Notices
Results 1 to 49 of 49
Like Tree1Likes
  • 1 Post By skeptic

Thread: extra sensory perception

  1. #1 extra sensory perception 
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    3
    i have a theory upon this and wondered if any of you find it feasible

    have you ever known someone or something waas in the room without hearing them or seeing them?my theory is that when you get that its just a hightened form of the sense of feel and you are feeling the added acumulative heat and air pressure in the room and are mearly reacting to that.

    does this sound like it could be true if so tell me


    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,204
    It is probably a combination of things, including a subtle difference in lighting and acoustics of the room. We generally sense our surroundings to a much better extent than we might realise, a lot of it not necessarily being conscious.


    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3  
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    3
    that makes sense
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Masters Degree
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    703
    We are crazy; we often make sense of something that do not exist. We see a shadow and we thought it was people: then we look back and there is no people: and we think crazy ghost. It is just a projection; if we expect stuff (like people is behind us) then we "see" people behind us even they didn't exist (but most likely people IS behind us because they always were).
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Administrator KALSTER's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    8,204
    It might be a bit of a stretch, but this "intuition" of ours might have developed when we were still in regular danger of being eaten by stalking predators. We would still have it today. It isn't perfect though and our minds can often play tricks on us. We might have a feeling of a "presence" when nothing is there.
    Disclaimer: I do not declare myself to be an expert on ANY subject. If I state something as fact that is obviously wrong, please don't hesitate to correct me. I welcome such corrections in an attempt to be as truthful and accurate as possible.

    "Gullibility kills" - Carl Sagan
    "All people know the same truth. Our lives consist of how we chose to distort it." - Harry Block
    "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Moderator Moderator John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    13,659
    Quote Originally Posted by king b3at View Post
    i have a theory upon this and wondered if any of you find it feasible

    have you ever known someone or something waas in the room without hearing them or seeing them?my theory is that when you get that its just a hightened form of the sense of feel and you are feeling the added acumulative heat and air pressure in the room and are mearly reacting to that.

    does this sound like it could be true if so tell me
    I think your idea is generally correct. You have a direct explanation that does not involve any supernatural events, or unknown forces. Perhaps we hear the person breathing, or a tiny, tiny creak of a floorboard, or a wisp of an air current. Those are all much more logical than ESP.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Forum Sophomore ReMakeIt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    126
    There is a subtle magnetic field that surrounds the body as well, due to moving ions in the body and brain. Feeling a presence may have some of this effect as well.


    Journal of Theoretics - Nonprofit peer-reviewed Journal of scientifically credible theories from all disciplines. Original article.
    Electromagnetic Field Sensitivity
    pic2.JPG
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by KALSTER View Post
    It might be a bit of a stretch, but this "intuition" of ours might have developed when we were still in regular danger of being eaten by stalking predators. We would still have it today. It isn't perfect though and our minds can often play tricks on us. We might have a feeling of a "presence" when nothing is there.
    That sounds very agreeable, do you think our reaction to when it's 'too quiet' is related? Maybe the ominous reaction to not hearing anything is related to noticing all the other animals are being as quiet as possible, ie: A predator is near by/stalking something?
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    grail search
    Posts
    811
    Apparently dogs and cats have ESP.

    So, it can't be a higher intelligence unless of course the source is omnipresent, right?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    [QUOTE=theQuestIsNotOver;305011]Apparently dogs and cats have ESP.[\QUOTE]

    What do you mean? What can they sense that isn't the basic 5 senses, or at least can't be explained a heightened sense or a combination of heightened sense?
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    Apparently dogs and cats have ESP.

    So, it can't be a higher intelligence unless of course the source is omnipresent, right?
    What do you mean? What sense do they have that can't be explained by a heightened sense, or a combination of heightened senses?
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope skeptic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    New Zealand
    Posts
    4,718
    Hammerhead sharks have ESP. They can sense the electrical fields associated with their prey hiding under the sand.

    There are a number of senses known beyond the traditional five. Even in humans. For example : we can sense (proprioception) the position we are holding our arms without looking at them, or otherwise detecting them with any of the traditional five senses. We can detect the position of our bodies by our balance sense. We can detect hot or cold temperatures. We can sense pressure. If the definition of ESP is any sense other than the traditional five, then there are many cases of ESP.

