Thread: Our identity

"The true basis for our identity is our membership in a species interconnected with all other species---Far more universal than race, gender, ethnicity or anything partial and restricted. To evolve creatively, humans need to have a sense of belonging that unites them with all other humans in their natural habitats."

I thought this was very well put and wanted to share it with you all. It is off a tag from a clothing company called "Wear First" (or First Wear).

Feel free to comment but, I mainly just put it here for show and tell.

our identiy of us is genetical programmed and is controlled by a special center of the brain, it tells us what is us and what is not. but creativity develop when the brain is exposed to continus challanges. with other species this do not accure.

Yes, Dabob , I agree with that corporate, but beautiful , and true statement. I feel that our conscious, our being, the self ,the ego ,the essence of "we", permeates the entire temporal universe. We are the universe! Just as neutrinos seem to permeant all of space and zip through stars planets and all things temporal without even slowing down, so does our soul, our thoughts, and our being.

One interpretation of the collapse of the wave function (QFT= quantum field theory) and quantum entanglement tells us that everything from muons, to photons, are casually connected and can communicate (for lack of a better word) faster than light information. Ah' yes that is THE most important revelation from God enhanced science in this century or I would say millennia! (Hmmm' God enhanced science, did I see some secular hyena ears pick up?)

Good stuff huh, this QFT example is more than profound it how we are we. It is how and why we are the universe, and ultimately it is why we are all part of God, and why by harm (sin) we only commit suicide in nano degrees. It is why Jesus Christ told us to love one another, its the only way to stop the destruction of our universe.

I like the way you think DaBOB, its a blend of eastern and western style, and if you do anything well it must be done with style..hmmm...that doesnt make much sense...sorta like QFT upon first glance....


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yea got to edit it...almost my basset is beaming basset I gotta pee dog waves directly into my cortex...fin it soon the REV

Originally Posted by Zelos

our identiy of us is genetical programmed and is controlled by a special center of the brain, it tells us what is us and what is not. but creativity develop when the brain is exposed to continus challanges. with other species this do not accure.

This may also be true. I personally think our Identity goes much deaper than genetics though.

Originally Posted by REV ROSWELL

I like the way you think DaBOB, its a blend of eastern and western style, and if you do anything well it must be done with style..hmmm...that doesnt make much sense...sorta like QFT upon first glance....

有難うございます。 Your computer may not read that.

Thank you. Yes I love eastern philosophy and art and culture etc. But, I am a 100% American. I am still a student but, with the understanding of QFT that I have I deffinately agree about how it is a very important revelation, and one that most scientists will not deny.

how can "us" be something like that? so every living bieng is like that? when did this all stuff blabla evolve?

one thing, when those centers are damaged physical/genetical ppl dont see themselves as them. its like ure holding boh ur arms infront of the person and also holdings his/hhers arm and ask "whos hand is this" and u get the answer "its your hand" this is cases that have been documented and happened. they dont know whats them and what isnt.

one thing, when those centers are damaged physical/genetical ppl dont see themselves as them. its like ure holding boh ur arms infront of the person and also holdings his/hhers arm and ask "whos hand is this" and u get the answer "its your hand" this is cases that have been documented and happened. they dont know whats them and what isnt.

hI ZELOS , dAbob...My subjective opinion (come to think about it all opinions are subjective). When the brain is damaged by age, organic agents, etc., I feel that Elvis has left the building, or your universe, because his device for interacting in YOUR world has been altered, and therefor exists in a domain where access is denied so to speak. It is the inability of your mind brain to communicate with his universe.

The brain mind combo may be a quantum computer like processor, I suspect it is but haven't had time to review the thousands of sites and books that have elaborated on this fascinating, tantalizing idea. I am now attempting to blunder through some classes on "basic" QFT, that is enough to give me an eternal head ache wrought by indulgence in the extraordinary universe that we were created for, the universe that was created for us, its all the same, in or outside time.

