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Thread: Do You Believe In God?

  1. #1 Do You Believe In God? 
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    Yes, that's the BIG question.
    Do you believe in god, of any form?
    Or do you believe in any other omnipresent and allmighty power?
    Please post your views with reasons.


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  3. #2  
    Forum Junior Cuete's Avatar
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    Yes...

    I don't agree with religion at all; but I belive in God as the source, mean and end of everything.


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    If coincidence can be held as a God... Then yes.
    I believe in Supreme Free Will and Coincidence...
    Machina multa minax minitatur maxima muris

    Carminis Iliaci libros consumpsit asellus. O Fatum Troiae! Aut ecus aut asinus!

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    i have to say i reject the idea.

    every human is born, will live for a short time and will perish into the abyss in this universe and in that cycle i see no evidence or need for a god in this proccess.

    if god is apart of the universe and created the universe then its fair to say that god is the universe itself and our quest gain an understanding of our place in the universe is simply a quest to give meaning to a life that has none.

    muddled statements uggh.
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  6. #5  
    Forum Freshman DesertFoxx's Avatar
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    Well as you see, Darwin's theory doesn't make sense. If everything was evolved from something, then how did the original thing come to being? The big bang doesn't even make sense, because all the nothingness was sitting around forever, everthing just makes sense with a god.
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    Not true... When I was in Germany I was watching this Japanese science show (I know, really random), that had English subtitles. Anyhow, they made an actual cell out of the oddest things. I think they had ammonia, potassium ... I don't remember well, but they put some massive amount of electricty and made a cell.
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  8. #7  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nima Rahnemoon
    Not true... When I was in Germany I was watching this Japanese science show (I know, really random), that had English subtitles. Anyhow, they made an actual cell out of the oddest things. I think they had ammonia, potassium ... I don't remember well, but they put some massive amount of electricty and made a cell.

    Okay, but then you still need to have the chemicals come from somewhere and something to create the electricity. You can't make somethnig from LITERALY nothing. The creation theory makes a lot more sense than the big bang. Seriously think about it, when was the last time you were just chillin at home and then sundenly there was something that came out of less than air?
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    To date, the Darwinian explanation along with its modern improvements provides us with the only viable explanation, though there may be "something else that is not yet thought of."

    Undeniably, a god or supreme deity cannot be excluded, but the sheer number of gods and deities that mankind has now and in the past makes pinning one or more down as the actual god of creation an impossible task, particularly since no god has ever been observed, nor is there any good evidence for one. A god can be assumed and speculated, but to suggest any specific deity really exists is unnecessary.

    There are those that suggest that whatever science can say about the universe doesn't matter, because a god could have caused it to be that way -invoking the secondary causality argument of Thomas Aquinas Discussion of secondary causality is thought-provoking, but for the critical-thinker –the reasoned-thinker- the thoughts that are provoked in such discussions often include who caused the causer? Indeed, an infinite chain of "causers" becomes apparent, suggesting not one god, but an infinite number of gods that must be present in the universe. And, in a universe populated with an infinite number of gods, should we not expect to see more of them than stars, which are finite in number? What use would such a universe have with mere humans and other life forms? Particularly if each of the infinite number of gods were equally omniscient and omnipotent.

    The logical conclusion that there is a god must also include that there are many gods, and that logic fails even for theologians. Dawkins' assertion, therefore, is the true, logical choice: there simply is no necessity for a god in the universe. For a universe that is capable of creating a god, is certainly capable of creating itself without one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by biohazard87
    Okay, but then you still need to have the chemicals come from somewhere and something to create the electricity. You can't make somethnig from LITERALY nothing. The creation theory makes a lot more sense than the big bang. Seriously think about it, when was the last time you were just chillin at home and then sundenly there was something that came out of less than air?
    that is only because you are completely misunderstanding the theory of the big bang, but that is understandable as many others make the same mistake. the big bang theory does not posit that the universe came from nothing. it does not say that before the big bang there was nothing. it says that all the energy of our universe was compacted into an infinitesimally dense point and that the pressures acting on this minute point caused it to burst outwards in rapid expansion, sending out energy which immediately began to form particles, then atoms and elements, leading to the formation of molecules and finally planets, stars and other celestial bodies.

    the creation theory only makes sense as a metaphor. the big bang theory also only makes sense as a metaphor, but the difference is that the latter relates a more accurate picture of reality. it all depends on your association to the meanings of the words being said.
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  11. #10  
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    Personally, no, I do not believe in the concept and am aethiest. Religion just doesn't strike me as believable. I respect people who believe in a religion, though, I'm not against it or anything.
    Science is organized knowledge; wisdom is organized life.
    -Immanuel Kant
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    Accident or planed?? It is the Question, : no doubt, but the Human mind is not capable of finding an answer at present, if ever? Recently on a forum it was asked if we used all of our Brain, I think not, but as we evolve so will our Brain and who knows what our Brain will be capable of then , at some time we may glimpse the truth.
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    I gave a question then, so you say the universe is extremley pressurized, right? How did it get pressurized? And how would planets all of a sudden be made by a "big bang", with oxygen, plants, and single celled organisms?
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  14. #13  
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    If there is a god then he/she/it also emerged from that little primordial massive speck of everything. The universe has been around at least 10 billion years longer than the Earth and 15 billion years before humans. Who knows what lifeforms have come and gone, or if any ever developed godlike ability or status.

