our future and we have no choice to pass on in sometime(do you carefully read my all before post?)
    did you see this information in my before post:Psychic computer that could plug into brain and show thoughts on screen is developed | Mail Online,and when this technology grow up,can you image that what will happen.
    Digitizing vision is one thing, but interpeting the object/subject in that digitized image requires a whole lot more strides in our advances in technology. Some of which may or may not be overcomed depending on what you are proposing.


    Edits:
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    maybe this presumption can make you understand my theory easy.if your body died last night ,but all of your memory put into my brain and my memory is erased.so this morning when my body wake up,who is this guy?and where am I(puzzler)?please answer the question.
    Our "identity" is tied into what we have come to accept and preceive as our body. If one day I wake up to a different body, not knowing how that took place, I have little doubt that it will be a disturbing event. I suspect it will be something akin to having been violated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    maybe this presumption can make you understand my theory easy.if your body died last night ,but all of your memory put into my brain and my memory is erased.so this morning when my body wake up,who is this guy?and where am I(puzzler)?please answer the question.
    Our "identity" is tied into what we have come to accept and preceive as our body. If one day I wake up to a different body, not knowing how that took place, I have little doubt that it will be a disturbing event. I suspect it will be something akin to having been violated.[/QUOTE] Scoobydoo1, why would you feel violated? Just curious. I think I would be puzzled, possibly angry, bewildered, but I don't know if violated would be one of my emotions.
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  36. #136  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Edits:
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    maybe this presumption can make you understand my theory easy.if your body died last night ,but all of your memory put into my brain and my memory is erased.so this morning when my body wake up,who is this guy?and where am I(puzzler)?please answer the question.
    Our "identity" is tied into what we have come to accept and preceive as our body. If one day I wake up to a different body, not knowing how that took place, I have little doubt that it will be a disturbing event. I suspect it will be something akin to having been violated.
    Scoobydoo1, why would you feel violated? Just curious. I think I would be puzzled, possibly angry, bewildered, but I don't know if violated would be one of my emotions.
    I tend to imagine it being similar to having one of my limbs amputated overnight without my knowledge. Perhaps I'm imagining it "wrong", but the phrase "What the @#$%!" followed by confusion, disorientation, and subsequent anger seems to fit the sense of being violated.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Edits:
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    maybe this presumption can make you understand my theory easy.if your body died last night ,but all of your memory put into my brain and my memory is erased.so this morning when my body wake up,who is this guy?and where am I(puzzler)?please answer the question.
    Our "identity" is tied into what we have come to accept and preceive as our body. If one day I wake up to a different body, not knowing how that took place, I have little doubt that it will be a disturbing event. I suspect it will be something akin to having been violated.
    Scoobydoo1, why would you feel violated? Just curious. I think I would be puzzled, possibly angry, bewildered, but I don't know if violated would be one of my emotions.
    I tend to imagine it being similar to having one of my limbs amputated overnight without my knowledge. Perhaps I'm imagining it "wrong", but the phrase "What the @#$%!" followed by confusion, disorientation, and subsequent anger seems to fit the sense of being violated.
    ok, but what if you were a guy, and were now a "chick" magnet, (the terminology I hear), would you then still have those feelings, or would you take the ball and run with it? (then again if you are already a guy and a "chick" magnet, you might still feel violated.) I know. Sillly question, but if it made your life BETTER in some way, would you still be angry?
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    but if it made your life BETTER in some way, would you still be angry?
    Because you have invested heavily into your "former" body. Generally speaking, our entire lives revolves around the body we and the people we know have grown accustomed to. Our family, friends, colleagues, etc will not recognize us; or us them. It also brings about the issue of the presence of (or lack of it) vanity and narcissism regarding both bodies. One that brings along an entire baggage of complications.

    Perception by and from ourselves, our peers, and the community at large is also another issue that hasn't been raised. Since puzzler said this isn't fiction, it will have issues that complicates everyday interpersonal relationships we rely on to function as part of a larger system.


    Edits: Imagine a favorite TV show or sitcom that you like. Then imagine them changing one of the primary or supporting actors, but retaining the fictional character. Its a big change that takes a lot of getting used to.
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    1:I don't say we must put our memory into a mechanical body.it's your choice.
    2:the body that you will transfer is your choice,not random.so the body must satisfy your need.at least you can make a clone.
    3:different body has different feeling and make different world to you.you can choose it,if you don't like it.change.
    4:I don't understand your example.a child may be seen as a parasite.....why?all of us will be observer finally.just like all of us are human.maybe now some people are parasite or bad guy.what is your point?

    "Our "identity" is tied into what we have come to accept and preceive as our body. If one day I wake up to a different body, not knowing how that took place, I have little doubt that it will be a disturbing event. I suspect it will be something akin to having been violated."
    many people answer my question can't straight do it.OK,I presume a perfect condition that you know will happen in last night and I donate my health alive body to you for free.please answer again.(you use the words"
    I wake up to a different body",why use I,not you(puzzler),do your potential consciousness know you revive again,but some strange things happen)
    Last edited by puzzler; July 21st, 2013 at 03:08 AM.
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  40. #140  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    but if it made your life BETTER in some way, would you still be angry?
    Because you have invested heavily into your "former" body. Generally speaking, our entire lives revolves around the body we and the people we know have grown accustomed to. Our family, friends, colleagues, etc will not recognize us; or us them. It also brings about the issue of the presence of (or lack of it) vanity and narcissism regarding both bodies. One that brings along an entire baggage of complications.

    Perception by and from ourselves, our peers, and the community at large is also another issue that hasn't been raised. Since puzzler said this isn't fiction, it will have issues that complicates everyday interpersonal relationships we rely on to function as part of a larger system.
    I agree. I think the part, "you have invested heavily into your "former" body. Generally speaking, our entire lives revolves around the body we and the people we know have grown accustomed to. Our family, friends, colleagues, etc will not recognize us; or us them", rather sums it up. In a sense, you would not have only lost your "body" you would in a sense lost your entire identity and would have to re-create (guess that is the right word) yourself.
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  41. #141  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    1:I don't say we must put our memory into a mechanical body.it's your choice.
    2:the body that you will transfer is your choice,not random.so the body must satisfy your need.at least you can make a clone.
    3:different body has different feeling and make different world to you.you can choose it,if you don't like it.change.
    I thought you said you were dealing with philosophy. My questions were written to initiate a philosophical discussion about the practical ramifications of what you are proposing.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    4:I don't understand your example.a child may be seen as a parasite.....why?all of us will be observer finally.just like all of us are human.maybe now some people are parasite or bad guy.what is your point?
    Are you familiar with value theory, and how it relates to us assigning meaning and values to things around us and in our lives? Without the biological components in your present body, some things looses it meaning and value. The question I have given was to ask how that (cognitive) processing takes place in absence of what used to drive/spur us.

    * For example, does the machine code determine what object/subject stimulates your mechanized pleasure centers? Since we aren't able to produce and process (for example) dopamine, what does it take to drive us; and who or what determines that?

