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View Poll Results: Do you thank its ethical to breed animals to be mor desirable as pets.???

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Thread: Pets-ethics

  1. #1 Pets-ethics 
    Forum Sophomore cluelusshusbund's Avatar
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    I say no... i thank breedin animals "for our purpose" is unethical.!!!


    Last edited by cluelusshusbund; August 17th, 2011 at 06:17 PM. Reason: deleted duplicate words
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  3. #2  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    I say no... i thank breedin animals "for our purpose" is unethical.!!!
    Hey Clueless, glad you're with us.

    Personally I think evolving to the point where we can manipulate the gene pool is all perfectly natural. Go for it!


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  4. #3  
    Forum Sophomore cluelusshusbund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    I say no... i thank breedin animals "for our purpose" is unethical.!!!
    Hey Clueless, glad you're with us.

    Personally I think evolving to the point where we can manipulate the gene pool is all perfectly natural. Go for it!
    Thanks... an i can see anythang we do as bein natural... but i thank manipulatin our own gene pool is mor ethical than doin it to animals which are less evolved than we are.!!!

    This esample:::
    If humans was captured by highly evolved aliens... woud us humans thank it ethical if those aliens manipulated our genes to beter serve ther purpos.???
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  5. #4  
    Forum Radioactive Isotope zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    I don't think it would matter what we thought. I'd rather be the manipulator in your example.
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  6. #5  
    Forum Sophomore cluelusshusbund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos View Post
    I'd rather be the manipulator in your example.
    Me to... i dont thank i woud make a good pet.!!!
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  7. #6  
    Forum Bachelors Degree 15uliane's Avatar
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    why not, were not hurting them, and we have been selectively breeding for thousands of years.
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  8. #7  
    Forum Sophomore cluelusshusbund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 15uliane View Post
    why not, were not hurting them, and we have been selectively breeding for thousands of years.
    Well how do you answr this argument:::

    This esample:::
    If humans was captured by highly evolved aliens... woud us humans thank it ethical if those aliens manipulated our genes to beter serve ther purpos.???
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  9. #8  
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    Sure, humans have been breeding animals for over a hundred thousand years. Why would it all of a sudden be unethical?

    If aliens bred humans, that would be ethical as well. It would be like a tiger eating someone. I might not like it, but it wouldn't be unethical.
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  10. #9  
    Forum Sophomore cluelusshusbund's Avatar
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    This esample:::
    If humans was captured by highly evolved aliens... woud us humans thank it ethical if those aliens manipulated our genes to beter serve ther purpos.???

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Sure, humans have been breeding animals for over a hundred thousand years. Why would it all of a sudden be unethical?
    Slavery mite have been considered ethical thousands of years ago but not so much anymor.!!!

    If aliens bred humans, that would be ethical as well. It would be like a tiger eating someone. I might not like it, but it wouldn't be unethical.
    I agree wit you'r tiger esample... but unlike my esample... the tiger is much less evolved than the victim it took advantage of... an tigers atack an eat for survival... our pets are not necesary for our survival.!!!
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  11. #10  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by 15uliane View Post
    why not, were not hurting them, and we have been selectively breeding for thousands of years.
    Well how do you answr this argument:::

    This esample:::
    If humans was captured by highly evolved aliens... woud us humans thank it ethical if those aliens manipulated our genes to beter serve ther purpos.???
    Probably not, but in this scenario the aliens would be the dominant species.
    Besides, this analogy requires animals to be as intelligent as us, which just isn't the case. Nowhere near close to it.

    I am pro using animals to save human lives, be that breeding or animal testing or whatever.
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  12. #11  
    Forum Sophomore cluelusshusbund's Avatar
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    If humans was captured by highly evolved aliens... woud us humans thank it ethical if those aliens manipulated our genes to beter serve ther purpos.???

    iainmacb
    "Probably not"
    We agree.!!!

    ...but in this scenario the aliens would be the dominant species.
    Yes... an you agree that it woud be unethical for that dominate species to selectivly breed "us" lesser evolved animals for ther own purpos.!!!

    Besides, this analogy requires animals to be as intelligent as us, which just isn't the case. Nowhere near close to it.

    I am pro using animals to save human lives, be that breeding or animal testing or whatever.
    Im also pro usin animals to save human lives but i still thank its unethical.!!!

    Do you thank animals shoud be treeted humainly as posible when they are used for "testing".???

    Do you thank its unethical to breed animals in such a way which makes 'em mor desirable as pets... but is detramental to ther health.???
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  13. #12  
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    Let me propose a few arguments before I give a direct answer.

    1) Livestock are selectively bred to produce larger quantities of higher quality meats. Without selective breeding, more animals would be killed to make up for the lack in production per unit. I think this is an ethical approach in favor of all parties. (If you do not consider livestock pets, then I apologize. I will provide more examples :-)

    2) Properly conducted breeding procedures lead to lower risks of birth defects, lower mortality rates, and healthier offspring. On the other hand, some pets have been bred carelessly and resulted in some variants (i.e. Pekingese) that are damn near freaks of nature. I would consider the former sentence an example of ethical breeding, and the latter an example of non-ethical breeding.

    3) Selective breeding is part of evolutionary process. The question of ethics is not whether we should or shouldn't breed our pets to suit our needs. No matter what you say to this question, simple observation proves that nature facilitates selection. The true question is to which selections are the most beneficial.

    Maybe this is a Utilitarian perspective, but I can't fathom anything being unethical in regard to improving a system. You want to stop breeding pets? I hope you like a bunch of mutts without any predictable traits. Natural selection gives us, as humans, responsibility in the realm of Earth. How would our communities fare if we gave rule to the Ant? They are dedicated hard workers no doubt, but we just simply couldn't sustain the lives of over 6 billion people under the direction and choice of the Ant. So we all try to live harmoniously right? No animal should change the "natural fate" of any other animal. Well what about the finches in the Galapagos Islands? Don't they use sticks (tools) to spear their prey in deep within the bark of the trees? At what point does a tool become unnatural?

    I return to my point. As humans it is our responsibility to ourselves and the rest of the planet for its own longevity and well being. I doubt we will make it off this planet, nor will any other life forms, if humans do not make the choices necessary to expand our minds and technologies as we encroach upon the unknown. Computers, video games, nanotechnology, robotics, artificial intelligence, and selective breeding are all parts in a larger natural process.

    So I would answer Yes. Selective breeding is ethical when it is well informed and directed toward the well being of humanity.
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  14. #13  
    Forum Sophomore cluelusshusbund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The-Ology View Post
    1) Livestock are selectively bred to produce larger quantities of higher quality meats. Without selective breeding, more animals would be killed to make up for the lack in production per unit. I think this is an ethical approach in favor of all parties.
    Woud you consider it ethical for highly advanced aliens to selectively breed humans for food in the way you describe above???... not to mention the issue of the quality of life for selectivly bread food animals... such as chickens wit such big breasts they can barly walk.!!!

    2) Properly conducted breeding procedures lead to lower risks of birth defects, lower mortality rates, and healthier offspring.
    "an example of ethical breeding"
    oK... but woud you consider it ethical if som un-known power manipulated our genes in ways "they" determined to be to our benifit... or woud you druther have a say in it.???

    3) Selective breeding is part of evolutionary process. The question of ethics is not whether we should or shouldn't breed our pets to suit our needs.
    No matter what you say to this question, simple observation proves that nature facilitates selection. The true question is to which selections are the most beneficial.
    You gave an esample (below) in which you agree that the selective breedin of pets was unethical... ie... whether selective breedin is considered natural or not is irrelevent to my queston of whether its ethical or not to selectively breed pets to suit our needs.!!!

    The-Ology---"some pets have been bred carelessly and resulted in some variants (i.e. Pekingese) that are damn near freaks of nature.
    "an example of non-ethical breeding."

    Maybe this is a Utilitarian perspective, but I can't fathom anything being unethical in regard to improving a system.
    Its all in the eye of the beholder... for esample... Hitler (in his mind) "improved" a system.!!!

    But mor on pont... i thank its unethical for a highly advanced animal to selectivly breed animals who dont have a say in the mater.!!!

    You want to stop breeding pets?
    I hope you like a bunch of mutts without any predictable traits.
    Whether or not pets have predictaable trates is irrelevent to whether or not selective breedin is ethical.!!!

    Natural selection gives us, as humans, responsibility in the realm of Earth.
    How would our communities fare if we gave rule to the Ant? They are dedicated hard workers no doubt, but we just simply couldn't sustain the lives of 6 billions people under the direction and choice of the Ant. So we all try to live harmoniously right? No animal should change the "natural fate" of any other animal.
    As you'r prevous esample demonstrated... jus because we CAN manipulate other animals does not necessarly mean its ethical.!!!

    Well what about the finches in the Galapagos Islands? Don't they use sticks (tools) to spear their prey in deep within the bark of the trees? At what point does a tool become unnatural?
    Everthang is "natural"... som monkeys make an also use spears to kill other animals... an i thank killin for survival is mor ethical than killin for sport or food we dont need to thrive.!!!

    I return to my point. As humans it is our responsibility to ourselves and the rest of the planet for its own longevity and well being. I doubt we will make it off this planet, nor will any other life forms, if humans do not make the choices necessary to expand our minds and technologies as we encroach upon the unknown. Computers, video games, nanotechnology, robotics, artificial intelligence, and selective breeding are all parts in a larger natural process.

    So I would answer Yes. Selective breeding is ethical when it is well informed and directed toward the well being of humanity.
    Humans are curently at the top of the food chane... but that dont mean the choises we make for other animals are necessarly ethical.!!!
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  15. #14  
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    Why do you keep asking if Aliens eating us would be ethical? Is it ethical for the lion to eat the antelope? I'm all for a reformation in breeding standards to produce healthier breeds. I don't think any dog should exist that cannot survive without being groomed monthly.

    My only point is that selective breeding in general is not unethical. There are only unethical methods and procedures that should be investigated, reformed, and monitored.
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  16. #15  
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    I see nothing wrong with it. Our current set of domestic animals are far from human intelligence and the lives of pets are almost always better in just about every way than those of their wild counterparts. I had a pet fox growing up. She wasn't friendly among those outside the family but somewhat like a dog in our household. I know there's been a genetic project that gives foxes even more dog like traits including craving human attention just by selective breeding in a half dozen generations. Our pet fox lived nearly 14 years, probably triple her wild counterparts, was only scared for her life once, never went hungry or got seriously injured, slept in on rug in a warm house most nights (some nights she insistent staying out in the bad weather), received nearly constant attention and exercise from dad and two active kids that had her by their side just about every afternoon. I'd love to have another fox that was even more predisposed towards people.

    Like many people we didn't eat her, we buried her with a couple toys in the back yard. Most people don't eat their pets, so I don't know what that even has to do with the thread.

    I don't think the ethical arguments of past behaviors hold much water, slavery, human sacrifice and killing homosexuals would still be accepted if it was.
    Last edited by Lynx_Fox; August 17th, 2011 at 11:31 PM.
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  17. #16  
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    The-Ology
    Why do you keep asking if Aliens eating us would be ethical?
    Because its relatable to what "we" do to lesser evolved animals... which may cause pause for thout about its ethicacy... an below is the queston i ask an woud still like to hear you'r answr.!!!

    cluelusshusbund---"Woud you consider it ethical for highly advanced aliens to selectively breed humans for food...???"

    Is it ethical for the lion to eat the antelope?
    Like i said earlier... "i thank killin for survival [as in you'r lion antelop esample] is mor ethical than killin for sport or food we dont need to thrive.!!!"

    I'm all for a reformation in breeding standards to produce healthier breeds. I don't think any dog should exist that cannot survive without being groomed monthly.
    My only point is that selective breeding in general is not unethical. There are only unethical methods and procedures that should be investigated, reformed, and monitored.
    Yes that woud make selective breedin mor ethical... but i still contend that ANY selective breedin of pets is less than ethical... which the queston (below) that i ask earlier woud cause (i woud thank) one to ponder this queston... "is it truly ethical for us to selectivly breed animals.???

    cluelusshusbund---"woud you consider it ethical if som un-known power manipulated our genes in ways "they" determined to be to our benifit... or woud you druther have a say in it.???
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I don't think the ethical arguments of past behaviors hold much water, slavery, human sacrifice and killing homosexuals would still be accepted if it was.
    What if slavery came back in fashion? Would that make it ethical? How would you know?
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  19. #18  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I don't think the ethical arguments of past behaviors hold much water, slavery, human sacrifice and killing homosexuals would still be accepted if it was.
    What if slavery came back in fashion? Would that make it ethical? How would you know?
    Your question has little to do with my point that tradition is not in it of itself strong argument for measuring ethics--regardless of your particular form of them.
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  20. #19  
    Forum Sophomore cluelusshusbund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I see nothing wrong with it. Our current set of domestic animals are far from human intelligence and the lives of pets are almost always better in just about every way than those of their wild counterparts.
    For esample... if highly evolved aliens had the sam opinion/rationalizations about you (ther newly captured pet)... an induced you to breed wit anuther captured human (of ther choosin) to create mor desirable human pets which woud be treeted well an live longer... do you see that as an ethical scenario.???