    There are vibrational senses known by many animals. For example : a seal can use its whiskers to identify the presense and position of fish or squid prey by the vibrations in water those animals give off. There is echo-location. Many animals have a magnetic sense, and can detect north and navigate using their built in compass.

    YES. ESP is real, if it is defined as any sense apart from sight, hearing, taste, smell, or touch.
    NO.
    It is not mystical in any way whatever. All ESP is grounded in the laws of physics.
    ReMakeIt likes this.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by skeptic View Post
    Hammerhead sharks have ESP. They can sense the electrical fields associated with their prey hiding under the sand.

    There are a number of senses known beyond the traditional five. Even in humans. For example : we can sense (proprioception) the position we are holding our arms without looking at them, or otherwise detecting them with any of the traditional five senses. We can detect the position of our bodies by our balance sense. We can detect hot or cold temperatures. We can sense pressure. If the definition of ESP is any sense other than the traditional five, then there are many cases of ESP.

    There are vibrational senses known by many animals. For example : a seal can use its whiskers to identify the presense and position of fish or squid prey by the vibrations in water those animals give off. There is echo-location. Many animals have a magnetic sense, and can detect north and navigate using their built in compass.

    YES. ESP is real, if it is defined as any sense apart from sight, hearing, taste, smell, or touch.
    NO.
    It is not mystical in any way whatever. All ESP is grounded in the laws of physics.
    Everything you just described can be categorized into the five senses, or is an interaction which isn't characteristic of a sense, unless you'd like to include consciousness as a sense or a perception.
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    SEEKER Genesis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    52 degrees North
    Posts
    148
    most creatures when born have a knack of knowing what to do and what not to do. They sense danger and know how to react, Instinctive behavioral pattern IBP =E.S.P
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    871
    that's why i don't like horror movies....
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,151
    I always hated the idea of 5 senses because it's so obviously wrong and doesn't even relate well to humans. For example only pressure sensation could really be considered "touch," which leaves the sense of heat, cold, pain, position and several others awkwardly crammed into an abismally poor and non-scientific catorization system.

    Other animal have different senses, many of which are completely outside human experience or evolutionary adaption.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I always hated the idea of 5 senses because it's so obviously wrong and doesn't even relate well to humans. For example only pressure sensation could really be considered "touch," which leaves the sense of heat, cold, pain, position and several others awkwardly crammed into an abismally poor and non-scientific catorization system.

    Other animal have different senses, many of which are completely outside human experience or evolutionary adaption.
    I've always been partial to touch encompassing what you can physically feel. I really don't think position is a sense though.. If it were, people would be able to sense their position after an avalanche, yet they can't. Position relates to touch in the sense of Vestibular System, but that's meaningless without the other senses to back it up with supplementary context.
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,151
    I really don't think position is a sense though.. If it were, people would be able to sense their position after an avalanche
    I don't think that's the kind of sense it's talking about. I've always understood it as a sense of where your body parts are in relationship to other parts....such as my ability to break contact with the keyboard and reliability hit a another chord several octaves away even if I'm playing in the dark. Athletes and surgeons do far more impressive feats from the well developed positional sense. Some psychologist such as Garner think it's so important its considers part of their multi-intelligence schema (bodily-kinesthetic).
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Moderator Moderator John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    13,659
    I wholly agree with Lynx-Fox. The only place the outmoded and simplistic five sense paradigm finds any traction is in schoolbooks and TV quiz shows. Detailed classification can be somewhat arbitrary, but I have seen schemes that allowed for up to twenty senses ands that was just for humans. Wikipedia remains properly ambiguous on the subject, listing ten or sixteen depending on how you want to define things.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I don't think that's the kind of sense it's talking about.
    It appears I've spoken too soon. Hmm, after having read that I suppose I'll have to retract my position and move to a more neutral ground - for the time being. Until I've done further research myself.
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    @ Lynx,

    I've thought about it, and, I think that more-or-less could be attributed to experiential learning. To consider it a Schema would work quite well with this, as a Schema is merely some or other conceptual model that influences how a perceiver interacts with its environment. Experiential Learning would explain what creates a Schema - something in the environment you've come to understand through several trials.

