Notices
Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: A big what-if on Abortion debate

  1. #1 A big what-if on Abortion debate 
    Forum Junior ArezList's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    229
    A twisted scenario comes to my mind today.
    Say abortion is illegal, a mother refuse to bear the fetus, but she has to because of the law enforcement. However, in the delivery room or after, she was dead because of maternal death e.g.(Obstetrical hemorrhage or followed by Deep vein thrombosis (DVT) both of which could occur AFTER delivery. ).


    Will that mean the government killed her? Why should the government weight the life of the fetus over that of the adult? A policy with the risk of killing people?

    What do you guys make of this?


    arezliszt.net
    Reply With Quote  
     

  2.  
     

  3. #2 Re: A big what-if on Abortion debate 
    Forum Ph.D. Raziell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    927
    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    Will that mean the government killed her?
    Only if physically forced.

    If not she deserved to die by making the choise to live in a rotten culture that prevents abortion and freedom of choise. Denying a woman abortion is cruelty and slavery.

    What she should have done was move to a better place in the world wich upholds human rights.


    A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it. - David Stevens
    Reply With Quote  
     

  4. #3 Re: A big what-if on Abortion debate 
    Universal Mind John Galt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    14,168
    Quote Originally Posted by Raziell
    What she should have done was move to a better place in the world wich upholds human rights.
    and if that better place will not admit her?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  5. #4  
    Forum Junior ArezList's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    229
    The new word I've learned from "Mary & Max"----" confuzzled" is what I feel about Raziell's reply.

    Only if physically forced.
    A Hobson's Choice?

    PS: to your signature, how about this:

    A lie is the truth when everyone believes it; the truth is a lie when nobody believes it.
    arezliszt.net
    Reply With Quote  
     

  6. #5  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Where is this hypothetical place that would not allow an abortion to save the life of the mother?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  7. #6  
    Forum Junior ArezList's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    229
    right...I should rephrase specifically into:

    The mother died because of Obstetrical hemorrhage or followed by Deep vein thrombosis (DVT) both of which could occur AFTER delivery.

    [/quote]
    arezliszt.net
    Reply With Quote  
     

  8. #7  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    What is your point? She might have died during the abortion as well.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  9. #8  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    What is your point? She might have died during the abortion as well.
    Except that the risk of death from a properly done abortion is significantly less than that of delivering a child, and the abortion is a choice not something forced on the mother.

    Also, as to your other question. For most of the developing world, support of abortion, even when medically necessary, is so low that it is difficult for someone to receive them. It is also illegal to perform an abortion under any circumstance in the Dominican Republic, Chile and a couple Central American countries.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  10. #9  
    Forum Junior ArezList's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    229
    To Harold14370:

    It's different, people could die because of a variety of facotrs: binge drinking, smoking, etc... But that has nothing to do with the state?

    In this case, it does. Dying from abortion is her own choice which she could choose not to, without considering punishment..
    arezliszt.net
    Reply With Quote  
     

  11. #10  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    A couple of points. First, if somebody believes the fetus is a human life, then it is a no-brainer. You are weighing the certainty of the baby's death against the remote possibility of the mother's death. Now, I understand you do not believe that, but that doesn't make you right and the other person wrong.

    Second, the mother had the choice not to become pregnant.

    Third, there are plenty of cases where a law could lead to somebody's death. Abortion laws are not unique or unusual. For example, if I were not permitted to carry a concealed weapon in a certain city, then I may not be able to defend myself and I could be killed.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  12. #11  
    Forum Junior ArezList's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    229
    Thanks a lot Harold14370

    A couple of points. First, if somebody believes the fetus is a human life, then it is a no-brainer. You are weighing the certainty of the baby's death against the remote possibility of the mother's death. Now, I understand you do not believe that, but that doesn't make you right and the other person wrong.
    Even if I believe a fetus is a life, you still have to explain why the law leans to one rather than the other.

    Second, the mother had the choice not to become pregnant.
    The anti-abo cliche.... It only make sense to me when we exclude victims of poor made condoms and granted them the right to file lawsuits to condom manufactures...

    Third, there are plenty of cases where a law could lead to somebody's death. Abortion laws are not unique or unusual. For example, if I were not permitted to carry a concealed weapon in a certain city, then I may not be able to defend myself and I could be killed.
    The latin word for this is "ignotum per ignotius "...Maybe...maybe that's why we are having the problems at the same time...and that's surely why we have people called "Michael Griffin."...period
    arezliszt.net
    Reply With Quote  
     

  13. #12  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    Even if I believe a fetus is a life, you still have to explain why the law leans to one rather than the other.
    No, I explained it. It is the certain death of the fetus in an abortion on one hand versus the remote possibility of a death of the mother during childbirth.
    [quote]Second, the mother had the choice not to become pregnant.

    The anti-abo cliche.... It only make sense to me when we exclude victims of poor made condoms and granted them the right to file lawsuits to condom manufactures...
    How often does something like that happen? Enough for you to worry about? For all practical purposes, pregnancy can be prevented, a lot easier than getting an abortion after the fact.

    The latin word for this is "ignotum per ignotius "...Maybe...maybe that's why we are having the problems at the same time...and that's surely why we have people called "Michael Griffin."...period
    I had to look that up. "Ignotum per ignotius " means you think I made an obscure analogy that nobody should be expected to understand. Try this one. The government makes a law allowing a certain amount of pollution to be emitted, and that pollution can result in a low risk of cancer. It is considered an acceptably low risk because of the benefits of the product being produced to the society as a whole. Perhaps the product itself saves lives in other ways. Nevertheless the pollution does result in a number of people dying.