    I had a pet fox growing up. She wasn't friendly among those outside the family but somewhat like a dog in our household. I know there's been a genetic project that gives foxes even more dog like traits including craving human attention just by selective breeding in a half generations. Our pet fox live nearly 14 years, probably triple her wild counterparts, slept in on rug in a warm house most nights (some nights she insistent staying out in the bad weather), received nearly constant attention and exercise from dad and two active kids that had her by their side just about every afternoon. I'd love to have another fox that was even more predisposed towards people.
    oK... but woud you thank it ethical if highly evolved aliens took a human child from its natural inviroment an raized it as ther pet.???

    Like many people we didn't eat her, we buried her with a couple toys in the back yard. Most people don't eat their pets, so I don't know what that even has to do with the thread.

    Losin a pet is tuff... my dog dyed about 3 years ago.!!!

    But discussin the ethicacy of selective breedin of any animal (pet or not) is oK wit me in this thred.!!!

    I don't think the ethical arguments of past behaviors hold much water, slavery, human sacrifice and killing homosexuals would still be accepted if it was.
    im not sure what that "argument" is about.???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Your question has little to do with my point that tradition is not in it of itself strong argument for measuring ethics--regardless of your particular form of them.
    Okay. What is a strong argument to measure ethics, then?
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  22. #21  
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    I wouldn't know why the Aliens needed to breed me for food, nor would I have much say in it. If selectively breeding our pets is unethical, then what is your solution cluelesshusbund?
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  23. #22  
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    I think ethics are measured against the acceptable standards and context of their societies and the sub groups within that society. My individual ethics are born mostly out of my Catholic raising, military profession, and study of Secular Humanism and could be summarized as doing no unnecessary harm or suffering to other people or (so we get back on this thread), towards sentient animals. An implication to this is animals of higher sentience are entitled to more rights; a Bonobo would get more rights than a hamster; a human more than a bonobo etc. This is also why I think the alien scenario is very limited application even if we accept that an alien should practice anything akin to human ethics. On the other hand why should alien ethics be like humans? As first look, the alien scenario appears about as useful as arguing about whether alpha male and female worf pack leaders ethics should change because they're the only ones allowed to reproduce in their pack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    (so we get back on this thread)
    I think it was sort of on the thread topic. Clueluss keeps saying "Ah thank its unethical." Other people say "Ah don't thank it is." There isn't an objective standard, so the thread just goes around in circles. I agree with you about the wolf pack.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    (so we get back on this thread)
    I think it was sort of on the thread topic. Clueluss keeps saying "Ah thank its unethical." Other people say "Ah don't thank it is." There isn't an objective standard, so the thread just goes around in circles.
    You're right it was central to the original question and needed to be addressed. I see it now. I think I was worried it was going to broaden and sidetrack the discussion into a the huge area of ethics, leaving the questions of animal treatment far behind.
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  26. #25  
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    If we stopped breeding domestic animals, many of them would just go extinct. I have a rabbit, she is a Standard Rex, a French breed initially bred for a soft, fuzzy white fur for clothing. I have no intention of turning her into a hat, but she is not suited to living without human support. Instead she gets all the food she wants and gets to lounge around in an air conditioned home, there is no other way for her to survive.
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    Woud you consider it ethical for highly advanced aliens to selectively breed humans for food...???

    Quote Originally Posted by The-Ology View Post
    I wouldn't know why the Aliens needed to breed me for food, nor would I have much say in it.
    Nether do the animals we breed for food... an they dont have much "say in it" ether.!!!

    If selectively breeding our pets is unethical, then what is your solution cluelesshusbund?
    "Solution"???... im meerly pontin out that selectively breedin animals to suit our own needs is unethical... an this understandin will lead to mor empithy/compassion for animals.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I think ethics are measured against the acceptable standards and context of their societies and the sub groups within that society.
    Sure... ethics are unique to each individual.!!!

    "animals of higher sentience are entitled to more rights"
    Well... entitled or not... they get mor rights... an as you'r statment ponts out... even lower sentience animals have "rights"... jus fewer of 'em... which goes to my argument that its unethical for us to manipulate any animal to suit our needs.!!!

    This is also why I think the alien scenario is very limited application even if we accept that an alien should practice anything akin to human ethics. On the other hand why should alien ethics be like humans?
    You'r objections to the hypothetical scenerio involvin aliens is irrelevent... when we take a mor objective look at what we do to animals by putin ourselfs in the place of the animals we abuse... it becoms mor clear that its not ethical to take advantage of lesser evolved animals.!!!

    As first look, the alien scenario appears about as useful as arguing about whether alpha male and female worf pack leaders ethics should change because they're the only ones allowed to reproduce in their pack.
    That has nuthin to do wit the alien scenerio i gave... in which the alien is much mor evolved than the creature its takin advantage of.!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Clueluss keeps saying "Ah thank its unethical." Other people say "Ah don't thank it is." There isn't an objective standard, so the thread just goes around in circles.
    As i said earlier... individual ethics are unique... but i thank discussons such as this tend to influence people toward beter treetment of animals an i thank thats a good thang... dont you.???
    Last edited by cluelusshusbund; August 18th, 2011 at 10:23 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy View Post
    If we stopped breeding domestic animals, many of them would just go extinct.
    Yeah... i had druther dye off than be selectivly bread for food.!!!

    ...she is not suited to living without human support. Instead she gets all the food she wants and gets to lounge around in an air conditioned home, there is no other way for her to survive.
    Im hapy she has a nice home :-)
    Last edited by cluelusshusbund; August 18th, 2011 at 10:40 PM.
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  29. #28  
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    I think ethics are measured against the acceptable standards and context of their societies and the sub groups within that society.
    Sure... ethics are unique to each individual.!!!
    I didn't say that or even imply it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
    "animals of higher sentience are entitled to more rights"
    Well... entitled or not... they get mor rights... an as you'r statment ponts out... even lower sentience animals have "rights"... jus fewer of 'em... which goes to my argument that its unethical for us to manipulate any animal to suit our needs.!!!
    A gross exaggeration. That "some rights" could be the right not to be driven into extinction, or not to be tortured for hours before death etc.

    You'r objections to the hypothetical scenerio involvin aliens is irrelevent... when we take a mor objective look at what we do to animals by putin ourselfs in the place of the animals we abuse... it becoms mor clear that its not ethical to take advantage of lesser evolved animals.!!!
    Perhaps you should make well reasoned and logical arguments instead of making broad statement filled with logical fallacies, or contrived make be-leave scenarios about aliens in broken English.

    but i thank discussons such as this tend to influence people toward beter treetment of animals an i thank thats a good thang... dont you.???
    Not so far. In fact I'm hankering for a thick hamburger made from genetically modified bulls smothered with cheese from hormone fed cows right now. I'm half kidding. Seriously though you haven't made your case in the slightest and I'll agree with you once humans have affordable, nutritious and tasty artificial meat substitutes.

    Try harder.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Clueluss keeps saying "Ah thank its unethical." Other people say "Ah don't thank it is." There isn't an objective standard, so the thread just goes around in circles.
    As i said earlier... individual ethics are unique... but i thank discussons such as this tend to influence people toward beter treetment of animals an i thank thats a good thang... dont you.???
    No. I'm from the old school. I think people are people, and animals are animals. Nowadays it seems like a lot of people don't know the difference.

    Remember that movie Old Yeller? When Old Yeller got the hydrophobie, Travis had to shoot him. If you shot your sick dog like that now, the nosy neighbors would probably call the cops on you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    ...i thank discussons such as this tend to influence people toward beter treetment of animals an i thank thats a good thang... dont you.???
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    No.
    I was rong... i asumed my queston was retorical.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    I'm from the old school. I think people are people, and animals are animals. Nowadays it seems like a lot of people don't know the difference.
    Thanks... i now understan you'r position beter.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    When Old Yeller got the hydrophobie, Travis had to shoot him. If you shot your sick dog like that now, the nosy neighbors would probably call the cops on you.
    So true... which reminds me... used to you coud throw a feed-sack of unwanted puppies in the creek (like my brother in law woud do) an neighbors minded ther own dam bidness.!!!
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    You'r objections to the hypothetical scenerio involvin aliens is irrelevent... when we take a mor objective look at what we do to animals by putin ourselfs in the place of the animals we abuse... it becoms mor clear that its not ethical to take advantage of lesser evolved animals.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    Perhaps you should make well reasoned and logical arguments instead of making broad statement filled with logical fallacies, or contrived make be-leave scenarios about aliens..."
    Thats good advice for anybody... but i thank you avoided my hypothical scenerios about aliens for self servin reasons... ie... to avoid a mor objective look at what we do to animals.!!!
    -----------------

    ...but i thank discussons such as this tend to influence people toward beter treetment of animals an i thank thats a good thang... dont you.???

    Not so far.
    An no dout its mor than jus Harold who agrees wit you.!!!

    Try harder.
    Mor good general advice... but those who (publicaly) question that beter treetment of animals is a good thang... do my "hard" work for me :-)
    Last edited by cluelusshusbund; August 19th, 2011 at 09:48 AM.
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    I support this only if we're making them more delicious at the same time!

    For the record, I rank the value of human vs animal life quite cheaply. Given the numbers involved, a human life costs less than beer and I care more for a good beer than I do most people.

    That would be a subtle admission of alcoholism.

    Yes, I would eat soylent green as long as they get the flavouring just right and offer a wide variety of amusing shapes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rustypup View Post
    I support this only if we're making them more delicious at the same time!

    For the record, I rank the value of human vs animal life quite cheaply. Given the numbers involved, a human life costs less than beer and I care more for a good beer than I do most people.

    That would be a subtle admission of alcoholism.

    Yes, I would eat soylent green as long as they get the flavouring just right and offer a wide variety of amusing shapes.
    Kinda sad (the alchol part) but very funy post... welcom to the groop new person :-)
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    You'r objections to the hypothetical scenerio involvin aliens is irrelevent... when we take a mor objective look at what we do to animals by putin ourselfs in the place of the animals we abuse... it becoms mor clear that its not ethical to take advantage of lesser evolved animals.!!!
    Only repeating yourself isn't going to convince anyone. The alien argument is being rejected because you haven't even tried to establish any kind of philosophical or reasoned basis for the comparison. You haven't' argued why you think Aliens should have anything resembling the mental flexibility of humans; you haven't argued why their sensory perceptions, nutritional requirements, reproductive styles or anything else might lead to resemble human ethics even though every other intelligent species we actually do know about sense their environment, mate, eat different and have hard-wired or pseudo-cultural behaviors that resemble different ethics. In short you're anthropomorphizing a make-believe species which makes about as much sense as arguing about the color of bow tie your pet dog wants to wear to consummate nuptials with the bitch down the street. It's laughable but doesn't help your argument in the least.

    And now I'm wondering if you aspire to be a serious contributor to your own thread. This is the philosophy sub-forum where we expect an attempt at some reasoning.
    Also, please use a spelling checker, they are widely available and it makes things a lot easier to read.

    --
    For clarity, my core philosophy is somewhat different than Harold's position: "I think people are people, and animals are animals." I see humans as animals, just on the far end of a continuous intelligence spectrum, but in the middle on many other characteristics (e.g. diet, aggression, number of preferred mates etc.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    So true... which reminds me... used to you coud throw a feed-sack of unwanted puppies in the creek (like my brother in law woud do) an neighbors minded ther own dam bidness.!!!
    That's right. If your brother in law needs to drown a feed sack of puppies in the crick every once in a while, it sure aint none of my bidness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund View Post
    So true... which reminds me... used to you coud throw a feed-sack of unwanted puppies in the creek (like my brother in law woud do) an neighbors minded ther own dam bidness.!!!
    That's right. If your brother in law needs to drown a feed sack of puppies in the crick every once in a while, it sure aint none of my bidness.
    Yes we all have diferent ethics.!!!
    -------------

    You'r objections to the hypothetical scenerio involvin aliens is irrelevent... when we take a mor objective look at what we do to animals by putin ourselfs in the place of the animals we abuse... it becoms mor clear that its not ethical to take advantage of lesser evolved animals.!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox View Post
    The alien argument is being rejected because you haven't even tried to establish any kind of philosophical or reasoned basis for the comparison. You haven't' argued why you think Aliens should have anything resembling the mental flexibility of humans; you haven't argued why their sensory perceptions, nutritional requirements, reproductive styles or anything else might resemble human ethics even though every other intelligent species we actually do know about sence, mate, eat etc differently than humans. In short you're anthropomorphizing a make-believe species which makes about as much sense as arguing about the color of bow tie your pet dog wants to wear to consummate nuptials with the bitch down the street. It's laughable but doesn't help your argument in the least.
    Lots of people have trouble wit hypothetical situatons used in arguments... ie... the argument is not about aliens digestive system... etc... aliens are meerly used for the purpos of a hypothetical scenerio which allows us to put ourselfs in the place of the lower evolved animals we use for pets (food/experimentation... etc.) to give us a mor objective view of our ethics in the way we treet animals.!!!

    The below scenerio has hapened an i asume you agree its unethical.???

    To experiment on people wit drugs wit-out ther knowledge.???

    Heres a mor simple hypothetical scenerio (no aliens) you mite be able to answr:::

    Woud you thank it ethical if (wit-out ther knowledge) humans was selectivly bread for pets... or food.???


    I see humans as animals, just on the far end of a continuous spectrum intelligence, but in the middle on many other characteristics (e.g. diet, aggression, number of preferred mates etc.)
    Yes... an the animals we give the mos "rights" are the animals that apear to be the mos like us... an the less they apear to be like us the less "rights" we give them... but these fewer rights go at least as far down as insects... ie... mos people woud thank it unethical to pull the wings off a butterfly.!!!
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    In answer to the specific question "Do you thank its ethical to breed animals to be mor desirable as pets.???"

    I voted no - it is unethical.

    The experience - and plain example - I have is of seeing certain new dog breeds: shivering, hairless, bug-eyed pathetic runt creatures - and hearing the remark "Aw, isn't it cute?" I remind people that we've made the animal the way it is. We've taken an animal (species), rendered it helpless, made it ridiculous, and removed its dignity, so we can point to those man-made traits as cute or even funny. The traits "helpless" "ridiculous" "undignified" are real qualities some buyers enjoy seeing in animals they own; this drives the breeding.

    I am not sure why I find this unethical. Perhaps I'm disturbed that people support the creation of ever-more pathetic animals (through selection) while ignoring that they are responsible for making the animal pathetic. So perhaps it's just the ignorance. Or that collectively we may do guiltlessly what as individuals we would cringe at. That would tie in with war & sanctions - things I also have trouble with.

    Is it cruelty to animals? Suppose I aquire a normal wolf pup I want to embody those sad lap-dog traits: So I feed it a diet to stunt its growth, pay for operations to distort its face, partially amputate its hind legs so it scoots around the kitchen floor on cutely squeeking wheels, where does it end? All I've done really is what dog breeders do over generations. If I reward the breeders, what's the difference?


    My animal ethics is informed by cattle ranching: There is no equivalence between humans and animals... animals must suffer for our gain, fine, but if a human takes pleasure in an animal's suffering, that is sick. And I'm pretty sensitive to that. I see some pet breeds are guaranteed to suffer, by design, only for our amusement.
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    Ethics, schmethics. Pah.

    In my view, whoever has the capacity to do these things, can. If a cat or a dog decided to put me in a cage and poke around at my insides for a while, well then, that's perfectly just. They obviously would have had harvested the power and developed (or at least learned how to use) the technology to do such a thing. As humans, we have developed all this incredible technology because we are such an "advanced" (in some ways, anyway) species. So, I feel we have the right to use it.
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    I'm pretty sure dogs wouldn't exist without human tampering, simply wild Jackal animals in Egypt where the first dogs were bred and the common variety wolf, canines aren't really "dogs".
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheesepole View Post
    Ethics, schmethics. Pah.

    In my view, whoever has the capacity to do these things, can. If a cat or a dog decided to put me in a cage and poke around at my insides for a while, well then, that's perfectly just.
    For esample:::

    Shoud dog fights an cock fights be legal entertainment.???
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370 View Post
    No. I'm from the old school. I think people are people, and animals are animals. Nowadays it seems like a lot of people don't know the difference.
    Generally, I think it makes sense for humans to use/exploit animals, for our own benefit, altho' I am much less happy if any of these activities cause the animals to experience pain.
    Also I don't believe it is irrelevant, or silly, to mention a hypothetical scenario, about aliens, here. If, in the future, we did come into contact with an alien species, intrinsically more intelligent than ourselves, it might be difficult to produce a moral argument against being used or exploited by them.
    After all, it is only our intelligence that gives us the ability (right?) to exploit other species.
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