    Also, I think this could also be explained simply by voluntarily moving your arm. If you stretch your arm out, you know its stretched our because you put it there - not because you sense it's position. Like the touching your nose with your eyes closed thing: What if I told you to say, "Now," when your finger is going to touch your nose. If you happened to consistently sense when your finger touches your nose... If you did this, was there lapses in your declaration, and as a result inconsistent speed of movement?
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Moderator Moderator John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    13,659
    You are, however, incorrect. Someone experiencing a mild stroke will be unaware where there foot is located and will drag it along the ground, or lift it too high in compensation. This is a sense. You may wish to declare otherwise, but all mainstream neurologists and the like would disagree with you.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  24. #23  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    I feel odd about that being considered a sense, but I will yield.
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  25. #24  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    city of wine and roses
    Posts
    6,228
    I've always understood it as a sense of where your body parts are in relationship to other parts
    I thought that one was well known. It's called proprioception. It's what allows you to touch your nose with your eyes closed and to judge it strength wise so as not to give yourself a bloody nose.
    "Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." Winston Churchill
    "nature is like a game of Jenga; you never know which brick you pull out will cause the whole stack to collapse" Lucy Cooke
    Reply With Quote  
     

  26. #25  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    7,770
    It's important to try and differentiate between original input and senses that are the result of analysis being conducted by the brain to interpret that data after it has already arrived. A lot of the touch sense categories are probably occurring after the brain receives the signal. Your position sense could be as simple as knowing what your muscles are supposed to feel like at various degrees of contraction. Sense of hot and cold similarly is probably just a derived sense, from knowing how your skin is normally supposed to feel, and remembering what effect cold/hot temperatures have had in the past.


    On the other hand, balance perception occurs in the inner ear. It actually involves it's own dedicated organs. When that organ fails, a person experiences "vertigo", even though in many cases they may still be able to hear normally.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertigo

    If we allow post processing in the brain to count as a sense, we'd opening like a godzillion doors up. Empathy, the ability to figure out via analysis how another person is likely to be feeling based on what you've seen happen to them, and facial expressions ...etc. That would become a sense. Common sense would be a sense. Deductive reasoning would be a sense (the ability to perceive something not readily visible to the 5 senses by deducing it from other things that are readily visible to the 5 senses.) The ability to read and write would be a sense (the ability to perceive what another person meant to communicate based on seeing only the symbols they etched or painted onto a surface.)
    If you wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight,.... then what is the use in bringing a gun to a nuclear war?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  27. #26  
    Moderator Moderator
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    8,151
    Sense of hot and cold similarly is probably just a derived sense, from knowing how your skin is normally supposed to feel, and remembering what effect cold/hot temperatures have had in the past.
    I think receptors are identified for those.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
    “The Holy Land is everywhere” Black Elk
    Reply With Quote  
     

  28. #27  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    7,770
    There is this:

    Thermoception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It's still sensing the state your body is in. Perhaps we could divide sensory into two broad categories of internal and external perception? Sight, hearing, and smell focus on telling you what's going on outside your body, while hot/cold sense tells you more what temperature your body is experiencing (which is still useful in telling you about the outside world, of course, but a bit less focused on it.)

    Probably the body has a plethora of internal diagnostic tools that can tell you things ranging from how tired you are, to how heavy the backpack you're carrying is, or how irritating a wool shirt is when you're wearing wool. It would be easier to lump those into a category, and then have another category for senses that tell you what's going on outside your body.
    If you wouldn't bring a knife to a gun fight,.... then what is the use in bringing a gun to a nuclear war?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  29. #28  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    856
    I have seen the following on several tv shows like Stan Lees superhumans ex. ex.


    Some blind human beings, are able to make clicking noises with their mouth, and navigate with this. They are also able to tell diferent objects apart, like a bat.

    I believe there are even schools that teach blind people this skill.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  30. #29  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    856
    [QUOTE=theQuestIsNotOver;305011]Apparently dogs and cats have ESP.



    I have heard this as well.

    I have heard that certain dogs, are able to tell when their owners are coming home, when their owners are still 1-3? hours away (in a moving car.)

    ( but I do not know how solid/scientific this source is.)



    Dogs and humans are a seperate species, but dogs in their own minds, think they are humans. And we are both mammals.


    Question.

    In a pack of wolves (the animal dogs came from)


    How far does a pack of wolves seperate from each other, when they go hunting ?

    How far of a distance do members of a pack of wolves, get between each other ?


    If this (claimed) dog esp was real, I would assume it would be in existance, to help a pack locate and find each other. Thats why I wonder about the distances wolves seperate from each other.


    Also,

    Some human twins claim to have some kind of esp connection.

    And I hear storys of humans, knowing a bad event happened to their family members, by some form of esp, when they were very far away.


    This all started last night, when I started thinking about this old country music song, called "Mama knows" by Shenandoah, the following are some lyrics from the song,


    She saw me coming through the back door screen
    I knew the minute that she looked at me

    Mama knows, mama knows
    ((Sometimes I think she's got a window to my soul))
    Mama knows, mama knows
    Even when I think it doesn't show
    Mama knows


    Fifteen and shy I didn't tell a soul
    ((How is it mama never has to be told))


    The writer of the above song, seems to have believed his mother, had some kind of esp connection with him, and I would assume this is a common belief with (some) people.



    But I have this same above ability, with my youngest family member. I can tell when he is going to ask me, to buy him something. But it is (not) esp. I can tell because he gets nicer than usual, and gives me some kind of gift.


    Some people claim that (some) dogs, have an ability to know when their owners are coming home, with a esp like sense.
    And some people claim, that (some) people have simular abilitys.


    I just want to know, how far of a distance, does a pack of wolves seperate from each other ???
    Last edited by chad; March 22nd, 2012 at 05:32 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  31. #30  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    856
    I have also heard, but I dont remember were, (its hard to believe) I could have heard this from some person on the streets. This could be street fantasy gosip.


    But I heard the following,

    Some group, did a test were a metal wall seperated a group of hunting dogs from their owner, and even though, the dogs owner, and the dogs were seperated by a metal wall, the dogs would start to bark and get happy, every time the owner raised his gun.


    They said, the dogs were able to tell, when ever the owner raised his gun, through a metal wall, by the dogs getting very excited.



    But I am thinking now, if this were true, it would be very much talked about, in some scientific comunity.



    I was in downtown New Orleans a few years back, walking down an ally with a group of friends, and we passed this other group of people. And as I was passing them I heard a man say "global warming may cause earth to become like venus" And I walked on, but this strangers (theory) stuck with me (and I thought it could be a real theory.)


    I may have heard this dog/hunter esp theory, from a stranger, that was standing 3 shopping carts behind me, in a check-out line in a grocery store.

    If it was true (I would think) a large group of scientists would be studying it.


    I am sorry for dragging your brains into the world of esp, and (possible) fantasy street gosip.



    But I still cant help thinking, how far do a pack of wolves seperate from each other?
    Last edited by chad; March 22nd, 2012 at 11:02 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  32. #31  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    856
    These dog esp theorys, may (not) be, from proper scientific data collecting.


    But (I) think the following, is most likely true and real. (but it could be fake tv for ratings)
    EDIT: I THINK ITS REAL.

    The following link is from the website discoveryuk , it is around 2 minutes and 23 seconds long, it shows a human being using sound waves to navigate, and I have also seen the same sound wave navigation, used to tell different objects apart.


    Stan Lee's Superhumans on DiscoveryUK.com




    I personally (at this monent) believe, the above link shows a homo sapien using (echo-location) to navigate.



    EDIT: THE FOLLOWING YOUTUBE VIDEO SHOWS MANY BLIND PEOPLE USING ECHO-LOCATION.


    THESE BLIND PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO RIDE BICYCLES DOWN STREETS AVOIDING CARS AND PEOPLE, THEY ALSO ARE ABLE TO RIDE BICYCLES ON COUNTRY DIRT ROAD LOCATIONS AVOIDING ROCKS AND TREES. IT SHOWS BLIND MEN TRAINING YOUNG BLIND CHILDREN TO USE ECHO LOCATION.


    THEY ARE ABLE TO IDENTIFY TREES, BUILDINGS, LIGHT POLES EX. EX. BY ECHO-LOCATION.