    Can you make something from nothing? No. Can something always have been? Yes. So far, that's easier to believe. We have laws of nature so I wonder if the most fundamental rule of existence might be something as simple as 'something and nothing cannot co-exist' or 'it's impossible to have something and nowhere to put it'.

    Do I believe in God? How much of believing or theory is fiction? I need solid proof..... bibles and words or logic and reasoning have yet to accomplish this and will never succeed at it. I need the real thing, not a mystical thing, and until then I cannot believe. I do believe that it is possible however.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertFoxx
    I gave a question then, so you say the universe is extremley pressurized, right? How did it get pressurized? And how would planets all of a sudden be made by a "big bang", with oxygen, plants, and single celled organisms?
    Whole planets and stars didn't suddenly spring into existence, DesertFoxx. As the cloud of particles expanded, the reduced pressure allowed very simple elements to form (namely, hydrogen and helium). Their inherently chaotic movement spontaneously and inevitable created some areas of increased concentration, where the slightly greater gravitational attraction pulled other molecules in, and the constantly increasing gravity of the various clumps continued to pull more hydrogen in until the mass of all the clumped hydrogen was enough to start nuclear fusion, procucing helium. As some stars began to run out of hydrogen, they began fusing helium, and so on, the starving stars using heavier and heavier elements as fuel until they reached Iron. As (correct me if I'm wrong) iron is the most stable element, nuclearly speaking, further fusion to heavier elements was impossible under normal conditions. Some stars, however, started out with a mass large enough for them to reach a sort of stellar critical mass, so to speak. The huge gravity of these giant stars led them to go nova (I think that's the term), which provided the immense quantities of energy needed for the formation of heavier elements (Co,Ni, Cu, and the rest). The blast of the supernovas propelled these heavier elements out into the universe, where over time many of them collected in disks of dust and minute particles surrounding proto-stars. The same random, chaotic motion which led to the original formation of stars led to slight clumpings of the particles in the proto-planetary disk, which led to denser clumps, etc, until eventually planets and asteroids had formed. The gravity of the larger ones attracted gaseous matter in the disk to form atmospheres, with some planets having thin wispy atmospheres (Mars, for example), some having fairly dense atmospheres (Earth and Venus spring to mind), and others were dense enough to accumulate a massive atmosphere larger in volume than the core itself (gas giants).
    Keep in mind that I've gotten most of this from a fairly old textbook (1970 to 1990-ish; I'm not quite sure), so if anyone spots some errors I've made here, please feel free to point them out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nima Rahnemoon
    Not true... When I was in Germany I was watching this Japanese science show (I know, really random), that had English subtitles. Anyhow, they made an actual cell out of the oddest things. I think they had ammonia, potassium ... I don't remember well, but they put some massive amount of electricty and made a cell.
    I'll call 'bunk' on this.

    Someone may have assembled something exactly identical to a cell, but had it become 'alive', in almost any definition of the word, this story would be page one news for several weeks.
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  17. #16  
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    Yes, I believe in God. It's hard not to believe when I talk with Him on a daily basis.

    You folks can believe whatever makes you happy. I know who I know.
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  18. #17  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie
    Quote Originally Posted by Nima Rahnemoon
    Not true... When I was in Germany I was watching this Japanese science show (I know, really random), that had English subtitles. Anyhow, they made an actual cell out of the oddest things. I think they had ammonia, potassium ... I don't remember well, but they put some massive amount of electricty and made a cell.
    I'll call 'bunk' on this.

    Someone may have assembled something exactly identical to a cell, but had it become 'alive', in almost any definition of the word, this story would be page one news for several weeks.
    Redacted*
    Last edited by NimaRahnemoon; August 8th, 2013 at 12:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archie
    Yes, I believe in God. It's hard not to believe when I talk with Him on a daily basis.

    You folks can believe whatever makes you happy. I know who I know.
    You talk with him?? What about, do you use words or thoughts, not wishing to offend just curious
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyLennigan
    ,
    that is only because you are completely misunderstanding the theory of the big bang, but that is understandable as many others make the same mistake. the big bang theory does not posit that the universe came from nothing. it does not say that before the big bang there was nothing. it says that all the energy of our universe was compacted into an infinitesimally dense point and that the pressures acting on this minute point caused it to burst outwards in rapid expansion, sending out energy which immediately began to form particles, then atoms and elements, leading to the formation of molecules and finally planets, stars and other celestial bodies.

    the creation theory only makes sense as a metaphor. the big bang theory also only makes sense as a metaphor, but the difference is that the latter relates a more accurate picture of reality. it all depends on your association to the meanings of the words being said.