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    many people answer my question can't straight do it.OK,I presume a perfect condition that you know will happen in last night and I donate my health alive body to you for free.please answer again.(you use the words" I wake up to a different body",why use I,not you(puzzler),do your potential consciousness know you revive again,but some strange things happen)
    Sigh, if I understand you correctly, allow me to help finetune the setting of your question.

    Condition 1: My body is unhealthy, perhaps not fully functional (paraplegic?), possibly dying.
    Condition 2: You puzzler offer to donate your body to me so that I may live on (survive).

    I wouldn't accept your offer in the first place for many reasons, mostly because I have lived a fulfilling life, and I see no reason, NO REASON at all to accept your offer. My "lifestory" requires an ending because I want one. The absense of one robs me that which will make my life meaningful. I would likely never accept an offer like that. Therefore, I can only envision it as a violation. I hope this answers your question adequately.

    Perhaps you can address that question to someone else who favors living on in hopes of a more satisfying answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    but if it made your life BETTER in some way, would you still be angry?
    Because you have invested heavily into your "former" body. Generally speaking, our entire lives revolves around the body we and the people we know have grown accustomed to. Our family, friends, colleagues, etc will not recognize us; or us them. It also brings about the issue of the presence of (or lack of it) vanity and narcissism regarding both bodies. One that brings along an entire baggage of complications.

    Perception by and from ourselves, our peers, and the community at large is also another issue that hasn't been raised. Since puzzler said this isn't fiction, it will have issues that complicates everyday interpersonal relationships we rely on to function as part of a larger system.


    Edits: Imagine a favorite TV show or sitcom that you like. Then imagine them changing one of the primary or supporting actors, but retaining the fictional character. Its a big change that takes a lot of getting used to.
    1:you will die,we all will die.do you want to die or waiting death in you last day?
    2:new relationship,new ethics will be arose to adapt our new society.why are you worry about it.all is under control.before internet, I can't make a relationship to you.but now,we all right for it.
    3: Please think all those thing will be under controlled,your new body,the "special sleep",your credit card,your family and friends.why are you worry about those thing.I can't image you make the "special sleep"without any preparation.
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  43. #143  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    1:you will die,we all will die.do you want to die or waiting death in you last day?
    2:new relationship,new ethics will be arose to adapt our new society.why are you worry about it.all is under control.before internet, I can't make a relationship to you.but now,we all right for it.
    3lease think all those thing will be under controlled,your new body,the "special sleep",your credit card,your family and friends.why are you worry about those thing.I can't image you make the "special sleep"without any preparation.
    Were you addressing me or babe?

    I can make out the individual words and phrases, but they aren't making much sense. Perhaps your meaning has gotten lost because of the language barrier or translation software.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    1:I don't say we must put our memory into a mechanical body.it's your choice.
    2:the body that you will transfer is your choice,not random.so the body must satisfy your need.at least you can make a clone.
    3:different body has different feeling and make different world to you.you can choose it,if you don't like it.change.
    I thought you said you were dealing with philosophy. My questions were written to initiate a philosophical discussion about the practical ramifications of what you are proposing.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    4:I don't understand your example.a child may be seen as a parasite.....why?all of us will be observer finally.just like all of us are human.maybe now some people are parasite or bad guy.what is your point?
    Are you familiar with value theory, and how it relates to us assigning meaning and values to things around us and in our lives? Without the biological components in your present body, some things looses it meaning and value. The question I have given was to ask how that (cognitive) processing takes place in absence of what used to drive/spur us.

    * For example, does the machine code determine what object/subject stimulates your mechanized pleasure centers? Since we aren't able to produce and process (for example) dopamine, what does it take to drive us; and who or what determines that?

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    many people answer my question can't straight do it.OK,I presume a perfect condition that you know will happen in last night and I donate my health alive body to you for free.please answer again.(you use the words" I wake up to a different body",why use I,not you(puzzler),do your potential consciousness know you revive again,but some strange things happen)
    Sigh, if I understand you correctly, allow me to help finetune the setting of your question.

    Condition 1: My body is unhealthy, perhaps not fully functional (paraplegic?), possibly dying.
    Condition 2: You puzzler offer to donate your body to me so that I may live on (survive).

    I wouldn't accept your offer in the first place for many reasons, mostly because I have lived a fulfilling life, and I see no reason, NO REASON at all to accept your offer. My "lifestory" requires an ending because I want one. The absense of one robs me that which will make my life meaningful. I would likely never accept an offer like that. Therefore, I can only envision it as a violation. I hope this answers your question adequately.

    Perhaps you can address that question to someone else who favors living on in hopes of a more satisfying answer.
    my question is who is this guy?and where am I(puzzler)? I donot ask your willing and reason.and someday you will die,you will have two choice,die or make a special sleep and wake up from my body!and if you don't want do this,do you think someone else would do this ?I just discuss the whole human,not one person.
    and I found so many people fear of answer this question plainly.why?it is confuse me for a long time.
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  45. #145  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    my question is who is this guy?and where am I(puzzler)?
    The identity of puzzler cease to exist if someone else's mind is transplanted into your body (assuming that it is possible in a non-fictional way).

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    if you don't want do this,do you think someone else would do this ?I just discuss the whole human,not one person.
    You ought to ask them individually if they would. The entire human race isn't homogeneous if you didn't already know.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    and I found so many people fear of answer this question plainly.why?it is confuse me for a long time.
    I do not know. Perhaps they do not grasp your question in the way you like them to answer, or that you did not word it sufficiently to eliminate the many many variables in your scenario. Precision is key; no pun intended.


    Edits: So, I will ask again, when (if ever) will you begin to discuss the philosophical aspects and its ramifications of what you are proposing?
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  46. #146  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    The identity of puzzler cease to exist if someone else's mind is transplanted into your body (assuming that it is possible in a non-fictional way).

    OK ,you answer the second question,I(puzzler) was erased(killed).the first question can you answer"who is this guy(or this guy think who he is)"
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  47. #147  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    the first question can you answer"who is this guy(or this guy think who he is)"
    Someone that looks like puzzler. But I get the feeling that isn't what you meant to ask.

    I suppose it will depend on who you ask, whether or not they are aware of the "non-fictional" transplant procedure, how they process interacting with someone they once knew but behaving entirely like a different person (or the other way around; exhibiting the same behavioural traits and knowledge - but look entirely different). This is one of the reasons why I've mentioned to babe about the interpersonal relationships we have, and invested so heavily on our identity and the body the people we know have gotten accustomed to. The TV show or sitcom actor replacement was also an attempt to elaborate on that point.
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  48. #148  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    the first question can you answer"who is this guy(or this guy think who he is)"
    Someone that looks like puzzler. But I get the feeling that isn't what you meant to ask.

