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Thread: Was God All There Once Was?

  1. #1 Was God All There Once Was? 
    Time Lord zinjanthropos's Avatar
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    If I'm God then what did I, or do I require to exist? Nothing? Something?

    Do I need intelligence? Do I need someplace to exist in? Life? Magical powers?

    Assuming I always was then I have no need of being created but where did I get all the stuff I needed to be God? Could I have been a nothing existing nowhere just to create something plus somewhere to put it?

    There doesn't appear to be any prerequisites for a God's existence. Everything God needs to exist is already there. Does that mean God did not create everything? If God always was then the concept of nothing is moot. One thing, God must be something if He is to exist. Until everything we are familiar with came about God was the only thing, period. Or was He?


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  3. #2  
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    God had a silver spoon and a trillion tons of talent, all from nowhere, thus all undeserved, so he resigned from being the Big Boss, for he was ever so humble.

    God is but a figment of the imagination. He never was.


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  4. #3  
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    Quote Originally Posted by questor
    God is but a figment of the imagination. He never was.
    An imagination is all that's required for believers but surely if God always was then a lot of other stuff is likewise categorized. If God always was then where was He? He had to be somewhere, so His residential space must have always been. This is convenient but there is no way God created it. Nor did He create Himself.
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    It all started and will end with a Teapot.
    Meteorologist/Naturalist & Retired Soldier
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  6. #5  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    It all started and will end with a Teapot.
    This is the only post made this year (so far) with which I am in complete agreement.
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  7. #6  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Fox
    It all started and will end with a Teapot.
    At least a teapot has been observed from time to time.... Me, the gourd came first.
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  8. #7 Re: Was God All There Once Was? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    If I'm God then what did I, or do I require to exist? Nothing? Something?

    Do I need intelligence? Do I need someplace to exist in? Life? Magical powers?

    Assuming I always was then I have no need of being created but where did I get all the stuff I needed to be God? Could I have been a nothing existing nowhere just to create something plus somewhere to put it?

    There doesn't appear to be any prerequisites for a God's existence. Everything God needs to exist is already there. Does that mean God did not create everything? If God always was then the concept of nothing is moot. One thing, God must be something if He is to exist. Until everything we are familiar with came about God was the only thing, period. Or was He?
    You must remember that time is an attribute of our world. Space is viewed today as a mathematical abstraction known as a tensor field that ascribes a tensor to each point in space. Albert Einstein has shown through his theories of special and general relativity that space and time are a four-dimensional continuum that are curved by mass and energy (which are essentially the same quantity).

    Therefore, if God created our world, than he developed time as well, making an explanatory discourse on "when was God created" relatively pointless.

    We can understand our world and get a glimpse into the mind of God but not with the depth of understanding that God possesses.
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  9. #8 Re: Was God All There Once Was? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    If I'm God then what did I, or do I require to exist? Nothing? Something?

    Do I need intelligence? Do I need someplace to exist in? Life? Magical powers?

    Assuming I always was then I have no need of being created but where did I get all the stuff I needed to be God? Could I have been a nothing existing nowhere just to create something plus somewhere to put it?

    There doesn't appear to be any prerequisites for a God's existence. Everything God needs to exist is already there. Does that mean God did not create everything? If God always was then the concept of nothing is moot. One thing, God must be something if He is to exist. Until everything we are familiar with came about God was the only thing, period. Or was He?

    The answer is simple. If you are God, take a look at this forum....elevate them on every level they offer, and then stay out of reach. Ask them what they think about that......
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    A mind is a system and thus cannot be fundamental in itself. So, no God.

    We do have some smart people on this forum, though, and that's where composite complexity is to be found, here and upwards, not downward at the simpler states beneath atoms.
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    Worse yet, the basis of what is (stuff) cannot go to infinite regress, it being forever there, or else causes and effects would take forever to work their way up; they don't, so, there was no creation, and thus no Creator. This cuts out all types of Gods at the source. Only imagination, wishes, and dreams remain.
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  12. #11 Re: Was God All There Once Was? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellatha
    Therefore, if God created our world, than he developed time as well, making an explanatory discourse on "when was God created" relatively pointless.
    Always was is not about the creation of God. The word was in itself implicates time. You suggest that God came before time, in that He "existed" prior to being able to exist, as we understand it. I was hoping to avoid this because the road is open to God dwelling in the incomprehensible world again and no believer can possibly know this. I have a hard enough time believing in a god and now I have to believe there is some other way to exist without time involved.