    Who is Michael Griffin?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  14. #13  
    Forum Isotope
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Transient
    Posts
    2,914
    Quote Originally Posted by ArezList
    Third, there are plenty of cases where a law could lead to somebody's death. Abortion laws are not unique or unusual. For example, if I were not permitted to carry a concealed weapon in a certain city, then I may not be able to defend myself and I could be killed.
    The latin word for this is "ignotum per ignotius "...Maybe...maybe that's why we are having the problems at the same time...and that's surely why we have people called "Michael Griffin."...period
    Actually, it's a good analogy
    Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools, because they have to say something.
    -Plato

    Reply With Quote  
     

  15. #14  
    Forum Masters Degree Twit of wit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    553
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    The anti-abo cliche.... It only make sense to me when we exclude victims of poor made condoms and granted them the right to file lawsuits to condom manufactures...
    How often does something like that happen? Enough for you to worry about? For all practical purposes, pregnancy can be prevented, a lot easier than getting an abortion after the fact.
    [/quote]

    Please define "a lot easier".
    Reply With Quote  
     

  16. #15  
    Suspended
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    8,795
    Quote Originally Posted by Twit of wit
    Please define "a lot easier".
    Contraception involves things like using condoms, taking pills, abstaining from sex. An abortion is a medical procedure done in a hospital. Which do you suppose is easier?
    Reply With Quote  
     

  17. #16  
    Forum Masters Degree Twit of wit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    553
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    Quote Originally Posted by Twit of wit
    Please define "a lot easier".
    Contraception involves things like using condoms, taking pills, abstaining from sex. An abortion is a medical procedure done in a hospital. Which do you suppose is easier?
    It depends on circumstances. What about rape?
    Anyway, I don't see any reason to ban abortions.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  18. #17  
    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,444
    All sorts of scenarios come to mind. When we live in a society, we submit ourselves to its rules. For example:

    1. Someone is rushing a person to the hospital who has only five minutes to live without treatment. The driver puts on emergency flashers, speeds, runs red lights, beckons the police to follow, honks the horn, points to those blue "H" hospital signs, etc. The police pursue and ultimately stop them, but by the time the police figure out it's a life-and-death emergency, the passenger is dead. Did the police kill the passenger?

    2. A college security officer peers into a college room and sees one student unconscious on the floor and another student, obviously crazed, trying to slice his throat. The officer demands, "What are you doing?" and the crazed student looks up and quickly shouts, "I'm saving him!", and goes back to cutting the guy's throat. The officer yanks the assailant off the other student and handcuffs him, and calls for backup and an ambulance. The unconscious student dies from anaphylactic shock before EMTs can arrive. The "assailant" had been trying to perform an emergency tracheotomy. Did the officer kill the student?
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  19. #18  
    Forum Junior ArezList's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Posts
    229
    To jrmonroe: irrelevant..

    To H-: Michael Griffin is an antiabortionist who murder an abortion physician by a semi-auto pistol.
    arezliszt.net
    Reply With Quote  
     

  20. #19  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    The fact of the matter is that several million women die every year from backalley abortions, and this was a common event in the developed world prior to legalization of abortion. Women will seek out abortions no matter the legal consequences, and all making it illegal does is force them to seek them out in inappropriate, dangerous places. Those are the real deaths caused by antiabortion laws, not any women dying from giving birth.
    Reply With Quote  
     

  21. #20  
    Forum Professor jrmonroe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,444
    ArezList, it's still understood that we submit ourselves to society's rules.

    Quote Originally Posted by i_feel_tiredsleepy
    The fact of the matter is that several million women die every year from backalley abortions
    Sleepy, can you cite this statistic? The US government says there's almost 7 billion people in the world, and out of them, about 1.75 billion are females of child-bearing years (ages 14 through 49). Let's say for simplicity sake that it's 7 million deaths. That gives a ratio of 1 death per 250 women. Within a generation (25 years), 1 in 10 women will have died from back-alley abortions according to this statistic. This seems rather high.
    Grief is the price we pay for love. (CM Parkes) Our postillion has been struck by lightning. (Unknown) War is always the choice of the chosen who will not have to fight. (Bono) The years tell much what the days never knew. (RW Emerson) Reality is not always probable, or likely. (JL Borges)
    Reply With Quote  
     

  22. #21  
    Forum Cosmic Wizard i_feel_tiredsleepy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Montreal
    Posts
    2,256
    I made a mistake, the WHO found that about 20 million unsafe abortions are performed annually, and millions of women suffer from medical complications as a result. The death figure was 68 thousand annually. The Lancet found similar results.

    The WHO also found that abortion rates per number of pregnancies were higher in developing countries, or not significantly different, from those where it's legal. So, what we can conclude from this is that illegality of abortion causes more human deaths (if you want to call a fetus a human being).
    Reply With Quote  
     

  23. #22  
    Time Lord
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    5,328
    Quote Originally Posted by Harold14370
    pregnancy can be prevented
    You may yet hold the girl responsible, but I want to add that many abortions result after men refuse to "do right". And related hazy situations, where women have to please and trust the men in their lives. It is unrealistic to pretend women may always engage in protected sex on their own terms, then become pregnant at will after sober negotiation with a loving husband. But I'm sure you know real life is often complicated, and often not to the woman's advantage.

    Better just grant all unwanted pregnancies the ethical consideration of accidents.
    A pong by any other name is still a pong. -williampinn
    Reply With Quote  
     

Bookmarks
Bookmarks
Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •