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Thread: PEACE: How's it Going to Happen?

  1. #1 PEACE: How's it Going to Happen? 
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    What's it going to take? Is it even possible for humans to live in peace?

    I'm talking about no skirmishes anywhere, a lay down or destruction of all weapons, a complete trust and care for each other, a global society that makes love not war. IOW's something totally opposite to what we have now.

    But before we destroy our weapons, will it be necessary to use some first? If we do should we totally eradicate the enemy, remove them from the face of the planet? Or on a less violent scale, would abundance of food keep us from ripping each other's throat out? One religion may be where we need to get to, or maybe no religion. Get off the planet perhaps and start anew? Divine intervention is way down on my probability list but you never know.

    So how in hell are we going to make it happen?


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    It would require a complete re-working of the human brain. Not too likely to happen anytime soon.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    It would require a complete re-working of the human brain. Not too likely to happen anytime soon.
    What if it could be done with a device of some kind. Could you call it a weapon? Who would get to use it and who would we model it after?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post

    What if it could be done with a device of some kind. Could you call it a weapon? Who would get to use it and who would we model it after?
    Of it was done without a re-working of the brain, such a device would, indeed, be a terrible weapon.
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    Seems as if attaining peace is damn near impossible without deploying a weapon of some major hurt. If that's the case then we are on our way to being the most peaceful planet this side of the Milky Way. For Christ sake, is there no other options?
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Seems as if attaining peace is damn near impossible without deploying a weapon of some major hurt. If that's the case then we are on our way to the peaceful planet this side of the Milky Way. For Christ sake, is there no other options?
    It's our nature. Yet, you make it sound like it's all negative. Not necessarily.
    Consider, what if the Milky Way Galaxy is host to many planets, not even far away, with technologically advanced alien beings- that are violent.

    We better fit in or get devoured.

    Honestly, I believe humanity should hold off on altering ourselves until we know what kind of neighborhood we live in.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    It's our nature. Yet, you make it sound like it's all negative. Not necessarily.
    Consider, what if the Milky Way Galaxy is host to many planets, not even far away, with technologically advanced alien beings- that are violent.

    We better fit in or get devoured.

    Honestly, I believe humanity should hold off on altering ourselves until we know what kind of neighborhood we live in.
    Actually if you think about, can't know what peace is without having a war or two. Peace is like kissing your ass, you know it's there but not easy to accomplish (apologies to those who can).
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  9. #8 Warning- Long post 
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    "Peace" is a concept word. Like "love" and "atheist."

    To have total peace, you would need to remove most of the emotions that make us human. It is a price that, personally, I would be unwilling to pay.
    Many people on forums seem to promote a viewpoint of almost pacifist perfection, some kind of utopian standard. They seem to promote this as if it's an improvement over our current state. As if it is progress.

    But I don't hold with that. It doesn't sit right with me. I think we need to go forward... by going backward.

    We need to digress a bit. Get back in touch with our roots. Be meaner, tougher and more honest.

    If our world is any indication, the Universe is not a soft and easy place. If Astronomical Observation is any indication, out there is a dark, foreboding, cold and unfriendly place.
    It's beauty lies in its ruggedness. It's untamed and untameable.

    My own perception of the concept word "peace" includes violence. It includes survival and instinct. To me, "peaceful" includes knowing you're alive. Feeling alive.
    You go mountain climbing... as you pull yourself up a jagged edge, your piton slips and for a brief moment the only thing holding you up is air.
    As you plunge downward, your arm shoots out and claws the edge of rock.
    Your fall arrested, you use every bit of your strength to haul yourself up and over the edge. And as you sit, on the ragged edge and look down at unclaimed death...
    You feel at peace.
    A moment.
    Then it passes and onward you climb.

    "Peace" to me is embracing what makes us human. We are not perfection, not pacifists, not drones. We're artists and warriors, dreamers and builders; We are diverse and filled with conflict, driven by desire and survival. We battle in court rooms and in congress. We battle on forums of all kinds and on television. We fight for ourselves, our world, eachother. We fight side by side and against. We oppose eachother and we support eachother. We put ourselves in direct danger to save others and we attack eachother.

    I cannot think of anything more peaceful... Than a human race that embraces our being and our nature. That stops trying to "fix us."

    Let's cheer each other on. Congratulate on a good match or a victory, send the loser to train harder. Let's stop thinking there's something wrong with us and making a strange and corrupted society that seeks blame and scapegoats. Let's stop controlling eachother and telling eachother what to believe and what to do. Maybe, when we stop meddling, stop trying to fix us, maybe then we will know: Peace.
    Last edited by Neverfly; November 21st, 2012 at 12:21 AM.
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    Could we ever become so deluded as to think in terms of intergalactic war? That is of course if we find some other intelligence(s) out there competing for the same resources. Not that with billions of interplanetary systems to exploit there would be a great demand for certain materials, but who the hell knows? Even if we don't ever come across another intelligence then do we still need to worry about our closest neighbours here on Earth? I shudder to think that humanity would continue their conflicts in the outer recesses of space over disagreements on how to divvy up the universe's booty or territory.

    So in case intergalactic travel develops will mankind need to keep their aggressive and sometimes violent characteristics? Would simply getting off the planet instill a more passive attitude within our ascendents' tendencies. Would intelligent beings need to resort to violence in a bountiful universe? I remember these thoughts popping into my head the first time I watched Star Wars, how ridiculous it seemed to me that a race would want to control a galaxy and kill for it. As if there wasn't enough galaxy for everyone. The thought of war expanding to a universal level seems even more ludicrous.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    You don't need agression to kill, or to hurt, or to protect.

    Being an animal means you cannot control when you act in these ways... Being of a higher mind means you can pick and choose exactly when and why you do something.

    Urges such as violence and agression are completely unecesary for the survival of man... all they lead to is mistakes and rash actions.
    They are in no way needed for any purpose.

    Debunk...
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    When we focus on the brain and understand the differences between physical, emotional and mental urges. All problems in society are caused by urges and then reinforced by mental urges such as conditioning.
    "If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe". - Carl Sagan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    When we focus on the brain and understand the differences between physical, emotional and mental urges. All problems in society are caused by urges and then reinforced by mental urges such as conditioning.
    Hmmm physical urges are ingrained... but can be overcome by the mind (if you would want or need), or can be made stronger by the mind.

    'Emotional urges' are developed subconsciously as a result of conscious thought.

    Conscious thought can condition our urges to be weaker or stronger.

    Basically an urge is an impulse to do something... eating and sex must come naturally enough.
    Impulses can absolutely be created... through the mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by question for you View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Quantime View Post
    When we focus on the brain and understand the differences between physical, emotional and mental urges. All problems in society are caused by urges and then reinforced by mental urges such as conditioning.
    Hmmm physical urges are ingrained... but can be overcome by the mind (if you would want or need), or can be made stronger by the mind.

    'Emotional urges' are developed subconsciously as a result of conscious thought.

    Conscious thought can condition our urges to be weaker or stronger.

    Basically an urge is an impulse to do something... eating and sex must come naturally enough.
    Impulses can absolutely be created... through the mind.
    Exactly, basic urges are there from the reptilian and mammilian brains, our human brain is designed and evolved to interperet situations before they happen but again based on previous experience. If all you experience is hate and attack upon yourself your mind will rationally deduce that you will become under attack again and to satisfy that, will assume there is an enemy. Then it will adopt beliefs that reinforce the feelings to defend oneself that overrides the conscious human empathy in order to sanely feel ok about killing people. Soldiers are a common example of this, but it doesn't work as many come out of the forces with mental illnesses, quite so as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    What's it going to take? Is it even possible for humans to live in peace?