    I suppose it will depend on who you ask, whether or not they are aware of the "non-fictional" transplant procedure, how they process interacting with someone they once knew but behaving entirely like a different person (or the other way around; exhibiting the same behavioural traits and knowledge - but look entirely different). This is one of the reasons why I've mentioned to babe about the interpersonal relationships we have, and invested so heavily on our identity and the body the people we know have gotten accustomed to. The TV show or sitcom actor replacement was also an attempt to elaborate on that point.
    this guy think who he is?(his brain is full of scoobydoo1's memory)

    I think it just like pushing toothpaste,push it out bit by bit.and I think we all know the answer,LOL.
    Last edited by puzzler; July 21st, 2013 at 04:09 AM.
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  49. #149  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    the first question can you answer"who is this guy(or this guy think who he is)"
    Someone that looks like puzzler. But I get the feeling that isn't what you meant to ask.

    I suppose it will depend on who you ask, whether or not they are aware of the "non-fictional" transplant procedure, how they process interacting with someone they once knew but behaving entirely like a different person (or the other way around; exhibiting the same behavioural traits and knowledge - but look entirely different). This is one of the reasons why I've mentioned to babe about the interpersonal relationships we have, and invested so heavily on our identity and the body the people we know have gotten accustomed to. The TV show or sitcom actor replacement was also an attempt to elaborate on that point.
    What an excellent point!!!! Yes, that is very true. Often trying to replicate a character with a different actor backfired, because people associated themselves with the person they grew to know as the character. They would really try to find someone similar, but it never quite rang true.
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  50. #150  
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    Puzzler, will you ever touch on anything philosophical?

    Sigh, just in case you aren't able to understand me, I've included the Mandarin translation of my question. 你到底何時才會討論哲學上的題目?
    Last edited by scoobydoo1; July 21st, 2013 at 04:26 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Puzzler, will you ever touch on anything philosophical?
    do you think I need your answer for the first question is for me?wrong,it's for yourself.and I don't want to continue this discussion.because we can't change the fact if it is real.if you can't understand or accepted what I said,I can't and don't want to change your mind.bye

    if you want to know about the future,about what is your real life.and you think my theory has some reasonable.I would like discuss it with you.
    if you find some defects in my theory,and you want to point it to me.I appreciate it.and I will answer your question,and I need you answer my question plainly too.
    if you don't agree with me or can't accept my theory.it's up to you.I don't want change anyone's faith

    I don't understand why scoobydoo1 want to discuss philosophy with me,and what topic do you want to talk?I'm not a philosophical expert and I don't care philosophy.
    Last edited by puzzler; July 21st, 2013 at 07:08 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    For the sake of other non-Mandarin speakers here, I shall reply in English to this portion of your post. Its all about the rigorous application the scientific method plus having your work peer-reviewed. And as it stands, the language barrier does play a part in limiting the amount of exposure non-English speaking countries have in the review process if I'm not mistaken.

    So, if you are referring strictly to citizens of PRC when describing them as "fear(ful) of innovation and can't accept a new idea...", you would probably know that more than anyone else. But do be more precise in your usage of the word "Chinese". Not all Chinese reside in China, not all Chinese are limited to Mandarin as a spoken language, not all Chinese have suffered through the cultural revolution that stunted (some argue regressed) its growth, not all Chinese fear innovation, and last but not least; not all Chinese aren't able to accept new ideas.

    To be very clear, Chinese as I see it is an ethnicity, and they neither reside in a specific country nor do they always possess the traits you have described them to have.
    you are fearful of facing my question.how do you think you are different to the Chinese that what I said(你觉得你和我所说的国人有什么区别?).where are your spiritual of innovation?why are you fear to facing the truth?that guy(my body) must think he is you(scoobydoo1)no doubt.you consciousness disappear from your body(just like you sleep),and arise from my body(just like you wake up).why are you try to avoid this question,this question is a key for yourself,for everyone self.the key can open a new world.even if you deny it,it will be come true.do you think you blind your eyes the sun will disappear?
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Man View Post
    Look, if this is something about who truly you are, I find spiritual books written by others far more convincing. Chinese philosophers like Lao Zi have much better theories, I don't understand where this 'key' of yours come from. It seems like something that popped up in your head.

    You are the consciousness, right now, as you read this, you are a mere perceiver, your superficial identity doesn't matter, just stop reading right now and close your eyes, stop identifying with your body and feel your inner self. That inner self is the real you.

    If you want to discuss this, I can make a new thread. I was famous once on this forum for my thread 'Obejective vs. Subjective'.
    read your memory is the "KEY",open a new world to you.free your life.you don't understand what I had said yet.
    what is the inner self?can you describe it?my memory is in my brain's inner,do you mean that?you sound like a Psychic.the simple question can you answer?if you lose your all memory,you think who are you?
    why some people can't know this very simple question.
    你自己能回答这个问题吗?未生我时谁是我,生我之时我是谁。这是非常奥妙的问题,自古以来多少人探索过,你 算个什么就在此胡言乱语,什么是'Key'?听着像是邪教, 这些外国人不会买你这一套。

    The question itself, 'if I loose me memory who I am' is a stupid question, you are supposing I shall loose my memory. Well I have it now, that's all I need to know, I needn't worry about my loosing memory, I live in the now, not in some unrealistic future.

    最后劝告一下:北京现在空气不好,也许你的精神有点问题,要不去别处休养吧,怀柔,密云或是郊 区。
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  54. #154  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Man View Post
    The question itself, 'if I loose me memory who I am' is a stupid question, you are supposing I shall loose my memory.
    Please learn to read.
    The "IF" shows that it's a question, NOT a supposition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dywyddyr View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Man View Post
    The question itself, 'if I loose me memory who I am' is a stupid question, you are supposing I shall loose my memory.
    Please learn to read.
    The "IF" shows that it's a question, NOT a supposition.
    You make me laugh so hard. When you ask if, you are telling me to answer by supposing a situation which hasn't occurred. What's the meaning of answering this sort of question?

    And besides, I'm not talking to you, contact me via private message if you must.

    To make it more clear, when he asked me 'if you loose your memory who are you', he is supposing I have an answer, right? But I have my memory now therefore I cannot answer him. Obviously he's supposing I lost my memory, otherwise why should he ask?
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  56. #156  
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    And besides, I'm not talking to you, contact me via private message if you must.
    When you post on a forum, you're talking to everyone reading it.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexG View Post
    And besides, I'm not talking to you, contact me via private message if you must.
    When you post on a forum, you're talking to everyone reading it.
    My follow up comment was addressed to puzzler, not him, or you. Have I made myself clear?
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  58. #158  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Man View Post
    You make me laugh so hard. When you ask if, you are telling me to answer by supposing a situation which hasn't occurred.
    Corect.
    It is not supposing that it will happen.
    Maybe your English comprehension isn't that good.

    What's the meaning of answering this sort of question?
    What's the meaning of any question?
    By asking questions we get answers.
    By getting answers we increase our knowldege.
    "IF" is repsonsible for much of the world as it is today.

    And besides, I'm not talking to you, contact me via private message if you must.
    ROFL.

    To make it more clear, when he asked me 'if you loose your memory who are you', he is supposing I have an answer, right?
    Not in the slightest.

    But I have my memory now therefore I cannot answer him.
    Is that because you can't possibly imagine what it would be like to lose your memeory? In which case the fault lies with you for lack of imagination.

    Obviously he's supposing I lost my memory, otherwise why should he ask?
    Wrong again.
    Oh wait.
    If (sorry, there's that word again), someone asked you "If you had enough money what's the first thing you'd buy?" do you think they're supposing you actually DO have that money?
    Or, do think that, possibly, it's a question asking about a speculative possibility?
    Last edited by Dywyddyr; July 21st, 2013 at 04:24 PM.
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    My follow up comment was addressed to puzzler, not him, or you. Have I made myself clear?
    Then send it in a pm. When you post on a public thread, you post to everyone reading it. If you don't want anyone else responding, keep it off the board.
    Dywyddyr likes this.
    Its the way nature is!
    If you dont like it, go somewhere else....
    To another universe, where the rules are simpler
    Philosophically more pleasing, more psychologically easy
    Prof Richard Feynman (1979) .....

    Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    I don't understand why scoobydoo1 want to discuss philosophy with me,and what topic do you want to talk?I'm not a philosophical expert and I don't care philosophy.
    I'm confused. This is the philosophy subforum.

    Isn that not the reason why you have decided to post your thread here; to delve into the philosophical aspects of what you are proposing?

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    you are fearful of facing my question.
    The following portion of your post has no questions as far as I'm able to tell. Can you explain what portion of my reply to that portion of your post contains what you have come to deduce as fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    如果你能看懂中文,我的意思是現在這個世界上科學創新以西方為主,東方人包括日本很少能創新出 什麽新思想或 者新理論。有很多華人也獲得過諾貝爾科學獎(不 包括文學),不過他們無一例外的都有西方的知識背景。這就是我所說的中國人害怕創新的意思。我在大陸,我知 道的就是這邊的搞科學的都以翻譯西方的文獻為傲 (科學松鼠會),他們從不提出自己的新的見解甚至幻想,怕被同行貶為民科。我們這邊做投行的投資一個新項目 第一句話問的就是“你這個項目在國外有成功案例 嗎?”如果說沒有,那麼投行一定不會投錢給你的。
    For the sake of other non-Mandarin speakers here, I shall reply in English to this portion of your post. Its all about the rigorous application the scientific method plus having your work peer-reviewed. And as it stands, the language barrier does play a part in limiting the amount of exposure non-English speaking countries have in the review process if I'm not mistaken.

    So, if you are referring strictly to citizens of PRC when describing them as "fear(ful) of innovation and can't accept a new idea...", you would probably know that more than anyone else. But do be more precise in your usage of the word "Chinese". Not all Chinese reside in China, not all Chinese are limited to Mandarin as a spoken language, not all Chinese have suffered through the cultural revolution that stunted (some argue regressed) its growth, not all Chinese fear innovation, and last but not least; not all Chinese aren't able to accept new ideas.

    To be very clear, Chinese as I see it is an ethnicity, and they neither reside in a specific country nor do they always possess the traits you have described them to have.
    how do you think you are different to the Chinese that what I said(你觉得你和我所说的国人有什么区别?).
    The mentality and attitude of those of Chinese descent (including myself) residing in my country differs vastly from how you have described them. This is the reason why I have pointed it out; that when you use the word "Chinese", it isn't restricted to mainly mainland Chinese residing in China, and that it in-fact points to the entire ethnic race.

    Did you say wanted to get back on topic in post #134? I've even agreed with your request in my subsequent post #135, further explaining to you and other readers of the imprecision of your use of the word "Chinese" may be misleading.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    where are your spiritual of innovation?why are you fear to facing the truth?that guy(my body) must think he is you(scoobydoo1)no doubt.you consciousness disappear from your body(just like you sleep),and arise from my body(just like you wake up).why are you try to avoid this question,this question is a key for yourself,for everyone self.the key can open a new world.even if you deny it,it will be come true.do you think you blind your eyes the sun will disappear?
    Can you please rephrase that?

    As far as I know, I haven't avoided answering your questions. I did mention earlier that your meaning may have gotten lost in the translation, possibly due to the language barrier or translation software that you may be using.
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    Maybe your English comprehension isn't that good.
    Maybe you should stop making irrelevant and insulting comments.

    By asking questions we get answers.
    By getting answers we increase our knowldege.
    To make it more clear, when he asked me 'if you loose your memory who are you', he is supposing I have an answer, right? Not in the slightest.
    Not in the slightest? Then why did he ask if he didn't want an answer? 'By asking questions we get answers.' Hmm...

    If you had enough money what's the first thing you'd buy?
    You obviously don't understand what I mean when I say 'suppose'. You expect an honest answer when you ask me that right? If I say I'll by a whale and put it in a giant tank like Bill Gates did, that's probably not true right? Well I can't give you a real answer because I don't have enough money at present, thus I can only assume that you suppose I have enough money, since you don't want a false answer.

    I detest questions begining with 'If you ... what would you do/think/feel?', because it concerns something that hasn't occured. Seeing that you're unable to understand my unfathomable logic shows that your comprehension skills need improving, Genius Duck .
    Last edited by Wise Man; July 21st, 2013 at 07:40 PM.
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  62. #162  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Man View Post
    Maybe you should stop making irrelevant and insulting comments.
    Oops, wrong.
    It was a direct comment on the level of comprehension you've displayed.
    As explained.

    Not in the slightest? Then why did he ask if he didn't want an answer? 'By asking questions we get answers.' Hmm...
    Your comprehension has failed again.
    Nowhere did I state, or imply, that he didn't want an answer.
    He asked to see whether or not you had one.

    You obviously don't understand what I mean when I say 'suppose'.
    Then you're not using the word correctly.

    You expect an honest answer when you ask me that right? If I say I'll by a whale and put it in a giant tank like Bill Gates did, that's probably not true right? Well I can't give you a real answer because I don't have enough money at present, therefore I can only assume you suppose I have enough money, since you don't want a false answer.
    So you ARE incapable of imagining what you'd buy.
    Okay.

    I detest questions begining with 'If you ... what would you do/think/feel?', because it concerns something that hasn't occured. Seeing that you're unable to understand my unfathomable logic shows that your comprehension skills need improving, Genius Duck .
    Again, you display a failure of imagination.
    I wonder how manage to get through a normal day.
    (PS: you haven't displayed any logic. Except negatively).