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Yeah its late and I am having continuing log on problems with this site, so my responses will be limited until I resolve the problem ...

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In my humble opinion the mind must be separate to the brain. The mind is your personality, your uniqueness, your humanity, the brain is the nerve centre for the body.

they are both the same. YOU are merly only synaptic pathways in the brain

:? but what are our thoughts??

is it the combination of cells.. our memories.. everything that happened to us??

to even start to understand the brain we must at least know where it all started.. not a YESNOYESNOYESYESYES system like a computer..

if we can't even understand why a fly does what he does we can never understand ourself. for that we must create something smarter bigger better and more usefull than ourself...

y? the brain is complicted enough to understand itself, but that is of course its biggest task

its not like YES/NO, rather SEND/SEND NOT. when a celll isnt stimulated throu a synapse that synapse wither and connect to another cell, and so on until its connected in a way that is suitible for the situation.
our thoughts are a electrochemical current going throu the synatpic pathways in specefic ways that is effected by all other pathways, wich in turn is effected by what have happened, and as that signal goes it will eventual reach a action or stop or something.

i know the theory, i just don't know how that all can lead to a concous.

i visualise everything if it "could" be possible. but i can't get it in my head to create a concious with cells that are connected with synapses, axons etc.

I know the bacteria "thoughts". All it tells them is to "survive & multiply". It reacts to all chemicals that are around it. When there are proteines, it'll produce protease, when there are antibiotics, it'll create (if it can) a sheath around it to protect itself. Or release enzymes that change antibiotics to a nutrigen (like pseudomonas).

indeed, the brain is complicated enough, but what parts of the brain control the connection between the senses, the chemical / hormonal system, and the reaction and concious system. It has to be combined to ever produce a concious.

Humans are "from nature" selfaware of some things, like that it can see with it's eyes (being very carefull with them), don't eat bitter things (poison), that it hates snakes and big predators (and they hate us).

This goes deeper than a concious, maybe they are connected to the concious part to our subconcious part (wherever that might be). It is not a part of our instinct though, because we can not teach us to like bitterness or don't be afraid of big predators. Like we can with instincts, fears of the predators might always be there, but we can use our instincts to take different acts. Where might that synapse be?? is it a connector that we ignore (so a cell get's activated while another one get's inactivated).

WeIrD

Originally Posted by Zwolver

i know the theory, i just don't know how that all can lead to a concous.

its not a theory its fact. how this kind of synapses work in more detail is bieng explored. You can create a primitive vomputer counsius with this, NOTICE PRIMETIVE I MEAN REAL PRIMITIVE.
as we understand their work better we can simulate it easier

Originally Posted by DaBOB

"The true basis for our identity is our membership in a species interconnected with all other species---Far more universal than race, gender, ethnicity or anything partial and restricted. To evolve creatively, humans need to have a sense of belonging that unites them with all other humans in their natural habitats."

I thought this was very well put and wanted to share it with you all. It is off a tag from a clothing company called "Wear First" (or First Wear).

Feel free to comment but, I mainly just put it here for show and tell.

Well, I think, and for what I've been reading here, humans cannot be reduced only to the biological. We are social beings and from it comes our identity, and identity forged and sustained maily by language, sharing of symbols, signs, in cultural practices and social networks.

I was wondering.. what would happen to a child who has been abandoned, never had contact with other humans and never learnt any language? would he have a conscious of a "self" or an "I" versus the conception of a person we have, of an individual. Then this wild child, so to call it, would not have identity and I really doubt he would recognize when seeing it, another human being. What do you think?

Well I am assuming that this child will be lucky enough (if you call it luck) to servive long enough to be able to come to an idea of self. Humans are very smart. Even if this child had no education it would still be remarkably smart (esspecialy if it servived for a long time). My guess would be that this child would be very confused as to it's identity and search out more humans. If for some reason there were no other humans than... wow... Who knows??

Good question.