    I'm talking about no skirmishes anywhere, a lay down or destruction of all weapons, a complete trust and care for each other, a global society that makes love not war. IOW's something totally opposite to what we have now.

    But before we destroy our weapons, will it be necessary to use some first? If we do should we totally eradicate the enemy, remove them from the face of the planet? Or on a less violent scale, would abundance of food keep us from ripping each other's throat out? One religion may be where we need to get to, or maybe no religion. Get off the planet perhaps and start anew? Divine intervention is way down on my probability list but you never know.

    So how in hell are we going to make it happen?
    The day human needs and work are not required is the day humanity might start setting a course, or path of evolution, towards peace.
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    It would require a complete re-working of the human brain.
    False, imo (in the physical sense). The human brain is a sponge that starts with virtually nothing, you learn to see. It accepts the premise that something is far when its small, because that is what it perceives and models as reality, and learns to find that to be normal.

    Imo, the human brain is not the problem, human society, that has all too slowly evolved from the primitive cavemen through the feudal theistic middle ages on to today, IS the problem, but we are brought up in it, it is very difficult to see our society is invalid. A caveman doesnt say hey I should wear humidity-breathing-synthetic-clothing but finds wearing the skin of dead animal perfectly normal. The Roman centurion doesnt say "hey I should be flying in 20 minutes to Carthage in a A380 with a champagne, movie and reclining seat" he finds drifting on a Galley powered by rowing slaves "normal", just as he may find it normal that slaves help out or might find human being a assassinating each other in a crowded Coliseum to be wholesome entertainment. Sure we might not like war, but we find "normal" most of the social/organizational legacies that make war a reality.

    As Hermann Göring pointed out, most people dont want War (thank god for small favors), so usually a minority (that are often willing to fight to the last drop of other peoples blood) pulls the strings to catapult wars. The Minority, typically uses a cocktail of Money, Hierarchy, Control of Information to pull the strings that lead to war, usually power (control/money/etc) is an objective and the minority uses Money, Hierarchy and Control of Information (each of which can be mutually leveraged to obtain more influence) to whip the population into wanting war and supporting it and even volunteering to sacrifice themselves (or otherwise not opposing it efficiently). (I would add that a holistic view also missing, as opposed to the individualistic world view that is propagated by our society, but its a secondary aspect).
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    What's it going to take? Is it even possible for humans to live in peace?

    I'm talking about no skirmishes anywhere, a lay down or destruction of all weapons, a complete trust and care for each other, a global society that makes love not war. IOW's something totally opposite to what we have now.

    But before we destroy our weapons, will it be necessary to use some first? If we do should we totally eradicate the enemy, remove them from the face of the planet? Or on a less violent scale, would abundance of food keep us from ripping each other's throat out? One religion may be where we need to get to, or maybe no religion. Get off the planet perhaps and start anew? Divine intervention is way down on my probability list but you never know.

    So how in hell are we going to make it happen?
    How about 'Love thy neighbour as thyself' regardless of the cost?

    big
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    Make it the law. Say "moral," see, then say "peace. "If they look down, or grimace, shoot them. Not all men go together. Wait, do you guys know about good & evil?

    The telepaths know what's going to happen. Lets make it so they can't deny they hear us. Any skhizo's on the board? Im one.

    Telepathy will bring peace, anyone interested just show everyone like a monkey when you get a skitz-o-gram, they will understand. Eventually everyone will be flinging their arms in the air. When ever the guy in the car next to me telepaths to me I make a distinctive motion. If you haven't seen a dog smile yet your missing out telepaths ftw.

    I am able to communicate to other moral telepaths live, and receive messages back. I am able to believe so I don't need you to make hand signals, but for others whenever I have something to say I motion it to them. Or if I hear something I like I clap. Be brave. They are angels, people know the universe, you can't escape. There is no back door. The dead aren't gone, they are behind the curtain. Understand the imagination in synced, between us all.

    -Peace
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    Maybe that's all it will take.... We all become insanely nice.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Maybe that's all it will take.... We all become insanely nice.
    Please... Let me be dead before that day comes...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Maybe that's all it will take.... We all become insanely nice.
    Please... Let me be dead before that day comes...
    LOL . Now excuse me while I lay myself down amongst the lions.
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    EDUCATION, ELIMINATION OF GENDERISM, A EVERYONE MUST HAVE A I.Q. OF 100 OR HIGHER AND IF IT IS BELOW. YOU ARE TO BE RE-SCHOOLED AND IF YOU ARE UNABLE TO ADVANCED YOU ARE TO SEEK OTHER MEANS OF PROGRESSING, AND OR THE INABILITY TO PROGRESS WOULD/COULD BE LABELED AS A DISABILITY BILL.

    After everyone is re-schooled, took care of has un-static-phied their cognitive abilities., a re-schooling policy, a self-cognitive preservation policy (to maintain ones self cognitive abilities) and paying everyone to be away from work or home.

    If you dislike, going to school again, little girls playing with cho-cho- trains instead of barbie, having to do home work everyday, earning compensation. then vote NO on the bill.

    That is what could change the world in to a better place, I would think.
    With bravery and recognition that we are harbingers of our destiny and with a paragon of virtue.
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    Hey, who's moral? Want to get into it? Telepathy is the key. Know good vs. evil. Know all. Some must go to hell (Sweden 2013), some MUST BE SHOT.

    The President knows about this, so let us speak keenly of it. This a good act! Why one go help, why one go rape? Why this one get abuse and give love, and he get abuse and go abuse?

    "What we've go here is failure to communicate. Some men we just can't reach. So we give up what we had here last week. This is the way he want's it! Well he get's it! N' I don't like it any more than you do, men."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Maybe that's all it will take.... We all become insanely nice.
    Please... Let me be dead before that day comes...
    Its comming. Will nice kill you?
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    If we were to take a world survey, and somehow filter out the effects of the current situation each is in. I think we would find that an overwhelming majority would prefer not to fight. In which case the question would be why do they. My brief answer. Not enough opportunities to escape.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Seems as if attaining peace is damn near impossible without deploying a weapon of some major hurt. If that's the case then we are on our way to the peaceful planet this side of the Milky Way. For Christ sake, is there no other options?
    It's our nature. Yet, you make it sound like it's all negative. Not necessarily.
    Consider, what if the Milky Way Galaxy is host to many planets, not even far away, with technologically advanced alien beings- that are violent.

    We better fit in or get devoured.

    Honestly, I believe humanity should hold off on altering ourselves until we know what kind of neighborhood we live in.

    So let's hurry up and build faster ships so we can outrun them and remain at peace. They may blow themselves up while we are breeding like crazy, and populating the galaxy.
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    Oh, I dunno- I'd rather be an amoeba than a virus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Oh, I dunno- I'd rather be an amoeba than a virus.
    viruses adapt better.
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    Perhaps and I think this is why my kind is going the way of the dinosaur. Peace has it's place. I'm sure it's a fine thing. We want it when we lack it.
    But nothing about human nature is peaceful even when it's not exactly violent. Look at these threads, they are mental battles a lot of the time. People even get hurt sometimes, even if they do not bleed.
    We go skydiving, not just challenging people or animals, but death itself. Humans are not peaceful. Sure, we like it sometimes. But then we get bored, or pissed off or want something that someone else has.

    In order to create a society (globally, no wars) of peace, even if not perfectly absolute, we would need to exert so much oppressive force and control over everyone's lives, they would hate the concept of peace and violently rebel.