    Still, where did all that energy come from. At some point there had to be absolutely nothing. Right?
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    biohazard87[Still, where did all that energy come from. At some point there had to be absolutely nothing. Right?],
    I cant see that absolutely nothing could be correct, there may have always been something, continual creation?? how did nothing come into being
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  22. #21  
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    Quote Originally Posted by biohazard87
    Quote Originally Posted by RoyLennigan
    ,
    that is only because you are completely misunderstanding the theory of the big bang, but that is understandable as many others make the same mistake. the big bang theory does not posit that the universe came from nothing. it does not say that before the big bang there was nothing. it says that all the energy of our universe was compacted into an infinitesimally dense point and that the pressures acting on this minute point caused it to burst outwards in rapid expansion, sending out energy which immediately began to form particles, then atoms and elements, leading to the formation of molecules and finally planets, stars and other celestial bodies.

    the creation theory only makes sense as a metaphor. the big bang theory also only makes sense as a metaphor, but the difference is that the latter relates a more accurate picture of reality. it all depends on your association to the meanings of the words being said.

    Still, where did all that energy come from. At some point there had to be absolutely nothing. Right?
    There was absolutely nothing at some point at the start of everything, and there still is... in my oppinion... for everything we know of there is an equal and opposite other thing... like forces, numbers and charges ect... so somewhere out there there is stuff that's the opposite of us and in the grand scheme of things cancels us out, the universe is still nothing. It's like having 1 - 1. We all know that that is zero (nothing) but there are these ones (symbolizing everything and anti-everything) there too. So yeah.. everything = nothing
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    Captain_Anubis are you saying that minus one [-1] is nothing?
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  24. #23  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain_Anubis
    for everything we know of there is an equal and opposite other thing...
    Gravity??
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  25. #24  
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    i don't believe in god.. because god is more complicated than the big bang theory.

    because, what bang created god then?

    and if he's alive and in outer space and created us as his image... why does he need legs in outer space? and if he's on solid ground, we can reach him right? and if we can't, he can't reach us eiter..

    anyway.. it's way to complicated.. gimme the fusion of particles...

    hmm, was the bigbang theory before it exploded a huge mass, hot or cold? energy in or out?

    anyway... i'll leave the thinkin to you guys 8)
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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    I don't believe in god because I see no reason to. We don't have any scientific evidence at all.

    I've noticed alot of people arguing that a god must exist in order to have created matter/life. Specifically in ordre for the big bang to occur, a god must have created the mass/energy at that time. Basically a cause-and-effect argument. In that case, what caused god. You can say god has always been there, but in that case there is no reason to believe that matter/energy has not always been their.

    We can't disprove the idea of a god, but you also can't disprove that the earth is really a giant alien's ball (as were the other planets), which he was rotating around his head (the sun to us) which appears to us to be a bunch of incrediby hot oil. The point is, that normally we don't believe things that we don't have a good amount of evidence for. However it seems when religion is concerned many people (I'm not saying everyone), blindly follows whatever the sacred text they use says, and disbelieve whatever contradicts that, no matter how great the evidence.
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  27. #26  
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    and disbelieve whatever contradicts that, no matter how great the evidence.
    But nothing has contradicted the existance of God.
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    yeah.. but we "humans" have enough fantasy to make up someone like santaclaus, the easterbunny, the earth to be flat, center of the universe... BLABLA.. we all thought that...

    there is no way we can prove there is NO god, because to do that we'll have to go by all dimensions, all timeframes, all space and all of eternity..

    it's not possible to dissaprove..

    but if we see no duck, we hear no duck, we feel no duck.. it's possibly NOT a duck..

    cheers
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  29. #28  
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    But nothing has contradicted the existance of God.
    Ther is no evidence to say he existed in the first place
    It's hard to soar like an eagle when your flying with turkeys
    It's hard to be humble when your as great as I am.
    The world changes so fast, you couldn't be wrong all the time even if you tried
    Judging by the way some church members live, they need fire insurance
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  30. #29  
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostaquarium
    nothing has contradicted the existance of God.
    This is a false statement. There are many, many things that contradict the existence of god. You have taken a highy subjective statement, one that is both completely valid and perhaps quite true when analyzed from your own subjective position, and stated it in an objective manner, which is completely untrue and inappropriate. How can you speak for the entire world and believe that since you find nothing to contradict the existence of god that no one else can believe differently?
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  31. #30  
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    I agree with hermes
    It's hard to soar like an eagle when your flying with turkeys
    It's hard to be humble when your as great as I am.
    The world changes so fast, you couldn't be wrong all the time even if you tried
    Judging by the way some church members live, they need fire insurance
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  32. #31  
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    I, as I'm sure most others do too, find it a most grievous waste of time trying to prove negatives.

    Hermes owes me exactly 1 million dollars.
    .
    .
    .
    Cogito, ergo doleo.

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    I don't know if others agree with me but rather than believing that something almighty exists and constantly turning to it for support, we might just as well believe in ourselves and fight for the things that we want.
    Maybe my views will change one day, maybe i'm all too naive and conceited about the powers of human and what we can do but as of now, the smooth- paved path of my life has led me to believe that every problem can be solved by humans.

    haha i sound so angsty
    cause tramps like us, baby, we were born to run
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    i believe in god because my parents did. this is the reason for most of us. if my parents had told me god doesnt exist that is all bull i probly would have believed that for the rest of my life.
    I don't suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it

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    Do I believe in God?
    If you mean an immortal old guy with a beard that sent his Son or representatives down to earth to put us right, then no.
    However if you mean did it [the universe-multiverse-all that is] just happen or was it created, then perhaps so. I personally relate more to nature being a form of creator, Nature abhors a vacuum, so at some time if there was nothing would it not be natural for it to become something???
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  36. #35  
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    i believe that man created a concept of good and evil.
    personified these ideas into something that was other than man.
    and took the religion surrounding them waaay too literally.
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  37. #36  
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    I don't believe in god(s).

    If someone comes up with an idea that doesn't sound remotely logical to me, I will not believe it untill there is substantial evidence. In the case of the existence of god(s) there is, to my judgement, no such evidence at all.
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    for who post a reply saying what's the role of the God in this process..

    well,.. can a machine gathering itself without any help,..and just form a maching by itself?? or just it need an engineer to make it?..
    it's largely clear that all this great fantastic and also HIGHLY ORGANISED Universe can't run like this without any great source of the one and no one else who create it..

    even ure mind should bring u to think like this,..how can all this phenomena and usual acts which happend every day occure with high acuurracy and systematically,..and we jus say there is no god!! how come this could be?!!
    u have a mind to think!
    "Nothing can be accepted in this world, if it did not pass the mathematical proof."

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    Argument from design - cute but doesnt really work.
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  40. #39  
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    Quote Originally Posted by river_rat
    Argument from design - cute but doesnt really work.
    why not?
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    Have you read the blind watchmaker by Dawkins?

    The whole argument is explained better here - http://skepdic.com/design.html
    As is often the case with technical subjects we are presented with an unfortunate choice: an explanation that is accurate but incomprehensible, or comprehensible but wrong.
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  42. #41  
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    Quote Originally Posted by lostaquarium
    But nothing has contradicted the existance of God.
    Nothing has contradicted the existence of invisible leprachauns that live in the walls, but that's no reason to believe that they're there.
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    We know for sure that there is a universe. We don't know for sure that there is a God. I'd sooner accept that the universe doesn't need a definable cause before accepting a God that doesn't need one. At least we KNOW that the universe exists in the first place. The Big Bang doesn't address WHY there is a universe. It is merely a description of the early universe.
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  44. #43  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino
    Nothing has contradicted the existence of invisible leprachauns that live in the walls, but that's no reason to believe that they're there.
    How then do you account for the disappearance of the milk and cookies? I think you'll have to agree that constitutes prima facie evidence.
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    So that’s what happened to them, and I blamed the pink Elephants
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  46. #45  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    How then do you account for the disappearance of the milk and cookies?
    Santa Claus, obviously
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  47. #46 GOD? Does his existence matter? 
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    Humans have survived for several thousands of years without the help of GOD, inspite of hardships we are facing such as natural calamities. I personally feel it doesn't matter whether he exists or not! Keep doing your work.
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    I dont know if there's a god or not, I probably will never know while Im alive. If there is one I might find out in the afterlife, if there isnt one I'll never realize it after being dead.

    I dont know either way, but by observation I have a huntch there isnt any.

    One thing I do beleive is that all humans that have claimed to speak in god's name or to have books are full of it.

    I dont beleive there is any god that conforms to what the overwelming majority of religions describe.

    Historically it seams to be a means for a few(machiavelian) humans to control the many(naive) humans.

    Why yes, I am the king, toil in fields for me and give me your chicken and bread, toil to build my castle and weave my fine clothes. What the heck for you say? God said Im king, there you go. Here, thats the book god gave me, it clearly states here that the abject poverty caused by you working for me instead of for yourselves will be rewarded in the afterlife.
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  49. #48 are we intelligent? 
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    What requires more intelligence, to discover the laws of the universe,
    or to put the laws in place?
    If humans design a computer they are credited with intelligence.
    No one can design anything like the brain. Who designed the brain?
    If you say it evolved under the direction of inanimate matter, then
    you are implying matter has more intelligence than humans.
    Who will agree to that?
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  50. #49 Re: are we intelligent? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    If you say it evolved under the direction of inanimate matter, then
    you are implying matter has more intelligence than humans.
    Who will agree to that?
    I do. 'Matter' has created something which human intelligence cannot create. But I wouldn't call the delicate processes of evolution 'intelligence'. Something can be created without anyone knowing what's going on. If a lake turns dry very slowly then you would call the first fish to develop lungs a very 'intelligent' fish. But it isn't, it's just a very lucky fish with the right genetic mutations. Evolution is all about luck combined with a harsh fight for survival, and all at a huge scale. No intelligence needed.
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    No one person designed the brain; It was a collective effort involving all of our ancestors and their interactions with their environment. In other words, the brain evolved. The brain did not just evolve under the influence of inanimate matter, but also matter contained in living organisms.
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  52. #51 Re: are we intelligent? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    No one can design anything like the brain. Who designed the brain?
    If you say it evolved under the direction of inanimate matter, then you are implying matter has more intelligence than humans. Who will agree to that?
    You are completely incorrect. You are completely qualified to infer what you wish from the words of others, but you are way off base if you try to lay the blame for your inference on others and claim that they implied this extremely non-scientific inference of yours.

    Furthermore, if you want to talk about implication, your use of the word "who" implies that you consider the designer to be a person. Who will agree to that?
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  53. #52 Re: are we intelligent? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes
    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    No one can design anything like the brain. ......you are implying matter has more intelligence than humans.
    You are completely incorrect. You are completely qualified to infer what you wish from the words of others, but you are way off base if you try to lay the blame for your inference on others and claim that they implied this extremely non-scientific inference of yours.
    Explicitly and accurately stated.
    The design argument has been refuted more times than Demi Moore has appeared naked in a film because the role demanded it.
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  54. #53 Re: are we intelligent? 
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes
    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    No one can design anything like the brain. Who designed the brain?
    If you say it evolved under the direction of inanimate matter, then you are implying matter has more intelligence than humans. Who will agree to that?
    You are completely incorrect.
    he is indeed incorrect, because matter is what our brain is made of. and the brain was a result of inanimate matter, in a way. the first cell was a result of a random combination of matter. I bet it happened many times before a random combination of matter made the cell able to reproduce. that evolved, and over many years the human brain took shape.
    I don't suffer from insanity, i enjoy every minute of it

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    There is nothing in the post regarding blame.
    You missed the point.
    If more complex objects exist in the natural world than what human
    intelligence can design, then human intelligence loses its value.
    This hopefully is better stated than the first post.
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    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    You missed the point.
    If more complex objects exist in the natural world than what human intelligence can design, then human intelligence loses its value.
    This hopefully is better stated than the first post.
    This is very clear. You believe that human intelligence has lost its value.
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  57. #56  
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    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    If more complex objects exist in the natural world than what human intelligence can design, then human intelligence loses its value.
    This is an incredible statement. Literally.

    You presume the function of intelligence is solely to create complexity.
    You reject the notion that there may be levels of complexity.
    You believe that anything object or entity less complex than the most complex imaginable is of no value.
    By implication you feel only a single work of art is of any value, and that is the work of art that is superior to all others, which are thus rendered valueless.

    A truly incredible set of beliefs requiring no criticism, but simply an amused and dismissive shake of the head.
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  58. #57  
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    i dont belive in a god, its illogical and against all laws of physic
    the only god over my life is me, and me alone.
    the day i begin beliving in a god or any thing superstitius is when ive conquered the entire universe. because basacly then i am the god ^_^
    but back to thepoint, the point is that wont happen

    i can bet that if u luanch a nuclear missle towad any ones city on this planet ur god wont help. if i torture u worse than anyone has he wont help you. if i kill people he wont help them. How do i know that? because people have suffered before and he ahvent helped. If he exists he must be a increadible sadistic evil narcissistic maniac whos biggest enjoyment is the suffering and missery of other biengs.

    The closest thing we know of to a god, is a intelligent bieng. We are one so we humans are the closest known to a god. Give us time and we will be the gods of this universe. and maybe the entire multiverse. If te universe allows we will be able to manipulate it to our will, we will be able to create universes. form them to our desire. Give them the spark of life. All powerfull gods.

    with an infinite amount of universes, with random laws of physics, there must be 1 universe atleast capable to support life as we know it. once those laws are correct there is no need for anything, the nature will do the work itself. the gathering of matter, fussion of it, interaction everything will go like a clock. it just ticks on with out any help. and life is selfsustaining aswell, once its gears begin rolling they will never stop until the ultimate stop. and becuase of this worlds imperfection the gears of life will change as time passes. Evolution accure. there is no need for that bastard.

    The brain comes to exist because its required for every living bieng to have a CPU of somekinda. cells have their DNA, higher biengs cant have everything coded in their DNA so every higher lifeform in this universe will have a brain of somekinda. its inevdible.
    Something like a god only makes things more complicated. If u want to see evolution in real life u just need to take a bacteria sample and expose them to toxins. they´ll die but some survives. Or u can take a big tank, alot of chemicals, have some energy source and expose this mixture of chemicals for the energy and the chemicals alone will go throu a chemical evolution. the most stable survives. the one who are ablet o replicates gets most off etc.
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  59. #58 human vs matter 
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    The written word does not always express a persons thoughts clearly, but we keep on trying.
    Given a group of medical research people who devote their lives to the development of a cure for a life threatening disease. If inanimate matter is superior to the thinking, reasoning human being, and has intelligence (in any form), why didn't it produce practical simple things like tables and chairs? Why didn't it produce vaccines, pest resistant crops, etc. Why does it depend on human thinking to solve the problems of the world?
    Cancer is a result of genetic mutation, but so far there has not been any type that was determined to be beneficial to the patient. Read up on mutations (plant, animal and human) and discover that in general they are destructive or deforming.
    Physics has a good understanding of (low level) matter from the molecular level down to the fundamental particles and the forces/laws that govern their behavior. There is no capacity for intelligence at these levels. Only at the cellular level (DNA, neural, etc.) do you find the capacity for intelligence. The question then is, how the lower level elements get organized to the cellular level. Real world experiments show that low level matter behaves in a predictable consistent manner. Essential plant characteristics and behavior are determined by the seeds that spawn them. Animal characteristics and their programmed behavior is essentially determined by genetics. The human form stands in contrast to all the previous forms because it has free will. It can manipulate its world to accomplish a desired purpose (beyond animal behavior). It can act contrary to natural laws. It can build upon its knowledge and extend ideas into new ones. The intelligence capacity of the human vs. matter is the point being made.
    If you were in a court of law convicted of a crime, and knew you are innocent, would you want the verdict to be
    decided by a jury or the flip of a coin?
    As to the grossly distorted interpretation of my last post...

    "You presume the function of intelligence is solely to create complexity."
    The person responding did the presuming. The sole function was not discussed.

    "You reject the notion that there may be levels of complexity."
    If that were true, I could not refer to matter (a general form) and the brain (a highly specialized form).

    "You believe that anything object or entity less complex than the most complex imaginable is of no value. "
    The phrase was 'less value' not 'no value'. There is a difference.
    I would never presume to know what someone believes based on a short post in a forum.

    "By implication you feel only a single work of art is of any value, and that is the work of art that is superior to all others, which are thus rendered valueless. "
    The person responding said that, I did not, and would not because it doesn't make sense.
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  60. #59 Re: human vs matter 
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    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    As to the grossly distorted interpretation of my last post...
    If it was grossly distorted it was because you expressed yourself so badly.

    It is very difficult to interpret your statement:

    If more complex objects exist in the natural world than what human intelligence can design, then human intelligence loses its value.

    in any way other than how I did. Perhaps, therefore, you wish to retract the statement. Or explain how its absolute tones are commensurate with your subsequent denials.
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  61. #60 Re: human vs matter 
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    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    Animal characteristics and their programmed behavior is essentially determined by genetics.
    But much of animal behaviour is not programmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    The human form stands in contrast to all the previous forms because it has free will.
    Prove it.
    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    It can act contrary to natural laws.
    Cite a single instance.
    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    It can build upon its knowledge and extend ideas into new ones. .
    As can several animals.
    Quote Originally Posted by phyti
    The intelligence capacity of the human vs. matter is the point being made.
    If you were in a court of law convicted of a crime, and knew you are innocent, would you want the verdict to be
    decided by a jury or the flip of a coin?
    .
    It would depend upon the nature of the crime, the character of the evidence, the quality of the prosecution and defence cases, and the make up of the jury.
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  62. #61  
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    we cant go against the lwas of physics,. thats nonsense. we are goveremed by it and allways will be.

    The human form stands in contrast to all the previous forms because it has free will.
    we humans are no different from animals, we have just evolved a brain that gives us a larger degree of freedom to do what we want. if u look on the entire animal kingdom there is nothing special we humans have, exept our technology.
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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    I see non-lineair systems and their staggering beauty. And I see human shortcomings compensated by idears like 'god'.
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    "I've believed in God ever since a blade of grass told me so."
    - Bambi & Godzilla
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  65. #64  
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    YES!!!
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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    An atheist is just wrong to say God doesn't exist. And the reason is : no human being has the "infinite intelligence quotien" to know an infinite science. Believing in God means you have no choice as a human but to believe in Him. A "limited intelligence quotien" for a modest answer.


    A religious fanatic is just wrong to say science doesn't matter. And the reason is: no human being would have been able to read the Bible or any other divine document if science didn't bring "writting" and "reading".
    A "limited emotional quotien" for a modest answer.



    "Religion is science of mystery. Science is religion of the known."
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    alex i disagree, its not wrong to say god dont exist becuase he doesnt. if he did we would be able to detect it someone, if he cant bed etected then he dont belong to this realm of existens andthere for dont exist here
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  68. #67  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    alex i disagree, its not wrong to say god dont exist becuase he doesnt. if he did we would be able to detect it someone, if he cant bed etected then he dont belong to this realm of existens andthere for dont exist here
    If god does not exist, then why do you refer to it as he? Anyway, I am sure that you realize that many people do not think much of this claim.
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  69. #68  
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    a belief in whether god exists is irrelevant as to whether god actually does exist, physically as opposed to metaphorically. (although i guess you can believe/disbelieve either)

    it doesn't take an infinite knowlege to know that mankind can't prove either claim. existing or not its still a believe that i don't hold.
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    i refer to that as he becuase it nwould be consider rude to call it jack ass, *beep* ass, mother*beep*er, imaginary friend etc
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    the people in white coats say we evolved from apes. But I ask you this , Can an ape invent a light bulb can it use a computer or can it read ,write ,make fire ? apes are like us so what about the rest of the animals can they do the above? Do they have the capability sacrifice its life for another? that primarly i think Separates us from animals

    God is real
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    Do they have the capability sacrifice its life for another?
    yes, look at ants. and all other social animals

    Can an ape invent a light bulb can it use a computer or can it read ,write ,make fire ?
    nope, becuase their evolutionary path enver demanded a brain as flexible as our. We never evolved strong and fast, we took brain power instant.

    the people in white coats say we evolved from apes.
    they are damn right unlike the bible whoa re damn wrong
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  73. #72  
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheThinker
    the people in white coats say we evolved from apes. But I ask you this , Can an ape invent a light bulb can it use a computer or can it read ,write ,make fire ? apes are like us so what about the rest of the animals can they do the above? Do they have the capability sacrifice its life for another? that primarly i think Separates us from animals

    God is real
    Actually an ape CAN invent a light bulb. One did, in fact. Apes can also use computers, read, write, and make fire. Since you know, humans ARE apes.
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  74. #73  
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    But ignoring that, I still don't see how you are making your point. Yes there are things about humans which are distinct from other animals - but how exactly is that evidence for God? Or was your post unrelated to your final comment that God is real for some reason?
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  75. #74  
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    Pardon me for not reading all the posts, as I may have missed something, but how does our ability to make lightbulbs assert the existence of God?
    <i8b4uUnderground> d-_-b
    <BonyNoMore> how u make that inverted b?
    <BonyNoMore> wait
    <BonyNoMore> never mind
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  76. #75  
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    Well, duh, God said "let there be light" and we are made in God's image therefore since we created light, that's proof of God.
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  77. #76  
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    hehehe

    for fun, who here, who are christian, belives the bible is the word of god and shgould be followed by the word`?
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  78. #77  
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    God is the idea for everything we can not get in our lifetime. That's the whole idea to it. Another way to think of it is brainwashing. Others just walk by and think of it as the answer to everything. Others just follow what they think is right

    What kind of believer are you, "The Following Sheep", "The Answerist", "The Dreamer", or "The Puppet"?

    don't call me anything, because if you believe so, "god" did gave us the matter of free will.
    Growing up, i marveled at star-trek's science, and ignored the perfect society. Now, i try to ignore their science, and marvel at the society.

    Imagine, being able to create matter out of thin air, and not coming up with using drones for boarding hostile ships. Or using drones to defend your own ship. Heck, using drones to block energy attacks, counterattack or for surveillance. Unless, of course, they are nano-machines in your blood, which is a billion times more complex..
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  79. #78  
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    I beleive God created the universe

    I do not beleive that God will decide whether I will succeed in what I do.
    Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience
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  80. #79  
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    who created god?
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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  81. #80  
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    We did.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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  82. #81  
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    so he created the univerwse wich created us wich created him and back to square one?



    but if you mean like a created imaginary friend then i agree
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  83. #82  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    so he created the univerwse wich created us wich created him and back to square one?

    What you do you find difficult to grasp about this possibility?
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  84. #83  
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    chicken or the egg

    but there is also the chronological order of
    universe is born
    stars is formed
    planets is formed
    life comes
    life become multicellular
    dinosaurs die out
    we evolve

    the thing isnt in a circular order, its a line order where we are the last, either didnt god created the universe or we didnt create him
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  85. #84  
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    You are assuming that time cannot be recursive. Given our current limited knowledge of the character and origin of the Universe that is quite a large assumption.
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    this assumption is pretty big yes, but if this universe is in a higher dimensions and that dimension doesnt have a line-time it would be chaos. a continues loop of everything bieng repeated over and over again, of course this is the assumption of normal logic, wich might not work entirely there. or maybe not for a buck either
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  87. #86  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelos
    so he created the univerwse wich created us wich created him and back to square one?

    What you do you find difficult to grasp about this possibility?
    How exactly can man, in a real sense, actually create God? The concept of God sure, but how in reality can man create God? Further - I am usually hesitant to talk about causality in reference to things like God, or the universe as a whole because you have to be very careful, but how exactly can there be man before there even is a God, if God created it all?
    I'm sure time can do all kinds of goofy things but this seems a little extreme to consider a possibility.
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    I think this concept is hard for you to grasp because you are thinking of God as a material being that must appear at some point in time to have been 'created'.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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    The problem I have is not just one of causality, but how can man create something that exists beyond the boundaries of the universe in which we are confined? God traditionally has far more (or infinite)power, far more (or infinite) knowledge, and exists outside of time and outside of our universe. Beyond the fact that there's no evidence for his existence, to speculate that man can "create" one in a real sense seems even more outlandish.
    The "concept" is grapsed just fine, but a reason to consider it more than nonsense is what eludes me.
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    You see what I mean. "evidence of his existence". Interesting phrase. What constitutes existance? Using the word "his", to me, implies that God is in someway like man. I am not saying that God isn't like man. Maybe your idea of man is not the true idea of man. Afterall, aren't we all just a bunch of charges randomly (key word) interacting with eachother. Evidence. Hmm... I see lots of evidence but, that is me.
    Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only realize the truth. There is no spoon. Then you'll see that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself. -Spoon Boy
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    That there's no evidence for God to exist isn't the major point in this discussion. Even granting that he does exist, I fail to see a reason to consider some bizarre notion that we created him.
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    Sorry if someone's mentioned any of this before, i was too lazy to read all the other posts.
    I'm agnostic. Your poll doesn't allow me to express my true opinion (the true purpose of any opinion poll) and so i shall abstain.
    I like to think of myself as logical. Or at least more logical than many humans. And i take it that the prime definition of a God is that of creator. You may disagree, but that's what i think of as a God. As Spinoza proved, nothing - including God - can be both inside and outside of the universe. To be partially inside the universe is to be wholly within it. And of course, God would have had to have created the entire universe if he created any of it. Since God cannot have created himself, this means he must be outside of the universe... if anywhere. And this means, by Spinoza's proof, that God cannot influence anything within the universe.
    So basically, i don't know of any way to totally proove the non-existance of God. But it is very easy to logically disprove the anthropomorphic projections of God as a participating entity.
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  93. #92  
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    if thats logical then i dont want to know whats illogical is.
    Sounds more emotions based. God(s) ideas are often based on no matter what emotions. The desire to want a higher bieng, the desire for a purpose, the desire to know, the desire have power etc. Its all emotions

    pure logic person who goes outside emotions dont need any of those a god gives. he/she is happy anyhow then
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    I know i missed out a lot of steps there. It's a long argument written out in full. So if you tell me which bits specifically don't appear logical then i'll try to explain them more clearly.
    I don't think i'm being at all emotional there. But i'm certainly not ruling out the posibility that i have made mistakes in my reasoning. And there's a chance that we have differing ideas of how god is defined which could explain your view of my arguments too.
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    What about this part?
    nothing - including God - can be both inside and outside of the universe. To be partially inside the universe is to be wholly within it.
    Now, I don't believe in God, but if he does exist I'd think he could both exist outside of the universe, yet still affect the universe in whatever manner he sees fit. Why can't he, and how exactly did Spinoza *prove* it?
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    OK. This is going to be limited mainly by my memory (i got taught it in high school Religious Studies about 6 years ago) and also by my understanding of it. But i shall try nonetheless. And try to think outside of the typical ideas of god as portrayed by major religions.

    Right... here goes:

    We take god to be the creator of the entire universe and everything in it. And he cannot have created himself - i'm sorry to say that i don't know any proof of that on further thought, that's just an assumption for now.

    So he must have originally at least been outside of the universe. With me so far?

    Now, to influence events within the universe he must become at least partly within the universe. That is to say, you cannot have an effect without a cause (with the possible exception of quantum mechanics which seems to be random) and that cause must be linked in some way to that which it is to effect (if that makes any kind of sense). For example electrostatic repulsion of electrons from one another is linked by photons. So he must be at least partly in the universe.

    But the part of him which is inside must be connected to the part which is outside, otherwise they become seperate entities. And if you are inside the universe partially then you must be wholly inside of it.

    My head's really starting to hurt now... i'll soldier on.

    This is because something outside of the universe is also outside of time (hence not truly immortal, but that's a different issue). So to be partially inside and partially outside the universe it must be partially inside and partially outside of time.

    Arrrgh!! I know this makes sense... but i can't quite find the words to describe it all. I'm going to have to go away an think about this. Or possibly find an explanation somewhere on the net. Then i'll come back to you. Sorry bout this.
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  97. #96  
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacques
    I know i missed out a lot of steps there. It's a long argument written out in full. So if you tell me which bits specifically don't appear logical then i'll try to explain them more clearly.
    I don't think i'm being at all emotional there. But i'm certainly not ruling out the posibility that i have made mistakes in my reasoning. And there's a chance that we have differing ideas of how god is defined which could explain your view of my arguments too.
    im going to siimplify it as much as possible, god isnt logical. people who decied to belive in a god dont think logical but emotional
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

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    I'd agree partially with zelos, because in the past couple of years I have moved from complete emotional thinking, to include logic. But logic has simply stengthend my beleifs. And if I were to think completely logically(studying the information), I'd still be religious. Muslim by the way.
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    you think emotional but tries to hide it behind "logic"
    I am zelos. Destroyer of planets, exterminator of life, conquerer of worlds. I have come to rule this uiniverse. And there is nothing u pathetic biengs can do to stop me

    On the eighth day Zelos said: 'Let there be darkness,' and the light was never again seen.

    The king of posting
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  100. #99  
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    bah?
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    starry_eyed_guy - I beleive God created the universe
    Zelos - who created god?
    DaBOB - We did.

    The point i would like to make about the confusion over these quotes is there are 3 different people with different opinions, an atheist can say that humans created "god" just as humans created gandalf from lord of the rings, this doesn't mean humans created the "god" that people believe created humans.

    I hope this clears things up for anyone else reading.

    Personally i don't believe in "god" as a being, i am with alot of the people on here that need proof to believe in something, but when it comes down to it we have to believe the proof for it to be proof, for example i have not conducted every experiment ever recorded but i believe i would get the same results if i did.

    The catholic bible has too many contradictions that show whoever wrote it was either not intelligent enough to know what they were writing or were simply lying, maybe this is why i have chosen science to believe in.

    The only thing i can say for certain is nothing is impossible, all we have is belief.
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