    God is like time in a way. He exists like the future exists.
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    It would take time even to invent time.

    'God' is merely a pronouncement, of an ungrounded belief, no less, and, of such, is of no consequence whatsoever.

    You will continue to believe and pronounce 'God', however, because the notion has been grooved into your brain wiring. Internal feelings of imaginary invisibles do not produce reality. Many more layers will then be structured upon 'God', such as what he wants, what he does, and what he says, but it is all just a house of cards built upon a wish.
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    Quote Originally Posted by questor
    You will continue to believe and pronounce 'God', however, because the notion has been grooved into your brain wiring.
    By the way Questor, don't get fooled by what you read. If you think I'm a theist then you are sadly mistaken. My wiring is just fine.

    I don't think I like the notion of God always was because that does imply the necessity of time and opens the door to the incomprehensible realm of existence. So if I said God just is does it sound more credible?
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    Notions that pertain to an imaginary invisible that can't be shown can't have any credibility since they are but imagined, and so are ungrounded. 'God' is not an answer to anything, but merely a larger question, rendering all beyond repair. If 'what is' is rejected in the first place, why then propose exactly the same for 'God is' in the second place?
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  16. #15  
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    Here's some 'fun':

    For the Super Heavyweight Championship of the Universe:
    God vs. Science (The Vanishing of God)


    R o u n d 1

    In the beginning… God played an active role in the universe, after creating it, each and every verse, and especially one upon the earth… Which is supposedly only a few thousand years old, or so it has been told.

    God won this round, hands down, for even those many science clowns at the time thought that man was prime, being the special center of creation and that the sun and the stars, in elation, revolved around his nation… And, furthermore, that evil spirits caused physical ills along with all of our mental ills, as aggravated by life’s frills—which were all called ‘sins’ that somehow still came from within.

    Even fun was one of sin’s evil cousins, for the Bible was made of old Jewish legends. Thankfully, those hundreds of odd gods who had come to reign before God were crushed and by Jehovah trod. However, about three centuries ago, the realm of natural law was extended, so, the supernatural kingdom began to shrink away, some, eventually vanishing from all of existence, but, we get ahead of our own persistence…

    God made Adam fully formed, without a navel; but, now, an asterisk on page one of the Philippine Catholic Bible says “no”, to not take it literally; it’s just not so.


    R o u n d 2

    God came out quick, still claiming the writ that he guided the Earth safe through its orbit around the the centered sun in space, his ‘son’, for by now the Earth’s motion around the sun was known to be true to nearly everyone. Newton demolished this notion with his laws of motion. God thus no longer ruled nature’s course, for the world was free to run its course.

    From Isaac (Newton): Laws and Revelations: there is a mote in space known as earth, a pale blue dot of fluff orbiting a hearth… Due but to Newton’s laws of motion, there’s none—no Godly hand guiding it safe around the sun. The vanishing had now really begun. The heavens and the earth were one. Stars and galaxies went on and on, puffing, and we became the center of nothing. God was losing his definition in stone, as his sworn traits disappeared, one by one. So, he’s retreated to higher ground, that is, outside of space, time, and all that exists.

    (to be con't, through 8 rounds)
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  17. #16  
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    Quote Originally Posted by questor
    It would take time even to invent time.

    'God' is merely a pronouncement, of an ungrounded belief, no less, and, of such, is of no consequence whatsoever.

    You will continue to believe and pronounce 'God', however, because the notion has been grooved into your brain wiring. Internal feelings of imaginary invisibles do not produce reality. Many more layers will then be structured upon 'God', such as what he wants, what he does, and what he says, but it is all just a house of cards built upon a wish.
    The circularity of your reasoning is self-evident.
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    R o u n d 3

    God so then claimed to appear to us only in spiritual thoughts and ideas, thus, making him responsible, as our Savior, for the goodness of human behavior. This metaphor was then found to be unnecessary as the source of human character non-contrarily; yet, some still clung to the life-line ropes of his intervention, with their hopes, although some claimed that he did not involve himself, or be, in our daily operations and pleas.

    So, god no longer intercedes in causes, except in some nebulous cures and “becauses”, as being safe from harm, or curing what hears, but, he never heals amputees, or appears. For the latest is that he must stay hidden, even if the “miracles” of his son, bidden, were very much out in the open to see; better that no one know of him clearly. So there is “faith”—a blind trust in the unknown. Believe it or be tortured—or has this, too, the word of God, become inoperable? Only the supernatural realm remains.


    R o u n d 4

    God was still yet “seen” to intervene here, saving lives, here and there, in the natural world’s reality, but, too, striking planes from the sky, ever adjusting and smoothing the operations of natural law, expressing his inscrutable purpose. However, scientific knowledge, cosmology, fundamental physics, chemistry, biology, anthropology, and psychology were wont to undermine religious views on every front. God was losing his strength to be, for science loomed large, quite ponderously.


    Religious knowledge, without proof, that which professes absolute truth, now fails and fades, an impossibility, while science, which professes fallibility, succeeds and grows stronger daily. There were still those strange myths… Why is the Old Testament out of the pew, in many churches, in favor of the new? Was it divine revelation or not? Do God’s fits not become a good role model?
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    It would take time even to invent time.

    This means that the above doesn't happen.
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    R o u n d 5

    With God in full retreat, it was yet thought that at least he had instilled or wrought a spiritual essence in us willed, whole, that which was called the “soul”. What vanity to claim such full self-importance! to demand so much from the universe… That one would claim an angelic vapor that drives a living being, provides character, morality, and consciousness, on top of a burdensome, fragile, and expensive organ such as a brain not needing to be used? science collapsed the idea of the elan vital when the synthesis of substance began. Life’s chemistry was of chemicals!

    Yet, it was still said that God made all the kinds, albeit strangely full of the problematic signs of such an unintelligent design, for how else could it all have been consigned? Darwin told us how natural selection explained the mysteries of evolution and of the variety of life covering creation… Extending from animals to us, a continuum, now even seen to go back to a bacterium. We were no longer special at all, as such, differing from chimps by not very much. The discovery of genetics later on collaborated it all in our genome.

    So, because of evolution’s record written God’s Bible was no longer seen as written in plain text for the common man, but is open to symbolics and interpretation. Thus, now, he just is, the same as the universe, and, yet, this would be a kind of curse, for this state would be quite restrictive… Not to mention the mere tautology of a universe, a cosmos, and an entity being one and the same pose, such as a rose is a rose is a rose.

    Since the above cannot be, he’s now become but a Deity, leaving us all on our own, our own life to own, the same as the nonreliance that is seen by science; now we’re fully sentient, but a planned, random accident! Aye, the truth of what now we are is: we’re not made direct, by a wiz, to take a quiz, but as mammal, organic, of speciation—one passing narcissism and self-adulation, onto the bio-electro-chemical organism evolved upon a planet near a star, risen of and in the long and winding mindless way of slow time, dust, and selection by death that sifts the best from the rest: evolution’s breath.
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  21. #20  
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    I think this is going to end with God losing by a Technical Knockout.
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    according to almost all major religions existence began with chaos.

    look up 'nu' and 'tiamat'.

    the gods evolved afterward from the chaos.
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    R o u n d 6

    More devastating blows landed, raw, Einstein’s theories extending Newton’s laws to the very large universal scales, with trust, while quantum mechanics brought us, next, to the reach of the very tiniest of objects, there being no place left for us as subjects. God was nowhere to be seen, having vacated the arena.

    Yes, science has found that the universe operates just as it would without him—that evil spirits don’t lead to bad health, that brain imbalances can lead to sins (no Devil). Devil, Hell, the Bible, intercession, etc., are all gone now—He is undefinable—protected from the knowing—safe, away: yet claimable as the unseeable unknowable!


    R o u n d 7

    Confirmations were everywhere hatched, since scientific laws must ever match and predict the facts of what it mimics, for example, of the quantum mechanic. Although QM’s basis seems counterintuitive, it always works out just perfectly, for we employ and depend on it, in every way, on tech products based on it, every day. Science ever goes on to astronomical heights.

    The first supernova since 1572 appeared in some small galaxies nearby, a few, called the Magellanic Clouds, too… Though its radiation began a while back, we saw it alight upon us in the ‘now’—those immerse quantities of energy of a mighty star-stuff maelstrom. A Chilean astronomical technician, some bloke, stepped outside, perhaps to have a smoke, and, being observant, spotted it’s yoke! ah, he, a mere human standing around out under the dark starry sky, aground, detected it, upon this lucky time, for the large telescopes only take in the shine of the sky in small sections at a time. He went in and told of such unexpected, that a large burst of never-detected neutrinos was now to be expected.

    The astrophysicists called their colleagues, “C’mon, you all, answer, please”, those deep beneath the earth’s surface, in the United States, Japan, and Europe, and then said, “Look in your tanks, in revelry; you have already made a great discovery.” They were right on the dime, this time; each of the observatories had detected the signs of a few tens of neutrinos at about the same time. Consider the magnitude of this achievement, for they had tested all of what physics meant!

    They had predicted the events that go on in a star’s death throes—by using theories from nearly every part of physics: special and general relativity, quantum mechanics, fluid mechanics, thermodynamics, nuclear physics, atomic physics, and elementary particles. If any of these theories had in error flailed, the prediction of the neutrinos would have failed. Thus, the laws of nature that are known to us on earth everyday must have the same thrust hundreds of thousands of light years away; and, also, the same back in the day when that star had exploded so, hundreds of thousands of years ago. God had been pushed completely out of the ring, and so there were no more praises of him to sing.

    There were no immutable forms made, as is, that never change, as “bade”, for, there was no one miracle of life leaping into any living form, but rife with all of natural selection’s strife. Slightly dead chemicals became definitely alive chemicals, metabolizing into many particulars, this being nothing spectacular. We even have evidence of ancient algae from 3.5 billion years ago, in a sea, when liquid water was available and free. It still took more than two billion years for more complicated life to appear. There was no Garden of Eden.

    God’s become aloof; He’s begun to dissolve… He let the design gradually evolve over thirteen billion years into man’s plot, the endless universe a mere backdrop. He is the intelligent designer that is deducible from not understanding design, but, wait, He is of infinite design—so now I know that something had to make Him!
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by zinjanthropos
    I think this is going to end with God losing by a Technical Knockout.

    R o u n d 8
    The knockout.

    The three-degree blackbody radiation was found, the CMBR. It comes to us from all around; nonuniformities in the radiation were found at last, those that formed the galaxies of the past.

    The QM realm has been proved, of late, to be a fundamentally fuzzy state, virtual plus and minus states popping out at any old rate; that is, there are no real causes, for there are no hidden “becauses”. This realm is not quite a nothing, but a near ‘nothing’, nor some infinite regress of something. Virtual particles may take the helm or cancel back into the QM realm. If “nothingness” were exactly zero, not fizzy, then this ‘vacuum’ would not be vague and fuzzy. Thus, an absolute nothing cannot exist to be, for its very definition means that it cannot be, as then it could not even be there at all in reality. So, there is but the quantum jitter; there was only this ‘possibility’ forever. Oftentimes, the QM “virtual” particles magically spring into existence, and vanish quickly, although they can interact and remain, really. If not, they have to vanish so quickly that we cannot account for their reality. If we could see them, then the QM possibility would not be the vacuum fuzzy energy; but, if they were not there, as something, the vacuum would be exactly nothing… And so this certain school would violate the vague and fuzzy rule.

    None of these happenings are invisibly lame, such as those of the supernatural claims, for the fuzzy ‘nothing’ has many effects that we can compute and detect. So, is there is no cause, no purpose, unthunked! Does this make us go into a deep dark funk? No, for it is our glory that we are free to be, the making of life being our own responsibility. Now God was dead, gone, having counted out, having never been, whether within or without. The eternal, causeless ground-state could have never had any “create”, for there could be nothing prior such as that which is known as a Creator.

    Terrorists still go to war in his name; it’s all going astray—this notion fails; if I knew where the great designer stays, I’d question his mysterious(insane) ways. What, then, is left of this vanishing phantom? More features than I’ve listed have fallen—the extraordinary superstition’s kiss remains as but a shadow of a wish.
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  25. #24  
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    Quote Originally Posted by questor
    What, then, is left of this vanishing phantom?
    He now exists in a place where we can't find Him. He hasn't vanished, just became more reclusive. Theists have put Him there for His and their own protection.
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    True, for then they can have their cake and Edith, too.
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