Originally Posted by DaBOB

I personally think our Identity goes much deaper than genetics

life essence? a being from the energy we came from? god???? woooo

zelos wrote

its not a theory its fact. how this kind of synapses work in more detail is bieng explored. You can create a primitive vomputer counsius with this, NOTICE PRIMETIVE I MEAN REAL PRIMITIVE.
as we understand their work better we can simulate it easier

The very fact that it is being explored would indicate that some one realises that there is more to learn, and who knows what that will turn up. So it is still a theory and being worked on.

Well, I think, and for what I've been reading here, humans cannot be reduced only to the biological. We are social beings and from it comes our identity, and identity forged and sustained mainly by language, sharing of symbols, signs, in cultural practices and social networks.

We are interconnected (casually) connected to every living thing in the universe. We are less strongly connected to the inorganic things in all the universe. Just as a electron is in superposition until observed so we are the same.

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Yeah, I'm backkkkkkk' having reanimated my HP to nearly supercomputer status, well compared to what it was before it became sick with a worm and a bot or two thousand.

So it is still a theory and being worked on.

You are correct and Zelos is incorrect, it is still very much a theory and a bad one at that!

It is so bad that it damn near takes an act of faith to accept it. No, its worse than that, it demands a programmable, feeble mind that is partial to the commands of a central , untruthful and harmful authority!

A couple of hundred blank lines edited out. Rev,if they had a function accept my apology, but they appeared to be taking up space with no net gain in information content. Ophiolite.
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WOW!!

Zelos, if you think that the paintings of Monet are nothing more than splashes of pigment applied to a canvas, then your description of identity as a product of the synapses alone is accurate.

I have always thought art was a little more than that - even Monet.

And Dali's work raises questions that may not be answered for a hundred years, or perhaps another millenium.

Rev, we are our brain, when it dies our identty dies

and yes i dont consider art high, its pigments on a board for me.

Bieng connected to all other biengs? thats just silly. How would that interacting take place and with what particle, is it FTL speed communication? if so then its dismissed on the very spot. How does the brain then disyfer this particla data that goes from one individual to another? what kind of biochemical reaction would be able to to detect this particles and their information? what information do they contain?

Originally Posted by Zelos

Bieng connected to all other biengs? thats just silly.

I shall send you a draft of the e-mail I shall dispatch to all those working in the field of biology, with an interest in ecology explaining that they are quite mistaken and are wasting their time.

Originally Posted by Zelos

Bieng connected to all other biengs? thats just silly. How would that interacting take place and with what particle, is it FTL speed communication? if so then its dismissed on the very spot. How does the brain then disyfer this particla data that goes from one individual to another? what kind of biochemical reaction would be able to to detect this particles and their information? what information do they contain?

Originally Posted by Jim Al-Khalili

What is of interest here is that nonlocality has been shown beyond any doubt to exist in the quantum world, through an effect known as entanglment... Physicists are no longer in any doubt that instintaneous communication between distant objects, or nonlocality, is a general feature of the quantum world.

From "Quantum: A Guide for the Perplexed" First published in 2003.
Please note that any spelling errors are most likely mine and not the authors.

Also, a link to wiki if you truly have not heard of this phenomena.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlocal

I am surprised so few people know of this.

Originally Posted by Ophiolite

Originally Posted by Zelos

Bieng connected to all other biengs? thats just silly.

I shall send you a draft of the e-mail I shall dispatch to all those working in the field of biology, with an interest in ecology explaining that they are quite mistaken and are wasting their time.

thats different, they are connected as a food chain.

FTL is still forbidden according to physics and scientists are trying to figure out if its reall FTL its about or if its something else. But still answer all those questions are we can begin talking. And also when we talk ORGANISMS quantum effects are negible and have very little with everyday life of organisms(direcly)

They have everything to do with everyday life. Just by thinking something you are effecting the entire quantum world.