    And your claim to not be able to process "if" is false: as shown by your own posts -
    Quote Originally Posted by You
    Look, if this is something about who truly you are, I find spiritual books written by others far more convincing.
    Quote Originally Posted by You
    If you want to discuss this, I can make a new thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by You
    If you plot this function continuously, the area is actually bounded more than if you take discrete points
    "[Dywyddyr] makes a grumpy bastard like me seem like a happy go lucky scamp" - PhDemon
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    As far as I know, I haven't avoided answering your questions. I did mention earlier that your meaning may have gotten lost in the translation, possibly due to the language barrier or translation software that you may be using.
    I have to agree. This guy seems to be using Google Translate. What the hell is he talking about anyway? What IN THE WORLD IS THE KEY? And I'd like to point out that he's a real Chinese residence living in Beijing, as his profile suggests, he's Mandarin. He's obsessed with this god knows what 'key'...
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    To #163:

    I use 'if' in a different context if you haven't observed. I don't ask question in the form I mentioned.

    You mentioned imagination. Very good. So you admit that there's no way to answer such questions by relating to reality, one has to rely on one's imagination.
    Tell me, what is imagination? Isn't it just some thoughts in your head? By projecting such virtual and unrealistic thoughts on to reality is quite foolish. Although such doing is needed in order to live, i.e. you have to make plans for the future, when you really think about it it makes no sense. Nothing is ever planed really, it just happens as an event. One's imagination never matches reality.

    I suggest both of stop complimenting or despising each others level of comprehension, it looks so childish. ( You started it ! )
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  65. #165  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Man View Post
    To #163:
    I use 'if' in a different context if you haven't observed. I don't ask question in the form I mentioned.
    False.
    You used "if" in the exact same sense - this has not been done, but IF it were to be done then...

    Tell me, what is imagination? Isn't it just some thoughts in your head? By projecting such virtual and unrealistic thoughts on to reality is quite foolish.
    Nonsense.
    All invention is predicated on "if".
    Science relies on imagination and "if".

    Although such doing is needed in order to live, i.e. you have to make plans for the future, when you really think about it it makes no sense.
    In other words life is lived on a series of "ifs".

    Nothing is ever planed really, it just happens as an event.
    Yours maybe.

    One's imagination never matches reality.
    So what?
    No one expects an exact match.
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    this guy think who he is?(his brain is full of scoobydoo1's memory),这个人认为他自己是谁?(他脑子里全是你的记忆),我问了你很多遍,而且都给你标红了你都不回答,你还要我 说你什么!


    if you think my words had hurt your feeling,OK,I am sorry to you.and BYE.and you don't need to answer that question with red words.because I have myself's,this question's answer is for everyone self,not for other people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    这个人认为他自己是谁?(他脑子里全是你的记忆),
    For the benefit of other readers, I shall help translate and refine your question in a way that is understandable.

    Q: Who will this person (whose brain contains all of my "scoobydoo1"'s memories) think he/she is?

    Our brain hosts our mind, in other words, our identity in the form of our memories, knowledge, attitudes to various objects/subjects, preferences and prejudices (if any), etc. To put it simply, this "person" is the mind that inhabits the body. So, to answer your question directly in the way that I understand your question is that I would possess all my memories and attitudes that I had once possessed before the non-fictional "memories" transplant, but inhabiting your body.

    I would have thought the answer would be obvious, but if you disagree, do share your reasons why you disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    if you think my words had hurt your feeling,OK,I am sorry to you.and BYE.and you don't need to answer that question with red words.because I have myself's,this question's answer is for everyone self,not for other people.
    You haven't hurt any feelings.

    I simply find it somewhat tedious to follow what it is you are trying to say, ask, and put across to me and to general readers. And I do feel somewhat fustrated in communicating with you across what I can safely assume to be a language barrier, whilst not ignoring the fact that this forum is English orientated even when I can read and speak Mandarin.

    And since you have stated that you "don't care (for) philosophy" in post #152, I shall make a suggestion to moderators to move this thread to another subforum more suited for... whatever this thread is.
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  68. #168  
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    Quote Originally Posted by scoobydoo1 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    这个人认为他自己是谁?(他脑子里全是你的记忆),
    For the benefit of other readers, I shall help translate and refine your question in a way that is understandable.

    Q: Who will this person (whose brain contains all of my "scoobydoo1"'s memories) think he/she is?

    Our brain hosts our mind, in other words, our identity in the form of our memories, knowledge, attitudes to various objects/subjects, preferences and prejudices (if any), etc. To put it simply, this "person" is the mind that inhabits the body. So, to answer your question directly in the way that I understand your question is that I would possess all my memories and attitudes that I had once possessed before the non-fictional "memories" transplant, but inhabiting your body.

    I would have thought the answer would be obvious, but if you disagree, do share your reasons why you disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    if you think my words had hurt your feeling,OK,I am sorry to you.and BYE.and you don't need to answer that question with red words.because I have myself's,this question's answer is for everyone self,not for other people.
    You haven't hurt any feelings.

    I simply find it somewhat tedious to follow what it is you are trying to say, ask, and put across to me and to general readers. And I do feel somewhat fustrated in communicating with you across what I can safely assume to be a language barrier, whilst not ignoring the fact that this forum is English orientated even when I can read and speak Mandarin.

    And since you have stated that you "don't care (for) philosophy" in post #152, I shall make a suggestion to moderators to move this thread to another subforum more suited for... whatever this thread is.
    directly!
    I have doubt about my logic,Does anyone else has the same feeling?
    OK ,this guy(full of scoobydoo1's memory) think what is his name?puzzler or scoobydoo1and where is his homeland,china or Singapore?
    Last edited by puzzler; July 22nd, 2013 at 12:00 AM.
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  69. #169  
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    You know, sometimes you are like naughty little boys that need a freaking spanking!! Sheesh....stop the testosterone feedings and if you are going to debate then DEBATE......SHEESH!
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    I'm resolved to ignore Dywyddyr in this thread at least.

    puzzler, go read my post above, or I'll post it again:

    Originally Posted by puzzler
    Originally Posted by Wise Man
    Look, if this is something about who truly you are, I find spiritual books written by others far more convincing. Chinese philosophers like Lao Zi have much better theories, I don't understand where this 'key' of yours come from. It seems like something that popped up in your head.

    You are the consciousness, right now, as you read this, you are a mere perceiver, your superficial identity doesn't matter, just stop reading right now and close your eyes, stop identifying with your body and feel your inner self. That inner self is the real you.

    If you want to discuss this, I can make a new thread. I was famous once on this forum for my thread 'Obejective vs. Subjective'.



    read your memory is the "KEY",open a new world to you.free your life.you don't understand what I had said yet.
    what is the inner self?can you describe it?my memory is in my brain's inner,do you mean that?you sound like a Psychic.the simple question can you answer?if you lose your all memory,you think who are you?
    why some people can't know this very simple question.



    你自己能回答这个问题吗?未生我时谁是我,生我之时我是谁。这是非常奥妙的问题,自古以来多少 人探索过,你 算个什么就在此胡言乱语,什么是'Key'?听着像是邪教, 这些外国人不会买你这一套。

    The question itself, 'if I loose me memory who I am' is a stupid question, you are supposing I shall loose my memory. Well I have it now, that's all I need to know, I needn't worry about my loosing memory, I live in the now, not in some unrealistic future.

    最后劝告一下:北京现在空气不好,也许你的精神有点问题,要不去别处休养吧,怀柔,密云或是郊 区。
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  71. #171  
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    Oops. Wrong thread.
    Dywyddyr likes this.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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  72. #172  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wise Man View Post
    I'm resolved to ignore Dywyddyr in this thread at least.

    puzzler, go read my post above, or I'll post it again:

    Originally Posted by puzzler
    Originally Posted by Wise Man
    Look, if this is something about who truly you are, I find spiritual books written by others far more convincing. Chinese philosophers like Lao Zi have much better theories, I don't understand where this 'key' of yours come from. It seems like something that popped up in your head.

    You are the consciousness, right now, as you read this, you are a mere perceiver, your superficial identity doesn't matter, just stop reading right now and close your eyes, stop identifying with your body and feel your inner self. That inner self is the real you.

    If you want to discuss this, I can make a new thread. I was famous once on this forum for my thread 'Obejective vs. Subjective'.



    read your memory is the "KEY",open a new world to you.free your life.you don't understand what I had said yet.
    what is the inner self?can you describe it?my memory is in my brain's inner,do you mean that?you sound like a Psychic.the simple question can you answer?if you lose your all memory,you think who are you?
    why some people can't know this very simple question.



    你自己能回答这个问题吗?未生我时谁是我,生我之时我是谁。这是非常奥妙的问题,自古以来多少 人探索过,你 算个什么就在此胡言乱语,什么是'Key'?听着像是邪教, 这些外国人不会买你这一套。

    The question itself, 'if I loose me memory who I am' is a stupid question, you are supposing I shall loose my memory. Well I have it now, that's all I need to know, I needn't worry about my loosing memory, I live in the now, not in some unrealistic future.

    最后劝告一下:北京现在空气不好,也许你的精神有点问题,要不去别处休养吧,怀柔,密云或是郊 区。
    我精神都有问题了,你还老找我谈哲学,你是不是也该去看看了。
    I don't want talk to you.my logic and imagination can't match yours.you are too famous,I am scared.
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  73. #173  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Oops. Wrong thread.
    what's wrong with the thread?my topic?
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  74. #174  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Oops. Wrong thread.
    what's wrong with the thread?my topic?
    I posted something which didn't apply to this thread.
    "Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us." -Calvin
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    Look puzzler, I don't mean to be rude, but from your weird and whimsical words and theory I can only assume either you're too tired and need some sleep or there's some mental problem in you. 对不起如果我侮辱了你,我只是觉得你所说的'key'和理论实在太离奇,从未听说过。
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  76. #176  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Oops. Wrong thread.
    what's wrong with the thread?my topic?
    Give it in simple and clear way in spite of just filling page and page and page

    what is your theory give its summary in 10 to 20 lines
    "No law of Physics is surprising & can not beat commonsense until it does not give enough explanation logically or I did not understand it rightly or simply it is wrong "
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  77. #177  
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAJ_K View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Flick Montana View Post
    Oops. Wrong thread.
    what's wrong with the thread?my topic?
    Give it in simple and clear way in spite of just filling page and page and page

    what is your theory give its summary in 10 to 20 lines
    please look at 11#,12#,13#,121#.the 11#and 121# are the same thing in different expression.13# is a AI program,you can check it.you are right,this thread is chaos,somebody don't know what I say.so I maybe mark it up
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  78. #178  
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    Frankly this thread has become increasingly boring.
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Frankly this thread has become increasingly boring.
    always boring since I opened this thread.
    people don't understand what I said or can't accept it .so they have no further questions to ask me,I just always explain those at the first step.I have already used the "key"open a new world to me and I have saw many secret things in there(you can laugh at me).and I think this situation has some reasons.maybe the timing is not come.I talked too early.so I never blame it,I do it as my duty.because I believe what I have done just is a part of nature's willing(you can take me as a insane).

    people like to against me,don't want to follow my question.just like some guy.so I also felt boring.I want to discuss with some people and discover the new world together,you know work with some smart guys is a interesting thing,we can enlighten to each other.and you can against my opinion,but at least you have to face my question.and we solve the question together.not play a logic game,that never get the right result.
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  80. #180  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Frankly this thread has become increasingly boring.
    always boring since I opened this thread.
    people don't understand what I said or can't accept it .so they have no further questions to ask me,I just always explain those at the first step.I have already used the "key"open a new world to me and I have saw many secret things in there(you can laugh at me).and I think this situation has some reasons.maybe the time is not come.I talked too early.so I never blame it,I do it as my duty.because I believe what I have done just is a part of nature's willing(you can take me as a insane).
    I do not laugh or make fun of people as a rule of thumb. But your thoughts are disjointed. I know many people of different cultures and have never been unable to ascertain what they were trying to explain to me, unless they used technical lingo that I am utterly unfamiliar with. I simply do not understand most of what you are saying other than you are talking about basically "Donating" a body to someone else, and I am not sure that is what you are saying. No offense is intended, by any means!
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  81. #181  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Frankly this thread has become increasingly boring.
    always boring since I opened this thread.
    people don't understand what I said or can't accept it .so they have no further questions to ask me,I just always explain those at the first step.I have already used the "key"open a new world to me and I have saw many secret things in there(you can laugh at me).and I think this situation has some reasons.maybe the time is not come.I talked too early.so I never blame it,I do it as my duty.because I believe what I have done just is a part of nature's willing(you can take me as a insane).
    I do not laugh or make fun of people as a rule of thumb. But your thoughts are disjointed. I know many people of different cultures and have never been unable to ascertain what they were trying to explain to me, unless they used technical lingo that I am utterly unfamiliar with. I simply do not understand most of what you are saying other than you are talking about basically "Donating" a body to someone else, and I am not sure that is what you are saying. No offense is intended, by any means!
    OK,I would like to ask those question to you again,and you think these carefully.them so simple,any people can answer it.
    1:who are you?step 1:lose your all memory.step 2: put my memory into your brain .3:your brain has been fulled my memory(I call it as TA),and you image the scene,what TA would do when TA wake up this morning (not surprise,this thing is we both agree and notify our family and friends).
    if you can get it.I will ask you the follow questions.
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  82. #182  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Frankly this thread has become increasingly boring.
    always boring since I opened this thread.
    people don't understand what I said or can't accept it .so they have no further questions to ask me,I just always explain those at the first step.I have already used the "key"open a new world to me and I have saw many secret things in there(you can laugh at me).and I think this situation has some reasons.maybe the time is not come.I talked too early.so I never blame it,I do it as my duty.because I believe what I have done just is a part of nature's willing(you can take me as a insane).
    I do not laugh or make fun of people as a rule of thumb. But your thoughts are disjointed. I know many people of different cultures and have never been unable to ascertain what they were trying to explain to me, unless they used technical lingo that I am utterly unfamiliar with. I simply do not understand most of what you are saying other than you are talking about basically "Donating" a body to someone else, and I am not sure that is what you are saying. No offense is intended, by any means!
    OK,I would like to ask those question to you again,and you think these carefully.them so simple,any people can answer it.
    1:who are you?step 1:lose your all memory.step 2: put my memory into your brain .3:your brain has been fulled my memory(I call it as TA),and you image the scene,what TA would do when TA wake up this morning (not surprise,this thing is we both agree and notify our family and friends).
    if you can get it.I will ask you the follow questions.
    1. I am myself....I really hope no one else is me!
    Step 1. OK
    2. Your memories aren't mine so why would I want them in my brain?
    3. I don't think either of our families would be pleased. They probably liked us as we were, i.e. as ourselves.

    My question is why do I want your memories?

    Are you speaking of exchange of knowledge between people?

    I am sorry but this is still not clear.
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  83. #183  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post

    1. I am myself....I really hope no one else is me!
    Step 1. OK
    2. Your memories aren't mine so why would I want them in my brain?
    3. I don't think either of our families would be pleased. They probably liked us as we were, i.e. as ourselves.

    My question is why do I want your memories?

    Are you speaking of exchange of knowledge between people?

    I am sorry but this is still not clear.
    OK,you don't get this presumption's point,let's assume a perfect environment about this experiment. you and I both agree to change our body or memory.and our family,friends,even police know this thing and they will not interfere in it.(exclude the external influence)
    so let me continue ask you
    1:your all memory has gone(lost),how do you know who you are?
    2:my memory is in your brain,what would your brain use them?

    this presumption is for clear more secret about our real life and our future.and I have many questions yet to ask you if you want to follow these questions.and you can take these questions to ask your friends,your family's member,your teacher.and think these questions carefully.don't need to quick answer.and you may reverse this question that your memory bring into my brain(we also call it as TA(chinese spelling,means is she ,he ,it)).you can image when your memory bring into my bring,how does TA think TAself(what is TA's family,TA's name TA's job,TA's lover...)

    and this is not exchange our knowledge,it is transfer our life,but don't be hurry,you will know it later when you answer my some questions.

    I prefer to recommend some movies to help you to take these questions ,name is <unknown>,two different movies name this title.both you can watch and feel all these role's feeling.
    this time I take some questions for what's your identity(objective).
    and next time I will ask some questions for your consciousness(feeling)(about your subjective),and I advise you take these questions to ask your people too.so this thread will not boring to you any more.

    https://johnib.wordpress.com/2013/07...f-chromosomes/
    Last edited by puzzler; July 23rd, 2013 at 11:31 PM.
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  84. #184  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post

    1. I am myself....I really hope no one else is me!
    Step 1. OK
    2. Your memories aren't mine so why would I want them in my brain?
    3. I don't think either of our families would be pleased. They probably liked us as we were, i.e. as ourselves.

    My question is why do I want your memories?

    Are you speaking of exchange of knowledge between people?

    I am sorry but this is still not clear.
    OK,you don't get this presumption's point,let's assume a perfect environment about this experiment. you and I both agree to change our body or memory.and our family,friends,even police know this thing and they will not interfere in it.(exclude the external influence)
    so let me continue ask you
    1:your all memory has gone(lost),how do you know who you are?
    2:my memory is in your brain,what would your brain use them?

    this presumption is for clear more secret about our real life and our future.and I have many questions yet to ask you if you want to follow these questions.and you can take these questions to ask your friends,your family's member,your teacher.and think these questions carefully.don't need to quick answer.and you may reverse this question that your memory bring into my brain(we also call it as TA(chinese spelling,means is she ,he ,it)).you can image when your memory bring into my bring,how does TA think TAself(what is TA's family,TA's name TA's job,TA's lover...)

    and this is not exchange our knowledge,it is transfer our life,but don't be hurry,you will know it later when you answer my some questions.

    I prefer to recommend some movies to help you to take these questions ,name is <unknown>,two different movies name this title.both you can watch and feel all these role's feeling.
    this time I take some questions for what's your identity(objective).
    and next time I will ask some questions for your consciousness(feeling)(about your subjective),and I advise you take these questions to ask your people too.so this thread will not boring to you any more.

    https://johnib.wordpress.com/2013/07...f-chromosomes/
    IN all honesty, and without rancor.. .....this is just freaking nuts. No offense intended. You make no sense. I kind of understand what you are saying, but Mr. Puzzler, I wouldn't agree to your assumption that anyone would want your body in a million years. Frankly, I like my own, I like my mind, I like my emotions and I love my family and friends...so I am sorry but to me this conversation is ended. Good luck on your explorations however......
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  85. #185  
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    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    IN all honesty, and without rancor.. .....this is just freaking nuts. No offense intended. You make no sense. I kind of understand what you are saying, but Mr. Puzzler, I wouldn't agree to your assumption that anyone would want your body in a million years. Frankly, I like my own, I like my mind, I like my emotions and I love my family and friends...so I am sorry but to me this conversation is ended. Good luck on your explorations however......
    yes,we all like ourselves,our family and so on.I take the assumption just make you understand easy.do you notice I added a hyperlink at the last in my post?
    do you aware that we all will die in someday in future?we will have to lost all what we loved in ourselves last day,that is truly lost,we can't keep our lover forever. if you really love your family,your friends,and other things.you will choose the special sleep in your last day.because you can't help to lost them.even the body is different(you can make a clone).
    for example,if your husband will die tomorrow,do you want him back?you can take his gene to make a clone.and take out his memory infuse into new body's brain.for this,the new body(new man )will remember all things between yours.your anniversary,how did you raising your kids and all things just like your husband .but young and health.
    do you know why I tried to preach this theory?it just for my last day.and now the question is that we maybe miss the timing of have this special sleep.I was 38.I hope the technology can be useful within 30-50 years,maybe I can catch up the time.I fear of this scene,I lie on the bed and my family and friends around me, we have nothing can do except waiting my death.do you want that?have you seen that?
    or you can say a word to your family with smile"waiting for me,I will be back soon.and I will young again"
    Last edited by puzzler; July 24th, 2013 at 05:31 AM.
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  86. #186  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    IN all honesty, and without rancor.. .....this is just freaking nuts. No offense intended. You make no sense. I kind of understand what you are saying, but Mr. Puzzler, I wouldn't agree to your assumption that anyone would want your body in a million years. Frankly, I like my own, I like my mind, I like my emotions and I love my family and friends...so I am sorry but to me this conversation is ended. Good luck on your explorations however......
    yes,we all like ourselves,our family and so on.I take the assumption just make you understand easy.do you notice I added a hyperlink at the last in my post?
    do you aware that we all will die in someday in future?we will have to lost all what we loved in ourselves last day,that is truly lost,if you really love your family,your friends,and other things.you will take this special sleep.because you can't help to lost them.even the body is different(you can make a clone)

    Excuse me..I just lost my 38 year old SCIENTIST nephew to pancreatic cancer...with a 3 and 8 year old

    I find your advertisement for what you are pushing distasteful to say the least.

    for example,if your husband will die tomorrow,do you want him back?you can take his gene to make a clone.and take out his memory infuse into new body's brain.for this,the new body(new man )will remember all things between yours.your anniversary,how did you raising your kids and all things just like your husband .but young and health.
    do you know why I tried to preach this theory?it just for my last day.
    and sorry, I'm pretty damn hot looking and I could get another husband in a month...but frankly....I don't want another one....I like and love the one I have and if he died...I think I'd just give the one I find I like a place in my life minus marriage.