    See, it's a bit like the seatbelt law. We can always justify laws. So, we make this law that people have to wear a seatbelt in a car. And some will say, "Wait, isn't that a personal choice?"
    But we justify the law by saying, "If you're injured or killed, it costs other people money. You affect their lives, too."
    But there isn't hardly anything we do that someone cannot say affects their lives. Even if it's done in the closed and private space of your own home, they can claim it creates a mental state for you that they find objectionable.
    Many laws are based on us thinking that what others do is "wrong" and we justify these laws by saying, "But you want to do what's wrong" should any one object to the existence of the law.
    Yet, that really isn't the case. The case is that enough laws and control makes a person feel caged, like an animal confined in a zoo. You get anxious, and you pace, metaphorically speaking. It gets to where you even may want to do that wrong thing, even if you wouldn't have been so inclined if not one had told you that you couldn't- just to spite 'em.
    Freedom is not a want, it is a psychological need.
    If you want a very strong measure of peace, you will need to sacrifice a lot of freedom to get it. And that's sacrificing a need. It just doesn't work.

    Yes, peace is a fine thing. We like it, most of the time. It's a nice ideal to want. But in the end, it is not a human need.
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    Enforced piece is a short term solution. Not even a solution, but it has been useful after hostilities have ceased. People will tolerate it under those conditions, but not for long. Longer term solutions take longer, but it can be done. We are as peaceful as we are "Warful" It's a matter of which you feed the most. Not by enforcing, but by selectively favoring the kind of conditions within which peace can take place. It may not be apparent, but we have already gone quite a long way from the outright butchery of the middle ages and before. There is a larger percentage of the worlds population living in peace today than ever before.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Enforced piece is a short term solution. Not even a solution, but it has been useful after hostilities have ceased. People will tolerate it under those conditions, but not for long. Longer term solutions take longer, but it can be done. We are as peaceful as we are "Warful" It's a matter of which you feed the most. Not by enforcing, but by selectively favoring the kind of conditions within which peace can take place. It may not be apparent, but we have already gone quite a long way from the outright butchery of the middle ages and before. There is a larger percentage of the worlds population living in peace today than ever before.
    I hear this said a lot, but if you examine history (At least the bits best recorded) we find long periods of peaceful living and a lack of barbarianism through out history, some periods spanning hundreds of years, including in ancient Rome- Until a particularly bloodthirsty emperor took the helm...
    Thing is, it's always had a lot of variance and the optimistic, "We're growing and learning" may not hold sway (Even though I've made the same argument) in he centuries to come. We may well swing back around to barbaric activity in the future.
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    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.

    Jimi Hendrix
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    What's it going to take? Is it even possible for humans to live in peace?
    Hi Zin! Honestly: You have raised the most important question so far raised in this forum!

    We simply must ACT NOW!

    May I suggest we begin by improving ourselves?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Seems as if attaining peace is damn near impossible without deploying a weapon of some major hurt. If that's the case then we are on our way to the peaceful planet this side of the Milky Way. For Christ sake, is there no other options?
    It's our nature. Yet, you make it sound like it's all negative. Not necessarily.
    Consider, what if the Milky Way Galaxy is host to many planets, not even far away, with technologically advanced alien beings- that are violent.

    We better fit in or get devoured.

    Honestly, I believe humanity should hold off on altering ourselves until we know what kind of neighborhood we live in.

    So let's hurry up and build faster ships so we can outrun them and remain at peace. They may blow themselves up while we are breeding like crazy, and populating the galaxy.
    I am really sorry my friend...but...
    Theres nowhere to run to!
    Either we make our stand where we are or we are gone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    It would require a complete re-working of the human brain.
    ..., the human brain is not the problem, human society, IS the problem,

    ...Sure we might not like war, but we find "normal" most of the social/organizational legacies that make war a reality.

    ...the minority uses Money, Hierarchy and Control of Information to whip the population into wanting war
    You make sense so far...What will you add?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Enforced piece is a short term solution. Not even a solution, but it has been useful after hostilities have ceased. People will tolerate it under those conditions, but not for long. Longer term solutions take longer, but it can be done. We are as peaceful as we are "Warful" It's a matter of which you feed the most. Not by enforcing, but by selectively favoring the kind of conditions within which peace can take place. It may not be apparent, but we have already gone quite a long way from the outright butchery of the middle ages and before. There is a larger percentage of the worlds population living in peace today than ever before.
    I hear this said a lot, but if you examine history (At least the bits best recorded) we find long periods of peaceful living and a lack of barbarianism through out history, some periods spanning hundreds of years, including in ancient Rome- Until a particularly bloodthirsty emperor took the helm...
    Thing is, it's always had a lot of variance and the optimistic, "We're growing and learning" may not hold sway (Even though I've made the same argument) in he centuries to come. We may well swing back around to barbaric activity in the future.
    What happens in the centuries to come will depend on what we do today. It's really a trial and error game which is why it takes so long. That is how nature designs itself, by reinforcing what works, and discarding what does not. Whatever we do, if we grow not to like it, we will stop doing it. Whenever conditions arise that makes war a more attractive option, peace will be compromised. After all, we are humans, and we can do whatever pleases us. Maybe war is just another way of discarding a bad idea that refuses to go away on its own.
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    when the last "universal soldier" is dead and forgotten, maybe the mindset will change?
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    "universal soldier"??
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    I don't think I read it on this forum but I saw an article the other day that stated the fist is a product of evolution. The use of the fist in hand to hand combat by our ancestors proved to be more effective than grappling. There is more force delivered and the fingers are protected. I guess it's an example of how violence has helped shaped human evolution. I wonder if peace has to be an evolved trait yet I can't imagine what kind of change could be so favorable as to make that happen.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    "universal soldier"??


    a song written by buffy saint marie, covered by donavan, etc... ...

    Donovan - Universal Soldier - YouTube

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYEsF...tokQH14rPOprNl



    He’s 5 foot 2 and he’s 6 feet 4
    He fights with missiles and with spears
    He’s all of 31 and he’s only 17.
    He’s been a soldier for a thousand years

    He’s a catholic, a Hindu, an atheist, a Jain
    A Buddhist, and a Baptist and Jew.
    And he knows he shouldn’t kill
    And he knows he always will kill
    You’ll for me my friend and me for you

    And He’s fighting for Canada.
    He’s fighting for France.
    He’s fighting for the USA.
    And he’s fighting for the Russians.
    And he’s fighting for Japan
    And he thinks we’ll put an end to war this way.

    And He’s fighting for democracy,
    He’s fighting for the reds
    He says it’s for the peace of all.
    He’s the one, who must decide,
    who’s to live and who’s to die.
    And he never sees the writing on the wall.

    But without him,
    how would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
    Without him Caesar would have stood alone
    He’s the one who gives his body
    as a weapon of the war.
    And without him all this killing can’t go on

    He’s the universal soldier
    And he really is the blame
    His orders comes from
    far away no more.

    They come from him.
    And you and me.
    And brothers can’t you see.
    This is not the way we put an end to war
    (psst---long ago and far away, I was one)
    maybe,
    just maybe I learned to be different?
    .................
    reminds me of a friend(from veterans group therapy)-classic neurotic-excellent muscle tonus-----who intimidated the bar owner into putting this song on the jukebox, and played it everytime we met at the bar after group
    :
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25zrsqFYUCs

    ............................
    and, now, we got lunitics shooting up grade schools
    ................
    a poem from nam
    "love the system and fight the war
    but don't ask what yer fighting for
    lest you fight the system and hate the war"

    (but, I'm much better now)
    Last edited by sculptor; December 30th, 2012 at 11:14 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I don't think I read it on this forum but I saw an article the other day that stated the fist is a product of evolution. The use of the fist in hand to hand combat by our ancestors proved to be more effective than grappling. There is more force delivered and the fingers are protected. I guess it's an example of how violence has helped shaped human evolution. I wonder if peace has to be an evolved trait yet I can't imagine what kind of change could be so favorable as to make that happen.
    It's not easy to evolve peace when there are things out there that think you're filet mignon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    It's not easy to evolve peace when there are things out there that think you're filet mignon.
    How many people, including myself, enjoy a vacation on a nice quiet lake? Sitting out there in my boat I take it easy while just below the water's surface theres a war taking place, a violent struggle for survival for all the submarine inhabitants. Doesn't take much to see the similarity between what's below and what's above the waterline. Yet it's probably the closest I'll ever get to peace in my lifetime.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    When Jehovas Witnesses used to visit my house when I was a kid they would ask that question - "Do you think there will ever be world peace?" And as a 10 years old I would tell that "Certainly not". The looks they gave me...

    I also resorted to telling them I was a Wiccan and they didn't even know what it was. Not that I am a Wiccan. They should have knows, though. They burned enough of them.
    It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.
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    "All one", I want to say.

    If only we could eliminate the us-and-them mentality, then the comparisons and the jealousies and the wantings would end because we would automatically share because we are "all one". We must put an end, if only slowly and painfully, to these things to become all one. The Shoes of the Fisherman, a 1963 book and a 1968 movie, looks like a faith-oriented movie, but it soon becomes political, and it ends on the topic before us. I have difficulties spending days reading fiction, so I suggest watching the 2½-hour movie. In answer to zinj's overall question of "how" to accomplish peace, I think the best answer I can give, and as the movie seems to suggest, is that we must obviously trust in something that's not obvious or real (yet!).

    And isn't that what faith, religious or otherwise, is all about.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
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    As John Lennon wrote about peace......

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...jKM70_D7vfNsEg
    When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
    Jimi Hendrix
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I don't think I read it on this forum but I saw an article the other day that stated the fist is a product of evolution. The use of the fist in hand to hand combat by our ancestors proved to be more effective than grappling. There is more force delivered and the fingers are protected. I guess it's an example of how violence has helped shaped human evolution. I wonder if peace has to be an evolved trait yet I can't imagine what kind of change could be so favorable as to make that happen.
    Do you remember 2001: A Space Odyssey? The film started with a couple tribes of proto-humans that would often confront each other and make noises and engage in some ineffectual battles in which no one was really hurt and one side never really gained an advantage over the other.

    That is, until one day one of the proto-humans picked up a stick and bashed in the skull of one of members of the rival tribe. This turned their daily confrontration into a rout and as the victorious proto-humans were celebrating they threw the stick into the air. The camera followed the stick as it flew though the air and the stick was transformed into a space station.

    The implication was clear. Violence is a basic part of our nature. Our first tools were almost certainly tools of violence and it was this that started us on the path to the stars.

    Taking the capacity for violence from us would create a species we'd hardly recognize as human, IMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by madanthonywayne View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I don't think I read it on this forum but I saw an article the other day that stated the fist is a product of evolution. The use of the fist in hand to hand combat by our ancestors proved to be more effective than grappling. There is more force delivered and the fingers are protected. I guess it's an example of how violence has helped shaped human evolution. I wonder if peace has to be an evolved trait yet I can't imagine what kind of change could be so favorable as to make that happen.
    Do you remember 2001: A Space Odyssey? The film started with a couple tribes of proto-humans that would often confront each other and make noises and engage in some ineffectual battles in which no one was really hurt and one side never really gained an advantage over the other.

    That is, until one day one of the proto-humans picked up a stick and bashed in the skull of one of members of the rival tribe. This turned their daily confrontration into a rout and as the victorious proto-humans were celebrating they threw the stick into the air. The camera followed the stick as it flew though the air and the stick was transformed into a space station.

    The implication was clear. Violence is a basic part of our nature. Our first tools were almost certainly tools of violence and it was this that started us on the path to the stars.

    Taking the capacity for violence from us would create a species we'd hardly recognize as human, IMO.
    ahem:
    No,
    I disagree
    For the most part, people would just as soon not be violent. There are exceptions, but I think them a minority.

    If you want to go with archaeological evidence, less then 5 percent of the bones show any violence associated with their deaths.
    There are exceptions, often grouped together.

    Violence is/was a part of national governments much more than of the people.
    (not meaning to get into the "new world order" discussion)
    but
    It just may take one service government for one peoples of the world.
    one language drawn from a pidginization of all languages?
    I'm not a polyglot, but the uncle who raised me was, and after one of his strokes, he began to mix words from different languages in the same communication. I was amazed at the beauty of it---some anamanna poetica, some just a really appropriate word for the item or action.
    Once I caught on, It was as easy to communicate as it had been before the stroke--(knowing the man, and knowing what we normally did together probably helped)-----a few months later, he recovered, and we discussed the use of the words from different languages, during which, he shared many more (other language) words that better expressed the item or action............
    eg: (My mother's last husband was german, and when he said "roust" you'd be 1/2 way out of the chair before the word ended)
    perhaps
    This new communication devise can unite more and more like minded in it's technological miracle.
    perhaps
    We are the new world order
    Without even intending it?
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    No, humans have shown a great deal of violence, not just in the fossil record (Finding of graves of warring tribes) but in history. The point is that the violence is held to a degree and peace is held to a degree.
    For example, sparring native american tribes had settled confrontations over land and resources with a form of LaCrosse, rather than war.

    But even in modern society, we control our natural impulses to slug people. Seriously- a dude disses your girl and your first thought isn't to take him out to coffee to chat about his attitude. It is to cave his face in.
    You then opt not to do so, more often than not, because you feel it may not be worth it or because our society is a meddling controlling prick that tells us what not to do and what to do. The impulse remains and what follows is simply the choice of whether to act on it or not.
    We assert dominance in the same fashion. We are over-all "peaceful" in that by asserting dominance, others may cower. If they do not cower, you may cower and then they assert their dominance. If neither cowers, they fight.
    It is our nature.
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    Neverfly:
    You do realize that you are a tad more pugnacious than average?
    Perhaps your perspective is a tad off center?
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    Quote Originally Posted by madanthonywayne View Post
    Do you remember 2001: A Space Odyssey? The film started with a couple tribes of proto-humans that would often confront each other and make noises and engage in some ineffectual battles in which no one was really hurt and one side never really gained an advantage over the other.

    That is, until one day one of the proto-humans picked up a stick and bashed in the skull of one of members of the rival tribe. This turned their daily confrontration into a rout and as the victorious proto-humans were celebrating they threw the stick into the air. The camera followed the stick as it flew though the air and the stick was transformed into a space station.

    The implication was clear. Violence is a basic part of our nature. Our first tools were almost certainly tools of violence and it was this that started us on the path to the stars.

    Taking the capacity for violence from us would create a species we'd hardly recognize as human, IMO.
    Remember? Hell, that was my favorite part of the whole movie. A lot of people didn't get the significance of that scene, Actually if I recall, the rival tribe leader first smashed in a dry skull and then the lightbulb went on. Great stuff.
    All that belongs to human understanding, in this deep ignorance and obscurity, is to be skeptical, or at least cautious; and not to admit of any hypothesis, whatsoever; much less, of any which is supported by no appearance of probability...Hume
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Neverfly:
    You do realize that you are a tad more pugnacious than average?
    Perhaps your perspective is a tad off center?
    I do not know what the average is. I suspect you also do not know what the average aggression level is.
    I agree that my perspective may lean toward what I understand as an individual; however, I've encountered enough people in my lifetime to know that I am certainly not alone. Looking at the statistics, it's quite clear that standard animal/mammal behavior is the norm among humans.
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    perspective matters

    mine's different
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    perspective matters

    mine's different
    Not much. Facts are facts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    No, humans have shown a great deal of violence, not just in the fossil record (Finding of graves of warring tribes) but in history. The point is that the violence is held to a degree and peace is held to a degree.
    For example, sparring native american tribes had settled confrontations over land and resources with a form of LaCrosse, rather than war.

    But even in modern society, we control our natural impulses to slug people. Seriously- a dude disses your girl and your first thought isn't to take him out to coffee to chat about his attitude. It is to cave his face in.
    You then opt not to do so, more often than not, because you feel it may not be worth it or because our society is a meddling controlling prick that tells us what not to do and what to do. The impulse remains and what follows is simply the choice of whether to act on it or not.
    We assert dominance in the same fashion. We are over-all "peaceful" in that by asserting dominance, others may cower. If they do not cower, you may cower and then they assert their dominance. If neither cowers, they fight.
    It is our nature.
    The trick is to find something that you can both cower to. That way you don't have to do it to each other. That's the beginning of cooperation.
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    Some things that come to mind while reading this thread:

    Human nature.
    Casual observation should tell you that given a choice, people will prefer avoidance over confrontation. The reason you may not see it happening so much is because the trouble maker will draw attention, while avoidance by definition is subtle and unnoticeable. People will tend to distance themselves from what is potentially hurtful. Just like a lot of other life on this planet. The notion that we are by nature an aggressive species may not be true.

    Total global love.
    Love has a limited reach. It may feel like you could encompass the whole world, but it does not mean that you actually do. Someone out there might resent your love. It works better when you keep it close to home.

    Re engineering our species. You don't have to go far. Frontal lobotomies work. Makes people docile.

    The militaristic approach to peace
    is interesting. Deterrence. If you are strong enough, no one will dare attack you. This keeps you at peace while the rest of the world is fighting. Then there is mutual deterrence, or what is sometimes called, maintaining a balance of power. In a perverse way, this actually works, as in the cold war. Maintaining peace through a sustained state of fear.

    Trade, an equitable exchange of resources. This works. It has been one of the best vehicles for peaceful coexistence throughout history. Even among groups who otherwise hate each other.
    Economic power; competitive, aggressive, and exploitative as power is, has been a viable substitute for military power. How wisely we use it is yet to be seen. It would be a shame if such a good idea collapses because of poor management, and we're back to shooting each other.

    Religion. As far as it's applicability to peace? Depends on the teaching. Tibet was a warrior culture before Buddhism came. Of course it did not do them any good against the Chinese, but it lasted for quite a while. Isolation, and the unwillingness to go out looking for trouble helped.

    The outside invader. We are talking about world peace here. Infighting, and a division among ranks makes anyone an easy prey.The idea that as long as we practice killing each other, we are somehow going to be better fit to kill the invader when and if it comes is a questionable defense strategy.

    The alien . These are anthropomorphic projections from our own fantasies.
    There is probably plenty of life out there, just like there is here. The most immediate threat we are likely to encounter is diseases for which we have no immunity. We are far more likely to be decimated by a microorganism than a space faring battle fleet.

    Mental telepathy.
    If you don't like someone being in your face. How would it be if they were in your mind? Nature was kind to hide that from us.
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    It's already happening, with dramatic decreases in deaths from war and individual violence in most nations over the past century.

    It happened for a variety of reasons, including linked economies and national self interest in preserving the peace, increasing seperations of religious and other idiological bents from poliitical power, influence of media which bring the look of the horrors of war into people living rooms or onto their computers, spread of representative governments, better mental health care, organized international efforts to punish bad actors .....
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    really optomistic of you Lynx
    and
    I hope yer rite
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    It's already happening, with dramatic decreases in deaths from war and individual violence in most nations over the past century.

    It happened for a variety of reasons, including linked economies and national self interest in preserving the peace, increasing seperations of religious and other idiological bents from poliitical power, influence of media which bring the look of the horrors of war into people living rooms or onto their computers, spread of representative governments, better mental health care, organized international efforts to punish bad actors .....
    Agreed. Not sure about the media. Would have to see some numbers. That one could work both ways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sculptor View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by madanthonywayne View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I don't think I read it on this forum but I saw an article the other day that stated the fist is a product of evolution. The use of the fist in hand to hand combat by our ancestors proved to be more effective than grappling. There is more force delivered and the fingers are protected. I guess it's an example of how violence has helped shaped human evolution. I wonder if peace has to be an evolved trait yet I can't imagine what kind of change could be so favorable as to make that happen.
    Do you remember 2001: A Space Odyssey? The film started with a couple tribes of proto-humans that would often confront each other and make noises and engage in some ineffectual battles in which no one was really hurt and one side never really gained an advantage over the other.

    That is, until one day one of the proto-humans picked up a stick and bashed in the skull of one of members of the rival tribe. This turned their daily confrontration into a rout and as the victorious proto-humans were celebrating they threw the stick into the air. The camera followed the stick as it flew though the air and the stick was transformed into a space station.

    The implication was clear. Violence is a basic part of our nature. Our first tools were almost certainly tools of violence and it was this that started us on the path to the stars.

    Taking the capacity for violence from us would create a species we'd hardly recognize as human, IMO.
    ahem:
    No,
    I disagree
    For the most part, people would just as soon not be violent. There are exceptions, but I think them a minority.

    If you want to go with archaeological evidence, less then 5 percent of the bones show any violence associated with their deaths.
    There are exceptions, often grouped together.

    Violence is/was a part of national governments much more than of the people.
    (not meaning to get into the "new world order" discussion)
    but
    It just may take one service government for one peoples of the world.
    one language drawn from a pidginization of all languages?
    I'm not a polyglot, but the uncle who raised me was, and after one of his strokes, he began to mix words from different languages in the same communication. I was amazed at the beauty of it---some anamanna poetica, some just a really appropriate word for the item or action.
    Once I caught on, It was as easy to communicate as it had been before the stroke--(knowing the man, and knowing what we normally did together probably helped)-----a few months later, he recovered, and we discussed the use of the words from different languages, during which, he shared many more (other language) words that better expressed the item or action............
    eg: (My mother's last husband was german, and when he said "roust" you'd be 1/2 way out of the chair before the word ended)
    perhaps
    This new communication devise can unite more and more like minded in it's technological miracle.
    perhaps
    We are the new world order
    Without even intending it?
    Communication is probably the key...
    Its difficult to improve oneself in isolation.
    So how do we improve ourselves in communication?

    By winning arguments?

    sigurdV

    Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    What's it going to take? Is it even possible for humans to live in peace?



    Hi Zin! Honestly: You have raised the most important question so far raised in this forum!

    We simply must ACT NOW!

    http://www.thescienceforum.com/philosophy/32533-science-semantics-new-post.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Seems as if attaining peace is damn near impossible without deploying a weapon of some major hurt. If that's the case then we are on our way to being the most peaceful planet this side of the Milky Way. For Christ sake, is there no other options?
    Find a way to expose any lie being told by anyone at any time. That might be a very tough job to get done, but shouldn't be impossible with some government sponsored goals.

    The current genneration of adults would find life in the no lie lane to be difficult to say the least. But the following generations would adapt to it while growing up with it.

    Just think about it for awhile. If you could never conceal your crimes, you aren't going to commit them in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Seems as if attaining peace is damn near impossible without deploying a weapon of some major hurt. If that's the case then we are on our way to being the most peaceful planet this side of the Milky Way. For Christ sake, is there no other options?
    Find a way to expose any lie being told by anyone at any time. That might be a very tough job to get done, but shouldn't be impossible with some government sponsored goals.

    The current genneration of adults would find life in the no lie lane to be difficult to say the least. But the following generations would adapt to it while growing up with it.

    Just think about it for awhile. If you could never conceal your crimes, you aren't going to commit them in the first place.
    So you dont believe there are unconscious forces to consider?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Seems as if attaining peace is damn near impossible without deploying a weapon of some major hurt. If that's the case then we are on our way to being the most peaceful planet this side of the Milky Way. For Christ sake, is there no other options?
    Find a way to expose any lie being told by anyone at any time. That might be a very tough job to get done, but shouldn't be impossible with some government sponsored goals.

    The current generation of adults would find life in the no lie lane to be difficult to say the least. But the following generations would adapt to it while growing up with it.

    Just think about it for awhile. If you could never conceal your crimes, you aren't going to commit them in the first place.
    So you don't believe there are unconscious forces to consider?
    I believe whatever passes for unconscious forces is also subject to the environment one is raised in. Of course there are going to be some mental problems that no amount of environmental upbringing will overcome. But hopefully we can keep the mental cases out of any of the world governments. But I would really like a world where politicians can't conceal lies or deception of any kind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Seems as if attaining peace is damn near impossible without deploying a weapon of some major hurt. If that's the case then we are on our way to being the most peaceful planet this side of the Milky Way. For Christ sake, is there no other options?
    Find a way to expose any lie being told by anyone at any time. That might be a very tough job to get done, but shouldn't be impossible with some government sponsored goals.

    The current generation of adults would find life in the no lie lane to be difficult to say the least. But the following generations would adapt to it while growing up with it.

    Just think about it for awhile. If you could never conceal your crimes, you aren't going to commit them in the first place.
    So you don't believe there are unconscious forces to consider?
    I believe whatever passes for unconscious forces is also subject to the environment one is raised in. Of course there are going to be some mental problems that no amount of environmental upbringing will overcome. But hopefully we can keep the mental cases out of any of the world governments. But I would really like a world where politicians can't conceal lies or deception of any kind.
    Many governments are working on better transparency. But to consider your proposal. How do you deal with the subtleties between a truth and a lie, or an innocent lie like flattery. The difficulty would be similar to that filtering the internet for undesirable content. This next generation you speak of would not be able to articulate the truth for fear of being misconstrued as a lie. Politicians already do enough of that as is.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Many governments are working on better transparency. But to consider your proposal. How do you deal with the subtleties between a truth and a lie, or an innocent lie like flattery. The difficulty would be similar to that filtering the internet for undesirable content. This next generation you speak of would not be able to articulate the truth for fear of being misconstrued as a lie. Politicians already do enough of that as is.
    A deception is a deception even the little white lie to save someones feelings. I can only say that it would be a new world for children to grow up in and I personally think the rewards would far out weigh any possible problems with it. As to how it could be done, I do not know at this time but would like finding out. I know it would take lots of funding and support over time. As to how to gage the degree of the lie, maybe a ring that changes color with the degree of the lie. Something like a mood ring but only more so.

    Can you picture how court cases would go during a trial if your lies were exposed for all to see as they happened? Or the same for a politician addressing the public on a national TV news program?
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    If I had to hazard a guess as to how it could be done. I'd say faster more intelligent processing and some very complex programming. In the not to distant future the main processing environment will be in the cloud, which would allow the sensors in contact with a person to be very small with the ability to communicate with the cloud and receive feedback.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    It's already happening, with dramatic decreases in deaths from war and individual violence in most nations over the past century.

    It happened for a variety of reasons, including linked economies and national self interest in preserving the peace, increasing seperations of religious and other idiological bents from poliitical power, influence of media which bring the look of the horrors of war into people living rooms or onto their computers, spread of representative governments, better mental health care, organized international efforts to punish bad actors .....
    Agreed. Not sure about the media. Would have to see some numbers. That one could work both ways.
    Not sure which numbers you'd like, here's one which shows the decline in battle deaths.


    Here's the original article, which shows the references and other trends for the better in recent decades:
    http://www.adamsmith.org/research/ar...bal-capitalism
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    It's already happening, with dramatic decreases in deaths from war and individual violence in most nations over the past century.

    It happened for a variety of reasons, including linked economies and national self interest in preserving the peace, increasing seperations of religious and other idiological bents from poliitical power, influence of media which bring the look of the horrors of war into people living rooms or onto their computers, spread of representative governments, better mental health care, organized international efforts to punish bad actors .....
    Agreed. Not sure about the media. Would have to see some numbers. That one could work both ways.
    Not sure which numbers you'd like, here's one which shows the decline in battle deaths.


    Here's the original article, which shows the references and other trends for the better in recent decades:
    The triumph of global capitalism | Adam Smith Institute
    What I meant by "numbers" was really to say evidence or a convincing argument, but numbers will do.
    The only part I am questioning is how much of the improvement can be directly attributed to the media. I remember that picture of the flag draped coffins that had all the censors upset. But the media as a whole also has the potential to incite. Is why I said it could cut both ways. I don't have an opinion, would like to know more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by icewendigo View Post
    As Hermann Göring pointed out, most people dont want War (thank god for small favors), so usually a minority (that are often willing to fight to the last drop of other peoples blood) pulls the strings to catapult wars. The Minority, typically uses a cocktail of Money, Hierarchy, Control of Information to pull the strings that lead to war, usually power (control/money/etc) is an objective and the minority uses Money, Hierarchy and Control of Information (each of which can be mutually leveraged to obtain more influence) to whip the population into wanting war and supporting it and even volunteering to sacrifice themselves (or otherwise not opposing it efficiently). (I would add that a holistic view also missing, as opposed to the individualistic world view that is propagated by our society, but its a secondary aspect).
    I don't really believe that the majority of people don't want war. At least not exactly. The majority of people want to dominate over other people. It is unfortunate, but it is the truth. Naturally they would like to achieve this without fighting, but........ how likely could you ever achieve it without fighting?

    Peace will arrive when people give up the need to do this, but of course there will always be one requirement that we put on one another: the requirement not to attempt to dominate others. It's a borderline oxymoron. We need to use force to prevent others from using force to get their way.

    Some have proposed to simply give all military power to one entity, like a government, or a church, or whatever else have you. Trouble is the people who make up that entity decide they want to dominate, and use the entity as a vehicle to achieve domination over other human beings. So... then we try to create multiple entities in order to have checks and balances. And then those entities fight one another and we're back where we started....
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    There would be PEACE if individual biases are questioned and individual experiences are improved in a positive way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29081973 View Post
    There would be PEACE if individual biases are questioned and individual experiences are improved in a positive way.
    Define: Positive.
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    I would say positive to be reduction in individual suffering and protection of life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by winterstl View Post
    I would say positive to be reduction in individual suffering and protection of life.
    Which individuals and which life?
    For example, deer hunting helps alleviate over population and feeding issues- a case where a few deaths has a positive influence on the whole.

    In the case of humans, we have a rather extreme bias to ourselves, to the exclusion of other lifeforms, in general.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by winterstl View Post
    I would say positive to be reduction in individual suffering and protection of life.
    Which individuals and which life?
    For example, deer hunting helps alleviate over population and feeding issues- a case where a few deaths has a positive influence on the whole.

    In the case of humans, we have a rather extreme bias to ourselves, to the exclusion of other lifeforms, in general.
    Sounds like your suggesting the human population should be culled. It would help with the issue this topic is addressing. However humans are incapable of doing it. Where are those benevolent aliens when you need them?
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    It's "unthinkable" to consider it, right? We do it to others... yet, we don't even allow human euthanasia with humans.
    When you watch movies, there's the "Good guy" or "hero" and the "bad guy- the evil horrible, no good very bad person." Talk about warped perspectives... In actuality, across the globe, the humans are by far, the "bad guy." We practically make it an art form.
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    Quote Originally Posted by arKane View Post
    I believe whatever passes for unconscious forces is also subject to the environment one is raised in. Of course there are going to be some mental problems that no amount of environmental upbringing will overcome. But hopefully we can keep the mental cases out of any of the world governments. But I would really like a world where politicians can't conceal lies or deception of any kind.
    Yes It would be cool having my own "truth gun" to point at the lying politician... no question about that.
    Also my choice of term was not good. I rather meant "Sub Conscious" forces... as the dreams we all experience.
    And "the voices" some of us are exposed to. I think subconscious is seriously underestimated...
    I would perhaps even go as far as believing it is the real master of our minds. Indirectly controlling us. We dont question our motives for actions much... are they really our own or do we just follow our impulses however they are generated? Maybe your "gun" will tell us more about ourselves than we really want to know...
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    Quote Originally Posted by parag29081973 View Post
    There would be PEACE if individual biases are questioned and individual experiences are improved in a positive way.
    I agree but the individual will not improve in isolation. It is in communication the possibility of improvement exists. But look around you in here...
    Has anyone ever got wiser as a result of communication? What is wrong with us really?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29081973 View Post
    There would be PEACE if individual biases are questioned and individual experiences are improved in a positive way.
    I agree but the individual will not improve in isolation. It is in communication the possibility of improvement exists. But look around you in here...
    Has anyone ever got wiser as a result of communication? What is wrong with us really?
    It is not communication. It is cooperation. Communication alone will only give you more insight in your opponents weaknesses, and he in yours.
    Last edited by Daedalus; January 3rd, 2013 at 06:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29081973 View Post
    There would be PEACE if individual biases are questioned and individual experiences are improved in a positive way.
    I agree but the individual will not improve in isolation. It is in communication the possibility of improvement exists. But look around you in here...
    Has anyone ever got wiser as a result of communication? What is wrong with us really?
    It is not communication. It is cooperation. Communication alone will only give you more insight in your opponents weaknesses, and he in yours.
    Heh! I dont think we use the words in exactly the same way. How do you define communication? (successful as unsuccessful) Does it presuppose cooperation? Can we get wiser by cooperation or is cooperation already the sign of the wise?
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    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29081973 View Post
    There would be PEACE if individual biases are questioned and individual experiences are improved in a positive way.
    I agree but the individual will not improve in isolation. It is in communication the possibility of improvement exists. But look around you in here...
    Has anyone ever got wiser as a result of communication? What is wrong with us really?
    It is not communication. It is cooperation. Communication alone will only give you more insight in your opponents weaknesses, and he in yours.
    Heh! I dont think we use the words in exactly the same way. How do you define communication? (successful as unsuccessful) Does it presuppose cooperation? Can we get wiser by cooperation or is cooperation already the sign of the wise?
    Communication is the exchange of information. Cooperation is the common or shared purpose to which that information is applied.

    Effective communication presupposes some cooperation. For example a common understanding of how language is used.
    A failure to cooperate can sometimes be attributed to miscommunication. Where what was intended to be said, did not translate properly into what was actually said.

    Usually the failure or unwillingness to cooperate is not due to bad communications. We understand very well what the other is saying, we simply disagree with them. Any further communication just bolsters the argument. We have all seen this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sigurdV View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by parag29081973 View Post
    There would be PEACE if individual biases are questioned and individual experiences are improved in a positive way.
    I agree but the individual will not improve in isolation. It is in communication the possibility of improvement exists. But look around you in here...
    Has anyone ever got wiser as a result of communication? What is wrong with us really?
    It is not communication. It is cooperation. Communication alone will only give you more insight in your opponents weaknesses, and he in yours.
    Heh! I dont think we use the words in exactly the same way. How do you define communication? (successful as unsuccessful) Does it presuppose cooperation? Can we get wiser by cooperation or is cooperation already the sign of the wise?
    Communication is the exchange of information. Cooperation is the common or shared purpose to which that information is applied.

    Effective communication presupposes some cooperation. For example a common understanding of how language is used.
    A failure to cooperate can sometimes be attributed to miscommunication. Where what was intended to be said, did not translate properly into what was actually said.?
    I usually start with the following definition:
    Successful communication presupposes a shared media a shared logic and a shared manner.
    Are we far from each other? Is our communication successful? I think I mean Cooperative when I say Successful.
    Any objection/comment?
    Quote Originally Posted by Daedalus View Post
    Usually the failure or unwillingness to cooperate is not due to bad communications. We understand very well what the other is saying, we simply disagree with them. Any further communication just bolsters the argument. We have all seen this.
    "Simply disagree" That is an inadequate way of describing dishonourable communication!
    I think one should begin checking examples. Lets go outside this forum:

    sigurdV,
    Eclogite has just posted a reply to a topic that you have subscribed to titled "The Theory Of Life?".
    The topic can be found here:
    http://scienceforums.com/index.php?showtopic=27130&view=getnewpost

    Post Scriptum: Is the theory of Evil the theory of Unsuccessful Communication?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    It's "unthinkable" to consider it, right? We do it to others... yet, we don't even allow human euthanasia with humans.
    When you watch movies, there's the "Good guy" or "hero" and the "bad guy- the evil horrible, no good very bad person." Talk about warped perspectives... In actuality, across the globe, the humans are by far, the "bad guy." We practically make it an art form.
    Humans are the only species currently with the technological power to reduce the suffering of all species on the planet if we want to. All other species are subject to the reality of evolution and survival of the fittest, they cannot escape the suffering caused by climate change (natural or human induced), overpopulation, predation etc. It would require immense resources, but we could foresee a possible future where we monitor all living animals and ensure they are allowed to live "happy" and "fullfilling" lives. By this I mean living until old age, not suffering from diseases or predation. Of course it would get really complicated because you would have to replace all prey by mechanical, non-living replicas for predators to "chase" and eat.
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    You know, I need a bit of suffering, sometimes. I need a bit of pain. Risks. Even the lethal ones. I don't know about you, but there's more to being alive than existing. You need quality of life. I certainly wouldn't want it enforced on me to just exist nor would I enforce it on others.

    Perhaps some people like the idea of a "happy" life, but I don't. I prefer a life that's a mix, a life that has what I evolved to understand. A life that has danger and risks and thrills and pain along with the joy and fulfillment and peace.
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    I agree with you Neverfly that a bit of pain, suffering, and challenge has purpose in our lives. However I find it that certain groups of people, such as those in poverty-stricken lands and children with degenerative, life-impairing diseases deserve some "help" to allow them to face life with a higher level of opportunity. I'm not suggesting to completely eliminate all forms of suffering, i'm suggesting a gradual elimination of the most debilitating sources of it starting with the people who appear to be suffering the most. As on the question of enforcing it upon them or not, I believe they should have the opportunity to deny help provided that we are always around in case they change their mind. Asking animals where or not they would like our help would prove more difficult. Maybe we must take it upon our responsibility of power to assume the best for them.
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    I would like to see involuntary suffering replaced with a voluntary alternative. People need adventure. If you choose to go out adventuring you should get to experience all the highs and lows. If you don't choose it, then maybe you should be allowed to grow old and fat on your couch watching television.

    The trouble is when people try to find adventure by entering into conflict with other people who don't want to be in a conflict. For some people, the ultimate challenge is defeating another intelligent human being. It's just too bad they don't always find and pick their fights with other people who want the same thing.
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    The closest we have seem to have gotten to it is through the endurance of foreign trades and a moving economy. Total peace is far unlikely to ever be achieved with the natural attributes of belligerent and selfishly altruistic. It's hard to embrace peace though unless you've faced a fair balance of pain.
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    The closest we have seem to have gotten to it is through the endurance of foreign trades and a moving economy.  Total peace is far unlikely to ever be achieved with the natural attributes of belligerent and selfishly altruistic. It's hard to embrace peace though unless you've faced a fair balance of pain.
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    When conflicting viewpoints cease to exist, I would say peace is nearly impossible. Though it may occur within a few thousand years, unless substantial circumstances intervene "nuclear holocaust".
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    It would be kind of dull if everyone had the same opinion about everything, and if everyone civily agreed to disagree, the art of debate would cease to exist. Then the awakenings of new revolutions and ideas may never emerge because everyone is so happy with the way things are, unless this is what everyone had in mind about peace? Forget it, this hostile world we live in is about as close 'heaven' as we'll get.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky View Post
    It would be kind of dull if everyone had the same opinion about everything, and if everyone civily agreed to disagree, the art of debate would cease to exist. Then the awakenings of new revolutions and ideas may never emerge because everyone is so happy with the way things are, unless this is what everyone had in mind about peace? Forget it, this hostile world we live in is about as close 'heaven' as we'll get.
    I was speaking of total peace, no arguments, no conflict. It would in fact be a boring world, and I would accept the world of today much more readily.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shlunka View Post
    I was speaking of total peace, no arguments, no conflict. It would in fact be a boring world, and I would accept the world of today much more readily.
    I'd love to be bored exploring the marvels of the world in places where I didn't have to worry about being shot or pissed on because of my race, religion, politics, etc. If I can walk with impunity anywhere I go then you can bore the shit out of me. You won't find me breaking the boredom by picking up a weapon and blasting someone because I don't like him or that I just lost an argument to him. Bore me all you want, it's a small price for peace if that's all it's going to cost.
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    Boring me can be dangerous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Boring me can be dangerous.


    It's said that 'any excuse will serve a tyrant.' You're not tyrannical are you? If you get bored having regular sex in a peaceful world then how would you react?

    I mean who's going to get angry with you? Actually when I think about it, the right answer would be another guy angry for the same reason. The both of you could kill each other but in the end the world is more peaceful, one maybe two less violent people in the world. That's it! The road to peace is easier to drive when violent people kill other violent people.
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    I agree with some of the above posts. We have to consider the need for adventure, alleviation of boredom, as well as alternatives for people who choose to not indulge in these things.
    The adventurous spirit manifests as trouble only when it has nowhere else to go. It becomes trapped in confrontation. Space exploration may not stop us from fighting out there altogether, but it would release the pressure to do so down here. The frontier is open ended, resources are unlimited, population density would be small. We could go on fending for ourselves as well as each other for quite a while before we start to get in each others face.
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Boring me can be dangerous.


    It's said that 'any excuse will serve a tyrant.' You're not tyrannical are you? If you get bored having regular sex in a peaceful world then how would you react?

    I mean who's going to get angry with you? Actually when I think about it, the right answer would be another guy angry for the same reason. The both of you could kill each other but in the end the world is more peaceful, one maybe two less violent people in the world. That's it! The road to peace is easier to drive when violent people kill other violent people.
    All that yappin' but when other Mr. Violent is eyeballing your wife, children or house- you'll be grateful when I get "bored" on his ass, now wouldn't you?
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    Boring me can be dangerous.


    The road to peace is easier to drive when violent people kill other violent people.
    And I might add that as long as they don't forcibly recruit me to do their dirty work. But who is there to prevent them from doing that except his opponent who would do the same?

    It is an interesting observation that primarily Budhist countries have militaristic governments. The monks don't get into the fighting but the population sometimes has no choice. (If I am wrong about that observation I would like to know. Someone pointed that out to me, and it got me thinking)
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    violence is part of nature. people are part of nature. violence is natural. deal with it. birth is violent. wanna come into the world peacefully? not gonna happen. procreation is somewhat violent.... peaceful sex is boring.
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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    So what if Boring, Right?

    I don't think some are taking it seriously- Just how unhealthy boredom can be. Most of the time, this boredom goes unrecognized for what it is.
    Life seems unfulfilling. It leads to depression.

    The misconception I am seeing is that a lack of negativity of violence or conflict etc, must therefor mean happiness.

    Utter, total, complete nonsense. A lot of the time, a person may not realize they are unhappy until they have been so for quite a while. Sometimes, the depression leads to poor judgment and choices, others to lethargy and others still, suicidal thoughts.

    We desire adventure just as much as we do calm. You cannot take a part that is essential to our lives and think that creates happiness. It doesn't- it cannot- it creates a lack of balance, and a longing for something that's missing, even if the person cannot define what they are missing.

    The boredom can be deadly.
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  98. #97  
    has lost interest seagypsy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverfly View Post
    So what if Boring, Right?

    I don't think some are taking it seriously- Just how unhealthy boredom can be. Most of the time, this boredom goes unrecognized for what it is.
    Life seems unfulfilling. It leads to depression.

    The misconception I am seeing is that a lack of negativity of violence or conflict etc, must therefor mean happiness.

    Utter, total, complete nonsense. A lot of the time, a person may not realize they are unhappy until they have been so for quite a while. Sometimes, the depression leads to poor judgment and choices, others to lethargy and others still, suicidal thoughts.

    We desire adventure just as much as we do calm. You cannot take a part that is essential to our lives and think that creates happiness. It doesn't- it cannot- it creates a lack of balance, and a longing for something that's missing, even if the person cannot define what they are missing.

    The boredom can be deadly.
    which gives us the expression, "Bored to death."
    Speaking badly about people after they are gone and jumping on the bash the band wagon must do very well for a low self-esteem.
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  99. #98  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    What's it going to take? Is it even possible for humans to live in peace?

    I'm talking about no skirmishes anywhere, a lay down or destruction of all weapons, a complete trust and care for each other, a global society that makes love not war. IOW's something totally opposite to what we have now.

    But before we destroy our weapons, will it be necessary to use some first? If we do should we totally eradicate the enemy, remove them from the face of the planet? Or on a less violent scale, would abundance of food keep us from ripping each other's throat out? One religion may be where we need to get to, or maybe no religion. Get off the planet perhaps and start anew? Divine intervention is way down on my probability list but you never know.

    So how in hell are we going to make it happen?
    This is what China has been about since the beginning of history. Unification and peace. The western powers screwed it up, over and over, creating an inferiority complex changing China's goal to developing strength and power. Of course, that's not the whole story. I feel like I've made this comment before...
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  100. #99  
    墨子 DaBOB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seagypsy View Post
    violence is part of nature. people are part of nature. violence is natural. deal with it. birth is violent. wanna come into the world peacefully? not gonna happen. procreation is somewhat violent.... peaceful sex is boring.
    Yet another reminder that basic judgements are almost always false.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  101. #100  
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaBOB View Post
    This is what China has been about since the beginning of history. Unification and peace. The western powers screwed it up, over and over, creating an inferiority complex changing China's goal to developing strength and power. Of course, that's not the whole story. I feel like I've made this comment before...
    Yeah ok- The Western World is responsible for China sucking big hairy balls.

    Indoctrinated, much?
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