Maybe this has something to do with the reason why Buddhists train 'right thought'. A simple thought can truly have an effect on not just yourself but the entire world. Isn't it funny that some dude could figure that out thousands of years ago while sitting under a tree. He would have made a great scientist.

Also, I don't think people are understanding this. Nonlocality is not faster-than-light it is instintaneous. Meaning there is no speed involved. So why is that so hard to believe. Plus is says right there in the quote (because I knew you wouldn't beieve me) that physicists have no doubt that it does in fact exist.

Originally Posted by Zelos

thats different, they are connected as a food chain.

They are connected by vastly more than a food chain. If you can see only this connection between organisms then you need to devote a little more time to the study of biology. the predator-prey relationship is a small part of the mutual influence, direct and indirect, of organisms.
The climate, the weather, the current state of plate tectonics, the composition of the oceans and the atmosphere, the topography, sedimentary environments, soils, etc are all effected by and effect in their turn organisms. The food chain aspect of these inter-relationships is almost incidental.

Maybe this has something to do with the reason why Buddhists train 'right thought'. A simple thought can truly have an effect on not just yourself but the entire world. Isn't it funny that some dude could figure that out thousands of years ago while sitting under a tree. He would have made a great scientist.

Im thinking you shall die, if you post your idea is a flaw becuase youre not dead yet

The climate, the weather, the current state of plate tectonics, the composition of the oceans and the atmosphere, the topography, sedimentary environments, soils, etc are all effected by and effect in their turn organisms. The food chain aspect of these inter-relationships is almost incidental.

partly, but the physical world is less effected by life, but i agree on that once life is on a plpanet the planet undergoes great transformation chemical, but physical, such as tekntonic isnt effected. Weather is little but mostly not effected. Life have some effect on climate yes, but its mostly life that adepts to climate not reverse

Originally Posted by Zelos

partly, but the physical world is less effected by life, but i agree on that once life is on a plpanet the planet undergoes great transformation chemical, but physical, such as tekntonic isnt effected. Weather is little but mostly not effected. Life have some effect on climate yes, but its mostly life that adepts to climate not reverse

This is so utterly wrong that I shall take some time to respond to it properly. In the meantime you might wish to reconsider your errant conclusions in the matter.

Originally Posted by Zelos

Maybe this has something to do with the reason why Buddhists train 'right thought'. A simple thought can truly have an effect on not just yourself but the entire world. Isn't it funny that some dude could figure that out thousands of years ago while sitting under a tree. He would have made a great scientist.

Im thinking you shall die, if you post your idea is a flaw becuase youre not dead yet

You are very silly. I said "A simple thought can truly have an effect on not just yourself but the entire world". I did not say that a thought can cause a desired effect. In fact there have been many experiments on telekinetics using REGs (Random Event Generators). Most of the time when men do them, while they do cause a significant effect, the effect is opposite the intention.

The REGs spit out random 1 or 0. The subject tries to force either the 1 or the 0 to occur more often.

May I ask why you are avoiding (which it appears you are) my original point. That being that phisicists do in fact have evidence that the entire universe is connected in a way that does not require time. Again it is called nonlocality. The main phenomena that attributes to it is known as entanglement. Please look it up if you have not heard of it. It is quite fascinating.

It is believed that this may hold the answer to how twins can know about eachothers feelings (from a distance) or how animals can have such powerful senses (especially dogs and their owners). Some may even call it love. Maybe it is more promanant when the thinking mind is shut down. For example during meditation. Hmm... I think I will start meditating, it can't hurt (thinking out loud).

im playing with you guys, atleast with the part of you bieng dead.

the twin thing do i explain simple, they know each other so well that they can in the subconcius partly predict how the other one will feel during situations.

This is so utterly wrong that I shall take some time to respond to it properly. In the meantime you might wish to reconsider your errant conclusions in the matter.

i agreed on something, give me a good explination how they would effect some of the others and i´ll agree on that aswell

Originally Posted by Zelos

im playing with you guys, atleast with the part of you bieng dead.

the twin thing do i explain simple, they know each other so well that they can in the subconcius partly predict how the other one will feel during situations.