    So none of your idiotic assumptions really entice me.

    Try...someone suspended.
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  87. #187  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Frankly this thread has become increasingly boring.
    always boring since I opened this thread.
    You are talking about transferring memories from a dying or deceased brain into a cloned copy a la the movie, "The Sixth Day."

    The problem is that in any of our lifetimes, we will most likely not have the technology available to do so, much less public approval for cloning due to some members of the populace's ideas of what is moral and what isn't. It's not that it is boring as much as a moot point at this time.
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    ok,I will not push this lady again.
    why no one can face my questions.these questions can reveal some secret that you always want to know.what are you fear?who can play this game with me to the end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Frankly this thread has become increasingly boring.
    always boring since I opened this thread.
    You are talking about transferring memories from a dying or deceased brain into a cloned copy a la the movie, "The Sixth Day."

    The problem is that in any of our lifetimes, we will most likely not have the technology available to do so, much less public approval for cloning due to some members of the populace's ideas of what is moral and what isn't. It's not that it is boring as much as a moot point at this time.
    it's a loop.your question I have already answered before and put the hyperlink with the read-mind technology.and the ethic will be changed to adapt to human society's development.just a problem of time.because ethic is made by human not nature.the most violation of ethics thing's is war,we do it in every day.
    Last edited by puzzler; July 24th, 2013 at 06:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    Frankly this thread has become increasingly boring.
    always boring since I opened this thread.
    You are talking about transferring memories from a dying or deceased brain into a cloned copy a la the movie, "The Sixth Day."

    The problem is that in any of our lifetimes, we will most likely not have the technology available to do so, much less public approval for cloning due to some members of the populace's ideas of what is moral and what isn't. It's not that it is boring as much as a moot point at this time.

    MERCI!!! MERCI!! MAHALO!!! also!
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    it's a loop.your question I have already answered before and put the hyperlink with the read-mind technology.and the ethic will be changed to adapt to human society's development.just a problem of time.because ethic is made by human not nature.the most violation of ethics thing's is war,we do it in every day.
    Currently, such ethical considerations are heavily influenced by religious belief. As such, there will be no stem cell research, cloning, mind recording or any such things going on as long as strong religious influence remains a part of the majority of a populaces daily living.
    Quote Originally Posted by babe View Post
    MERCI!!! MERCI!! MAHALO!!! also!
    I do not understand.
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  92. #192  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Currently, such ethical considerations are heavily influenced by religious belief. As such, there will be no stem cell research, cloning, mind recording or any such things going on as long as strong religious influence remains a part of the majority of a populaces daily living.
    all we talk about is a very long time thing.not several decade years.for the long time(hundred,thousand years even forever) we need open our mind.accept we don't know but have some reasonable things. someone feel it's boring but they refuse to open their mind.so what can I do.
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  93. #193  
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    Quote Originally Posted by puzzler View Post
    all we talk about is a very long time thing.not several decade years.for the long time(hundred,thousand years even forever) we need open our mind.accept we don't know but have some reasonable things. someone feel it's boring but they refuse to open their mind.so what can I do.
    I agree, really, that the talk would be interesting. Think about Aristotle and Plato debating the Atom (Yes, they did that.)
    But it won't change anything about the world.
    I'll admit, I've only caught snippets of what you've said. But I agree with most everything I've read. We are extremely complex with a lot of different factors from chemical makeup, genetic make up and experience/memory make up. To say a person is "this" (Not reality is That) means all of those factors combined- and to make an android (Or Clarke style 'robot') would be an off kilter version; it wouldn't know what it was like to be a child or love ice cream or feel an orgasm or the results of it as the primal emotions of parenting... It wouldn't get gassy or know the flavor of Dr. Pepper as a favorite.
    But I do think we can get reasonably close and even sooner than one might think in some aspects. Some researchers have gotten robotic machines to recognize scent and touch. Within a thousand years, we may have a lot of the groundwork done for mimicking a human being.
    But if you really want to transfer your memories into a vessel after death, "The Sixth Day" style of cloning and recording really seems the way to go. Because any other method seems that what came after wouldn't be "you" anymore.
    Anymore than "You" are the same "you" that you were ten years ago. That was a different person. But very similar.

    Which brings us back to Plato and Aristotle. They were philosophers and not scientists. And they did not change the world, either. Much of their works we know from small snatches of writings from other people that took notes of what they said in lectures.

    Had the Library of Alexandria not been shaked and baked, perhaps things might have been different. Maybe. But I do not think it would have been much.
    While the ancient philosophers are largely known about today- it is a bit of a revival. They were forgotten in short order and only recently brought back into the limelight. Before long, they will probably be forgotten again.
    It was not until technology caught up with Humanity and our culture had changed to the point of less superstition, dogma and domination and became more one of acceptance that what they discussed back then can be openly examined so readily by the masses now.

    Talking about the ethical implications here, in this thread, is much the same. It will be forgotten and we are certainly not Plato or Aristotle. There won't be a revival and our talks would be largely ignorant of the actual science involved in such a process.
    After a thousand years or maybe three thousand, the human culture may have (We cannot predict the direction) changed quite a bit and such ethical considerations of today will no longer be an issue or applicable at that future time.
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    fortunately,I can understand what you'v written.it's not easy for me.
    1:I don't care philosophy or science.I just care about the thing.how can I solve it.this is what I do.I noticed the life is a process,today I sleep and all my consciousness be lost(maybe have a dream),tomorrow I wake up and all my consciousness be back.and if I lost my memory forever during my sleep.then when I wake up I will an another guy(even if my family tell me who I am,I will not the original guy.because I lost my past).so this enlighten me.GOD(my GOD,not Christian GOD)had already told us what can we do,just the time not coming.and I saw that news(read-mind) later.I was exciting that we have hope to make this special sleep.
    2:I was a salesman before,far away from philosophy or science.and my degree just college(3 years).I never think I will care about those things.in that time,I just cared my product,price,market and so on.and since the joke(it happened in 2008,please refer #22),I found various clue in succession.it seems that someone put them in front of me in order(I have said I do this for duty).so in other thread"free will"I have said do we have own free will(it likes superstition,but I know it not,just the time coming.so all clues show to me like the news about read-mind and other news:PLOS ONE: If I Were You: Perceptual Illusion of Body Swapping ),and I use this theory found some secret about us about future about more,I always ask myself and answer it by myself.and I had published five articles in Chinese magazine<The Journal of UFO Research>.so I thought that's my fate.
    3:about memory and life,many movie and religion had talked about ,but not go deep into.the reason I think maybe we fear of facing our real life.just like what happened in here.
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