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uobuBc2GO0o
    Last edited by chad; March 22nd, 2012 at 11:39 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  33. #32  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    29
    Just as frequencies of light ellude us, sound does as well. If we have an integrated system of "normal" sensory perception (the 5 senses), there need not be compensation. However, our senses are crutial to environmental adaptation and survival and if disrupted, our sensorium is altered in ways that seem eerie because it takes time for our brians to learn new CNS pathways. If the CNS is obliterated, such as a spinal cord injury, our sensations are altered permanently and we cannot learn our way around them (though this is a classical view because neuroscience it constantly evolving/improving ). Contrarily, environmental stimuli is learned and initiates a "cascade" of events that are relevant to past events. If something is hot, our brains get the message which sends a message to move. We learn quick what is hot and to avoid it because if we did not have this sensation, we would burn ourselves thus causing infection resulting in debilitation; a survival mechanisms. So are innate senses such as an infant's rooting reflex and is more so a primitave survival mechanism, genetically programed, but becomes null once the infant learns other routes of feeding. If the glossopharyngeal nerve is damaged, this reflux would be significantly impaired to not only the infant, but adults as well.

    Senses are necessary "input data" into the "megaboard" to descriminate the perception of our environment in which we must learn to survive and is unique to each individual. Some people are color blind, old people can only taste salty and sweet

    But...what excess exists that is not detrimental to our surival? Perhaps we haven't learned to see iin nfrared because we do not need to. Or, we are not keen on sounds that pose no threat...These "signals" make no sense because we have no need process them. I am sitting here on earth spinning at magnificant speeds but can't feel it (that's math though) but stepping off a treadmill I feel as though I am about to run into a wall. My grandmother has accused me of doing drugs because I hear the annoying twerp of her electrical rodent repellant and she does not. What else exists that we do not sense and can we learn to?

    This link is the most intriguing experiment I've read relating to those extra senses and the ghostly essense: Infrasound - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ESPecially Tandy's, "Ghost in the Machine!" Also, I once saw a bunk show where people were more likely to predict a random sequence if provocative pictures were shown v.s. other photos and their reasoning was that human evolution required that we anticipate procreation...the great and wonderous amagdyla, I assume. And something about the double slit theory and the sensation of someone "watching" you, but will have to try and read more...to make better sense of it. Very interesting topic and posts that pose many more questions, indeed!
    Reply With Quote  
     

  34. #33  
    Moderator Moderator John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    13,659
    I feel like such a rat, because you have made a serious effort to contribute an informative and thoughtful post, but I have this bucket of cold water and a combination of nature and nurture causes me to throw it.

    We will never be able to learn to do anything like see in infra-red because we need to. The ability to see infra-red would be contingent on the types of photoreceptors we have in our eyes. This is determined by genetics. Until and unless one of our number experiences a mutation in their germ cells that generates such receptors in their children we are stuck with the 'visible' portion of the spectrum.

    Can we enhance existing senses through practice and circumstance? Of course we can, but only within limits set by our genetic heritage.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  35. #34  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    喫茶店
    Posts
    16,221
    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    I have seen the following on several tv shows like Stan Lees superhumans ex. ex.


    Some blind human beings, are able to make clicking noises with their mouth, and navigate with this. They are also able to tell diferent objects apart, like a bat.

    I believe there are even schools that teach blind people this skill.
    Even more impressive, some blind people can find their way around using sight: Blindsight - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
    Reply With Quote  
     

  36. #35  
    Brassica oleracea Strange's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    喫茶店
    Posts
    16,221
    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    I have heard that certain dogs, are able to tell when their owners are coming home, when their owners are still 1-3? hours away (in a moving car.)
    Nope. No scientific evidence for this at all. (Sheldrake will keep insisting there is, massaging the figures to try and make them convincing but ... no.)
    Without wishing to overstate my case, everything in the observable universe definitely has its origins in Northamptonshire -- Alan Moore
    Reply With Quote  
     

  37. #36  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    I have heard that certain dogs, are able to tell when their owners are coming home, when their owners are still 1-3? hours away (in a moving car.)
    Nope. No scientific evidence for this at all. (Sheldrake will keep insisting there is, massaging the figures to try and make them convincing but ... no.)
    There was a program I was listening to on CBC radio about six months ago. They said that a dog's sense of the present lasts much longer than our own. If you and I are sitting in someplace, and I then leave, you would acknowledge that I am no longer present. Dogs however, can pick up our scents for a very long time after we are gone. Dog's can still hear us in circumstances that a human would not. Perhaps it has more to do with conditioning, and the dog's perception that an owner is present as the scent is still there?
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  38. #37  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    29
    [QUOTE=John Galt;315628]I feel like such a rat, because you have made a serious effort to contribute an informative and thoughtful post, but I have this bucket of cold water and a combination of nature and nurture causes me to throw it.