You still don't understand. It is not only how the twins feel but, they actually know about the situations they are in. For example if one twin gets badly hurt ina car accident the other will get an imediate feeling.

I say again.

Originally Posted by DaBOB

May I ask why you are avoiding (which it appears you are) my original point. That being: that phisicists do in fact have evidence that the entire universe is connected in a way that does not require time. Again it is called nonlocality. The main phenomena that attributes to it is known as entanglement. Please look it up if you have not heard of it. It is quite fascinating.

thats a coincident. or maybe just a lie. You cant tell if the twin acctualy feels it or if its just saying it to make headlines and a story

Originally Posted by DaBOB

You still don't understand. It is not only how the twins feel but, they actually know about the situations they are in. For example if one twin gets badly hurt ina car accident the other will get an imediate feeling.

This is always anecdotal. Show me a double blind study where twin abilities are put to the test and maybe there'd be reason to believe it

i concure, if its so special then they should also be able to use twins who are genetical twins but were seperated from birth into different famielies and have never meet

WOW!!! I give up.

I have given you the current scientific explanation that is excepted by today's physicists. Why do you keep ignoring it. The only reason I gave the example of the twins was to help you understand the concept that I was trying to explain. I could care less for the twins. The point is that we are all connected and physicists have found a way to explain this (called nonlocality and quantum entanglement). If you are going to act like I'm not saying anything than I will stop. I'm not going to waste my time. Either listen or don't.

If you have reason to suggest that these modern theories are false than please do so. If you are going to continue ignoring it than you are not worth my time.

I have given you the current scientific explanation that is excepted by today's physicists

Remind me - what exactly are you claiming that entanglement is an accepted scientific explanation FOR?

for me to belive that i demand complete mathematical explination, and the biological ways of disphering that information, its carrier particle, etc. Provide it and i listen. Until then i consider it hippie bullshit

This is a direct qoute from the last page.

Originally Posted by DaBOB

Originally Posted by Zelos

Bieng connected to all other biengs? thats just silly. How would that interacting take place and with what particle, is it FTL speed communication? if so then its dismissed on the very spot. How does the brain then disyfer this particla data that goes from one individual to another? what kind of biochemical reaction would be able to to detect this particles and their information? what information do they contain?

Originally Posted by Jim Al-Khalili

What is of interest here is that nonlocality has been shown beyond any doubt to exist in the quantum world, through an effect known as entanglment... Physicists are no longer in any doubt that instintaneous communication between distant objects, or nonlocality, is a general feature of the quantum world.

From "Quantum: A Guide for the Perplexed" First published in 2003.
Please note that any spelling errors are most likely mine and not the authors.

Also, a link to wiki if you truly have not heard of this phenomena.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlocal

I am surprised so few people know of this.

I also just wrote this.

Originally Posted by DaBOB

The point is that we are all connected and physicists have found a way to explain this (called nonlocality and quantum entanglement)

zelos I am sorry I made the assumtion that you were up to date on these things. I am sorry but, I am not a phisicist and while I probably could find the 'mathmatical' data for you it would make very little sense to me and I would likely not present it properly. As you can tell when things are not presented properly here they are twisted in many directions and get us no where. I would ask that you look this up on your own if you are truly interested.

Originally Posted by Neutrino

Remind me - what exactly are you claiming that entanglement is an accepted scientific explanation FOR?

This is a direct qoute from the last page. Figure it out.

Originally Posted by DaBOB

Originally Posted by Zelos

Bieng connected to all other biengs? thats just silly. How would that interacting take place and with what particle, is it FTL speed communication? if so then its dismissed on the very spot. How does the brain then disyfer this particla data that goes from one individual to another? what kind of biochemical reaction would be able to to detect this particles and their information? what information do they contain?

Originally Posted by Jim Al-Khalili

What is of interest here is that nonlocality has been shown beyond any doubt to exist in the quantum world, through an effect known as entanglment... Physicists are no longer in any doubt that instintaneous communication between distant objects, or nonlocality, is a general feature of the quantum world.

From "Quantum: A Guide for the Perplexed" First published in 2003.
Please note that any spelling errors are most likely mine and not the authors.

Also, a link to wiki if you truly have not heard of this phenomena.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonlocal

I am surprised so few people know of this.

I also just wrote this.

Originally Posted by DaBOB

The point is that we are all connected and physicists have found a way to explain this (called nonlocality and quantum entanglement)

zelos I am sorry I made the assumtion that you were up to date on these things. I am sorry but, I am not a phisicist and while I probably could find the 'mathmatical' data for you it would make very little sense to me and I would likely not present it properly. As you can tell when things are not presented properly here they are twisted in many directions and get us no where. I would ask that you look this up on your own if you are truly interested.

yeah yeah yeah its a simple explination that we dont yet know what causes it, if its after it happen, with FTL, or before with STL but is not noticble until later. But if it uses FTL the even wich its effected by havent happened yet

Yeah I saw where you said we're "connected" to all other beings. But what the heck is that supposed to mean? I'm "connected" to damn near anything I choose depending on what I mean by connected.

ok, maybe you don't know what quantum entanglement is.

When the superposition of one thing (be it subatomic or macroscopic) interacts with another thing's superposition.

Have you heard of Schrodinger's cat? It is a good example of what I am trying to explain.

When a probability (or wace function) becomes reality (particle) it effects the outcome of every other probabiliy (wave function) in the universe. Speed is not necessary for this interaction. I am not sure why you keep bringing up the topic of speed. For example: You are going from A to B and I step on B. No time (or speed) is required for the universe to accept that point B is taken and you can not go there. I have effected your outcome without touching you (sort of like chess in a way).

This phenomena connects us all at the quantum level. What I think effects some alien on another galaxy. This does not mean I am using telekinesis, it simply means it has an effect.

How about this. We know that we can have the exact same particle in two places at once right? This is called superposition. If everything requires speed than wouldn't this particle have to be going back and forth really fast. The answer is no, because no speed is involved. NO SPEEEEEED!!!!!

I am not sure I can explain it any further. Either you get it or you don't.

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do you ever feel like your talking to a brick wall.

SchrÖdinger's cat
with a Ö not a O (im mean now )
yes i know it. If i am correct it says you dont know the outcome of the experiment until you look and therefor the cat is both dead and alive by superposition

When a probability (or wace function) becomes reality (particle) it effects the outcome of every other probabiliy (wave function) in the universe.

so what ever that causes this interaction is moving with infinite speed? wow cool, do you think we can talk with aliens this way maybe you are right, until further i wont say you are right, but i wont either say that you are completly wrong

Originally Posted by Zelos

SchrÖdinger's cat
with a Ö not a O (im mean now )
yes i know it. If i am correct it says you dont know the outcome of the experiment until you look and therefor the cat is both dead and alive by superposition

Sort of. Gas is releaced into the chamber with the cat. Before which that cat will most deffinately be alive. Once the gas is releaced though, the cat all of the sudden gains a new probability, with out the interaction of speed. It is weird, you are making me think of this differently.

Originally Posted by Zelos

Originally Posted by DaBOB

When a probability (or wave function) becomes reality (particle) it effects the outcome of every other probabiliy (wave function) in the universe.

so what ever that causes this interaction is moving with infinite speed? wow cool, do you think we can talk with aliens this way maybe you are right, until further i wont say you are right, but i wont either say that you are completly wrong

I guess the way I think of it is more like: If a particular outcome has happened it causes another outcome to either appear or disapear.

If speed is a factor then: if you could slow it down the cat could in fact be dead and alive. :? :? Man I'm confused now. Well anyways, I think you get it.