    We will never be able to learn to do anything like see in infra-red because we need to. The ability to see infra-red would be contingent on the types of photoreceptors we have in our eyes. This is determined by genetics. Until and unless one of our number experiences a mutation in their germ cells that generates such receptors in their children we are stuck with the 'visible' portion of the spectrum.

    Can we enhance existing senses through practice and circumstance? Of course we can, but only within limits set by our genetic heritage.[/QUOT

    That is true, but our ancestors as well as most mammals were limited in their visual spectrum to the perception of only green and blue wavelengths until a genetic mutation allowed for the red spectrum. Hypothetically, if there was a disruption of neural pathways where the brain could not interpret the green and blue spectrum, would retinal abilities to preceive the red spectrum become enhanced? Such as, is the predisposed capacity to see the red spectrum limited because the combination of all three are what we need to perceive our world?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  39. #38  
    Moderator Moderator John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    13,659
    What you say is possible. What I was specifically challenging was your suggestion that we might learn to do something through need. That clearly implies a Lamarkian mechanism of inheritance which to date the evidence is overwhelmingly against.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  40. #39  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    856
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    Apparently dogs and cats have ESP.

    So, it can't be a higher intelligence unless of course the source is omnipresent, right?
    What do you mean? What sense do they have that can't be explained by a heightened sense, or a combination of heightened senses?




    The following is a link to abcnews.go, the clip is around 8 minutes long. It shows esp telepathy experiments with human twins.

    The link shows esp experiments, that were done with (outstanding) scientific methods and data collection.


    This link scientificly states "there is evidence that human esp telepathy may be possible, and needs further investigation, and further investigation is warranted"

    Note: this link is part 5 of this program, the other parts of the program (may) not be as scientific.




    The Twin Experiment | Video - ABC News





    I am (not) saying esp is real.


    Its just that I hear so much talk about esp. I hear talk of esp in different animals, esp in different cultures, and esp in different countrys.
    And talk of esp from so many diferent angles.

    Were does all this talk originate ?

    I do not seem to see a human leader or organization, that spreads beliefs of esp in human cultures. And still this talk of esp pops up everywere.



    The above source states that this is the (only) experiment of its kind that is currently taking place.

    I personally hope many other scientific groups, will re-do this experiment, and find out if this is actually real.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  41. #40  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    29
    I meant "learn" to mean that if one of our senses were compromised, would we experience enhancement of the other because we would become dependent upon it to survive; as if our programed genetic potiential has not been fully acknowledged by the brain because there is no need to. When the pathways are disrupted, our genetic predisposition is useless. It doesn't matter if we've evolved over millions of years (or hundreds of thousands for our species, particularly) for our muscle fibers to contract (at the cellular level)... when this neuro connection is damaged, the ribosomal factor is null, right (it's a question specifically because I do not know)? Anywho, it shuts the system down.

    But the same concept is really what I was trying to penetrate... paralysis from the neck down does not mean that the genetic potential does not exist. It's still there, just inoperable. What genetic potential exists that the brain does not recognize while fully operable and could this lead to ESP (in the scientific sense)?

    Human retinal photoreceptors are capable of detecting electromagnetic wavelengths in the red, but we do not need to see infra-red because our environment dictates that we see both blue and green wavelengths as well. I am literally/legally blind and I have not adapted the ability to see infra-red (which would be so awsome) but genetically, I am able to see all three, it's just a matter of wavelength direction that I am unable to see. Thanks to modern technology, I have 20/20 vision! But in the wild, in a more primitive environment/state of mind, would my body compensate? Would my ability to hear become more keen than my mother or father although I've inherited my 50/50 from them? Not in a majestical or Lamarkian sense, but because I never accessed the full potential of my hearing because I didn't need to...in a world where I could see?

    Further, since you did mention Lamark (and I don't mean to turn this into genetics), what is your opinion of epigenetics and how could that fit this paradigm?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  42. #41  
    Forum Ph.D. stander-j's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Winnipeg
    Posts
    854
    Quote Originally Posted by chad View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by stander-j View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by theQuestIsNotOver View Post
    Apparently dogs and cats have ESP.

    So, it can't be a higher intelligence unless of course the source is omnipresent, right?
    What do you mean? What sense do they have that can't be explained by a heightened sense, or a combination of heightened senses?
    I do not seem to see a human leader or organization, that spreads beliefs of esp in human cultures. And still this talk of esp pops up everywere.

    The above source states that this is the (only) experiment of its kind that is currently taking place.

    I personally hope many other scientific groups, will re-do this experiment, and find out if this is actually real.
    Well, your source says the results have not been replicated, that doesn't necessarily mean the experiment hasn't been. One thing that somewhat bothers me is that they never did the same tests with an equal amount of people who didn't claim to have some sort of psychic connection.

    Psychic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Edit: ^ Explains why it is such a prevalent thing. And apparently there are people who spread belief in psychic powers - Uri Geller for one. You were emphasizing psychic powers as a type of esp, right?
    "Cultivated leisure is the aim of man."
    Reply With Quote  
     

  43. #42  
    Moderator Moderator John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    13,659
    Quote Originally Posted by inite View Post
    Human retinal photoreceptors are capable of detecting electromagnetic wavelengths in the red, but we do not need to see infra-red because our environment dictates that we see both blue and green wavelengths as well.

    Further, since you did mention Lamark (and I don't mean to turn this into genetics), what is your opinion of epigenetics and how could that fit this paradigm?
    1. Are you stating that our photoreceptors actually react to infra-red? Your statement is ambiguous. If you do mean this, do you have any references?
    2. I think epigenetics plays a small role in the total evolutionary process, though the details of that role remain to be defined.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  44. #43  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    29
    Not at all, but the difference between the visual spectrum of red light and near infrared is about 100nm. (If we could not see green or blue, would this limit be breeched?) Perhaps I am using an inappropriate analogy.

    My general question in reference to ESP:

    If our senses are genetically predetermined and are meant to maintain homeostasis within our environment, are we functioning at our full genetic potential, or are specific regions that code for particular functions switched "on" or "off" when our environment changes thus causing our brains to interpret the new signal as extra sensory perception until the brain can establish a permanent pathway?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  45. #44  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    856
    Well, your source says the results have not been replicated, that doesn't necessarily mean the experiment hasn't been. One thing that somewhat bothers me is that they never did the same tests with an equal amount of people who didn't claim to have some sort of psychic connection.


    (I assume you may be correct.)



    Psychic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Edit: ^ Explains why it is such a prevalent thing. And apparently there are people who spread belief in psychic powers - Uri Geller for one. You were emphasizing psychic powers as a type of esp, right?[/QUOTE]




    No, I do not even see how, it would be even possible to be a psychic.

    Being a psychic, would be like being able to predict what number a dice would land on, before you roll it. I dont think its even possible.






    The kind of esp I was talking about, was some kind of telapathic connection between animals.


    But it seems there is (no) real evidence of this, except for lots of gosip like talk about it.


    My thoughts come from the following things, and I realize most of them can be proven to be un-true.
    (but they all have the same basic idea.)

    1. Traditional Australians claim to be telapathicly connected (and that they are able to realize, when something bad happens to a family member who is very far away.)

    2. Lots and lots of American people say they have had bad feelings, at the same time a family member was hurt.

    3. Many, many, many twins claim to have the same telapathic feelings about each other.

    4. And many pet owners claim their dogs are able to know, when their owners are coming home (when they are 100+ miles away.)

    5. And if you asked all americans "have you ever had feelings that you could not explain, at some time during your life?"
    I believe a fairly large % would answer the question "yes".



    I am not saying animals have telapathic connections, but I personally would like it (fully) expored scientificly.



    I hope the European experiment with twins gets done more.


    And after hearing about all these dog owners claiming, their dogs know they are coming home (when they are 100 miles from home). I would like some one to do the following experiment.



    Study social packs of mammals living in the wild, do members of these packs ever get 50-150 miles away from other members of the pack, and find each other again ?
    (when their sense of smell could not be the reason they found each other.)



    I originally started these posts to defend the position of thequestisnotover, b/c thequestisnotover was not listing sources for their statements. So I went and looked for sources to defend that position. And I could find no 100% proof, but I found a bunch of talk of it.


    I just would like that European experiment to get done more, the ways you said it should be done.
    Because of 1-5 that I listed above.

    Chad.
    Last edited by chad; March 27th, 2012 at 07:07 PM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  46. #45  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    856
    Well, your source says the results have not been replicated, that doesn't necessarily mean the experiment hasn't been. One thing that somewhat bothers me is that they never did the same tests with an equal amount of people who didn't claim to have some sort of psychic connection.





    The source says, this is the only experement of its kind, that has taken place in a (labortory) setting.



    The twins in the experiment that did the best, were twins who did (not) claim to be telapathicly connected.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  47. #46  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    856
    I came here to say, that I am kind of embarrassed for saying these things about human telapathy. It all started by me trying to defend thequestisnotover's position, since the quest was not listing sources for their own statements.

    I got on the computer to research into that pyscologist that did the twins experiment in the link above. I was expecting to find that he stopped doing the tests, or he did the experiment again, and no evidence for telapathic communication were found in the other experiments. But I could not even find the psycologists experiment in my google searches.


    And even worse for my state of embarressment, I managed to find other sources showing telapathic connections between human twins.


    The bellow links show many more simular experiments with twins. Some were male twins, and some were female twins. Some of the twins involved in these experiments were young children. These experiments were not in labortory settings, but some people said they were not rigged.


    (In parts of the bellow links, they tell of several experiments involving human twins, with un-explainable results.)



    Telepathy experiments with identical twins - Parapsychology articles and blog


    Twin Telepathy: Best Evidence - The Best Evidence for Telepathy Between Twins


    Weird coincidences: Twins and dreams | Dreams Sleep Talk


    ESP Researchers - Telepathy


    http://www.dprogram.com/twin_telepathy.html


    http://www.buzzle.com/articles/twin-telepathy.html


    http://www.mind-energy.net/archives/...periments.html


    http://www.facebook.com/note.php?not...54073827978390


    http://www.forteantimes.com/features...messaging.html


    http://library.thinkquest.org/C01209...pathyfull.html


    http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclo...anglement.html






    I came here expecting and (hoping) to say, thequestisnotover's statements have no proof.


    But instead I must say, with the things I personally know, and with the sources I have personally seen,


    There is (no) scientific eveidence that animal telapathy exists,
    But as the psycologist in my first link said "further experiments are warranted" , and though I am highly embarrassed I must agree at this moment.




    I have said nothing here that was not said by someone else.


    And I guess all these sources I listed, could be un-true, but at this moment (I DO NOT KNOW ???)



    But I do know that I am embarrassed...................................
    Last edited by chad; March 29th, 2012 at 04:31 AM.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  48. #47  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    29
    Hey, Chad, thanks for the links! Here is a fun episode of Through the Wormhole: Is There A Sixth Sense? with a few research endeavors Through The Wormhole - SE 2 EP 5 Part 1 - YouTube and here is a link Infrasound Communication Among Elephants about elephant communication where researchers were able to "feel" the vibrations from inaudible sounds produced by the herds inspiring them to probe deeper into the various ways in which elephants communicate.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  49. #48  
    Forum Freshman
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    13
    For years James Randi has offered a one million dollar prize to anyone who can prove a super-natural ability in a controled test. So far, no takers (of the prize).
    Reply With Quote  
     

  50. #49  
    Forum Ph.D.
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    856
    Quote Originally Posted by slush33 View Post
    For years James Randi has offered a one million dollar prize to anyone who can prove a super-natural ability in a controled test. So far, no takers (of the prize).



    I really like this James Randi guy. It seems he offered up the prize to dis-credit well known psychics, who had large numbers of people believing, that they actually had supernatural powers.


    I am very sorry, if I dragged any of you, into the world of esp.



    And thank you slush33, because of you, I am no longer thinking about human esp, now I am thinking about people that lie.

    Thank you,
    Chad.
    Reply With Quote  
     

Similar Threads

  1. extra weight
    By gabr2003 in forum Health & Medicine
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: August 29th, 2011, 06:46 PM
  2. Does extra oil REALLY cause pimples?
    By bgjyd834 in forum Health & Medicine
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: April 27th, 2011, 04:06 PM
  3. The Search for extra terrestrial intelligence
    By Gus in forum Astronomy & Cosmology
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: February 11th, 2007, 04:50 PM
  4. Difference between Motor and Sensory Aphasia?
    By Petroleum in forum Biology
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: December 7th, 2006, 05:37 AM
  5. Research on Sensory Modality Dominance
    By nini_kirsch in forum Health & Medicine
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: June 1st, 2006, 12:04 PM
Tags for this Thread

View Tag Cloud

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •